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60th Anniversary of the Atomic Bomb

An anonymous reader writes "On July 16, 1945, the world's first nuclear bomb exploded at Trinity Site, New Mexico, marking the beginning of the Nuclear Age. Manhattan Project veteran Herb Lehr has no regrets: 'In a lot of respects I felt as if I had done something worthwhile. I am in no way ashamed of what I had done in any way, shape, matter or form. I did what I was told to do. I did it to the best of my ability.' Lehr will return to Trinity Site for the first time since the explosion. He said, 'I'm just interested in going and seeing it and maybe getting some memories back. Los Alamos was a whole interesting experience. It was something unique. I worked very hard down there.'"

79 of 559 comments (clear)

  1. Word on whether the birthday child will attend? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's going to be the bomb!

  2. Note by simonharvey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For thoes people who are interested in building their own, here is a primer

    Good Luck

    1. Re:Note by beacher · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I actually found this atom bomb instruction set to be a little more detailed. Any instructions that include
      "Please remember that Plutonium, especially pure, refined Plutonium, is somewhat dangerous. Wash your hands with soap and warm water after handling the material, and don't allow your children or pets to play in it or eat it."

      or "Now hide the completed device from the neighbors and children. The garage is not recommended because of high humidity and the extreme range of temperatures experienced there. Nuclear devices have been known to spontaneously detonate in these unstable conditions. The hall closet or under the kitchen sink will be perfectly suitable."

      definately have the end user in mind. It's these thoughtful tips that make this probably the best DIY WMD kit! /sarcasm>

    2. Re:Note by Elkboy · · Score: 4, Funny

      "If it does detonate, remember to duck and cover." "Afterwards, shadows burned into walls will make great conversation pieces at parties. Arming your car and grow a crazy Mad Max-hairdo will help you and your family prosper in the nuclear wasteland."

    3. Re:Note by spruce · · Score: 2, Funny

      "If you've become a radiation mutant with a deformed hand, remember to close the window. No one wants to see that."

      US Deparment of Laughts

  3. End of an era by LividBlivet · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In some sort of crude sense, which no vulgarity, no humor, no overstatement can quite extinguish, the physicists have known sin; and this is a knowledge which they cannot lose. JRO

  4. As it hasn't been said yet... by RRRussian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    WTF!!!

    Lehr said it is unfortunate the bombs were used for war.

    Sooo, what were you expecting, thermonuclear noisemakers?

    Seriously, whenever someone tries to justify something truely horrific, it always comes out as the most asinine comment one could make, under those circumstances.

    Much like this one...

    1. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They could have put all the politicians and lawyers in one place and used it there.

    2. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by kaosrain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most of the people on that team did not want the bomb actually used before Japan was given a chance to see the capability that it gave the United States. The majority believed that this would be the case--the mere display of such power would get Japan to surrender, not getting a firsthand perspective by being hit twice.

    3. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by Mahou · · Score: 3, Insightful

      unfortunate and unexpected are two totally different things

      --
      if i'm not immortal, what's the point of living?
      ...te?
    4. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Sooo, what were you expecting, thermonuclear noisemakers?"

      Actually, thermonuclear weapons have been considered for use in civil engineering construction (like digging canals, mining, and underground cisterns) to aerospace (like spacecraft propulsion). Of course, that was back in days while the USA was still conducting above ground nuclear tests -- when nuclear radiation was compared to "sunshine units". Uncle Sam had an impressive "spin machine" back then.

    5. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by BrynM · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sooo, what were you expecting, thermonuclear noisemakers?
      The big debate is example. Imagine if the US had blown up a small ghost town or uninhabited island - maybe even right next to Japan and said "surrender now or this will happen to you." There's a peaeful means to every quetion. Flame me for that if you want, but it's a simple truth.
      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    6. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by Zarhan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope. B-29 was the first bomber that could fly really high (indeed, USAF discovered jet stream when they first flew at those heights), and japanese had no AA equipment that could deal with them at 30000+ feet.

      Altough, actually most of the air raids with B-29's were done at low altitudes - japanese had 88 mm AA cannons, so they could not turn fast enough for low-altitude bombing. This saved fuel and allowed for higher payloads (and also prevented some engine troubles - flying at high altitudes caused overheating problems).

      So yeah, that demo could have been done without any problems for subsequent real droppings.

    7. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by Phil06 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Politicians are compromisers. To get anything done in a democracy requires compromise. If you think compromise is a weakness, go try authoritarianism.

      If everyone just agreed, we wouldn't need lawyers, or politicians.

      --
      "...and yet, I blame society" Duke - Repo Man
    8. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 2, Funny

      I agree with you. Lately, it seems they have had to compromise their morals:

      Do I stay honorable and defend the public, or do I get insanely wealthy by selling out to the corporations? Well, I think I'll sell out!

      See? There's compromise right there!

    9. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What planet do you live on? They did see the effects once and still didn't surrender. That's the US had to use a second bomb!

    10. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't you mean the Mitsubishi Shipyards at Hiroshima? I'll give you Nagasaki, as the original target was Kokura, but there was cloud cover, so the target was changed. Still, Nagasaki had huge shipyards, and, thus, a great port that could be used for military purposes.

    11. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by PakProtector · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also, as I forgot to add before I hit the submit button, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not 'mostly' civilian targets. They would be like saying Colorado Springs is a Civilian Target when it sits practically ontop of NORAD.

      "At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable military significance. It contained the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops." That's straight from the wikipedia page Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a page often cited by persons arguing against the dropping of the bombs.

      And Nagasaki itself was a valuable military target, quoting again the same wikipage: "The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials."

      The fact was that a good deal of people were evacuated from the city before the atomic bombing due to a previous bombing on the First of August of more conventional explosive ordinance.

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    12. Re:As it hasn't been said yet... by stonedonkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      I like this wiki better. It talks about how Japan was already devastated by firebombing, a fact which Robert S. McNamara finally admits in the recent Fog of War documentary.

      "The first firebombing raid was on Kobe on February 3, 1945, and following its relative success the USAAF continued the tactic. Much of the armor and defensive weaponry of the bombers was also removed to allow increased bomb loads; Japanese air defense in terms of night-fighters and anti-aircraft guns was so feeble it was hardly a risk. The first such raid on Tokyo was on the night of February 23-24 when 174 B-29s destroyed around one square mile (3 km) of the city. Following on that success 334 B-29s raided on the night of March 9-10, dropping around 1,700 tons of bombs. Around 16 square miles (41 km) of the city was destroyed and over 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the fire storm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. It was the most destructive conventional raid of the war against Japan. In the following two weeks there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km) in total at a cost of only 22 aircraft. There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26."

      There was plenty enough conventional massacre by the time Fat Man and Little Boy rolled around, my friend. Japan wasn't a virgin isle of paradise when the two nukes dropped. It was a war-torn, bombed out nation. Fog of War documents it to numbing effect.

      There's a lot of history that America doesn't teach its children.

  5. His moral? by scarlac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's strange to see how he's arguing that he doesn't feel ashamed (a moral feeling) and he argues that he was instructed to do so, so that makes it morally legitimate? He must be a bureaucrat.

  6. Whenever I play a game of Civilization by John+Seminal · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Whenever any civilization completes the Manhatten project, the game pretty much sucks. Everyone wants to nuke everyone else. It becomes hard to build a nation when every city must hault production on whatever it was doing to build a Star Wars Defense system.

    I wonder what will happen in the next 50 years, as most countries should have nukes by then. It will not matter how wealthy a country is, their diplomats will smile and say "Defended by Nuclear Weapons". We are already there with North Korea, all that is missing for them is long range missles to deliver those Nukes to far away places.

    Imagine smaller nations nuking each other. Does anyone think that Iran and Iraq would not have nuked each other in the 1980's when they had a decade long war? Or what about Israel, how many different nations want to nuke them?? And how would foriegn policy of Israel be different if the palestinians had Nukes? Would the Israeli government treat them any better?

    And I can see former soviet union states getting Nukes. It could get to be messy. What country keeps setting off bombs in Moscow? Uzbekestan or is it Checkizstan. The Chenyans I think. I am too lazy to look it up at the moment, but I believe they are the ones who took a theater filled with people hostage and then killed a bunch of them, and the same people who took a school of 1000+ hostage and killed half the elementary school kids. They held a bunch of 6 to 11 year olds for 4 or 5 days without water or food. If someone can torture another human like that, setting off a nuke probably would make them loose sleep.

    Will there be no wars in the future if everyone has nukes, because everyone will be scared of starting a major conflict? Or will it be like the game Civilization where as soon as everyone has nukes, they use them?? At least our leaders have deep bunkers. In 20 years when the radiation clears, they can come out of the bunkers and start the game all over.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    1. Re:Whenever I play a game of Civilization by SlightOverdose · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "What country keeps setting off bombs in Moscow? Uzbekestan or is it Checkizstan. The Chenyans I think. I am too lazy to look it up at the moment, but I believe they are the ones who took a theater filled with people hostage and then killed a bunch of them"

      Chechnya

    2. Re:Whenever I play a game of Civilization by frostman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What country keeps setting off bombs in Moscow? Uzbekestan or is it Checkizstan. The Chenyans I think.

      You have a point, but the above quote says a lot too. Even for someone who presumably has some interest in history and international politics (you are playing Civilization), these conflicts are just vague blips on your radar.

      The Chechens in Chechnya don't have it easy, and the kind of sick extremist terrorism that gave us the school bombing in Russia is the only thing you (sort of) remember.

      This is unfortunately a pretty typical attitude when the conflict is far away. Is it any wonder everyone wants The Bomb?

      By the way, until Prague is relocated far to the east, you can get an overview at WikiPedia.

      --

      This Like That - fun with words!

    3. Re:Whenever I play a game of Civilization by MvD_Moscow · · Score: 2, Informative
      Typical American view on 'conflicts that don't involve me'. While the terrorist acts committed by the Chechen rebels are certainly monstrous, you must consider that the Russian forces in Chechnya a re no better. Of course, systematic abuse by Russian forces doesn't get on to prime time TV, but that doesn't make it any less horrific. The real terrorists are the Russian forces and Russian society that is unable and/or unwilling to oppose the government and defy their bullshit propaganda.

      http://www.fidh.org/europ/rapport/2002/che328a.pdf - a nice overview of Russian crimes in Chechnya.

      P.S. Before posting, try understanding who/what you are talking about. Confusing Uzbekistan and Chechnya (and making up 'Checkizstan') is pathetic.

  7. Lehr is right by Travoltus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Had the US not developed and deployed the bomb, someone else would have been the first to use it.

    Questions about our righteousness in nuking Japan (who themselves slaughtered even more civilians in Nanking than we killed with 2 A-bombs) will never die, but I'm confident that the US getting the bomb before China, the USSR and other nations, made it possible for us to scare everyone into not using them again.

    We sure as heck could not have ended the war with harsh insults in Japanese... a direct invasion would have cost millions of lives and left Russia open to join in. Ask the Germans what happened when the Soviet men came into Berlin, and overlay that disaster onto Tokyo...

    This isn't meant as a troll or flamebait, seriously, I think millions of lives were saved, perhaps billions.

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    1. Re:Lehr is right by Max_Abernethy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. Set off bomb in an unpopulated area where it will be seen but not kill so many people.
      2. Explain to emperor hirohito that he has to cut this shit out or the next one is dropping on a city.

      I don't understand why it was necessary to actually kill all those civilians. The whole point was to make a show of force, wasn't it? I think a warning shot would've been enough.

    2. Re:Lehr is right by vandan · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This is the common excuse for dropping 2 nuclear weapons on cities full of civilians, yes.

      Unfortunately it's about as full as truth as everything else that comes out of the US government.

      The Japanese were crushed 6 months prior to the end of WWII. They had no energy. They were desperately trying to negotiate an unconditional surrender. The US govt, however, saw this as a dandy opportunity to assert their absolute military supremacy on the international stage.

      But even if we ignore the fact that Japan were more than ready to surrender, I still find it absolutely absurd that people ( and usually American people - there is a particular irony here of course ) argue that they have the right to drop atomic weapons on civilians to bring 'peace' to the world, yet other countries aren't even allowed to possess nuclear weapons.

      The thing about rules is that they have to be applied equally. Following your argument to it's logical conclusion, and assuming that all people are 'created equal under God', then the Iraqi people had every right to possess nuclear, chemical and biological weapons ... for the same reasons as the US can possess them.

      Now I'm not meaning to come down on you particularly hard ... you at least admit that there is controversy surrounding the US nuking fest. I'm just pointing out that you have to take a clear, principled stance on the issue, and defending the US's 'right' to use nuclear weapons, while being wrong in itself, also opens a very ugly can of worms when the argument is projected onto others.

      Had the US not developed and deployed the bomb, someone else would have been the first to use it.

      I certainly have to take issue with this argument. This is exactly the argument companies like BAE Systems, Raytheon etc want to hear people put forward. Proliferation. It won't do us any good. Sure someone *could* always build a bigger, 'better' weapon. But who always does? And what good does it do the world? Look around you at your civil liberties being eroded in the name of the 'war on terror' - and of course the hundreds of thousands of innocent people that are killed, locked up, tortured, etc. This is a direct result of the incredible inequality between the US's weapons and everyone elses ... combined of course with the US's foreign policy. Are bigger weapons doing us any better on this front? No. Is the world more dangerous with nuclear proliferation? I don't think anyone who seriously thinks this through can say proliferation makes the world a safer or better place.
  8. Recommended books by October_30th · · Score: 2, Informative
    To anyone who is interested in the history of the atomic and hydrogen bomb, I'd recommend the following books by Richard Rhodes:

    "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" ISBN 0-684-81378-5

    and

    "Dark Sun - The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb" ISBN 0-684-82414-0

    Both books are fascinating, containing depictions of both human elements and the physics/engineering side of the atomic weapons. As an example of the former, I found it very interesting to read about SAC nuts like LeMay and his concept of a Sunday Punch strategy.

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Recommended books by Tackhead · · Score: 2, Informative
      >> To anyone who is interested in the history of the atomic and hydrogen bomb, I'd recommend the following books by Richard Rhodes:
      >>
      >>"The Making of the Atomic Bomb" ISBN 0-684-81378-5
      >>and
      >>"Dark Sun - The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb" ISBN 0-684-82414-0
      >
      >"100 Suns" by Michael Light (ISBN 1400041139) is an excellent collection of "terrifyingly beautiful" nuclear test photographs.

      I'll see you those three books and raise you one museum.

      The next time you're in Las Vegas, go to the Atomic Testing Museum. Unlike Trinity Site (and unlike the Nevada Test Site), the museum is open to the public at all times. No prior arrangements are necessary to visit.

      Admission is the geekiest $10 you'll spend in Vegas. There's also an incredible bookstore (which has all three of the books mentioned, plus the entire set of Peter Kuran DVDs) on the way out.

      The pictures on the museum's website give you the general idea. Although you can (and if they're old enough to understand what atoms are, you probably should) take your kids, this is primarily a museum made by, for, and on behalf of engineers.

      If you held certain clearances, and you wanted to show your family what you did within the limits of your oath, this museum is a good place to show them. If your parents or spouse never talked about their work before they died, and you always wondered what they were doing and why they were doing it, this museum is a good place to find out.

      And if you hold no clearances at all, but are just a random geek who wants to appreciate the engineering genius of those who did, this museum is perhaps the only place to do so.

      The politics are kept to an absolute minimum; it's about the history and the technology.

  9. obligatory Ozzy quote by Stormwatch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Thank God for the Bomb"
    Ozzy Osbourne

    --------------------

    Like moths to a flame
    Is man never gonna change
    Time's seen untold aggression
    And infliction of pain
    If that's the only thing that's stopping war

    Then thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb

    Nuke ya nuke ya

    War is just another game
    Tailor made for the insane
    But make a threat of their annihilation
    And nobody wants to play
    If that's the only thing that keeps the peace

    Then thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb

    Nuke ya nuke ya

    Today was tommorow yesterday
    It's funny how the time can slip away
    The face of the doomsday clock
    Has launched a thousand wars
    As we near the final hour
    Time is the only foe we have

    When war is obsolete
    I'll thank God for war's defeat
    But any talk about hell freezing over
    Is all said with tongue in cheek
    Until the day the war drums beat no more

    I'll thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb
    Thank God for the bomb

    Nuke ya nuke ya

    --------------------

    (Ozzy Osbourne/Jake E. Lee)

  10. Einstein by Malfourmed · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Herb Lehr has no regrets, which is his right. On the other hand Einstein said
    "I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made."
    and
    "The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."
    1. Re:Einstein by BrynM · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The lesser of all evils, eh?
      "Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity," Einstein once remarked, "and I'm not sure about the former." Something for your pipe. Smoke it well.
      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    2. Re:Einstein by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And maybe we'd all be speaking German and drinking Schnapps. Or sake.

      While I'm not going to say that the use of the atomic bomb was immoral, given the circumstances, the construction of the atomic bomb was not what caused Japan or Germany to lose the war. As advanced as it was, I really don't believe that Japan's atomic bomb project would have been able to offer Japan any kind of shot at victory.

      Perhaps the bomb ended the war a little faster.

      Perhaps if the resources that went into building cyclotrons had gone for conventional bombs and planes instead, the war would have ended quicker.

      Probably without nukes at the end of WWII, the cold war would have proceeded differently.

      The US would have wanted to enlist the help of the Chineese and Russians in invading Japan, which those nations would have eagerly given after all the death and shame Japan had visited upon them.
      More than anything, without the bomb the Japanese would probably be speaking Pu Tong Hua or Russian.

      Things could have gone differently, sure.

      But the bomb was not what made Japan or Germany lose the war.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  11. Do what you are told to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How I hate the sentence "I did what I was told to do". Everybody should check the orders against his conscience, no matter where they come from.

    It is this attitude that made WWII, or better the nazi regime, possible in the first place. And everyone living with that attitude is, in my eyes, a coward, who is too afraid to think for himself.

    How else could you explain that, by order of the DOD, soldiers were forced to remain close to the detonation to check for its impact on human beeings, while it was well known for years that there were long-term illnesses caused by it.

    1. Re:Do what you are told to do by Ann+Elk · · Score: 2, Insightful
      How I hate the sentence "I did what I was told to do". Everybody should check the orders against his conscience, no matter where they come from.

      It's easy to get self-righteous when you have the benefit of 60 years hindsight.

  12. "I did what I was told to do." by under_score · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Poor excuse, not acceptable in war crimes trials. Read some of the quotes here.

    1. Re:"I did what I was told to do." by dedazo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yes, yes. Excellent parallel. Depleted uranium, yes. Identical to concentration camps, industrial genocide, etc. Yes.

      Thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
  13. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by bogaboga · · Score: 2, Interesting

    An interesting read. I wish I had mod points. On another note, the USA does not want other nations to have the nuclear capability because they (the USA) does not have a means to disable or defend itself against the weapon. We simply cannot stop a nuclear bomb's devastating effects. So we pump up the rhetoric to prevent others from acquiring these weapons. Remember, we do not destroy our own. By the way, is it true that the most deadly nuclear weapons are actually produced by Russia?

  14. Richard Feynman by John+Seminal · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Lehr said it is unfortunate the bombs were used for war.

    Seriously, whenever someone tries to justify something truely horrific, it always comes out as the most asinine comment one could make, under those circumstances.

    This is a question that I have wondered for some time, as I have read his books.

    It seems that many of the people who helped build the atomic bomb were later pushed out of any talk about how the bomb was to be used. Oppenheimer lost his top secret clerance and was labled a communist by the FBI. Some in government wanted to jail or kill him, they were worried he would defect to the Soviet Union in the 1960's. I think Senator McCarthy had public statements about wanting to see Oppenheimer jailed.

    If there is a team of 3 or 4 that is 90% responsible for building the worlds worst weapon, should they have a say if it is used? Or do they lose that right when the finish making it? Without them, the bomb could never have been made. It seems like a huge burden to have for life, knowing your creation killed so many people.

    And why did the USA need to drop 2 bombs on Japan? Didn't the first one do enough to scare the crap out of them? How far was Truman ready to go? Kill every Japanese person on the earth.

    And didn't the USA during WWII jail every American citizen that looked Japanese by force, even if they never broke any laws?

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    1. Re:Richard Feynman by b17bmbr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's is, and there's going to be more here, historical revisionism. Suffice to say there were several reasons:

      1) marianas, iwo jima and okinawa. a friend's dad served on iwo and saipan. hell would be a gentle term. plus, i've read volumes. the fighting was unlike anything in the history of warfare. we'd have had 100X worse on japanese mainland. we expected 1 million allied casualties, and probably 10-20 million japanese. so it's lincoln's "terrible arithmetic" multiplied by 100.

      2) russia. sure, we were their ally, but we all knew what they were, what they were going to do, and we wanted to send a message. if the rosenbergs (yes they were soviet spies) not given up the bomb, we'd have been in a totally different situation. we had to let them know they were well behind the curve. and yes we allowed many nazi scientists off the hook, that's not the point.

      3) japan didn't surrender after bomb #1. and in fact, didn't after bomb #2. remember, the bombs were aug. 6 and aug. 9, they surrendered after the soviets invaded sakhalin and not until aug. 15. in fact, if you check, we actually had a bomber raid on aug. 10, and i believe aug. 12. ironic is that the communications were severed between the emperor (who wanted to surrender) and the military (who didn't). the militray was actualyl coming to the palace to arrest the emp and hold him so he couldn;t surrender. we didn't know this until much later. however, two nukes, two more B29 raids, and still no surrender.

      4) politics. we were getting really tired of the war. europe was well over, domestic life was returning to normal, and yet 10,000 were dying on okinawa. how many more thousands were the public going to send? truman knew the war must end. and soon.

      most of the second guessing has come from succeeding generations that had the luxury of self-relection that on;y peace can bring. like the greeks, it is our freedom that allows to us to be hyper-critical of ourselves (like a sophocles or aristophanes). we did much that we view as oppressive (japanese internement) yet at the time was wholly palatable by the large body of people. times change and so do cultures. but i think it is poor history and a worse morality play to go back and make assumptions about the bomb. look at japan today. not that 2 nukes are a tradeoff for a peaceful and free society (ah moral equivalency), but consider this:

      40 years after the sedan the french were screaming revanche and we got ypres and verdun. 40 years after hiroshima, the japanese were not and we got toyotas.

      --
      My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    2. Re:Richard Feynman by learn+fast · · Score: 5, Informative

      most of the second guessing has come from succeeding generations that had the luxury of self-relection...

      "Prof. Albert Einstein... said that he was sure that President Roosevelt would have forbidden the atomic bombing of Hiroshima had he been alive and that it was probably carried out to end the Pacific war before Russia could participate." --Einstein Deplores Use of Atom Bomb, New York Times, 8/19/46, pg. 1

      "...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

      "During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..." -- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate for Change

      "...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." -- Dwight Eisenhower, Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

      On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, [Herbert] Hoover wrote to Army and Navy Journal publisher Colonel John Callan O'Laughlin, "The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul." -- quoted from Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.

      "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed. ... When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." -- Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

    3. Re:Richard Feynman by b17bmbr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From what I've read, Japan was training women and children with wooden spears, farm implements, anything they could get their hands on. They were preparing to wage a guerilla war that would make the insurgency in Iraq look like child's play. Imagine the propects of 19 y/o Marines having to machine gun women and children. Remember the Japanese island straegy after the fall of the marianas and the beginning of bombardment from the 20th AF. It was a fatalistsic, "we can't win, but we can make them bleed dearly for every inch" strategy. The cost in lives was mounting island by island. They were willing to trade life for life. They were planning on making us bleed to death. I'm sorry, I know Ike and many others were squishy over othe bomb, but I still think it was justified.

      consider this as well: we killed far more in March over Tokyo with the firebombings than we did at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In fact, it was LeMay who said that give him another month or two of bombing and there'd be nothing left in Japan to bomb. Now, we could have conceivably killed another 200,000 or more with more firebombing, and we'd not have the stigma of the atomic bomb. Fine. But I do think it's a little presumptuous for us to think that there lots of alternatives. I just don't there were many. Japan's moved on, perhaps we should too.

      --
      My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    4. Re:Richard Feynman by line.at.infinity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) marianas, iwo jima and okinawa.

      After the battle of Okinawa killed off 30 percent of the civilian population there, the US had already secured Okinawa, marianas, and Iwojima. Dropping the atomic bomb came months afterwards.

      2) russia. sure, we were their ally, but we all knew what they were, what they were going to do, and we wanted to send a message. if the rosenbergs (yes they were soviet spies) not given up the bomb, we'd have been in a totally different situation.

      The rosenburgs could not have been used as part of the reasoning or justification for the use of the bomb when they were discovered to be spies after the war ended. Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill seem to have an awfully big grin on their faces in a joint photo that they've taken..

      3) japan didn't surrender after bomb #1...

      The fact that the bombs didn't have the power to bring Japan to immediate surrender (e.g. next day surrender) seems to go against one of the few touted strategic benefits of it, which is that it brings a rapid end to war by showing off military might. If the US could wait as they did after the Nagasaki detonation, couldn't they have waited more after the Hiroshima detonation and perhaps seen the war come to an end without the city of Nagasaki and the thousands of innocent civilians in it incinerated? And couldn't they have dropped it on a place with little to no civilian population instead of Hiroshima, if the main objective of using it was to show US military might?

      4) politics. we were getting really tired of the war.

      Yeah, and Hitler was really getting tired of Jews and homosexuals...

      40 years after the sedan the french were screaming revanche and we got ypres and verdun. 40 years after hiroshima, the japanese were not and we got toyotas.

      Even if US victory was good, that doesn't justify the use of the atomic bomb.

      The US always says remember Pearl Harbor, remember 9-11, but neither were attacks on residential zones or as sustained an attack as ones experienced in other parts of the world. The US is the world's single super power yet it has not been the target of the the same level of tragedy it is capable of inflicting.

      The sorry thing about nuclear weapons is that they're not useful strategically because conventional explosives already can be used effectively on strategic targets. Nuclear weapons now thousands of times more powerful than the one dropped on Hiroshima are only good for genocide.

  15. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The actual physics involved in building a bomb will be covered by any standard undergraduate physics course. Thats not the tricky bit. It gets difficult when the recipe called for a few kgs of U235 or Pu-239. Even if you could get your hands on some Uranium you would still have to process it to extract the fissile U235 from the U233, requiring all kinds of highly restricted and monitored hardware.

  16. Re:60? by joke_dst · · Score: 5, Funny
    Hey! Don't look down on 60 just because of your "hey, I've got ten fingers! let's use a decimal system"-thinking!

    60 happens to be the base of the Babylonian number system and the second Unitary perfect number. You insensitive clod.

  17. One Big Birthday Candle by Quirk · · Score: 3, Funny

    They have set us up the bomb all your base are belong to us

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
  18. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by John+Seminal · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So we pump up the rhetoric to prevent others from acquiring these weapons. Remember, we do not destroy our own. By the way, is it true that the most deadly nuclear weapons are actually produced by Russia?

    There was a news program on TV, maybe nightline, which went to Russia to ask how much of their nuclear program has been dismantled. The anwser was not much. It is expensive to take apart nuclear missiles and store the rods. Plus, it is an attractive target for thieves. It can get good money on the black market. Look at Osama, he is worth how much money? 100 million dollars. I am sure he would buy nuclear material if he could. How tempting is that for someone who works for Russia, you get your boss, maybe a security gaurd and another worker together, and split 60 million dollars 3 ways. Could someone who sold a nuclear rod, with 20+ million dollars dissapear off the face of the earth, to some carribian resort to live out their lives sipping mixed drinks while suntanning?

    I don't think the USA will destroy their nukes in our times. But I think the USA nukes will become a problem. How are they controlled?? It takes an order from the president to launch an attack, but how is that order communicated? If someone figures that out, could there be an accidental launch? What if at a silo, a crazy Air Force colonel decides to take his silo into lockdown, no communication in or out. He then conveys a presidential order to launch. Can he get away with it? And what about nukes that are on air force jets, how are they launched? Could the pilot decide to launch his nuke? Or on a submarine. We have many of them with nukes. Remember the movie where the one sub gets its communications broken, but the skipper believes he is ordered to launch a nuke? Could that happen?

    For every nuclear bomb the USA has, it must be very expensive maintaining that nuclear bomb and keeping it secure.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  19. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by rjh · · Score: 2, Interesting
    What was the name of that chinese scientist who got sent to jail??
    Wen Ho Lee. The case against him crumbled in a major way. He plead guilty to one minor count, and the government quickly trumpeted this as a victory. At sentencing, Dr. Lee was sentenced to time served and was released with the court's apologies. The judge was clearly of the opinion that Dr. Lee had been treated shamefully by the prosecution.
    I remember reading that most of the Uranium in the world was in Africa
    Don't believe everything you read. Uranium is found damn near everywhere: granite, gravel... uranium is cheap and available from many different sources.
    How difficult is [refining] to detect?
    Short answer: very. We didn't know the North Koreans were refining plutonium until they claimed to have a nuke. We didn't know about the Iranian refining program until Iranian exile groups came forward with the information.

  20. oh no! by Jetboy01 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Herb Lehr set up us the bomb!

  21. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by rock_climbing_guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm fond of a certain commentator's comment that despite all of the "disarmament agreements" we've had, the only way to get rid of nuclear weapons is to use them.

    --
    Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
  22. But you are wrong by Knome_fan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Had the US not developed and deployed the bomb, someone else would have been the first to use it."

    Ah, what a nice "argument". You can't of course know if someone else would have used it, but stating it as a fact seems such a great justification for US action, doesn't it?

    Besides, I hope you never have to stand before a court of law, because believe me, these hypothetical arguments are not going to impress the judge.

    "Questions about our righteousness in nuking Japan (who themselves slaughtered even more civilians in Nanking than we killed with 2 A-bombs) will never die, but I'm confident that the US getting the bomb before China, the USSR and other nations, made it possible for us to scare everyone into not using them again."

    Gee, it's great that you are confident about it. I'm sure those who died because of the bombs would be delighted to hear it.

    "We sure as heck could not have ended the war with harsh insults in Japanese... a direct invasion would have cost millions of lives and left Russia open to join in."
    Jesus, at least get your facts straight. Russia did join the war against Japan which prompted Truman to his famous words, that that meant: Finis Japan!

    About the bombs saving millions of lives, this argument has been refuted so many times already that it's really embarassing to bring it up again. The first problem with your argument is that it doesn't take the situatuion at the time into account. Japan was already trying hard to find a way to surrender. This was one of the reasons that people like Eisenhower thought it was a grave mistake, to say at least, to drop the bombs.

    It also doesn't take into account that the estimates on which those who decided to drop the bombs operated in no way support the notion that millions would be killed should an invasion indeed occur. It's in fact quite funny that the estimates at the time were speaking of thousands of deaths (terrible enough, but not millions), then after the war the number of half a million lives saved was the official justification, only to be extended to a million and now to several millions.

    "Ask the Germans what happened when the Soviet men came into Berlin, and overlay that disaster onto Tokyo..."
    As I'm German myself I'm well aware of what happened when the Soviets came into Berlin and though a lot of things were terrible you can rest assured that people in Germany consider themselves very lucky to not have been subjected to the bomb.

    Also, what does that have to do with the atomic bomb? Nothing?

    "This isn't meant as a troll or flamebait, seriously, I think millions of lives were saved, perhaps billions."
    Jesus, its not often that one has to read so much bullshit in one sentence. Billions? Yeah, sure....

    Thanks mods for modding parent up, it really was an impressive posting.

    1. Re:But you are wrong by TGK · · Score: 5, Insightful


      Why do people feel the urge to tell a simplistic story of what happened? Claiming that the atomic bomb was seen as just another weapon simply isn't true. This doesn't have anything to do with hindsight, this has to do with the documents of the time clearly showing that this was not the case.


      As a trained historian and scientist, this disturbs me. Very little was understood of radioactive substances in the 1940s. What was understood was that exposure to large quantities of exotic substances caused a kind of sickness - little more. This does not translate, scientifically or historically, into an understanding that a detonation would result in radiation deaths.

      Without radiation deaths, the atomic bomb is just a really big bomb. That's it -- and that's what it was seen as by the US military and by Truman (who, if you'll recall, wasn't really in on the day to day goings on of the Roosevelt administration).

      US troops on the ground after the detonations didn't know what the weapon did. Radiation poisoning was called "Disease-X" and we had no idea where it came from or how to stop it.

      Ultimately, World War II was a total war. In such a war, great powers seek to destroy each other absolutely with whatever means are within their reach. Debating the morality of the atomic bomb in such a context is a historical error called anachronism - judging the actions of the past by the political, social, and scientific mores of the present. Debate the morality of total war all you like - but the atom bomb was just the latest and greatest in a series of hellish weapons developed by mankind.

      Name one weapon before the atomic bomb - any weapon, so horrible that its use in warfare was taboo before it was ever deployed. Why should this case be different? What should have fired off in Truman's head saying that obviously this weapon is worse than poison gas, incendiary bombs, biological weapons and countless other innovations of human kind?

      History is about more than just reading about the past -- it is about seeing the events and people of an era through their own eyes. If you fail to do that, you're not a historian.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
    2. Re:But you are wrong by TGK · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Allright -- fine. You seem to see yourself as authoritive on this subject matter, so I'll defer to you on this.

      owever, contrary to what you imply not fully understanding the effects doesn't mean that the people weren't aware of the special nature of the atomic bomb.

      Please supply
      • Documentation on the "special nature" of the atomic bomb from pre 1946
      • A concise explanation of what your personal thoughts are on the morality of the atomic bombing -- since you obviously disagree with mine



      Further about the issue of anachronism, as I didn't judge them that is a moot point anyway, but as I repeatedly pointed out you and others are overlooking that at the time, not now, the issue was hotly debated and there were many people, Eisenhower was just one example, who in the context of the time held the opinion that using the atomic bombs was unjustifiable, unjustified and morally wrong. How is pointing this out anachronistic?


      None of the objections raised in the wikipedia article you provide deal with the "special" nature of the bomb, including Eisenhower. If your judgements are tinged by your modern knowledge of nuclear weapons - that's anachronism. Again, please provide these vaunted documents discussing the "special" characteristics of the atomic bomb.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
  23. Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I believe many Nazi officers commiting war crimes answered exactly the same, amazing that such a clever man cannot think for himself:

    I am in no way ashamed of what I had done in any way, shape, matter or form. I did what I was told to do.

  24. Re:Nuclear weapons were an inevitable development. by Knome_fan · · Score: 2, Informative

    "The development of atomic and nuclear weapons was inevitable." Says who? You? Why? Besides: Judge, if I hadn't done it someone else would won't get you to far in court. "A land invasion of Japan would have have resulted in horrific casualties on both sides." Ah, the old narative of how dropping the bomb saved lives. The only problem is that it's nowhere near certain that an invasion would have been necessary and the question of how many people such an invasion would have killed is very much up for debate, to put it mildly.

  25. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Fenresulven · · Score: 5, Informative

    Natural uranium contains U-238, U-235 and a TINY amount of U-234. U-233 is an isotope of uranium created by neutron bombardment of thorium and is not present in natural uranium. Above should read seperating the U-235 from the U-238.

  26. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Black+Tezcatlipoca · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well, the USSR's Tsar Bomba has the biggest yield of all bombs. At 27 tons though, it was damn hard to deliver. Anything large enough to carry it would be easily shot down well before it made the target. The deadliest is probably the Trident II. It has eight compact half megaton warheads and decent range.

  27. "Projections" .... by kronocide · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every defense of the use of the atom bomb is built on "projections" of how many soldiers and civilians would have died otherwise, and on hypotheses about what the Japanese would have done.

    These projections are made from unpublished source material, use unknown models, and those who make them have a strong need to publish projections that are at least a little worse than the actual reality that they themselves created (while sometimes not reminding people of the details of that reality).

    The success of these defenses also depend on the dogmatic belief among their audience that since we are the Good Guys, when we burn thousands of children alive in their homes, we must be doing it for a good reason, while if the Bad Guys (e.g. Hitler, Saddam) were to do the same, there is no conceivable reason good enough to justify such actions.

    I wish some people would be a little more critical and ask themselves were those projections come from, if their authors might have a strong bias toward a particular conclusion, how credible the theories about what the Japanese would have done are, and how good the moral defense of the mass murder of civilian families really is.

  28. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Informative
    How are they controlled?? It takes an order from the president to launch an attack, but how is that order communicated?

    Your scenario has little merit. It literally takes 2 people to do it. In subs and silos, 2 people must perform an action simultaneously. Turn keys, for instance. Seperated by a dozen feet or so. 1 person physically can't do it. And that is only after getting the proper codes from the NCA(National Command Authority. President or Joint Chief, etc).
    In aircraft, it would take dozens of people. They're not flying around loaded anymore, so you'd have to get the weapons out of storage, load them, take off, etc. And then still have to get the proper arming codes from the NCA.

    A rogue colonel can't do it, because he doesn't have the proper codes. It's far more than the president calling someone up and saying "Launch".

  29. Re:War criminal by DoktorTomoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, I happen to be german. So what? Last time I checked, there were no german war crimes committed after the day I've been born, and so I cannot possibly be a part of those non-existant crimes. I therefore do not see how my nationality should change the way I think about war crimes. Especially if they are targeted at civilians.

  30. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Interesting
    On another note, the USA does not want other nations to have the nuclear capability because...

    ...pretty much everyone signed the NPT. Including N. Korea and Iran. There are provisions for a country to back out of it, but N. Korea is the only country to ever do so.

    No country has the ability to defend against a nuclear attack. Not just the USA is in that position.

  31. Re:One more thing by kronocide · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "If they are fighting a war with us it is okay to kill them."

    Nope. It's both immoral and illegal to kill civilians, even if you are at war with their country. That is sort of the first law of war.

    "Whoever said it was better we had killed Iraqi civilians then Saddam?"

    Someone from the Bush administration who was being interviewed in BBC's Hard Talk a few months after the Iraq war started said that, yes, thousands of civilians had been killed, but if America hadn't attacked those people might have been killed by Saddam anyway (so basically it doesn't matter). I realize that this excuse is so stupid it doesn't really demand or deserve a response, but since it appeared again in this thread ("if we hadn't killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, their Emperor might have killed them anyway"), I thought it worth a mention.

  32. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by twiddlingbits · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nukes do NOT have "rods". They have highly machined components of Plutonium, the exact size, shape, weight is classified. The first bomb had two hemispherses of Uranium that were polished smooth.

    LOL, the Russian mob is more likely to sell you the material than the boss/workers concept. Anyway, after the material was transferred I doubt there would be anyone left alive to tell the world what the deal was. No witnesses means no messy loose ends that lead back to the source of the funds.

    There are all sorts of sites out there that describe launch procedures, and it's a lot more complicated than you think. Accidental launches CANNOT happen with an armed warhead. This was all figured out in the 1950's and 60's . If the missle is launched w/o pre-arming the weapon all you have is MAYBE a "dirty bomb" where the impact would spread radioactive materials but no detonation of the weapon would occur.

  33. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by twiddlingbits · · Score: 2, Informative

    A lot of Uranium is actually found in Copper Mines. The problem is you are looking for Uranium ore that has a high percentage of the fissle U-235 that can be seperated. The normal ratio is about 500:1 but some ores are higher. Uranium is found many places in the world, Africa, the former Soviet Union and even in the USA. Read about the projects and technologies they used to seperate U-235 and U-238, it is interesting how they did it then had to scale it up 1000 fold to get enough for ONE bomb. This was before they learned to bombard the leftover U-238 with neutrons to turn it into Pu-239 which is what "breeder reactors" did. The Pu-239 was a much better bomb material.

  34. Different Scientists Had Different Reactions by thelizman · · Score: 2, Insightful
    J Robert Oppenheimer was interviewed years later, and he talked about how everyone reacted differently. Some people cheered, others began to cry, but most stood in stunned silence over the aftermath of the detonation. Oppenheimer himself was very disturbed, recalling the Hindu scripture which states "I am become death, destroyer of worlds."

    In one of his memoirs, Richard Feynman recalled learning from John Von Neumann the notion that you are not responsible for the world you're in. That sustained him during the Manhatten Project years, but after he returned to civilian life as an instructor for Cornell, he went into a nihilistic type of depression:

    "I can't understand it anymore, but I felt very strongly then. I sat in a restaurant in New York, for example, and I looked out at the buildings and I began thinking, you know, about how much the radius of the Hiroshima bomb damage was and so forth ... How far from here was 34th Street? ... All those buildings, all smashed -and so on. And I would go along and I would see people building a bridge, or they'd be making a new road, and I thought, they're crazy, they just don't undersand, they don't understand. Why are they making new things? It's so useless." "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feinman", p 136


    The best quote comes from Kenneth T. Bainbridge on the morning of the Trinity test. After congratulating project leader Oppenheimer on the spectacular success of the project, he then stated "Now we are all sons of bitches."

  35. Everyone likes atom bombs now? by kronocide · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Almost every post here is a defense of the nuclear attack on Japan or of atom bombs in general (while almost every one is written as if this was a very radical and unique position). It gets me a little worried. Slashdoters used to be computer nerds and computer nerds used to be humanitarians. Does everyone also believe that making "small, tactical nukes" is a good idea? After all, terrorists could make a devastating attack on a major city and kill millions, so according to that projection, killing a few tens of thousands of people to prevent that would be more than worth it. You can always conjure up some "projection" to defend any number of casualties...

  36. Comparison to Auschwitz by Sephiro444 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Link.

    Man can render unspeakably terrible things to his own kind. Death walls and gas chambers are only ghastly instruments that remind us of what mankind is capable. Is it some twisted part of the human condition? Is our psychology so simple to manipulate? Is this capacity for moral distortion within each of us?

    Atrocities are not unique to the Nazis. My father likes to remind me of Japanese war crimes committed against POWs. There is no cause so noble or philosophy so infallible that human cruelty has not made a foundation from it. Even today well meaning people of conscience are drawn to polar opposites and debate whether President Bush is a righteous man or a war criminal.

    The scale and efficency of the Nazi killing machine is what shocks us so, but it reenforces what we already know: this kind of holocaust can never happen again. Even though it does, and like lemmings we turn a blind eye. Rwanda? Somalia? And how many people are unconsciously hardening their hearts against Americans on one side and Arabs on the other, or the Israelis against the Palestineans? If the dam were to break, would we again see organized slaughter of the Nazi kind?

    I think far more dangerous than the mind-numbing horrors of which the preserved Nazi implements of death remind us are the horrors that even reasonable men justify. One and a half million people died in Auschwitz and Birkenau, but more than four hundred thousand human beings died in blast and fallout from the American atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There is tragedy in every life lost, but where they differ is in how they are both seen fifty years later.

    Aside from a few isolated fools, the Holocaust is condemned by every soul the world over. But sentiment on the two bombings remains divided, even met with passioned approval by entirely reasonable people. War is a harsh thing, and military strategy is a long way from genocide. But tell me, were the women in line at the bank in Hiroshima and the children in the schoolhouse in Nagasaki any less innocent than those who perished in the gas chambers?

  37. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Fenresulven · · Score: 3, Informative

    The first bomb had two hemispherses of Uranium that were polished smooth.

    This is slightly inaccurate the first bomb (Gadget) did indeed consist of two hollow hemispheres, but it was two nickel plated plutonium hemispheres (with some gold foil added to smooth it out after the nickle blistered) and not uranium hemispheres.

    The first uranium bomb (Little Boy) was a gun type system with a cannon firing a bullet of uranium into a barely subcritical mass of uranium.
    This is not to say that a bomb can't be made with two hemispheres of uranium, but this was not done with either the first bomb or the first uranium bomb. The idea of converting the Little Boy bomb into an implosion design (with two hemispheres of uranium) was raised after the Gadget test as it would permit more efficent use of the uranium, but it was decided not to as this would delay the use of the weapon.

  38. As a young physicist, by indig0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... I strongly identify with the attitude and goals of the people of Los Alamos during the Project. The interviewed scientist has my sympathy for having to endure a lifetime of harassment from those who condemn the creation of technology and progress.

    Many of the comments here demonstrate a disturbing lack of forethought... The Bomb would have been built eventually, by somebody, no matter what. Scientific progress is, in itself, not a moral matter. The bureaucrats and politicians that made the decision to use the weapon upon two intentionally preserved non-military cities are the ones you should be pointing fingers at... The physicists were left out of the decision making process; even Oppie was quickly hustled out of the government when he was no longer necessary to them.

    Scientific progress brings no evil. Evil uses scientific progress for its means, as it always has. This is not a logically valid reason to suppress innovation... (.i.e. think of all the incredible research that cascaded out of the Project that contributed to our greater understanding of the Universe.)

    Ranting aside, I'd highly recommend the movie "The Day After Trinity" (title based on an Oppie quote). It's easy to find and provides a lot of insight into the people and politics associated with Los Alamos.

    Additionally, I'd recommend that you make an effort to visit Trinity Site in NM/USA. I visited last year and it was an awe-inspiring experience.

  39. Who modded it insightful? by poszi · · Score: 2, Informative
    Come on. The linked article is a joke. It's from "The Journal of Irreproducible Results". At the end, they have a reference to other "instructional articles"

    PREVIOUS MONTH'S COLUMNS

    1. Let's Make Test Tube Babies! May, 1979

    2. Let's Make a Solar System! June, 1979

    3. Let's Make an Economic Recession! July, 1979

    4. Let's Make an Anti-Gravity Machine! August, 1979

    5. Let's Make Contact with an Alien Race! September, 1979

    --

    Save the bandwidth. Don't use sigs!

  40. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by secolactico · · Score: 2, Funny

    What if at a silo, a crazy Air Force colonel decides to take his silo into lockdown, no communication in or out. He then conveys a presidential order to launch. Can he get away with it? And what about nukes that are on air force jets, how are they launched? Could the pilot decide to launch his nuke?

    Then you''ll just have to send the recall code prefixed by a combination of the letters "POE". And if *that* fails, there's always the limestone mineshafts you can flee to in order to preserve the human race.

    --
    No sig
  41. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Basehart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "It literally takes 2 people to do it. In subs and silos, 2 people must perform an action simultaneously. Turn keys, for instance. Seperated by a dozen feet or so. 1 person physically can't do it."

    Phew, thank goodness we live in a World where crimes are always ever commited by one person.

  42. Re:I am alive because of the atom bomb by kronocide · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As one of the Americans whose grandfather would have most certainly died on the shores of Kyushu during Operation Downfall, I would like to send the men and women of the Manhattan Project my heartfelt thanks.

    I'm sure that one of the millions of potential children and grandchildren of those who were burned alive by American firebombs would love to give their opinions on this, but alas... That's one of the upsides with killing people: you don't have to hear them complain afterwards.

    The moral, in fact, is a different one: If you start a war of aggression, you will reap what you sow.

    Not quite. Rather, if political leaders start a war of aggression those ordinary people who happened to be born in that country will face the consequences while those leaders might at worst be deposed after spending some time confined to an apartment watching TV. Or they may never face any consequences at all.

    If it's righteous to burn Japanese civilians alive because Japan had gone to war, then it must also be righteous to blow up Israeli civilians if you believe that the Israeli government is occupying Palestinian land. But of course, this idea that civilians are just targets in warfare is in complete opposition of ethics and international law. Let's hope it stays that way. But that means some people need to come to terms with their history.

  43. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    yeah. This is just a leetle bit harder than two guys deciding to rob a bank.

  44. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Zordak · · Score: 2, Informative
    By the way, is it true that the most deadly nuclear weapons are actually produced by Russia?
    Russia built and tested the 100MT beast "Tsar Bomba." Some people believe that there was also a 150 MT detonation, but nobody can verify it. The problem with Tsar Bomba was that it was so friggin' huge, it couldn't be weaponized. They had to cut out the belly of the bomber that carried it, and it didn't have enough fuel to get anywhere. Basically, the only "enemy" territory they might maybe have gotten it to was in non-Soviet eastern parts of Europe, but it still would have been close enough to cause damage in the western parts of the Soviet Union. So basically it was just a pissing match. We probably had the technology to build a beast like that, but there was no reason to do it. We were too busy hatching plans to detonate a nuke on the moon.

    The biggest detonation by the U.S. and her cronies was the 15 MT Castle Bravo shot, which was actually an accident. It was only supposed to be about a quarter of that. Because it was bigger than it was supposed to be, it created a fallout disaster, including dosing up some Japanese fishermen on a vessel ironically named "Fifth Lucky Dragon" (it appears to have been fatal to one of the fishermen). Marshallese islanders also got heavy doses.

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  45. W5MPZ by leighklotz · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Sandia National Laboratories ham club is operating a special event station from the site. I just talked to them using 35 watts.

    See here.

  46. Visiting the Trinity Site by DickeyWayne · · Score: 2, Informative
    They also open the Trinity Site on the first Saturdays in April and October. It's an interesting place to visit. As in today's event, there is no program and no speakers. There are, however, souvenir vendors there. The WSMR folks will give you this brochure at the gate.

    A few tokens of my tourist experience:

    1. There is a rock shop right outside the gate, with a big sign advertising "Trinitite for Sale." If you are a rockhound, they have a nice shop, with lots of interesting stuff, but their prices are a little high. You can get Trinitie cheaper on Ebay all day long.

    2. Removing Trinitite from the Trinity site is considered theft of government property, but they don't watch you too closely. :) There's still quite a few chunks of it around the back fence.

    3. If you see old people visiting the site, there's a good chance that they are locals, who remember the blast. Seek them out and talk to them.

    4. To me, there really wasn't all that much to see there, and yet, there was an amazing sense to just *be* there. The most impressive physical sight to me was the bowl-shaped depression in the soil, a few hundred yards in circumference, caused by the force of the blast compressing the soil.

    5. Try to get a room in Socorro. When they say that the site is "near Alamogordo," they lie. You will enter from the NORTH side of WSMR.

  47. Re:So much for stopping nuclear proliferation. by Crisavec · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not quite. The Nuclear weapons Archive story about it has this to say.

    The Tsar Bomba (referred to as the Big Bomb by Sakharov in his Memoirs [Sakharov 1990]) was the largest nuclear weapon ever constructed or detonated. This three stage weapon was actually a 100 megaton bomb design, but the uranium fusion stage tamper of the tertiary (and possibly the secondary) stage(s) was replaced by one(s) made of lead. This reduced the yield by 50% by eliminating the fast fissioning of the uranium tamper by the fusion neutrons, and eliminated 97% of the fallout (1.5 megatons of fission, instead of 51.5), yet still proved the full yield design. The result was the "cleanest" weapon ever tested with 97% of the energy coming from fusion reactions. The effect of this bomb at full yield on global fallout would have been tremendous. It would have increased the world's total fission fallout since the invention of the atomic bomb by 25%.

    There was some bickering as to weither it had a yield of 50 or 57MT. The designed yield was 50MT, but the americans believed it was 57 based on what fallout they managed to sample, and shortly thereafter the soviets started using this figure as well.

  48. Recent Interview with someone who worked on it by Prien715 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I recently heard an interview with the youngest person on the manhatten project (he's now 85). Reminds me of hearing techno-babble on Star Trek except this stuff is real.

    It can be found here

    There's also a legnthy discussion about the life of times of the father of the A-bomb, Oppenheimer.

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