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USA to Pass Science Crown to China

instantgames writes "According to a working paper of the National Bureau of Economic Research, rapid development of a science and technology base by populous Asian countries soon may threaten the economic position of the United States. Not only is the U.S. losing ground in high technology exports, but its very capacity to develop new technologies is declining rapidly with respect to the rest of the world. According to Richard Freeman, the paper's author, the sheer population of Asian countries may allow them to train more scientists and engineers than the U.S. while devoting a smaller share of their economy to science and technology." From the article: "The phenomenal growth of China's industrial base has been widely publicized, but Freeman focuses on what is perhaps the more important long-term indicator of a nation's prosperity - its re-investment in science and technology education. "

44 of 1,247 comments (clear)

  1. That should go along nicely... by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...with China's commensurate commitment to freedom of speech, human rights, free flows of information among its citizenry, support of protest and political dissent, and so on.

    That's not the only critical front on which the US will be competing with China: the US will soon pass the oil/fossil fuel consumption crown to China as well if current trends continue.

    Further, China is free to spend for its own growth with little oversight from the populace (such as investing heavily in pebble bed fission reactors, planning to build 30 new reactors by 2020), allowing it to spend money as it sees fit without the same social and political constraints as the US. And even with what little oversight you think we might have in the US, it's far greater than the influence a typical Chinese citizen has. It's too bad that we'll likely never see new nuclear plants built anytime soon here, with all the political baggage.[1] We'll just keep using the quickly diminishing supply of conventional fossil fuels.[2]

    [1] An environmental research group came to my door the other day extolling the virtues of environmental law, conservation, anti-pollution law, and etc., as you'd expect. All noble causes, when tempered with economic reality. But they continued on to also say opposition to ANY nuclear project was critical. Could they "count on my support?" In a word, no.

    [2] Bush is actually pushing hard for the nuclear plants we're in desperate need of. See the policy speeches here. Contrast this with some typical opponents' opposition to all ongoing nuclear research under the guise of nuclear weapons nonproliferation.

    1. Re:That should go along nicely... by gsfprez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the States, the problem isn't that environmentalists don't want nuclear power, the problem is that they don't trust the Bush administration with it.

      that has to be the single most stupid thing i've ever seen on /.

      what in the hell does that even mean? Is he going to set off the nukular reactors and blow someone up? Is he going to use them to drill for oil? Is he going to give the reactors to the Saudi's, you know - those evil dirty Arabs who are just so evil... Arabs... evil... Saudis... evil arabs...

      the level of hatred against this guy is epic. He is like Hitler in one way - the level of vilification by the world. Except in one case, it was justified.

      --
      guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
    2. Re:That should go along nicely... by pete6677 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many environmentalists are in favor of sensible energy policy, which can include nuclear power when done correctly. A minority of them, however, are simply opposed to ALL forms of power generation. There isn't a method of generation that is unopposed by anyone. Whatever it is, they'll find a reason to hate it. I think this small percentage of hardcore environmentalists are really just anti-society luddites. What better way to shut down industrialized society than to get rid of electrical generation?

    3. Re:That should go along nicely... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      what in the hell does that even mean? Is he going to set off the nukular reactors and blow someone up?

      No. To spell it out for you, nuclear power plants are supposed to be privately held, but publicly regulated. This regulation is essential to insure that the populace is not injured due to lack of plant maintenance or poor operation. The Bush administration has shown itself willing to allow industries off the hook (and actively fighting for them to be kept of the same hoook) for several years now. It is unlikely that their stance on nuclear regulation would be different. As such, most people (even us who support the technology) are quite leery about letting it return under this administration.

      And before you give me the old Libertarian saw about how the power companies would be hurting themselves if they let the plants go out of safety compliance, remember that people and companies do a whole lot of things which, in hindsight, appear to be stupid, in order to take "low-risk" gains, only to have said probability turn aginst them. Also, as the Congress' new tort-reform legislation has been signed (and was always limited in practice by actual assets - there's not a lot of value in a busted nuclear plant), there is almost no way for the public to have redress if such an accident did happen. all of these act as factors to say that nukes probably won't be getting approved for at least another 3 years are up. Stop voting for idiots who think it's fine to let companies screw over people without penalty and maybe they'll let the companies have their (somewhat dangerous) toys back.

      --
      That is all.
    4. Re:That should go along nicely... by Bastian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      what in the hell does that even mean?

      It means to me that, given the Bush administration's current record on international relations and national security, putting up more nuke plants with people like him in power conjures images of scores of nuclear power plants with huge targets painted on the cooling towers, large cash rewards being posted for anyone who can bulls-eye one, and maps showing the locations of all of them along with their bounties.

      Let's wait until the country isn't being run by an administration that is hell-bent on giving people all over the world reasons to hate us while being so tunnel-visioned in on playing nepotism games and chasing white whales and ninjas in the bushes that it's incapable of putting up a solid, carefully-planned defense strategy.

      He's not evil. He just a causehead who has no fucking clue about anything but does have an incredible knack for making emotional appeals that keep people who are easily influenced thinking he's a well-balanced intellectual. I mean, come on, this is the guy whose idea of the most financially responsible thing to do with Social Security is to prop it up with a $2,000,000,000,000 loan.

  2. Emulation, not innovation by winkydink · · Score: 5, Insightful

    China is still very much more a copier of technology than an innovator. Once they become successful innovators, then we have to worry.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

  3. Cultural difference by sczimme · · Score: 4, Insightful


    You may purchase this paper on-line in .pdf format from SSRN.com ($5) for electronic delivery.

    I didn't buy the paper, but would like to make one point:

    As long as the culture in the US continues to denigrate academic achievement and to glorify ignorance, this country will continue to fall behind the rest of the world in research and invention.

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
    1. Re:Cultural difference by Coryoth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As long as the culture in the US continues to denigrate academic achievement and to glorify ignorance, this country will continue to fall behind the rest of the world in research and invention.

      There was an interesting Op-Ed piece in AMS Notices this month. Let me quote the relevant passage:

      "For the next ten years of a now 28 year business career, I hid my mathematics background. It wasn't shame or embarassment that inspired my actions, as I am quite proud of my achievements in the discipline and feel strongly that mathematics is a major contributor to all of my business accomplishments. No it was the knowledge, based on experience, that talking about mathematics with those not steeped in the discipline would steer a business conversation away from business and onto an entirely different plane.

      What was the conversation? I am sure you have had it.
      Person 1: Dr. Schaar, I appreciated your comment on education policy and the role that corporations can play in long-range programs. You seem to have a such a deep understanding of what educators want and need. What is your background?
      Schaar: I am a mathematician and taught at the university level for several years.
      Person 1: Oh, I was never any good at math. Hated the subject actually. I never could figure out how I would use it after school and didn't get along with my teacher...

      I do not have to continue. But over the years I began to realise that there was somethign hidden in Person 1's remarks. There was an insinuation that Person 1's non-mastery of mathematics was a non-issue. She was a successful business person in spite of it. So there! Her lack of matery was validated by the business world, and also by her peers, who eagerly confessed their lack of mathematical savvy as if it invited entry into a secret club. These same leaders trumped their abilities in the business world, while downplaying the significance mathematics played in the equation"


      From "Mathematics in Public" by Dr. Richard Schaar, AMS Notices August 2005.

      I'm sure any other mathematicians here, especially those who have spent time working in the business world, will find that conversation entirely familiar and typical. People take pride in their failure to study and master mathematics. It is all too common. Yet as Dr. Schaar pints out later in the article, mathematics is increasingly necessary skill in the modern compter oriented business world. The skills of logical thought and deduction fostered even by basic mathematics are the foundations for a large amount of IT related tasks, let alone the more advanced mathematics that can be so very benficial in engineering and computer science. Dr. Schaar goes on to describe how he now continues such conversations:

      Person 1: Oh, I was never any good at mathematics.
      Schaar: Well, that is too bad. Were you any good at reading?


      His point is that being good at mathematics, and the logical thought it teaches is as vital in the modern business world as reading. We ought to e taking it far more seriously than we are. I agree.

      I'd like to make a further point though, having had exactly such conversation many many times myself. Whenever I probe a little deeper it is almost always the case that the person liked and was good at mathematics at some point, usually very early primary/elementary school, but at some point along the ay they "had a bad teacher", or were given the impression that mathematics was hard, fell a little behind - and once behind the problems compounded at higher and higher levels and they quickly grew to hate the subject. The "bad teacher" is an all too common explanation.

      Is it any wonder though? The people who most often go into primary/elementary school teaching are precisely thoe people who never liked and struggled with mathematics at high school. They lack the ability to provide a wealth of ways to look at the problem, and lack any interest or enthusiasm for mathemat

  4. It wasn't due to a "rapid development"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    but rather due to capital flight. Our corporations, in an effort to turn a quick buck, intentionally transfered our high-technology manufacturing assets to asia. Our design centers were sure to follow.

    It only makes sense that a majority of future developments are going to come to us from Asia as we are no longer the experts -- they are.

  5. Is it just me... by ultramk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does this remind anyone else of the dire warnings about Japan "taking over" in the '80s and '90s.

    This just reeks of fear-mongering. I half-way expect Michael Crichton to write some stupid novel about it.

    m-

    --
    You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
    1. Re:Is it just me... by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Japan had a population roughly equal to half that of the US. In order for Japan to surpass the US, the average Japanese citizen would have to be twice as efficient as the average US citizen.

      China has a population roughly equal to four times that of the US. In order for China to surpass the US, the average Chinese citizen would have to be one quarter as efficient as the average US citizen.

      Now, do you have any reason to believe that the average Chinese citizen cannot be one quarter as efficient as the average American? Now imagine what will happen when the average Chinese citizen is as efficient as the average American. Then, imagine what will happen if/when the average Chinese citizen becomes as efficient as the average Japanese.

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    2. Re:Is it just me... by jafac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Central Planning isn't what doomed their R&D efforts.

      When you instead have competing R&D efforts, and the competing efforts are both profit-driven, you are very likely to end up with duplication of effort, and the efforts tend to be short-sighted.

      And when there is differentiation, often the inferior thread will have backers that will purchase the superior thread in an effort to destroy it. (example: nearly every product that came out of Microsoft).

      Central Planning has it's down sides, which can be eliminated by introducing a profit motive in competing efforts, but pure profit-driven R&D enterprise isn't optimal either. A balanced approach has a better chance of success. (which is why America has traditionally succeeded at this kind of thing, in the past, by investing public funds into R&D - but America's recent focus on ideological elimination of science, and public funding of anything, is going to put us at a disadvantage, as our efforts are increasingly short-sighted, driven by short-term profits, and use of financial maneuvering to eliminate competition, rather than the "better mousetrap" principle.)

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  6. What, us worry? by gsfprez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    at least our kids know how to be politcally correct, don't have the stress of having to know how to read their own diplomas, are sensitive to every kind of form of sexual proclivity by the time they are in 4th grade, have shitloads of self-esteem, and can be sure that when they or their neighbors with little or no english skills work so hard that they reach the pinnacle of academic achievement - community college - they can be sure that there will be free childcare for them and their 4 kids when the go to class after working the all night shift at McDonalds.

    why are we worrying about science? Thats for nerds that don't watch American Idol. Which is, in and of itself, a sad state of affairs when you look at it...that those people are who we collectively teach our children to idol.

    just so long as we can yell and scream and blame every problem in the country on Bush and Judge Roberts, why would you want to fill our kids' heads with crap like science? They won't have room for remembering Nelly lyrics! /bitterness and dispair

    --
    guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
    1. Re:What, us worry? by gosand · · Score: 5, Insightful
      just so long as we can yell and scream and blame every problem in the country on Bush and Judge Roberts, why would you want to fill our kids' heads with crap like science?

      You mean our Jesus-freak President? Who sold our children's and grandchildren's futures to fund a personal-vendetta war that he has NEVER been able to justify? We will be able to blame the Bush administration for the state of things for a long long time. He has had that huge of a negative impact on our society. We haven't even begun to feel the reprocussions of this misguided fool.

      Not that he can be blamed for everything, our society has been trained to be ignorant by the religious right for a while now. Video game that allows you to beat up and kill people? Hmm, OK. Wait, what!? There is a SEX scene in it?!!! AHHHHHHH! RECALL IT! Won't someone think of the children!!!

      --

      My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  7. You get what you pay for by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is no surprise, but the extension of long-term trends of various sociological effects. When you have a country (USA) that looks down on intelligence (and yes, the culture for the most part does unless you live on the coasts or in academia), and you have huge sections of the country that put religion above science, or at least give it equal time, you have the basis for lower education standards. The geeks fight back, but they are always the minority.

    Now couple that with right-wing attacks on public schooling in general, bleeding the public schools systems dry in order to push private schooling, and things get worse.

    Now add in an economy where many of the jobs that really use your brain get offshored, and what's left are service jobs that require not as much education, and you have an increasing pressure not to care about higher education. Just get one of those service jobs and root for your team and have a beer after work and all is well in your world. Right?

    Meanwhile India gets the tech jobs, and China is our major creditor, and suddenly all those smart Chinese students think why should they bother coming to xenophobic and dopey America when they can get the good science education and jobs back home. Where the economy is strong, education is encouraged, science is not neutered by religion, and things are moving forward.

  8. Re:What do you expect? by Evro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is what we get for handing our children's education over to the government.

    As opposed to China, where they've handed everything over to the government?

    --
    rooooar
  9. Re:What do you expect? by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Last I checked, the Government was also handling children's education WAY back in our glory days during WWII and the space race.

    What is a sin and a shame to me is the "one size fits all" mentality that shapes education. When are we going to finally grow up and realize that not everyone is cut out for college. Of course that would also require a measure of respect for the trades as a legitimate line of work, and not simply something for the "special" kids.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  10. Did you go to private school? by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is what we get for handing our children's education over to the government.

    You say that as if public education is a recent development. American Public Education goes back as far as the American Revolution, and has roots that go back even further. It sounds like you are not aware of this history, so here's a primer. Read and learn.

    Abandoning the poor people is bad for the American economy and American democracy. If anything, you can trace the growing ruin of American society to increased privatization and reduced funding of public services such as Public Education.

  11. Let me see if I understand you by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're saying that America has a freedom and government problem? Is this compared to the enlightened government of China?

    One of the main points is that China can in fact force their people to go in the direction that they want without having to deal with things like community interaction. Can you imagine the emminent domain kerfluffle over something the size of the Three Gorges Dam project if it was done here in the US? Heck a highway bypass takes forever here.

    And hey, if the populace gets TOO rowdy they can just send in the tanks and mow 'em down.

    --
    --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
  12. Re:What do you expect? by donleyp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There have been lots of great ideas for fixing it, but every single one of them have been shot down by the NEA.

    It is a sad state of affairs when the major private organization in our country helping to shape education policy is a teacher's union, who's interest lies with teachers, not students.

    Let me refine my point by pointing out that you can track the decline in S&E with the rise in the power of the Department of Education.

    --
    You got any karma man? I really neeed it. Just a little hit! Come on!
  13. Re:The warning signs have been around by pete6677 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Industry insiders are largely responsible for research cuts. When companies like HP, AT&T, Bell Labs, and many other former research giants cut back their activities to become just another consumer electronics company, it's no surprise that research in the US will be lacking. Until someone is willing to focus on more than next quarter's profits, this will be an ongoing trend.

  14. Re:What do you expect? by dillon_rinker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When are we going to finally grow up and realize that not everyone is cut out for college.

    As soon as "elitist" isn't a dirty word. As soon as ethnicity-blind policies become the law of the land. As soon as we recognize that homo sapiens is subject to evolutionary pressures and its various subpopulations are variously adapted to their environments.

    Any leftist with a lick of political sense is now branding me a racist. Odd how anti-evolution the left becomes when you discuss apply the principles of evolution to the human race.

  15. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The problem is that the environment in the US is becoming hostile to science. The religious extremists, greatly enheartened by a Fundementalist President's second term, are pursuing an agenda of undermining public education to replace science with nonsense like Intelligent Design and "teach the controversy."

    The US cannot have it both ways. It cannot have the Fundies working against areas of science that flies in the face of their silly Biblical literalism and still foster a healthy scientific community. At some point the states and Congress are going to have to tell the religious anti-science crowd that they do not have the right to trash science education, or the US is going to enter its decline, and this time the rising powers are going to find it in their best interests to keep scientists away from American universities and research.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  16. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by John+Courtland · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, we technically have more "area" than China if you count Alaska (it's very close, US: 9,631,418 sq km vs China: 9,596,960 sq km, source CIA World Fact Book, but that also includes water, which we have more of, check for yourself to see). China does have very little more actual land. However I'm just being a dick and not really participating. :)

    All I know, is that it seems to take a MAJOR issue (like a giant war) to really cause a superpower to fall. So, barring the end of the United States by military coup or what not, there will come a point where China will no longer be able to make leaps and bounds vs the US because the time will have come that China becomes a first world nation with first world problems. It's much harder to totally surpass your opponent technologically than to just catch up by taking their ideas and performing a brain drain on their universities and pretending that by making your population smarter, they won't start to demand more and more resources.

    What I'm saying, is that it doesn't matter that China is catching up. The problems that happens in all developed nations will happen there. For example: their smarter population will demand increases in pay, pensions, more vacation, etc... Becoming a first world nation is tough, every first world nation is having some sort of major problem. China will have theirs.

    --
    Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
  17. Good!!! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Insightful
    All those decades of a culture where intelligence is derided and ridiculed, and vacuous beauty or the ability to do things with a ball are hailed as things to be blindly worshipped are finally coming home to roost.

    The endless raging river of media vomited images of the intelligent person being something that should be made fun of and looked down upon, washing over generation after generation of ill-educated and hyperactive minds, worming its way into every single crevice of the collective coma is appearing as a giant sinkhole after eroding away all support beneath the surface.

    And you think this news will stop the stupidization of this society? Dream on. 99% of the population will never even become aware of it. They'll be blithering about red states and blue states and angels and demons and what whore Justin Dumbass Timberlake is fucking this week.

    Harsh attitude? Tough shit. I have met parents who were bothered when their children did *too* *well* in school, lest they be considered "brainiacs" or "geeks". People aren't remotely harsh enough on these sorts of memes.

    I was tapped out of tolerance on this front years ago. I'm on my way to retire in my early 50's, and then I'm outta this dump. Sit an wallow in your celebrity gossip, sports teams composed of sociopaths who are forgiven every crime by their followers and your endless wasteland of (pseudo)reality television and basing scientific legislation on ancient fairy tales.

  18. Every empire has its end by tulsadano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm curious why Americans are so shocked that the world preeminence we have enjoyed for a century looks like it will come an end in the next few generations (if we're lucky).

    History is in fact rife with empires that rose to politcal, military and cultural dominance and then (for whatever reason) saw it slip away. The English before US. The Spanish before them. The HRE, Romans, Egyptians...

    Why on earth do Americans think, "Oh, but the American world dominance will be the one that lasts forever?" Didn't the English believe that in the eighteenth & nineteenth centuries? The Spanish in the fourteenth - seventeenth centuries? ...

    It is a fact of history: Cultures rise to dominance and then fade from dominance. America is just fulfilling the eon old historical pattern. Maybe China will be the next in line; Maybe an unified Europe; Maybe India; Maybe a repeat of the middle ages where there was no global power. I don't know. But I do know, that eventually America will fall from its penacle. No doubt about it.

    1. Re:Every empire has its end by jstott · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm curious why Americans are so shocked that the world preeminence we have enjoyed for a century looks like it will come an end in the next few generations (if we're lucky).

      History is in fact rife with empires that rose to politcal, military and cultural dominance and then (for whatever reason) saw it slip away. The English before US. The Spanish before them. The HRE, Romans, Egyptians...

      Because we're even worse at studying history than we are at science?

      -JS

      --
      Vanity of vanities, all is vanity...
    2. Re:Every empire has its end by Comatose51 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, with the exception of the previous 3-4 centuries, China has been at the forefront of world civilizations. Their level of iron production during the Han dynasty would not be matched by the West until the 17th century. With China churning out 800,000 graduates with technical degrees every year, it looks like they are going to return to the front again, unless they or someone else do something stupid and start a world war.

      --
      EvilCON - Made Famous by /.
  19. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by bigman2003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sadly, now the things valued most highly in American institutions (public and private) are things like 'diversity training,' 'empowering employees,' and 'inclusive respect.'

    Actually doing a good job has ceased being the primary focus of our workplaces- we now sit around and talk about how wonderful we all are, even the stupid people have something to contribute. We really need to seek out their ideas, because they might give us a new perspective!

    Sure, yes, all well and good. But when our kids end up working in some factory making cheap consumer goods for the Chinese- maybe 'sensitivity training' won't seem so important.

    (Sorry, I just got behind on my work by a week while sitting through this week-long training course...)

    --
    No reason to lie.
  20. Most Americans are ignorant by gosand · · Score: 4, Insightful
    American education isn't bad because it's run by the government. It's bad because people don't give a crap about fixing it.

    Well, to be accurate, they just give more of a crap about everything else, like funding an unjustified war. Or taking care of big business. Or any of other 1000 things that the government wastes OUR money on. Everyone gives lip service to bettering education, yet they love to say ignorant things like "well, at least teachers get the summer off".

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  21. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by pivo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The best and brightest from all over the world come to our universities because they are some of the best.

    That's true now, but China is busy building it's own versions of these universities. They're already very good in many ways. And with U.S. immigration making it harder to get here, Chinese students will soon have fewer reasons to leave home.

  22. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by maxpublic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    pursuing an agenda of undermining public education

    Our educational system was specifically designed to manufacture interchangeable factory drones who followed orders and avoided thinking whenever possible - and it seems to have done it's job well. If anything it's a smashing success.

    If you want research and innovation, public education is not the place I'd focus my efforts.

    Max

    --
    My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  23. Re:What do you expect? by ncmathsadist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ah, it's the perennial bitchfest on American education. Why don't our schools work like they should? Here's a view from the inside (I teach in a public magnet school).

    1. American culture is deeply anti-intellectual. Americans do not value teaching and learning. Look at the behaviour of our largest universities. Americans are interested in their children being credentialed; they for the most part don't give a fig if their children become sentient, civilized adults.

    2. Education has a second-rate image as a profession. Americans think that teachers should work "for the love of it". These same people think that a tepid middle relief pitcher should get 3 megabux a year 'cause its important for the home team. There is no star system for teachers. All are yoked in syzygy into rigid pay scales that do not reward performance. Well, Americans are getting what they pay for.

    3. Education starts in the home. Are you sending your child to school properly socialized so he can function effectively? Do you read to your chyldren? Does junior know his colors and shapes, or is he educated by the television?? This is probably the biggest source of the achievement gap in schools, tho' it ain't PC to talk about it.

    4. Schools STILL function in the industrial revolution model. Your average edhead says "Gee, don't one size fit all....?" Schools are, more often than not, tighly and centrally controlled like factories. Schools push values such as lockstep conformity. "Dont be different! That's bad!" Then their administrations sit and wonder why every kid is doing drugs as a teen. In the 21st century, people need to learn to think for themselves to be effective citizens. (this is a heretical and incendiary idea)

    5. It's OK in america to neglect gifted kids. "They will take care of themselves anyway" Uh, wrong. Tragically wrong. This is a topic for a lengthy disquisition. I have been a specialist in the field of gifted education for many years. The misconceptions held by the public on this issue are legion.

    It is not a pretty picture. And given our yahooish culture (highest cultural value in America: tits wiggling on a video screen) and the loutishness and selfishness of our business and political establishments, change isn't in the cards any time soon. Remember, it's always fat'n'sassy right until the very moment the roof cafes in. Hello Bejing.......

  24. Yeah...but only the U.S. can outlaw evolution by joelsanda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not only is the U.S. losing ground in high technology exports, but its very capacity to develop new technologies is declining rapidly with respect to the rest of the world.

    So what? In the U.S. we can outlaw evolution. We'll just change science when and if needed.

    "Kansas school board's evolution ruling angers science community" [CNN].

    --
    The Luddites were ahead of their time.
  25. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by Buelldozer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you truly think that "religious extremists" are the problem you're even more nuts then they are.

    The REAL problem is that our society does not LIKE smart people, it prefers jocks.

    It starts in grade school with the teasing of the "smart kid" and progresses through High School where large football players with brains the size of walnuts play whack-a-mole with kids half their size and three times their intellect.

    When we become adults are we, defined as popular society, more interested in learning about the latest advance in Physics or what Brittney Spears had for breakfest?

    Religous extremists are NOT the reason our education system is failing nor are they the reason that we are producing fewer and fewer talented, motivated, and intelligent Scientists and Engineers.

    THE answer is all around us, and it is IS us...it's society stupid.

    BTW, my father-in-law is a devout Christian and an AWESOME Advanced Placement Physics instructor at the local high school.

  26. No Wonder by linuxhansl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In no particular order:

    1. Funding slashed for public education.
    2. Lawyers fighting trivial patent battles (instead of that money being used to innovate).
    3. Companies suing their own customers for copyright infringement
    4. "Infotainment" instead of informed news. Fox News anybody?
    5. Controlfreak-behavior everywhere. Controlling what people with their information, controlling foreigners/terrorists/everything, etc.
    6. Manipulated Science Papers to receive funding.
    7. Polically motivated resaerch to bring a certain politically favoured outcome.
    8. Removing of non-PC topics from school books (like "fanatism", "racial issues", in some cases "evolution theory").
    9. Huge defense budget (instead of using the money otherwise).
    10. Religious (christian) fundamentalism.
    11. Campains to make the US the most disliked country on this planet, even by its allies.
    12. etc/etc/etc

    Honestly, who is surprised? This maybe what currently the majority of the (US) people want, but these same people should realize that actions have consequences.

    Europe isn't much better either.

  27. Re:Zero Sum Game and Education by Coryoth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    America is hated largely because we are number one in terms of ... freedom

    Freedom, n. Exemption from the stress of authority in a beggarly half dozen of restraint's infinite multitude of methods. A political condition that every nation supposes itself to enjoy in virtual monopoly.

    -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary (1906)

    Almost a century later and just as accurate as ever.

    Jedidiah.

  28. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by Vicissidude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No kidding. Mod parent up!

    The average Joe is more interested in the latest sports scores than the latest scientific developments. On top of that, ask the average person on the street who's worth more money, Michael Jordan or Bill Gates, and a surprising amount of people would say Michael Jordan... I mention that because I actually did have that argument with a coworker 7 years ago. She just wouldn't accept that Bill Gates was worth on the order of a thousand times the amount of Jordan.

    On top of that, a large number of high school athletes seriously think they can get into professional sports, although they're more likely to win the lottery. They think that's the only way they can "make it". A lot of them skip studying in order to practise their athletics. No one around them tells them they're more likely to become successful by studying and getting a good education rather than hitting the hoops.

    So, they hit the steriods and pump up. That's makes them super-aggressive, especially towards the weak nerds - a bunch of losers they perceive as having no chance of "making it".

  29. Re:What do you expect? by kabocox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree but I'll take your post from a slightly different POV.

    1. The US doesn't generally give a sh*t about math or science look at junior high and highschool. What are the 3 most popular groups? Football, cheerleaders and drillteam. I personally would like all sports banned from school except for intermural PE sports.

    2. I'm sorry, but in this point I strongly disagree with you. Why? Because I think almost all schools are making far too much money as it is. Note: I said schools not teachers. I honestly think that almost all school admin staff across the country should be fired ASAP. Most teachers can tell you that this would radically increase the money that reaches teachers. I'd honestly like fully itemized bills sent home from school in addition to report cards. That would change the educational landscape.

    3. I'm more neutral on this. I agree that any student that has a parent that forces the student to learn will generally outperform those don't. I don't think that teachers should expect any help though. I think teachers should expect any parental help as pure bonus. Honestly parents get pissed at alot of busy work that could be done in class that is assigned as homework that generally happens more in junior high and high school though.

    4. At first, I was going to agree. But then I thought about it. For the most part, you are given a rather wide choice of subjects in junior high and high school. My grip is pre-reqs designed in a why that forces a student into a "career" track. If you didn't take geometery early on, there is no way for you to double up and take Cal later on.

    5. You know. I hate the term gifted students. I was in gifted and talented for awhile. I decided shortly there after to avoid it like the plague. Why? Because most of the individuals that were admitted were trouble makers: those that would crack jokes, interrupt the teacher to gossip, and would talk or pass notes. I was happy that those students were there. They tested well. Testing is extremely easy to the talented. What is difficult is sitting down and listening. Heck, most school work could be done in 5-10 minutes unless designed to take longer. Gifted and talented folks pass through without a problem. Actually, in alot of respects, I think middle school through high school should be taught in the same manner with the same freedoms as college is now.

    I'm not really worried about China. Why? Because they'll cut off contact with the rest of the world once they are 20-30 years ahead of everyone else. In that time frame, the US will re-evaluate alot of things and get its act together. The US only shines when we have a good partner to compete against. China will drive the US forward like no one else could.

  30. Already used my mod points, by Tetravus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    but I'd mod you up if I could.

    The neglect of gifted children is one of the worst things that occurs in the public education system. For those children who are gifted and could succeed, there is no reason to strive. They would be belittled by their peers and given no additional resources. For those children who are gifted and have concomittant special needs (i.e. can finish assigned reading in 1/2 the allotted time and then disrupt the class because they're bored, does the teacher have anything for them to do afterwards?)

    You know the saying about the first 80% of an objective being easy to achieve? The next 10% is challenging, the 5% after that very difficult and the final 5% almost impossible. For some reason our schools are attempting to get the final 5% onto par with the first 80% through mainstreaming of students who may never produce average results; simultaneously they are ignoring the 10% of potential high achievers who may require more stimulation to really bloom.

  31. Re:A race that is "backward" here isn't so elsewhe by Numen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Going to call bollocks on that mate.

    Walk into any hospital in the UK and count the number of doctors of Asian ethnicity.

    Walk into any large IT company in the city and count the number of Asian programmers.

    You're talking crap mate.

    Asian families aspire for their children to be professionals in the UK pretty much as they do anywhere else on the planet. And they succedd at it. The stereotype of most Indians and Pakistanis is of hard working, family orientated, law abiding and honest people.... you'll find it really hard to find a view of them being backward.

    I suggest you visited another country and simply carried your own view with you.

    For reference, I now live in Spain (used to work in central London), and the model of the Indian/Pakistani family is exactly the same here in Spain as it is in the UK. It's completely identifiable in every way.

  32. Re:Bill Gates on US Education by Bowling+Moses · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having followed with morbid curiousity the creation movement in the US for a number of years now, there are several key words that render the actions of your teacher suspect.

    First, the "very religious" comment. This wouldn't raise my eyebrows except for the rest, as many very religious persons do not have a problem with the theory of evolution. Unfortunately a very vocal subset do. Also the very religious comment just begs the question of how you know this? Bumping into the teacher out in public or through their actions at school? The latter may be inappropriate depending on the circumstances.

    Second: "...tought not to enforce biblical references..." Why should religious references even be mentioned in a science class?

    Third: "taught the controversy" WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!There is no scientific controversy as to whether or not evolution occurs or new species appear, or as to the fact that humans and the other great apes share a common ancestor. The scientific debate that occurs is over the exact mechanisms of evolution and their relative importance. These are the real debates in evolution and represent the cutting edge of science. We don't teach the cutting edge in high school science classes, or even most undergraduate classes for that matter. "Teach the controversy" is simply a creationist code word for a religiously motivated attack on evolution that attempts to skirt the establishment clause.

    Fourth: And right after that, we've got your statement that the teacher mentioned "both" and didn't point out the great differences between evolution and creationism. Evolution is the bedrock of biology and is the most thoroughly tested theory in science. It's been around for 150 years and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Creationism on the other hand is either a religious concept (actually several different and often incompatible concepts) or refers to pseudoscience, creationism having been removed from the realm of scientific possibility about 200 years ago and as such has no business in a high school science class.

    So how does this hinder science? Well, it hinders science because your teacher wasted your classes' time by introducing unscientific ideas into a science class and removing time from actually teaching established science--the entire *point* of a science class. Worse, not by not highlighting the enormous differences between creationism and evolutionary biology your teacher implicity equated them. This is an attempt by your teacher to put you and your classmates on the path of hurtling American biology backwards two hundred years. Now while I think it'd be great if high school students could demonstrate full knowledge of what the scientific community knows and what current evolutionary biology entails, it looks pretty clear that this was not your teacher's intent.

  33. Mega Rant and Rage by theolein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd like to start this off by saying that this isn't the first article to stir up fears of an ascendant Asia vs. a descendant America. Slashdot is full of them. Just take a look at any single article noting a technical achievement anywhere, and I mean anywhere outside the US, be it Europe, China, Brazil or India.

    And what is the typical slashdotter's reaction? One of blatant chauvinism, racism and derogatory remarks about backward Chinese spacecraft supposedly copied from the Russians, supposedly socialist Europe supporting a dying dream of having the wrong vision of passenger aircraft future or not even knowing that Brazil has had a working ethanol based gasoline system for more than two decades.

    That is the typical reaction. If you ask me, the problem of the US is perhaps one of arrogance based on ignorance. Ignorance on what happens beyond the US' borders. I suppose it comes from 60 years of superpower status and genuine leadership in many areas. It's gone on for so long that people in the US possibly take it for granted.

    It's also not the first economic scare the US has had. The Japanese frightened many in the 70's and 80's. And now the outsourcing of jobs to China and India is frightening many more.

    So where is the problem? Is it education as so many slashdotters like to believe? Is it the US media that is almost exclusively US centric to the extent that your average slashdotter knows neither the difference between Sweden and Switzerland or between Austria and Australia, and has vague and unsettling notions about the EU being socialist or even communist, let alone about place that have cultures even more remotely removed from the US such as China and India?

    I think it's probably a bit of all of that, but that the real problem is that the US population is simply not interested in the rest of the world. It's US consumers that drive the US media. It's US parents that drive the education system. It's the US population that votes in a President who is only semi-literate. It's the US population that votes to supplant science with dogmatic religion and yet rail against another equally dogmatic religion, that being ironically, one of the few foreign affairs that genuinely, even if only out of fear, interests the average US person.

    Taking an active interest in our world is step one to rejuvinating the US. IMO.

  34. I call BS. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is that the environment in the US is becoming hostile to science.

    I'm with you there - though "becoming" implies something recent and this trend has been going on for decades. (Trust me. I lived through it.)

    The religious extremists, greatly enheartened by a Fundementalist President's second term, are pursuing an agenda of undermining public education to replace science with nonsense like Intelligent Design and "teach the controversy."

    But here I call BS.

    The downfall of the US educational system predates both Bushes and has nothing to to with religious fundamentalism - unless you chose to label the "progressive" movement fundamentalist.

    It it the result of a package of new-age ideologies that have formed into a meme strong enough to infect and unify nearly half the politically-active population of the US - including the entire administrative infrastructure of public school primary and secondary education (along with the professoriate of most of the institutions of "higher" learning, especially in the "liberal arts" part of the curriculum).

    Some of the components:

    - Look-say reading instruction - turning out functional illiterates.

    - "New math", "Rain-forest Math", and other defective math and science teaching practices, turning out functional ilnumerates. (Note that the latter, while neglecting math skills, spends its time on story problems that amount to a political indoctrination course.)

    - Bilingual education and "ebonics" - indellibly marking children as underclass via an accent and sabotaging their chance for higher education and employment above the burger-flipping level (at least in the legal economy).

    - Self-esteem and "results-based" educational practices replacing grading on performance - removing incentive (actually producing a DISincentive) to learn.

    - "Sensitivity" and "diversity" training misused to define gang activity as "black" and "latino" culture - and to require teachers ignore disruptive behavior by young gangsters as they block other kids from what little learning they could otherwise achieve in the dysfunctional institution.

    - "Non-violent conflict resolution" that amounts to permitting the bullies to hit first to their heart's content, while drastically punishing anyone who attempts to defend by blocking a blow or hitting back.

    - Revisionist history: Ad-Hominem flames of the founders as "Dead White Men" (whose anti-authoritarian principles and teachings can thus be dismissed), characterization of the constitution as "a living document" that can be stretched to allow anything rather than a limit on government, treating historical facts as matters of opinion, utterly failing to cover most of the most important events of the last several centuries, and a list of other misdeeds too long to go into here.

    - Teacher retention, promotion, and pay scales based on seniority and tenure (in ELEMENTARY schools!) while totally blocking any consideration of qualification or performance.

    - School-of-education curricula that consist entirely of political indoctrination and utterly ignore science, math, biology, and any sience except so-called "social science" (which has less to do with science than "creation science" and "Christian Science".)

    And a host of other misdeeds, again too long to post here.

    All having the effect of dumbing down the victims of the education system and turning them into a mass of easy-to-control (though not as productive as they might have been) sheep. And virtually all coming out of the ideology of the left.

    Yes, there are some religious sects to the right of Joe Stalin who take issue with Darwin and make noise about it at school board meetings - especially when books are being selected. They get all the press - because the press itself is more than happy to turn its spotlight on its own opposition. This lets it blame its own side's destruction of science education on the other side. They've

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way