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Back and Forth Between Qwerty and Dvorak?

Posted by Cliff on from the switch-typing dept.

jamesh asks: "I'm interested in switching over to an alternate keyboard layout, probably Dvorak, before I begin to suffer any effects of RSI. I'm almost 30 and have been typing since I was about 8, and these days spend most of my workday in front of a computer, typing away at a keyboard. I've searched the Internet and most people's comments are that within a few months they were up to or faster than their previous speed, with better accuracy. I'm mostly a programmer, but I do spend time at client sites and do need to spend time at various users computers to have a look at whatever hole they've dug themselves into, and so I will need to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak mode fairly frequently. What others have found when switching back and forth, as required? Can you mentally just flip back between them, or do you 'lose' your QWERTY skills and become 'hunt & peck' when faced with the old keyboard layout?"

9 of 624 comments (clear)

  1. Similar scenario by Tarcastil · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I tried the switch out last year when I was starting to get RSI. Despite what people say, you can mentally flip between Qwerty and Dvorak without much of a problem. I noticed my Qwerty speed slowed down some because I'd hit a wrong key occasionally, but nothing major. Just make sure you have a good two weeks when you don't need to type much else. I used this site to learn dvorak.

    In the end, I really just stopped using Dvorak. I got over the beginning effects of RSI by not typing much and keeping my wrists straight when I did. Posture's important, too. But my typing speed in Dvorak never exceeded my Qwerty speed, so I just stopped using it. I can still type around 20 wpm with Dvorak, but I really don't have a use for it.

    For linux users: "setxkbmap dvorak" and "setxkbmap en_US"

    1. Re:Similar scenario by meersan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I started to develop RSI in my early twenties. Carpal tunnel in my right arm and ulnar compression in my left (all those alt-ctrl keys). Ten hours a day at work typing, followed by 8 hours at home typing, will set you up for major problems.

      For me, mousing was a big part of the problem--I developed severe pain in my right arm all the way up to my shoulder. Dvorak layout is obviously irrelevant for mouse-related RSI. For a while I seriously doubted whether I'd be able to remain in IT or even work on coding projects for fun.

      Happily, I no longer experience any pain. What happened? Well, the solution for me was not a $200 keyboard or a $1200 office chair or a funky tedious-to-learn key layout. Instead, I bought some thinking putty for 8 bucks. Not only does the stuff help you chill out when stressed, it helps you develop more muscle strength in your hands. I think that must make a huge difference. Playing with thinking putty while waiting for stuff to compile possibly saved my career. Kinda silly, but I've had other people tell me it helped them too. It's definitely worth a shot (and no, I'm not a shill. Just sharing what worked for me).

      --
      We want endless gardens of data, where the bits can flower, flourish and reproduce. -- Andy Mueller-Maguhn
    2. Re:Similar scenario by Pseudonym · · Score: 5, Interesting
      For linux users: "setxkbmap dvorak" and "setxkbmap en_US"

      And a cute trick that someone pointed out to me:

      asdf() { setxkbmap dvorak; }
      aoeu() { setxkbmap en_US; }

      (This is the bash version, obviously.)

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  2. It's like a second language by toddestan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have no problems flipping back and forth between the two layouts. It's a lot like 2 languages - I can say one sentence in English and the next sentence in Spanish without any problem, so why not keyboard layouts?

    With that said, if you totally switch over to Dvorak, your Qwerty skills will get rusty - just like if I don't speak a foriegn language for a while I'll start to forget parts of it. My solution is to have my main machines Dvorak, and let the lesser used machines, and machines that would be hard to switch (like laptops) stay Qwerty. That way, I get practice in both layouts on a daily basis, while still enjoying the benefits of Dvorak most of the time.

  3. Re:Tip For Mac OS X users... by oberondarksoul · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even more useful is the ability to use QWERTY keyboard shortcuts with a DVORAK layout. When typing normally without holding a modifier, the keyboard is pure DVORAK. With this option enabled, holding Command or Option will make it revert back to QWERTY until you let go again. This means you can use the familiar Command+Z/X/C/V shortcuts (for example) from their convenient position near the modifiers without having to stretch all over the place.

    --
    And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
  4. Instead of Layout by jonfelder · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Have you done other things to prevent RSI?

    Things like making sure your desk and chair are the right height? Also it might make sense for you to not just change the layout, but change the keyboard. Either use a Microsoft Natural Keyboard or something like this: Maltron Keyboard

  5. Re:Forget Dvorak by Forthan+Red · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Exactly. Most of the "benefits" of the DSK (Dvorak) keyboard are pure hype. Read and learn. You should be concerned with the design of the keyboard as a whole, rather than the order of the keys.

  6. Mod Parent(s) Up! by nobodyman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    damnit, why do my modpoints expire just before threads like this spring up.

    Dvorak keyboards have only won in tests administered by Dvorak himself.. The truth is that he was looking to make money off of his patented configuration.

    Still, the Dvorak story is very interesting to me in a sociological sense. The Dvorak keyboard's superiority has existed as a sort of counter-culture convential wisdom but has all the underpinnings of an "urban legend" -- a false or heavily-embellished story that survives because the story evokes a strong emotional response, serves as a cautionary tale and/or plays into feelings or ideas felt by a community. In this case the Dvorak story survives not because of the flimsy, circumstantial "proof" but rather because it evokes people's sense of outrage of the "Little Guy with new ideas" being unable fight the tide of convention.

    That said, there *are* keyboards specifically designed to be easier on your fingers. I like the split keyboards because it's easier to keep my wrists straight.

    1. Re:Mod Parent(s) Up! by adrianmonk · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Dvorak keyboards have only won in tests administered by Dvorak himself.. The truth is that he was looking to make money off of his patented configuration.

      Nonsense. I pasted the text of your article into a keyboard compare applet, which is an objective test. When typing the text you typed, the Dvorak keyboard scores better in ALL the important metrics that it covers, including:

      • percentage of keystrokes in home row:
        qwerty, 34.06%; dvorak, 67.55%
      • percentage of keystrokes that required using the same hand as the previous keystroke:
        qwerty, 36.26%; dvorak, 23.40%
      • percentage of keystrokes that required using the same finger as the previous keystroke:
        qwerty, 5.909%; dvorak, 2.317%

      Given that moving from the home row slows you down, and given that alternating hands and (to a lesser extent) alternating fingers gives you a level of parallelism that increases speed (kind of like superscalar processors process parts of instructions in parallel with multiple execution units that each has its own ALU), the Dvorak layout seems to be scoring better.

      While we're on the subject of alternating hands, a friend of mine told me an amusing anecdote about some programmers he knew that were having an ongoing typing competition around the office. They had written some program to spit out random text (composed of words strung together from /usr/dict/words, I think), record how long it takes the user to type it, and compute and record the score. One of the programmers hit upon an idea: he could improve his score if he hacked the testing program to spit out only words that had a high degree of alternation between the hands. That is, one-handed words "aftertaste" and "lollipop" would be avoided, and highly-alternating words like "enchantment" and "proficiency" would be favored. As the story goes, this cheat gave them the ability to get higher scores than the competition, even when taking the test while others watched to verify that nothing fishy was going on. (All that's necessary is to make the program key off some environment variable set in your .profile or whatever.)

      Though that anecdote is only from memory, ask yourself whether "aftertaste" and "lollipop" are indeed to type on a QWERTY keyboard than than "enchantment" and "proficiency" are. I think you'll agree that maximizing alternation between hands is an important characteristic of a good keyboard layout. Furthermore, based on that applet, it seems clear that the Dvorak layout does a better job than the QWERTY layout does of maximizing alternation between hands when typing English prose.