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Anatomy of a Hack

Tiberius_Fel writes "Informit.com is running an extensive article about the anatomy of a hack against a sample network. It's an excerpt from a book titled Protect Your Windows Network: From Perimeter to Data. Even though it makes references to Windows, the techniques can be applied to other operating systems fairly easily." From the article: "Although attacking networks can be fun and informative--not to mention illegal if you do not have all the proper permissions--the fact remains that the vast majority of us do not need to know how to do so. Frankly, becoming a good penetration tester (pen tester) takes more than a week-long class. It takes commitment, dedication, intuition, and technical savvy, not to mention a blatant disregard for the rules and the right way to do things."

98 comments

  1. How to protect your Windows Network by casings · · Score: 4, Funny

    Shut it off.

    1. Re:How to protect your Windows Network by Cecil · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, you'd be +1 Funny. Some people have no sense of humour.

    2. Re:How to protect your Windows Network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protect Your Windows Network: From Perimeter to Data.

      Simple...run GNU/Linux.

  2. i wonder.... by azbrdhntr · · Score: 0

    will it spwan more script kiddies?

    --
    I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
  3. For Some, it just isn't worth it. by Quentusrex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For all too many business owners and managers out there it just isn't worth it for them to learn to secure computers. They have enough trouble learning and keeping up with the business they have. Normally it isn't until they are breached that they realize that security is a need.

    But that's what America is for. They need something, but don't have the time to do it. So you learn how to provide for their need, and sell it to them.

    1. Re:For Some, it just isn't worth it. by linsys · · Score: 2, Informative

      Isn't this the truth...

      While working for a fortune 500 company who will remain anonymous, I "handled" security and disaster recovery for the Unix team, after September 11th, I had a new title, was flying to the sunguard site in phili every 3 months for testing and had close to an unlimited budget to make sure we where safe from hackers, terrorists, could handle a major disaster etc..

      It's very unfortunate that companies don't see the need for security and disaster recovery (which by the way go hand in hand) untill either the world trade center gets attacked or the company it's self gets attacked.

    2. Re:For Some, it just isn't worth it. by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From the summary "becoming a good penetration tester (pen tester) takes more than a week-long class"

      Using the few thousand business and government networks I've seen over many years, about 99% of them could be cracked very quickly by anyone with half a clue. What's more, in the majority of cases, the technical people involved (either in-house or consultants) pretty much all knew that.

      It may take more than a week to become a good pen tester because that involves a more comprehensive look at finding ALL the vulnerabilities and providing priorities and instructions on fixing them, but it sure doesn't take that long to learn enough to crack most network security.

      The most common network used to be completely un-hardened hosts running multiple insecure applications on unsegmented networks with multiple unmonitored internet connections.

      About the only improvement in the "average" network nowadays is that a firewall or at least NAT device is generally found on the internet facing edges of that insecure network and not much more.

      Sure, I've worked for large ecommerce companies where we had better security than most banks (at least according to our regular third-party security auditors), but the vast majority of networks out there are either small to medium businesses run by managers with no clue and less inclination to spend money on security, or large companies and government agencies where no one knows what's going on enough to close all the gaps.

      Especially government agencies. A friend worked as a security consultant for a cabinet level agency that ran for years with all the firewalls in simple routing mode because one of the high level bureacrats decided it simplified things (you know, no pesky security in the way) and their IDS would be good enough security by itself. If you've seen most government contracted IDS, you know how much of a joke that is.

      It's routine at some of the agencies I did consulting work for to have all the employees in the office using the same username and password. Of course, the password being "password" made it easy for them all to remember and happy to give it out to any outside who they thought might need it.

      Just this last saturday I listened to someone in the park on their mobile phone tell their customer that their company email password was "password" so that the customer could check their email for a document they wanted.

      Now with widespread unsecured wireless network use showing up all over the place..... ahhhh... the lack of security is too much to contemplate! At least you used to have to be able to somewhat guess an IP range if you wanted to target a specific office. Now people can generally just park nearby and watch all the packets go past.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    3. Re:For Some, it just isn't worth it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. All too often, the sysadmins, et al., know what the (potential) problems are. Unfortunately, often we spend too much time just trying to keep up with the assembly line of work that management is asking for. This problem is compounded at larger client sites where administration decisions are made (or not made) by consensus. I recall too many times making recommendations for hardening security (simple things like firewall configuration!) and getting shot down because none of the other admins wants to bother with it. After a few times, you just give up and if the system is compromised, you just hope that you've moved on by then.

  4. hey beavis! by sycotic · · Score: 5, Funny

    heh heh heh, he said "penetration testing", heh heh heh

    --
    -- If I were a fish, I'd be wet
    1. Re:hey beavis! by daxomatic · · Score: 1

      hu huh, Shut up butt-head, ill kick your ass

  5. Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by haakondahl · · Score: 1, Informative
    --
    Don't trust anyone under thirty.
    1. Re:Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by sycotic · · Score: 1

      weird, I get "host not found" ...

      --
      -- If I were a fish, I'd be wet
    2. Re:Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by vidarlo · · Score: 1

      Ehh, that link was dead. I guess it was a hoax... Phishbait sounds smells somewhat fishy...

    3. Re:Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by infonography · · Score: 2, Informative
      Oh, let me mirror it Here

      Please don't download any of the MP3 files you find there.

      Note to Newbies, On the whole don't trust any mirror you find on slashdot that's not somebody like Mirrordot, Google, or the like. You may find yourself at goatse . cx

      --
      Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
    4. Re:Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really liked your lemonparty images, the were all over your d: drive

    5. Re:Already Slashdotted, but I'm mirroring it here: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I clicked on the link and got goatse.cx
      Crazy.

  6. CYA by Hungus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have done my fair share of security work and with regards to the blurbs "not to mention a blatant disregard for the rules and the right way to do things" I can say that one rule to never violate is always have a lawyer go over the contract and make certain the customer signs it before you do anything. Further is is a good thing to record all your activities on a black box while testing the system.

    --
    Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
  7. Performance Anxiety by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    "Frankly, becoming a good penetration tester (pen tester) takes more than a week-long class. It takes commitment, dedication, intuition, and technical savvy, not to mention a blatant disregard for the rules and the right way to do things.""

    Man! Things were so much easier back in my day. Just do what my friends did.

    1. Re:Performance Anxiety by tm2b · · Score: 3, Funny
      Man! Things were so much easier back in my day. Just do what my friends did.
      5 to 10 years?
      --
      "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
  8. Pen Testing by Mustafu · · Score: 0

    Pen testing tends to improve things for everyone in any aspect of a business as a whole. It tends to increase security awareness amongst those who once neglected it. Especially among those who spend money and time securing their physical assets (houses, autos and the like) but often neglect their networks and computer systems.

  9. favorite program for network security testing by FluffyArmada · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I like to check out the security of my network using the nessus vulnerability scanner. It's free, it works, and it makes me think happy thoughts. :) ( and it keeps me from doing a lot of work )

    --
    If con is the opposite of pro. Then isn't congress the opposite of progress?
    1. Re:favorite program for network security testing by jaseuk · · Score: 1

      Well in that case you've missed most of the points in that article.

      They did not use any vulnerabilities, certainly not anything that an outside scan by nessus would have picked up.

      Jason

  10. Raising the bar by lheal · · Score: 4, Informative

    A lot of people will post on this story about how weak Windows is, or how great OpenBSD is, or whatever.

    The keys to secure computing are

    1. Deciding what you value.
    2. Finding your comfort level - how "secure" do you need to feel?
    3. Creating a multi-layer system to make it more diffificult to attack your network than the next one.

    The use of multiple layers is crucial. Never depend on just a firewall, encrypted transmissions, or just on password protection. Never depend on your vendor to secure your data - it's your data, not your vendor's. Read your EULA, and you'll note how little they care.

    --
    Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
    1. Re:Raising the bar by Gary+Destruction · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Risk Management would be the first step. Deciding what you value is part of that. But you also have to consider threat probability and whether or not the perceived value of assets is worth protecting. And if they are worth protecting, you have to make the cost of obtaining those assets greater than the intruder's perceived value.
      Also remember that social engineering can be used to penetrate networks.

    2. Re:Raising the bar by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Add to that:

      4. Not having stupid users

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    3. Re:Raising the bar by KD5YPT · · Score: 1

      For stupid users...

      Make sure whatever users that have a poterntial to be stupid can't screw up the entire system.

      --
      In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
    4. Re:Raising the bar by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, this means not having any users. Usually not easy to achieve.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    5. Re:Raising the bar by deblau · · Score: 1
      I'd like to state a fundamental rule of data security: your data is secure against attack from entity A if and only if A's cost in obtaining and using it is greater than its worth to them (and they know it). Note that the cost in obtaining the data (decrypting it, social engineering, whatever) is relatively independent of who A is (depending on how many resources they already own). Its worth and cost to use is different for everyone. (Governments and large organizations might have a lower cost to use illicit information, since they can better cover up how they got it, and maybe avoid jail and fines.)

      For each potential attacker, you have to do a cost-benefit analysis. Your data is totally secure if the analysis comes out in your favor for all potential attackers. That means that you have to defend against the attacker who values your information the most, once you figure out who that is. The phrase "comfort level" is convenient, but it looks inward, not outward. Following my method, you can ask managers simple questions like "How much is this data worth in the hands of a competitor", "How likely is it that they would resort to industrial espionage if they knew you were vulnerable", etc. and get quantitative answers on what kind of security you really need, including how much to spend.

      One upside to this approach, if you could call it that, is that if you discover that your data is really worthless ("public records already available on the Internet" comes to mind), there's no need for biometrics, passwords, and expensive multi-layer security systems. Doing the analysis saves companies money.

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    6. Re:Raising the bar by lheal · · Score: 1
      For each potential attacker, you have to do a cost-benefit analysis.

      For each potential attacker class, and for every attack vector open to that class.

      Some avenues of attack are more expensive or more difficult than others, and that depends on the class the attacker fits. Governments can do things that script kiddeez can't afford, while script kiddeez (for example) don't have to get a court order to try.

      Also, it's not necessary for attackers to know a priori that compromising your systems will be more expensive than they are willing to bear. It's ok if they find out while they're trying. If their trying compromises your system, you were just bluffing.

      --
      Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
  11. Difference between hacking and cracking... by Krankheit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Isn't hacking more about the creation of something than the destruction of something? This sounds more like cracking. Anyone can open up a locked car with a coat hanger and hot wire it, but that doesn't make them equal with the skill of the engineers that created the car.

    --
    Powered by caffeine and sugar; BSD
    1. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by mattjb0010 · · Score: 1

      Isn't hacking more about the creation of something than the destruction of something?

      Hey, these are /. "editors" we're talking about here. You don't actually expect them to edit anything, do you?

    2. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IMHO, hacking is creating a vulnerability, and then exploiting it, whereas cracking is exploiting an exisitsing vulnerability. This is how I moralize cracking.

    3. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by jericho4.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Not to defend the ethics of cracking, but I think a good crack and a good hack are nigh indistinguishable.

      To crack a system, one needs to find a hole the developers missed, without access to source. This can take insight and engineering skills on par with the designers, if missapplied. This is why so many hunt for vunrabilities and then release security notices, leaving it to the kiddies to craft the crack.

      In the virus world, the same applies. The SQL injection worm was an awesomely crafted HTTP packet, that obviously took some serious brains, minus common sense.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    4. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds more like cracking.

      Yeah, but you wouldn't want them to title the article "Anatomy of a Crack".

      That could bring up some unpleasant memories...

    5. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by DarKry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually cracking is often creating something new too. At least when it is interesting it is. You are taking something, shattering it and then glueing it back together in a way that was never intended on a much lower level. To crack a system you have to understand the code much better than you would to simply design the system. I view this destruction as an art form. This is not to say that someone who runs the latest greatest "0day sploit" against a random system is an artist. But the person who figured out how to break and remake the system in the first place and subsequently released that "sploit", he is an artist by any standards.

      Just my 2 cents.

    6. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by Kirth · · Score: 1

      Cracking: Breaking cryptographic, copyprotection measures or digital restriction management systems.

      At least that is what "cracking" used to mean before ESR thought he could use it as substitute for "breaking into computer systems".

      --
      "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
    7. Re:Difference between hacking and cracking... by zeroparity · · Score: 1
      "To crack a system, one needs to find a hole the developers missed"

      Or in many cases that i've seen, one only has to find a hole that the developers _hoped_ everyone would miss..

  12. ACs.... by HydrogenOxide · · Score: 1

    Q sex comments

  13. Just like the movie Face Off by Gary+Destruction · · Score: 1

    If you want to get the bad guy, you have to become him. Think about what you would do to break into a network. It's really part of critical thinking where you poke holes in your own arguments. In this case, you're poking holes in your own work.

    1. Re:Just like the movie Face Off by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      Like Face Off? Pen testers are going to have to start carrying around a dozen doves or so to release at the moment of hackage!

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
  14. Error parsing construct.. by TCM · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Protect Your Windows Network: From Perimeter to Data.

    Who in his fucking right mind would put Windows boxes at the edge of his network?! If you must use it, at least use a proper OS for babysitting.

    --
    Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    1. Re:Error parsing construct.. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      <sigh>

      You may not have R'd TFA, but if you had, you'd notice that the techniques they illustrate to gain increasing and ultimately complete access to the network aren't particularly Windows-centric. The attack starts with a SQL injection vulnerability, for example, which is just as possible on a fully patched LAMP box if it's carelessly set up. The tools and specifics might be different on another system, but don't kid yourself that running non-MS machines at the edge of your networks is some kind of panacea. It's not.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:Error parsing construct.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You "Pro Unix/Linux" people... you REALLY need to get off your 'high-horse' of illusion if you think that Linux or Unix is anymore secure (barring pre-hardened models of it) than Windows Server 2003 is for example, out of the box. They're ALL 'breakable' IF you don't take measures yourselves & test them out yourselves, REGULARLY. Maintaining a separate logging system, apart from say, std. EventLogs in Windows Systems? Isn't out of the question: I say this, because if you've read the book called "The Cuckoos Egg" by Cliff Stoll? You'd see that's how the German hackers got caught busting into the United States Militaries' bases like Ft. Stewart (where my bro served as an officer until he was shuttled off to IRAQ years ago)... they wiped the std. logs, but students the summer previous @ the school Mr. Stoll was working at created a supplementary logging system that was not "jiving" with the std. UNIX logs... which the crackers WERE wiping clean of their tracks. Just something to think about, & READ THAT BOOK: Shows you an 'insight' into the mind of guys that are REALLY (or were) good @ that type of thing... apk

  15. Windows networks by BigWiz · · Score: 1

    Stilling from the blind is not an act to be written in history.

    1. Re:Windows networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is 'stilling', you faggot?

  16. Article has a good page on cleaning systems by billstewart · · Score: 4, Interesting
    About page 10 of the article, the author gets to a discussion of what you can do to clean up a compromised system, and uses the analogy of cleaning a swimming pool with undesirable liquids in it - you can't just clean the water, you've got to drain the whole thing and start over. He lists a large number of things you can no longer trust on a compromised system, and explains how each of a number of successively more difficult approaches won't work.
    • You can't just patch the hole the attacker used - he installed a bunch more new holes one he got in.
    • You can't just reinstall from backup, because you don't know if your backup files are compromised too.
    • You can't look in your log files to figure out when you got compromised, because any good cracker knows to wipe his traces out of the log file.
    • You can't just reinstall the operating system over the existing one - too many dangerous files may still be there, including things left in the data and application directories.
    • 3... 4... 5. DON'T PROFIT! 6...
    • You're stuck reinstalling the OS and applications from known-good media onto a clean disk, and hoping you can salvage some of the data, depending on whether your applications make this possible.

    What he doesn't really go into his how to build your production systems in a way that *ASSUMES* you're going to get attacked, maintains a clean environment for developing them in, and gives you the tools to rebuild rapidly from trustable versions. On the other hand, he does show how his example's victim's system was thoroughly broken into, getting from the production system to the development system, because it really *is* hard to do a good job of separating them adequately in a real environment, so even if you think you have a clean-room, you might not.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Article has a good page on cleaning systems by ScytheBlade1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know, there's something that's really rather simple that secures your backups from being toyed with.

      All of my backups end in .tar.gz.gpg.

      Ah, simplicity of well thought out security. (Concerning backups, anyways.)

      Shameless plug follows
      A bit ago, I accidently nuked my home dir, so I made myself a backup script that scans $HOME for ".nobackup" files, and then archives everything but those directories containing those (I really don't need three copies of the kernel source in my backups, you know?). It .tar.gz compresses them into $HOME/.backups/, and if $HOME/.backups/gpgkey exists, will use gpg to encrypt your backup for you. More info here.

    2. Re:Article has a good page on cleaning systems by bombshelter13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think this isn't really what the author meant about the backups being compromised.

      If you were a hacker, and had just broken into someone's computer/network, would you start playing around and messing things up as soon as you got in?

      Hell no. Only a moron would do that. You would (very quietly) install another backdoor or two, to make sure you can still get in, and then you'd wait five or six months, maybe a year or so, and ~then~ start causing trouble.

      If you start making a mess right away, there's a good chance you'll get detected, and they'll do something about it to lock you out, maybe even going back to those backups and restoring them. That's no good.

      On the other hand, if you wait, then by the time you start causing noticeable damage, they've already made new backups several times. With your exploits already in them. So they can restore the backups, and you can log right back in. The only way to get uncompromized backups will to use very old ones, from before you got in in the first place.

      Patience is a virtue, in hacking just as in everything else.

    3. Re:Article has a good page on cleaning systems by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      You know, there's something that's really rather simple that secures your backups from being toyed with. All of my backups end in .tar.gz.gpg.

      Look up , yeah right now..... that plane you see up there is carrying the point you missed !

      How do you _know_ that the files weren't compromised before you zipped and encrypted them ?

      Still think that's well thought out security ?

    4. Re:Article has a good page on cleaning systems by ScytheBlade1 · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      I keep backups for a year and a half.

      You know, minimum.

  17. Glad they told me it was immoral to (cr|h)ack... by jpardey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ..into other people's networks.

    I wouldn't have figured that out without them. From what I understand, laws describe what is legal, and individuals decide what is moral. Then again, maybe psycopaths need to be told...

    --
    I have freaks! I did something right...
  18. we lost that battle in the mainstream media... by bubbaD · · Score: 1

    it would be nice if Slashdot made the distinction, but the most of the world, hacking~cracking. BTW its become really difficult to open cars doors with coat hangers. You need to leave the VT52 terminal once and a while and get out more!

  19. Old, old news... by LO0G · · Score: 2, Informative

    This was posted in Microsoft Technet magazine way back in January.

    http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues /2005/01/AnatomyofaHack/default.aspx

    1. Re:Old, old news... by Lingur · · Score: 0

      Welcome to Slashdot.

  20. Re:Glad they told me it was immoral to (cr|h)ack.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally I always thought it was convenience to break into someone's network and leave them a little note about how I got in. That way when someone comes along that really wants to do harm, they'll have patched the holes I found.

    But, we all grow up sometimes I guess.

  21. Anatomy of a Hack... by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...Jon Katz, is that you?

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  22. No new news here by michaelaiello · · Score: 5, Informative

    Quick overview of the meat of the article

    1. Do a WHOIS lookup of the IP range the network is on.
    2. Search newsgroups for previous network internals that the SA has posted somewhere.
    3. Do a port scan and fingerprint.
    4. If there is a vulnerable service running, use a common exploit.
    5. A quick description of how sql injection attack works on a web-application login.
    6. Use xp_cmdshell on MS-SQL to download remote shell code via tftp.
    7. Once somone has the sql server under control, use the poorly configured internal network to become domain admin.

    Somone needs to put together a description on how a "social engineering" penetration test should be done objectivly. If there is one out there please let me know. =P

    1. Re:No new news here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      1. Call helpdesk, impersonate corporate boss, tell them you forgot your password and connection information, get it reset.
      2. Connect with VPN/dialup access.
      3. Exploit local root hole

      Simple!

    2. Re:No new news here by burns210 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Stealing the Network: How To Own The Box" is a good book about general hacking/cracking/forensics/geekery. 10 chapters, 10 different stories talking about how a person (playing on offense or defense) goes about a computer or network hack. One of the stories in the middle is a good one on a former employee that does some real-life social engineering and whatnot to get to his end goal.

      Just finished the book, well worth the fairly short read. All non-true stories but are based in a realistic setting. Gets mildly to fairly technical on the how and what the plot character is doing not just a "Yes, I'm in!" but the actual command output or thought process on what they are trying to accomplish.

    3. Re:No new news here by bburton · · Score: 1
      Somone needs to put together a description on how a "social engineering" penetration test should be done objectivly. If there is one out there please let me know. =P
      Kevin Mitnick has written some interesting books that cover social engineering attacks extensively. More info here and here. They are a must read for anyone working in security.
      --
      Slashdot = ((Technology + Politics) / Trolls) % Grammar Nazis
  23. Anatomy of a hack: See Jon Katz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, thats right, its been over 3 years since Jon has posted on Slashdot; however we still remember how much of a hack he was/is.

  24. You can with Debian. by khasim · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All you have to do is to boot with a known good rescue CD (Knoppix is great for this).

    Then you can mount the infected drive and validate the checksums against the packages available on the web.

    This will not tell you anything about your data, but none of your data should be executable anyway, right?

    The same goes for Red Hat or any other distribution that has checksums for both packages and files contained within those packages.

    You can even completely re-install the kernel on a Debian system in this fashion.

  25. Sad to see by Knights+who+say+'INT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slashdot surrendering to the mainstream, negative meaning of "hack".

    I though it was supposed to be a hacker forum :~

  26. Replying to my own post (sigh) by haakondahl · · Score: 0, Troll

    Sorry to bust taboo, but I can't believe anybody modded my post "informative". So I certainly agree with the "overrated" mods, but "troll"? Perhaps modding would improve around here if every mod contained the Mod's username.

    --
    Don't trust anyone under thirty.
  27. Ah so, Jedis do build their own light sabers by davidwr · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Since any competent pen tester (or system administrator) with a need for these types of tools can write them, there is no reason for us to distribute them here."

    Ah so, it is true then, Jedis do build their own light sabers.

    Disclaimer: I've seen this link on /. before but I'm too lame to look for it.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  28. Oh noes!! by satanami69 · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's got wake on lan.

    --
    I really hate Dan Patrick.
    1. Re:Oh noes!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol!

  29. strange definitions of warez, xss, etc. by lonedroid · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I just read the whole FA (yup, I'm new here as my user ID can tell ;) and I'm not sure what to think about it.

    The metodology used is not extraordinary: setting up a purposedly insecure network then hacking (sic) it themselves using the known holes is kind of cheesy. It helps to show how it works, but I prefer the honeynet approach: setting up boxes with known (or not) security holes, then analysing how a real intruder creates havoc.

    Then there's some strange (re)definition of words.

    For example, straight from TFA:

    There are several techniques for getting our tools (often called "warez") onto the database server.

    Then, as a side note:

    Warez is a hacker/attacker colloquialism. It comes from the term "software," but is now used varyingly to mean either "attack tools" or "bootlegged software." In this chapter, we use it in the former context.

    I think it's the first time I see the term "warez" used to describe "attack tools" (sic). I used to live in ancient times where "warez" weren't yet called "warez", then "warez" became "warez". Now what? "warez" aren't "warez" anymore? As it changed? (then a great many online dictionaries definition should be updated btw.).

    The definition of XSS is also interesting:

    In Figure 2-5, we see that not only do we get logged on, but the application also displayed the fake username we sent it on the home page. This latter artifact is actually a separate type of vulnerability known as a cross-site scripting (XSS) vulnerability, where the user input is echoed directly to the screen without sanitizing it first. We will not use it in the following attack, but it is interesting to note that it is there.

    This definition of XSS is wrong: it's not because we see what was typed that the input weren't sanitized (sic). And it's certainly not because we see what was entered that this could lead to code being executed on another user's computer. Moreover I find the last sentence of this paragraph misleading: We will not use it in the following attack, but it is interesting to note that is is there. Of course they're not using it: they're "hacking" the server(s), not joe random visitor's box.

    Then there are quite a lot half-truth, that can also be misleading:

    A fully compromised system cannot be trusted to tell you the truth. Even virus scanners must at some level rely on the system to not lie to them. If they ask whether a particular file is present, the attacker may simply have a tool in place that lies about it.

    If by "fully compromised" it means that the BIOS has been flashed and now lies about the files it reports, I then more or less agree. However such a tool is improbable (not enough room in the BIOS memory and not all BIOS can be flashed at will). So by "fully compromised" that's probably not what they meant. How would then an attacker lie when booting from a CD and running the scan from the CD? Or when hooking the compromised HD as a second HD on a clean system? It's not like everybody run their virus/trojans/rootkits scanners from the suspicious host.

    Then at the end of TFLA (the 'L' stands for "Long") they explain, in a very windowish style, how to recover from a "hack": reinstall everything, because there's nothing you can trust (besides Windows's installation medium?)

    So is it about the anatomy of a "hack" or how to recover from a "hack"? Both? Then why not a single word about how to configure an IDS?

    Speaking of IDS, from TFA: Once we took over an entire network through an intrusion detection system.

    WTF? I'm not sure if by their definition Snort qualifies as an IDS, but I run Snort in a passive way: no IP, not a single packet emitting from the box, etc. If an IDS becomes an entry point for intruders, then it's not an IDS but an IAS: Intrusion Automation System ;)

    The article could be summarized like this (like others already pointed out i

    1. Re:strange definitions of warez, xss, etc. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I think it's the first time I see the term "warez" used to describe "attack tools" (sic)."

      -I have live ancient times as well, and it has been used to describe stuff you have. Not only pirated software.

      "This definition of XSS is wrong: it's not because we see what was typed that the input weren't sanitized (sic)"

      -Actually, it is an implication of it.

      ", but I run Snort in a passive way: no IP, not a single packet emitting from the box, etc."

      -Good for you. How you administer it remotely?

    2. Re:strange definitions of warez, xss, etc. by fuzzybunny · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article is not realistic, the scenarios described are way too simplified, and it's not something a true security guru would waste 5 minutes even contemplating as a "real life" example of how stuff works.

      Remember, though, that by even knowing that the topic of security exists, you're ahead of 80% of the crowd. Firewall? 90%. What are ports and sockets? 95%. SQL Injection? Cross-site scripting? Packet rebuilding with Scapy? Memory manipulation? Bus mastering? Whoa.

      If anything, I have noticed my overall technical clue level go down pretty drastically over the last few years, simply by virtue of having to choose how to talk to my audience (I'm a security consultant, although sometimes I wonder whether I'm worthy of the term. I start tending to describe myself as more of a well-paid kindergarden teacher.)

      The article does a fine step-by-step description of the basics of intrusion, in sufficient-but-not-quite-overpowering-detail. It is not geared at you, but is rather meant to present some basics of the topic in a non-intimidating manner (no, "go memorize RFC 793" is NOT an acceptable answer for most of the world) to technically somewhat-but-not-overly-clued managers, developers, whatnot.

      The mistake the slashdot crowd (and most '1337 security types) make is taking a very overbearingly arrogant stance to the wide-eyed and scared masses who just want someone to tell them "ok, we have a big problem here, but let me try to explain what it is and how it works." Remember that and you'll go far professionally.

      --
      Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
    3. Re:strange definitions of warez, xss, etc. by sabat · · Score: 1

      Speaking of IDS, from TFA: Once we took over an entire network through an intrusion detection system.

      WTF? I'm not sure if by their definition Snort qualifies as an IDS, but I run Snort in a passive way: no IP, not a single packet emitting from the box, etc. If an IDS becomes an entry point for intruders, then it's not an IDS but an IAS: Intrusion Automation System ;)


      Interestingly enough, there have been vulnerabilities in Snort that actually did allow one to compromise it. Seems impossible given that Snort runs passively, but there was some sort of buffer overflow that let you get an active connection to a passive box. Go figure.

      --
      I, for one, welcome our new Antichrist overlord.
  30. What's a hack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am dismayed even /., among all places, is not using the word 'hack' correctly.

    Breaking into another computer or network is not hacking, it is called 'cracking.'

    Get the terms straight.

  31. the key: how stuff works... by ecalkin · · Score: 1

    as i've taught technical material (novell, microsoft, cisco) i've gotten a a deeper understanding of how things work. from doing labs, building demos for students, having students provide a different way of looking at things, this knowledge builds. a degree in computer science helps also.

    understanding something completely is the best way to break it, compromise it, protect it. you must also have some creativity and/or intuition.

    just some thoughts.

    eric

  32. rootkit implied by "fully compromised system" by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 1
    Your commentary is interesting, but there's one bit that's worthy of further consideration.
    TFA:
    A fully compromised system cannot be trusted to tell you the truth. Even virus scanners must at some level rely on the system to not lie to them. If they ask whether a particular file is present, the attacker may simply have a tool in place that lies about it.


    Your critique:
    If by "fully compromised" it means that the BIOS has been flashed and now lies about the files it reports, I then more or less agree. However such a tool is improbable (not enough room in the BIOS memory and not all BIOS can be flashed at will). So by "fully compromised" that's probably not what they meant. How would then an attacker lie when booting from a CD and running the scan from the CD? Or when hooking the compromised HD as a second HD on a clean system? It's not like everybody run their virus/trojans/rootkits scanners from the suspicious host.
    There's no need to flash the BIOS to get the system to lie to the legitimate systems administrator. The guest administrator need only install a rootkit, which is probably what the author had in mind.

    Yes, one can detect a rootkit if one boots from a known clean media such as a CDROM. It's sometimes tricky though, because you don't really know what to look for, and even if you find part of it, you may not have all of it. Recently I've seen descriptions of rootkit watchdogs -- essentially two instances of a kernel rootkit installed in different ways, where each will re-activate the other if it goes away. Clever systems administrators who "clean" a system and miss part of a rootkit might wind up remaining 0wn3d by Th3m.

    Although you seem to assume that nobody in their right mind would trust a scan run directly from the booted, known-to-be-compromised system, you would be surprised. (At the very least, you might be surprised how many systems administrators and managers are not in their right mind.) It can be quite difficult to talk people out of trusting their AntiVirus scan after a system has been rooted. After all, they spent millions of dollars for it (at the enterprise scale). I am frequently asked "If I can't trust FAVORITE_ANTIVIRUS_VENDOR, who can I trust?" and "If I can't trust the AntiVirus scan to detect a rootkit after a box has been cracked, what good is it?" Even if they understand the technical issues, which sometimes they don't, they are still able to maintain cognitive dissonance with the best of televangelist fans, "That person has no legs, but Jesus, acting through the hands of Tommy Ray Piemaker just healed them and they got up and walked!"

    Here's an interesting starting point on rootkits:Recognizing and Recovering from Rootkit Attacks
    --
    If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
  33. Any comments on this? by ArgieNomad · · Score: 1

    Yeah guys, I RTFA, what do you think of this:

    Naturally, many other ports can be open, particularly if the target system is not a Windows system. However, these are the ones we look for in this chapter.

    Wasn't windoze the OS with stupid, wide-range, unexplainably open ports? Any volunteers to slap the author senseless?

    --
    I just read /. for the sigs
    1. Re:Any comments on this? by nystire · · Score: 0

      I hate myself for saying this, but when somebody new is setting up a server on any of the *nixes (Linux, BSD, etc...), they generally install things they don't need because 'they might need them'... This can open up quite a few interesting ports for the outside world's use.

      It took me 2 compromised machines to get over that phase :( Fortunately, they were on my home network, so there was no serious fallout.

  34. Error parsing "panacea" by freeweed · · Score: 2, Informative

    Non-MS machines not being perfect, and the parent comment that Windows should never be on the perimeter defense, are two entirely different things.

    Network security in general, like another poster already commented, is about risk management. You'll NEVER be 100% secure - this doesn't mean that OS with the worst security track record in history is good enough. The idea is to get yourself to a comfortable level of paranoia vs functionality.

    After watching Code Red, Blaster, Slammer, Sasser, etc, etc, etc run rampant through the Internet, I'm sorry, but I have to agree. Putting Windows anywhere NEAR your perimeter is like russian roulette. Sure, you can find someone who hasn't experienced problems with them. They're still in the 1%, however.

    And don't anyone give me the marketshare bullshit excuse, please. The server market is still nowhere close to being dominated by Windows, yet it still sees the vast majority (99.99999%) of worm traffic.

    SQL injections? Yeah, they work on any OS. Helps the cracker a whole lot if your SQL server runs with root privs - which for all I know is still the default and required state of a MSSQL box. If not... hooray, Microsoft caught up to 10 years ago.

    --
    Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
  35. I'd moderate you Funny/Informative... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...but I can't. ;)

    Ranma-sensei

    P.S.: Yes, I know this is offtopic - come on, mod me down!

  36. That's only a beginning. by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Sure, you can check the files that are part of the standard distribution. That won't find additions to your password files or the similar permission files for half a dozen different programs that track who's authorized to do what, or find extra programs in root's home directory or search path or /bin (such as a modified version of a file that's normally in /usr/bin, with the /usr/bin version left untouched), and it won't find modified versions of files that get modified during the installation process, and there are probably a bunch of other ways to hide things.

    So you have to start by reinstalling known good copies on a reformatted disk slice, and gradually recover things as you prove them safe. It's much easier if you've done a heavy-duty job of configuration management and kept a really solid wall between your development and production systems, but that's surprisingly hard to get anybody to do well enough.

    I once found a directory /.something with cracker data on one of my lab honeypots - the cracker had modified "ls" and "ps" so his files and processes wouldn't be found, including all his little setuid toys. Didn't occur to him that I'd be using "find" as a regular administrative tool that he'd need to hack, or looking at /proc wondering why there seemed to be extra processes there. (After all, it's a *lab* machine - I was experimenting with it.) You'd probably find some of those things if you were using Knoppix to check, but you might not, since the evil processes were running with innocuous-looking names and the directory names started with dots.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  37. Correction: by jpardey · · Score: 1

    I did not mean to say that it is immoral or moral to infringe on a network. I merely meant to say that morality is decided by the person doing the action.

    But yes, voluntary "pen testing" is probably often helpful. perhaps crackers could masquerade as white hats (company's POV, hactivists go under crackers in this example) if something screws up... but often companies won't even patch holes when they are pointed out (sorry, no source).

    --
    I have freaks! I did something right...
  38. Pathetic by HaydnH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article relies on somebody setting up a web server that allows SQL injection and runs using the admin user... who in their right mind would set up a system like this??

    They may aswell have written an article on how to crack a system if somebody sends you the SA password... pathetic!

    --
    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
  39. OPINION ON ABSOLUTE INVULNERABILITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree: Multiple layers of defense IS "the way"!

    That, and turning off what you do NOT need to be running (e.g.-> services you don't actually use), & going that extra yard hardening up the system AND doing "penetration testing" on your own ontop of that!

    You NEED to be thinking JUST like someone who would be after your machines &/or network (i.e.-> YOUR information). It means having to do alot of work yourself and like the best policemen imo? You need to have a dash of the criminal mentality inside yourself as well.

    The EULA is just to protect themselves from legal ramifications in case some NEW way to blow by all of the defenses a 3rd party vendor may put into place gets beaten so they are not liable for that... that's mostly it, imo, regarding that.

    (They're just protecting themselves, because new methods of 'break-in' & application vulnerability surface quite alot every year that get used to get around things!)

    E.G.-> Witness VPN/Cisco routers dictionary crack type penetrations, & not using "3 tries & you're out" on logon attempts into them, which most OS' & Administrators even have setup on them along with periods in which re-attempts are setup to lock said individual/machineaddress/ip out for ontop of it... so much for the "impenetrable VPN" & encryption being 'impenetrable''s another "fantasy"... the best you can do imo, nowadays, is to slow down the attacker & pay attention to your logs (I know, I know, miles long... this is where you automate scanning them looking for repeat attempts & outliers/failures on logon attempts etc. because of the length of them sometimes)

    IMO, It's going to be a LONG time before applications themselves are 'crack-proof' as well, and they DO represent a point of attack.

    My main examples being web-browsers like IE & FireFox having exploits found in them many times each year as well, if not email programs, etc./et all... remote communicae oriented apps in general. Things like AIM are turning up holes regularly as well.

    The day's coming when it'll slow down, however, I don't think we will see a totally secure environment for another decade or so... if ever.

    APK

  40. It's the administrator you want, not Microsoft by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    The thing is, I think you guys are confusing "Windows machine" with "naively configured machine". I'll concede in advance that there is a high correlation. ;-)

    You seem to be extrapolating from the fact that Sasser and friends were a widespread pain in the ass that Windows sucks. The latter may be true, but the former doesn't imply it. I got the feeling (just from reading the reports at the time, nothing fancy) that those worms mostly spread through stupidly configured home-user systems, not professionally-run boxes with competent sysadmins. (I think it's safe to say that if you don't have competent sysadmins, you're pretty screwed on any OS.)

    Of course you shouldn't run your web server as root/Administrator/whatever. Of course you shouldn't leave convenient hacking tools installed by default. But let's be fair, those are poor administration, and not unique to Windows. If you run Apache on Linux, but leave a hole in a CGI app that's running at too high a privilege level, you're just as screwed.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  41. Relies on injection by scarlac · · Score: 1

    It seems that much of the article relies on "SQL-injection" which is, to my experience, a disappearing trend. A few years ago, SQL injections was very widespread. I would rather say that the article demonstrates the eggshell-principle of how 1 bad script can make it crack.

  42. Actually, it will. by khasim · · Score: 1
    Sure, you can check the files that are part of the standard distribution.
    Yep. And those are the ones that would be replaced by a rootkit.
    That won't find additions to your password files or the similar permission files for half a dozen different programs that track who's authorized to do what...
    It doesn't have to. Those should be easy to check manually.

    You DO know what accounts are necessary on your systems, right?
    ...or find extra programs in root's home directory...
    Why would there be any apps in /root? If you find any there, you delete them.
    ...or search path or /bin (such as a modified version of a file that's normally in /usr/bin, with the /usr/bin version left untouched),...
    Sure it will. Every file there should be part of a package. All you have to do is have the system check which package each file belongs to.

    Any files that don't belong to a package, you delete.
    ...and it won't find modified versions of files that get modified during the installation process,...
    Such as? The files that get modified during installation are things like hostname and timezone and so forth. It's kind of hard to hide anything bad in those.
    ... and there are probably a bunch of other ways to hide things.
    Nope. That's one of the reasons why package management systems are so good. They make it easy to validate every file on your machine.
    So you have to start by reinstalling known good copies on a reformatted disk slice, and gradually recover things as you prove them safe.
    Again, no you don't. Not with Debian.
    I once found a directory /.something with cracker data on one of my lab honeypots - the cracker had modified "ls" and "ps" so his files and processes wouldn't be found, including all his little setuid toys.
    Yep. That's pretty standard for a rootkit.

    And those mod's are instantly identifiable because they won't have the same checksum as the originals.
    You'd probably find some of those things if you were using Knoppix to check, but you might not, since the evil processes were running with innocuous-looking names and the directory names started with dots.
    Of course you would find them. They would show up as NOT belonging to any of the packages that are installed.

    It doesn't matter where they're hidden.

    It doesn't matter what they're named.
    1. Re:Actually, it will. by Nevyn · · Score: 1
      Sure it will. Every file there should be part of a package. All you have to do is have the system check which package each file belongs to.

      Any files that don't belong to a package, you delete.

      [...]

      And those mod's are instantly identifiable because they won't have the same checksum as the originals.

      And where are the package content checksumss kept? That's right, on your compromised system. I'm not even sure debian mandates MD5 checkums on all it's pacakge files yet.

      Also there are more than a few files that don't belong to a package (like /etc/fstab -- and very much do bad things with this) or are config. files (like all of /etc/init.d/* in debian).

      Even if you could somehow trust the OS+libc+package-manager there's no Linux package-manager that will do a full check (Ie. tell me of all files in /usr that "don't belong" there), or check against a verifiable remote resource. tripwire and it's ilk can do some of this, if you take the pain to set it up and maintain it.

      Yes, with rpm/dpkg you can get yourself out of a simple compromise if you assume a lot of things ... but the only way to be sure if re-install, and import the data.

      --
      ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
  43. PwnSauce by ChayesFSS · · Score: 1

    All your Base are...

  44. No assumptions necessary. by khasim · · Score: 1
    And where are the package content checksumss kept? That's right, on your compromised system.
    No. They're on the web site of the distribution that you used.

    You compare the checksum of the package on your system with the checksum listed on the website.

    You DO know what a checksum is, right?
    I'm not even sure debian mandates MD5 checkums on all it's pacakge files yet.
    Mandates or not, they are there.
    Also there are more than a few files that don't belong to a package (like /etc/fstab -- and very much do bad things with this) or are config. files (like all of /etc/init.d/* in debian).
    Yeah. Right.

    No, seriously, how is someone going to sneak something by you in fstab?

    And everything in init.d would also be checked.

    Do you mean to say that you do not know what changes you've made in init.d? I certainly do. The only changes I've made are for running bind9 in a chroot jail and some tweaks to exim4. Everything else is pure stock and can be checked by a script.
    Even if you could somehow trust the OS+libc+package-manager there's no Linux package-manager that will do a full check (Ie. tell me of all files in /usr that "don't belong" there), or check against a verifiable remote resource.
    #1. Why would I not trust "the OS+libc+package-manager"? It's Knoppix. I booted the system clean.

    #2. On Debian, I can check all the files on the whole disk (not just /usr) and it will tell me what files belong to what packages and which do not.

    Here's the first step for you.
    cd /usr
    dpkg -S * > /root/usr.info.txt

    See? Every file there lists the package that installed it. If you see any files that do NOT have a package referenced, then you have a problem.
    Yes, with rpm/dpkg you can get yourself out of a simple compromise if you assume a lot of things ... but the only way to be sure if re-install, and import the data.
    Incorrect. The concept becomes very clear once you understand the boot process of Linux.

    If you can get the machine to boot from a known good install (Knoppix) then you can trust the tools you'll use to check each file on the disk.

    The disk is not magical. There is no secret place that a file can be mystically concealed from a clean boot and the root account.

    The process of loading those files is not magical. Each file is called by a specific process. If the processes can be validated and the files verified, then the system is clean.

    Therefore, it is just a matter of collecting the information from a known good source (Debian's website) and validating that every file on the disk can be verified as to origin and checksum.

    The ONLY times when this will not work is for files that YOU have altered or software that YOU have installed and YOU should be aware of each and every instance of such on YOUR machines.

    Even if you do NOT know that about a machine, I can still identify the clean portions and the suspect portions AND THEN isolate the suspect portions for analysis.
    1. Re:No assumptions necessary. by Nevyn · · Score: 1

      No. They're on the web site of the distribution that you used.

      Let's stick to debian instead of pretending that all distributiuons are the same (although, AFAIK, no distributions allows what you claim they all do).

      So, with debian, you can boot into knoppix. There is no general tool to say "I'm booted into knoppix, please verify /mnt/foo which is a debian installation with wesite bar using gpg key XYZ".

      So, what can you do ... you can have a trusted version of debsig-verify, and a trusted version of lftp on the knoppix CD ... you can download what is currently available from the debian repositories NOTE: this isn't necessarily the same as what you had installed, that isn't possible in the general case (again, just talking about debian). It's also not possible to only download just the packages you need ... but you have a trusted lftp, and so you can do an lftp mirror and get all packages (now wait X hours for that to happen).

      Now you have all packages, you can setup/run debsig-verify and prove all those packages are correct. Then you have to extract the checksums from the packages, as I said earlier with debian checksums for files aren't part of policy, debsums -l shows "at" as an obvious candidate that doesn't have any debsums. So you'll need to manually unpackage all of the packages that you think you have installed, and then generate checksums for all the files (again, there is no tool to do this -- get your vim/perl out).

      So, yes, you've now generated a complete checksum of all files that come directly from packages. And you can now write another tool that will check what is installed on /mnt/foo against that list. You will get a significant number of hits for config. files (both in /etc and those in other places like /var/spool/cron/crontabs), or files you have in /home/, or package generated files like /etc/fstab (not forgetting things like debconf files). The only option is to manually inspect all of these files.

      Oh, and remember ... after writing all these custom tools, doing all this work and eventually falling back to inspecting 10s or 100s, or even 1000s of files by hand ... this is all if you are lucky, if you are unlucky you'll have something installed that isn't on the main repositary sites anymore (for instance, you had a security update of package foo that has had another update -- only the latest update will be available).

      Or, you could just reinstall the OS and import the data from backups.

      No, seriously, how is someone going to sneak something by you in fstab?

      For someone asking if I understand what a checksum is you are now acting pretty stupid. fstab is obviously not the only package generated file. For fstab explicitly, I'm not sure you could do something bad that would be stealthy ... but you could certainly do unstealthy things like have loopback mounts with setuid helpers (possibly hiding under other loopback mounts, so nothing will see them until a non-privilaged app. does a umount on the first loopback).

      The point is you have to manually audit all of these types of files to _prove_ that you are safe ... as against just reinstalling the OS and importing the data.

      #1. Why would I not trust "the OS+libc+package-manager"? It's Knoppix. I booted the system clean.

      #2. On Debian, I can check all the files on the whole disk (not just /usr) and it will tell me what files belong to what packages and which do not.

      Here's the first step for you.
      cd /usr
      dpkg -S * > /root/usr.info.txt

      You

      --
      ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
    2. Re:No assumptions necessary. by billstewart · · Score: 1
      Dude, there's no need to be insulting or condescending.

      Actual production systems are typically much more complex than a raw Debian installation. It takes a *lot* of discipline to run a good configuration management environment at all, something that far too many companies with web sites don't do well, much less to run it in a way that gives you a trusted base for every application on your system.

      You're probably not just going to have raw Debian and some data files. There'll be databases (typically Oracle or something of similar power, for which you don't have source code), home-grown applications, for which the source code lives on your development environment, testing and instrumentation to model what's really happening on the production system, little hackish shell/perl/etc. scripts to glue things together, detritus that's accumulated over several years that nobody's really sure what it does, etc.

      Furthermore, unless your CM people are extremely good, it's hard to build an adequate development environment without some connection to the production systems, and that means that there are going to be some crossover connections between the two, possibly some developer logins on the production system (you *do* check all your SSH permission files into CVS, and your DNS resolvers, and all the proxy settings for Mozilla that each user uses, don't you? It'd be a real shame if the Debian you thought you were connecting to wasn't the *real* Debian.), and that means there's a risk that your developers will get *their* environments contaminated before you've noticed the breakin, just as there's a risk that your backups will get contaminated. And I've almost *never* seen a clean development shop environment - it's tough enough to get the developers to make sure the QA department is testing on a properly-built-from-scratch environment for each subrelease, as opposed to upgrading from the previous version.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  45. Oversimplification. by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

    Actually, cracking today is a bit more like hotwiring a car using the just the fusebox. It takes about as much knowledge of the electrical subsystem to build the car as it does to do that.

    --
    Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
  46. Actually, there is. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Dude, there's no need to be insulting or condescending.

    Sure there is. When I say 2+2=4 and someone else is saying it's 6, then condescending is spot on.

    Actual production systems are typically much more complex than a raw Debian installation.

    No, they are not.

    They have the same BASIC system and then they have whatever specifics needed for that app.

    If I can validate everything except that app, then it is just a matter of re-installing that app. And that is the issue.

    It takes a *lot* of discipline to run a good configuration management environment at all, something that far too many companies with web sites don't do well, much less to run it in a way that gives you a trusted base for every application on your system.

    If you don't have a trusted base for the app you're running, then you have bigger problems than a compromised system.

    NOTHING you do, including a complete re-install will give you a known clean system in that case.

    NOTHING.

    You're probably not just going to have raw Debian and some data files.

    Been over that. Next question.

    There'll be databases (typically Oracle or something of similar power, for which you don't have source code), home-grown applications, for which the source code lives on your development environment, testing and instrumentation to model what's really happening on the production system, little hackish shell/perl/etc. scripts to glue things together, detritus that's accumulated over several years that nobody's really sure what it does, etc.

    Right..... and you're going to re-install all of that so you have a known clean system.

    Oh, you're not? Then what is the difference between my process and your's?

    Furthermore, unless your CM people are extremely good, it's hard to build an adequate development environment without some connection to the production systems, and that means that there are going to be some crossover connections between the two, possibly some developer logins on the production system (you *do* check all your SSH permission files into CVS, and your DNS resolvers, and all the proxy settings for Mozilla that each user uses, don't you?

    Again, if you're doing development on a production system (or running with development and production linked) you have bigger problems than a compromised system.

    You simply will not KNOW if you have a clean system.

    You'll have to do a 100% audit of ALL the code you have because the cracker could have installed backdoors in ANY of your code.

    Again, in that situation, even doing a complete rebuild will NOT give you a known clean system.

    It'd be a real shame if the Debian you thought you were connecting to wasn't the *real* Debian.

    And this is where condescending is required. Fill it in for yourself.

    ...and that means there's a risk that your developers will get *their* environments contaminated before you've noticed the breakin, just as there's a risk that your backups will get contaminated.

    Again, in that scenario there is nothing you can do, including a bare-metal rebuild, that will give you a known good environment.

    So, my process would give you results as good as a bare-metal rebuild, even in that scenario.

    And I've almost *never* seen a clean development shop environment - it's tough enough to get the developers to make sure the QA department is testing on a properly-built-from-scratch environment for each subrelease, as opposed to upgrading from the previous version.

    Again, in a situation where the code you're developing MIGHT be compromised, including your backups, then following my process will give you results as good as a bare-meta

  47. I'm a sysadmin. I rock. by khasim · · Score: 1
    So, with debian, you can boot into knoppix. There is no general tool to say "I'm booted into knoppix, please verify /mnt/foo which is a debian installation with wesite bar using gpg key XYZ".
    Unlike certain Windows-centric individuals, I am not limited by the presence or absence of a tool specifically written to perform a function. I can script my own.

    That is because I rock.

    Attend, Grasshopper, and I will provide you illumination upon your path to True SysAdmin-hood.

    Argue for your limitations, and they will be your's.

    Rather, learn the tools available and see how they are used to overcome the obstacles you have set before yourself. Understand that all is but 0's and 1's and therefore subject to the will of the True SysAdmin.

    The novice quits upon the absence of a tool. The SysAdmin knows that his understanding is the only tool he will need.

    Go in peace and strive to achieve beyond your limits.