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Arizona School Won't Use Textbooks

Some Guy writes "A high school in Vail will become the state's first all-wireless, all-laptop public school this fall. The 350 students at the school will not have traditional textbooks. Instead, they will use electronic and online articles as part of more traditional teacher lesson plans."

20 of 491 comments (clear)

  1. Finally! by jhylkema · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Textbook sales are a racket worthy of the Gambino family.

  2. What's wrong with textbooks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All the money is being spent on "tech in schools". At the end of the day, a bad teacher will be bad given a set of textbooks or laptops. Imo, this money should go towards more teacher training/more teachers.

    1. Re:What's wrong with textbooks? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Imo, this money should go towards more teacher training/more teachers.

      Yeah, but mindlessly pissing money down a hole has been touted as the way to fix education for so long, hardly anyone knows how to do anything else, even though it has never worked.

      Hire good teachers. This requires paying a decent salary. Dismantle the teachers' unions, which serve only themselves and are largely responsible for the horrible mess our education system is in, by locking in bad teachers and bad ideas. Hold schools accountable by allowing vouchers, which will force competition.

      Based on my experience as a volunteer teacher and feedback from kids, parents and other teachers, I'm pretty good at it. Kids like me and I like them (and I've got 4 of my own). We communicate well and the kids seem to both learn and have fun. I would love to teach professionally, but I can't afford the huge pay cut and I will never take a job that requires me to join a union.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:What's wrong with textbooks? by GileadGreene · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Won't a bad teacher still be relatively bad given the same training as good teachers?

      Possibly. But the bad teacher will presumably still be better than they were before the training, so the quality of education provided to students will improve. Does putting tech into the classroom actually improve the quality of education, or is it simply change for the sake of change?

      Even if we put money in to raising teacher salaries, hoping to attract better teachers away from other careers, won't we also attract a lot of bad teachers looking for a relatively easy buck?

      The point of raising teacher salaries is to make replacing the current crop of bad teachers with good teachers feasible, by increasing the pool of potential teachers. If there are few or no good teachers available, you have little choice but to hire bad teachers in order to fill your staffing requirements. With more candidates to choose from, you can choose to hire only the good ones.

    3. Re:What's wrong with textbooks? by fm6 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      All the money is being spent on "tech in schools"...
      ...is partly offset in this case by not buying all those overpriced textbooks.

      Here's what's wrong with textbooks: they peddle an oversimplified, predigested, emasculated version of whatever they're trying to teach. You say the solution is better teachers? Good teachers hate textbooks. Good teachers know that the job is to teach student to do actual thinking -- a process not assisted by the unchallenging, anti-thought-provoking crap standard textbooks contain.

      Teachers have been trying trying to find alternatives to textbooks for decades. Thirty-odd years ago, I had a really good high-school history class (20th century U.S.) where the teachers tossed out the textbooks and replaced them with all the serious reading they could legally photocopy. Nowadays, they would just point us at the Internet, and save a lot of time and money in the process.

      Anyway, computers are an essential part of modern education. Aside from computer skills being a basic element of modern literacy, they just do a hell of lot to help with the process. If nothing else, they make writing a lot easier -- I mean jeez, no sane person does real writing by hand or typewriter any more. And writing is two thirds of a real education.

    4. Re:What's wrong with textbooks? by UserChrisCanter4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am a member of a teacher's union. I hate 98% of what they stand for. But $130/year gets me $6 million in liability coverage. When some kid decides to sue for bad grades, sue for "mistreatment" while being taken to the disciplinary office, or accuse me of "touching them" because I failed them, I need that. It happens more frequently than a lot of people would care to imagine, especially the first example. So while I disagree with the teacher's union on a lot of things, I can't afford to take the chance. I'm going to have to have that same kind of coverage from the state before I give up my union membership.

      Incidentally, union memebership is totally optional in most districts.

    5. Re:What's wrong with textbooks? by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i'm convinced that most IT people don't understand the point of their job - provide service to their users so that their users can get their shit done. That means, if you have to research something you don't know (how to get Macs to connect to SMB shares) then get off your fat ass and find out how!!!! Then help your user!

      Having gone through this at the grunt level as well as the management level, I can say that you are 110% correct. Most IT people, especially "paper mill" MCSE's really don't know whay they are . They often seem to think that the network/technology/whatever drives the business, rather than the other way around. With very few exceptions, that is obviously not the case, with their salaries easily in the "cost of doing business" category. This is eaxactly why so many non-techies have such a negative view of techs.

      One of the worst examples I personally witnessed was an underling of mine who decided that the middle of the day, after he finished lunch, would be a good time to clean up the wiring closet. He felt no need to notify users, and seemed to not understand why this was a problem (at a web-based software development company, where 90% of the employees were testing code on machines that they damn well needed the network to get to).

      And one more: A software developer at at a different job who I assigned to write a piece of software (almost....nothing more than an Access app) to assist in expediting a daily paperwork nightmare (ACH to/from several accounts....all source destination information already available electronically). I told him to go sit down with the girl who did it and lear how she does her job and exactly what she needed. His response was "I don't need to know how to do her job to write that." My response was, "See that door? Don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out."

      --
      Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
  3. No Match for books. by sacbhale · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This should be an interesting experiment.
    I have had computers for years and I use them extensively to learn things but I have found that they are no match for good old books. Books are so much convenient to use.
    I think it is unwise to completely eliminate the books from clasrooms. It would be great to augment the books with online resources. But replacing them completely seems to be a dumb move.

  4. My deepest fear: text changing on the fly by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imagin the power government will weld when they can change education text of our children on the fly to suit the preveiling views of the government.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    1. Re:My deepest fear: text changing on the fly by Meshach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is actually a very good point

      Tin foil hat on

      Anyone who has ever read 1984 knows that this is one of the hallmarks of a controlled society. As soon as a book can (untraceably) be edited much objectivity is lost

      Hat off

      This is a good money saving idea. And it will save paper and make it easier to do homework from home

      I am torn

      --
      "Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
      Aldous Huxley
  5. Re:Go Arizona! by cato+kaze · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What does technology, in the form of laptops, have to do with a good education? As a HS senior, the most productive learning experiance I've had has come from quality teachers that have an intrest in teaching rather than just moving students through the system and crunching points. I'd feel a whole lot better of my school put more money into training and acquiring good teachers that some nearly useless technology that is just a crutch.

    --
    Those who study history are doomed to watch others repeat it.
  6. Re:EPaper by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sure they'll still charge $200, only now it will be for a 1 year license rather than this year's edition.

  7. Re:Umm... vision? by rwven · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they'll be about as far away from their eyes as the books they were reading last year... i highly doubt this will be an issue...

  8. what a dumb idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "hey, let's replace $60 worth of books with $600 worth of fragile computer gear. I'm sure no one will drop one or anything."

  9. I've a bad feeling about this. by Linker3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why does my '25 years in IT' brain shudder at the prospect of this? In a nanosecond the following flashed through my consciousness:

    Dropped it, flat batteries, can't see it in the sun, viruses, forgot to backup, stolen, central server outage, corrupt file, server cracked, can't type that fast, wifi down, wifi overloaded, forgot my password, not enough power sockets in the room, pulled off desk by someone tripping over power cable, broken keycaps, spilled drink on it, fighting for printer time, someone took my USB memory stick, unauthorised upgrade...I'm going pale at the thought!

    --
    AT&ROFLMAO
  10. What about Content? by PogieMT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems like the superintendent promoting this and many of the posts here are ignoring a fundamental problem: content. While it is nice to write about how great e-texts would be, it's not as if publishers are going to give that material away, even if it exists. So the cost of textbooks will still be there. Additionally, the answer to better education away from the textbook doesn't seem to be taking away books, which, as it turns out, can be valuable resources. The answer would seem to be giving teachers better training and forcing them to be accountable. In my experience as a teacher, the answer has never been a different avenue for transmittal of information, it has been a better transmitter.

  11. This is a terrible idea by jim_v2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whoever thought the idea of give laptops to highschoolers must never have worked with any. I remember from my days in highschool. The kids are a destructive force. If it can be broken or stolen, it will be. I mean, seriously, how long until these things start getting stolen and showing up on Ebay? How do they prevent that from happening? Also, how do you stop some hormonely charged punk from getting mad and throwing a laptop on the ground? You know that it won't take but a day for some kid to forget that he's got a laptop in his backpack when he's throwing it in his locker. Books on the other hand don't break, and aren't hot items to sell. (College books are another story)

    Plus I can see all kinds of new excuses...like I got a virus! Or my batteries died! Or Windows crashed/Clippy ate my paper! Books don't lose power, don't get virus, don't crash.

    In the end, considering the group in questions (Highschoolers) books seem like the better solution. Plus, if a system isn't broken, why fix it? Books have been working for a long time, and can for a long time to come.

    --
    Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
  12. Re:Racket! by Catbeller · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, the solution is to create an honest-to-god ebook solution: a hundred dollar lcd non-backlit cheapo unit, like a larger palm, the size of a piece of notebook paper, with an ethernet jack for transfering files in and out of non-volatile memory. It should run on AAA cells. It should be strong enough to survive a fall. Steel is cheap. Mass production would drive costs down -- how many students are there? tens of millions.

    Laptops are simply Microsoft and Intel's way of locking in customers forever. eBooks do not need a bloody laptop. I'd imagine the publishers love the new hardware DRM being built into the laptops' chipsets by Intel.

    Why isn't someone building a cheap, useful ebook? ... lawsuits from publishers?

  13. Change the way we teach by jfengel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    (I'm about to leave the office for my "second job" as a Shakespearean actor, so you kinda pushed the button. Sorry.)

    Shakespeare (and literature in general) needs to be taught more like physics (wait, hear me out) and less like history and biology are usually taught. The goal isn't whether you can read the text and translate it well enough to figure out who killed Mercutio. The goal is to develop an appreciation for the process of reading, and for the pleasures of literature.

    Just throwing somebody the e-text isn't sufficient, but just throwing a copy of the Penguin edition and telling them to have it read by next Wednesday isn't substantially better. For Shakespeare, read it out loud. Don't just have them read it to each other, at least not at first, because they don't know what's going on.

    That's actually something that could be done better with the laptop. It's a multimedia device. Let them hear actors reading, or watch actors performing. Good actors can make the page come alive far better than a high school freshman can. That's their job.

    Using the laptop as a substitute for paper is worthless. But there are some great ways to start with the laptop and use it to change the way we teach. That's my rant for literature, but expand the thinking to watching demonstrations of physics, or using a fly-through 3D model of a plant in biology.

    I would love to be able to have a high school senior pick up a copy of Hamlet and be able to truly understand it, but only once you've given him or her the basics. I certainly don't expect a freshman to be able to do more with Romeo and Juliet than look up the hard words in the footnotes and try to parse the syntax. Which means that they're reading all the words and missing everything that's really there, and they'll never do any better with Hamlet three years later.

    If all they can do is tell you that Laertes' father is Polonius, you've wasted their time and yours. But if they've seen Laertes overwhelming rage and blame for Hamlet, and they have some idea why it sounds so awesome when he says, "I would cut his throat in the church," you've really accomplished something.

  14. Re:Racket! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, the solution is to create an honest-to-god ebook solution: a hundred dollar lcd non-backlit cheapo unit, like a larger palm, the size of a piece of notebook paper, with an ethernet jack for transfering files in and out of non-volatile memory. It should run on AAA cells. It should be strong enough to survive a fall. Steel is cheap. Mass production would drive costs down -- how many students are there? tens of millions.

    Why isn't someone building a cheap, useful ebook? ... lawsuits from publishers?


    If you can make it work, go ahead. People have been trying to make a viable electronic book for the past twenty years.

    From what I remember of the failed attempts: PDAs and notebooks in 1995 sold many "ruggedized" variants: the kind that could stand a (single) three foot drop onto concrete, or partial or total immersion in water. These versions tended to be four to five times the cost of a "non-ruggedized" version.

    The cost of steel wasn't the limiting factor; shock resistant hard drives tended to be, though. Weight was also a limiting factor; by using titanium instead of steel, Palm is able to cut the weight of their cases in half (plus make them look cooler :-) ).

    It's a non-trivial task to design a viewing system that

    (a) is dirt cheap,
    (b) looks good in multiple lighting conditions,
    (c) is damage resistant.

    You want "cheap" and "good" at the same time? Well, then, like the engineering rule says, you've ruled out "fast". Prepare to wait a long time to get what you want. I should know: I've wanted a decent pda/electronic paper solution for 20 years now. Palm pilots are the closest I've seen yet, and they've got a long way to go...

    --
    AC