Do You Code Sign?

Saqib Ali asks: "I am a regular reader of Bruce Schneier's Blog, Articles, and Books, and I really like what he writes. However I recently read his book titled 'Secret and Lies' and I think he has done some in-justice to the security provided by the 'Code Signing.' On page 163 of his books, he (Bruce Schneier) basically states that: 'Code signing, as it is currently done, sucks.' Even though I think that Code Signing has its flaws, it does provide a fairly good mechanism for increasing security in an organization." What are your thoughts on the current methods of code signing in existence, today? If you feel like Bruce Schneier, how would you fix it? If you feel like Saqib Ali, what have you signed and how well has it worked? "The following are the reasons that he (Bruce Schneier) gives:

Bruce's Argument #1) Users have no idea how to decide if a particular signer is trusted or not.

My comments: True. However in an organization it is the job of the IT/security dept to make that determination. It shouldn't be left up to users. The IT dept should know not to trust "Snake Oil Corp.", however anything from "Citrix Corp" should be fairly safe. Moreover Windows XP SP2 provides provides a mechanism to create a Whitelist of certain trusted signers, and reject everything else. This is a very powerful security mechanism, and greatly increase the security in a corporate environment, if the workstations are properly configured. Having said that, this feature may not be that useful for home user, who can not tell the difference between Snake Oil and Citrix Corp.

Bruce's Argument #2) Just because a component is signed doesn't mean that it is safe.

My Comments: I fully agree with this. However Code Signing was never intended for this purpose. Code signing was design to prove the authenticity and integrity of the code. It was never designed to certify that the piece is also securely written.

Bruce's Argument #3) Just because two component are individually signed does not mean that using them together is safe; lots of accidental harmful interactions can be exploited.

My comment: Again Code Signing was was never designed to accomplish this.

Bruce's Argument #4) "safe" is not all-or-nothing thing; there are degrees of safety.

My comment: I agree with this statement.

Bruce's Argument #5) The fact that the evidence of attack (the signature on the code) is stored on the computer under attack is mostly useless: The attack could delete or modify the signature during the attack, or simple reformat the drive where the signature is stored.

My comments: I am not sure what this statement means. I think this type of attack is outside the realm of Code Signing. 'It is like saying host based IDs or anti-virus are useless, because if you can compromise the system you can turn them off.'

I would really appreciate any comments / thoughts / feedback on the above mentioned Bruce's arguments and my commentary. I am planning to give a short talk about benefits of code signing, so any feedback will really help me."

Comments

"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[DeadSea]

The best example of why code signing as it is currently implemented is broken is Windows Update. During the windows update process you are asked to accept signed code and you may "Always trust code from Microsoft". In the context of Windows update, that sounds perfectly legit to most users. They want to update their computers. They don't want to be bothered by the dialog again to do so in the future.

By agreeing to always trust Microsoft you are agreeing to several things you may not realize:

1. You are trusting all code by Microsoft, not just Windows update (obvious to most people)
2. You are trusing Microsoft code that folks other that Microsoft give you to run.

The second one is the kicker. If there is a bug in some signed code by microsoft that allows JavaScript to call it and write to any file, then anybody can give you that signed code and some JavaScript and take over your computer. This will be done without any further notification at all to you as the end user.

You are trusting microsoft to:

1. Write perfect code
2. Envision every possible use of code they write

Even if you believe that code can be bug free, there is no way anybody who write code really locks it down so it can't be used for anything other than what it was intended. There was a security vulnerability that took advantage of just this. I bug in some signed Microsoft code. I'm not sure how it was fixed.

Currency conversion with understands "convert 23 dollars to pounds"

Re:"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[Homology]

During the windows update process you are asked to accept signed code and you may "Always trust code from Microsoft".

For some reason there is no option to never trust certain certificates.

Re:"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[owlstead]

You are trusing Microsoft code that folks other that Microsoft give you to run.

I know this is true, and bugs have been found in libraries. What was even more wrong is that the same key was used for multiple libraries, making it hard for Microsoft to put the key out of its misery (put it in a Certificate Revocation List.

This is an example where the technique is not so much wrong, but the system in which the technique is used is wrong (one of the spearpoints of Bruce). I do not want to give any web-site the ability to upload and install code on my computer, even if it is signed by someone I trust.

In principle, the idea that MS signs code for automatic updates of their own code is great, it takes out the man in the middle attack (taking over the update site, attack on proxies etc). Leave the code signing be, but leave the snags out.

Re:"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[ad0gg]

When you sign an activex control you can choose not to allow scripting calls to it. XP is pretty weak when it comes to security, server 2003 is lot better, it actually forces you to whitelist a site by default before javascript and activex runs on it. Problem with activex is that you can't fine tune security, its either all or nothing. Java code signing and code security is lot better alowing more control over what the code can do which be set by the programmer, from what i read you can replace activex controls with .net controlls for more fine tune controls. I just never seen it done in the real world.

Re:"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[owlstead]

You mean like under windows, view a certificate, go to details tab, click edit properties, disable all purposes of this certificate? Something like that?

In firefox you will have to remove 3 ticks instead of one button, but those ticks are way easier to find. Not that anyone knows, but it is possible.

Re:"Always trust code from Microsoft"

[bitslinger_42]

In addition to the two points on what you are trusting Microsoft to do, there is a third, even more important, thing that you are trusting. By "trusting" the signed code, you also trusting the chain of certificates involved.

"Huh?" you say? "WTF does that mean?" Most of the time, the certificate that was used to sign the code was also signed by another certificate. This is supposed to establish a chain of trust. In Microsoft's example, their root certificate may be signed by Verisign. The theory is that Verisign is trusted by everybody, and therefore if Verisign signs someone's key, the signed key can also be trusted.

Unfortunately, the theory breaks down. There was a well-publicized instance where Verisign issued a code-signing certificate to someone claiming to be from Microsoft but actually wasn't. When Verisign screws up, or otherwise proves themselves to be not trustworthy, then the end user is left with trying to figure out which "Microsoft" keys are good and which ones aren't. Above and beyond the fact that many users aren't equiped to make those decisions, the vast majority simply don't care.

In a closed-form environment (i.e. inside a company with a PKI in place, physical security on the PKI servers and root key, documented procedures for establishing the identities of the cert requestors, where the apps being signed are for internal use only), code signing, and even chain of trust, mostly works. Once you get out of that tight model, the signature on the code only says "This code was signed by someone claiming to be Microsoft".

No, but...

[TeknoHog]

I co-sign. It comes in handy when your code has lots of trig math.

Do You Code Sign?

[frovingslosh]

Of course I code sign, I'm deaf and mute you insensitive clod!

Yes, I sign everything

[Anonymous Coward]

FIRST POST

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: 5NWrD3M0/1xt+ynMPHbCYX+e3KSK9qhU

iQCVAwUBOFV2W1FO4fmE3w/VAQHgrgP9GlNAaTdNR7DI/Mh62H aZj49496wbM1Nh
YKlmtJIse2vcLF4LFVLJ47zQi4dK21vPlQ9XXAk4n4cype4gDn p6nWR+Rrz+3DPC
gpTUtsdlxZyMh0PvbAmssEX8z3In+cWgs43sjw6Tf0G4ENx68K 8yCEK0oe/aX0vv
mktgUuXP6A4=
=3mUU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re:Yes, I sign everything

[A beautiful mind]

That's great you know!

In case there is an imposter Anonymous Coward, finally we've got a way to detect it!

Bruce is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Bruce is right. You mention that code signing is not designed to handle problems of security or safety. Well, what good is that? The primary reason you want to know who wrote the code is because some you trust some organizations to write safe code. Yet a restricted security model (sandbox, etc.) would give you a greater level of security. It's nice to know that Friendly Company X put their seal of approval on some flunky's ActiveX, but it's much nicer to know that the system is restricting system calls and network access.

Re:Bruce is right

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't "insightful".

You need both a sandbox and authentication of the provider. I can give you code for your sandbox that purports to be a login client for your bank, you enter your creds and I can send them to another URL or do other nasty things.

Code signing is designed to handle the problem of types "is this software from my bank really from my bank". It's the same problem an SSL certificate solves. You can have a perfectly valid SSL certificate, but if it claims to be from your bank and really isn't your data could go anywhere.

In other news, seatbelts proven not to prevent auto-accidents!

Re:Bruce is right

[vadim_t]

It has its value. It's just not a panacea.

You can apply code signing for several things. For instance, you might use it while working from home. This way whoever receives your source can be quite sure it comes from you. This also assures that the source was not changed since you signed it, for instance, by a virus. The later relies on that it couldn't have been infected before it was signed, though.

It could be also useful for distributions. Let's say, somebody breaks into a Debian mirror and replaces sshd with a version with a backdoor. If code signing was in place, you could notice it quite easily. Now, probably you don't trust every developer individually, but trust them because their key was signed by the general Debian key. But still, something can be arranged. For instance:

Debian would have a master key that signs developers' keys. Debian would also have a list of developers, and a list of their projects, also signed with a key. And then there are packages signed by each developer.

To check trust, you check the signature, then make sure the developer who signed it belongs to that project. This way merely being a Debian developer is not enough to put a backdoor in some random package.

Of course, none of this assures complete security. It could be a bug, the developer's key could be stolen, etc. But this gives you interesting mechanisms, such as revoking a developer's key, and it makes life much harder for random script kiddies.

Now, I completely agree that this is not a panacea. But let's be realistic, while a web browser could run in a VM, I doubt very much this approach would work so well with sudo. Being able to make sure that the update to sudo you're about to install comes from the usual developer has some value.

Re:Bruce is right

[harlows_monkeys]

Yet a restricted security model (sandbox, etc.) would give you a greater level of security

However, pretty much every sandbox implemention has had exploitable bugs that allowed code running in the sandbox to get out.

So, even with a sandbox, it is wise to also avoid running code from people that you don't trust, so signing is still useful in a sandbox environment.

Also, a sandbox doesn't help with code that has to run outside the sandbox, such as device drivers, or new versions of whatever implements the sandbox.

Look at it this way: for a piece of code to do something malicious on your system, two things must happen:

1. the code has to run on your system with sufficient privilege or access to do its malicious deeds
2. the code has to actually contain something malicious

You can protect your system by making sure that at least one of these conditions does not hold. Sandboxes try to make sure the first condition does not hold. Code signing tries to make sure the second condition does not hold.

Why code signing sucks.

[imac.usr]

I recently installed Fedora Core 4, and after setting it all up I ran up2date and noted that it's set to require GPG signatures by default (I imported the key as well). Upon running up2date, though, practically every package it found brought up an error message stating that it couldn't recognize the signature, and asking if I wanted to install the package anyway. After about ten packages, I said "fuck it" and turned off GPG signing. (I had to do so by editing up2date's config file manually, since it only runs through its config process once, it seems.)

If Red Hat can't be bothered to sign any of its updates (even the kernel, for pete's sake), then why as a user should I care one way or another?

Re:Why code signing sucks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you imported the wrong key, tool. All the packages are signed. There are several different keys, you know. And why would Red Hat be signing Fedora's packages?

Just a sine of the times.

[jd]

Periodically, you have to use trig functions for sine-ing. This technique arcs back to Pythagoras who would tan himself by sitting in the radians of the sun.

Code signing for trust

[bitslinger_42]

You state that several of Bruce's arguments do not apply, since code signing wasn't designed to solve problem A or problem B. Unfortunately, this isn't an issue of what signing was designed to solve, it is a question of what the end user thinks code signing is for.

If the end user is presented with pop-ups asking "Do you want to trust code from Company X?", the user will be making a decision about that trust. They may (or may not) be concerned with questions such as "Will this code crash my computer?" or "Is this a Trojan horse?". They couldn't care less if the code was really authored by Simon P. Coder while under the employ of Company X. When they click "Always Trust", if they're thinking at all (not guaranteed), they will think that the code is safe, won't crash, and won't have extra "features" that steal their private information.

This is Bruce's point. Because of the presentation and implementation issues, most end users are left with the impression that signed code==good code, an impression that is not always accurate. If the technology is leading the end users to believe things that simply aren't true, there is a problem. In certain, limited, tightly-controlled environments, code signing can work as intented. In general, it is at best an annoyance to the end users and at worst a complete fraud.

Re:Good comments

[lukewarmfusion]

I think Schneier's criticisms often come off that way. His critique of certificates amounts to "they're not perfect, so don't bother." This "all or nothing" type of attitude may not be exactly how he feels, but his writing certainly makes one feel that way.

My answer to your answers:...

[pVoid]

Bruce's Argument #1) Users have no idea how to decide if a particular signer is trusted or not.

My comments: True. [...]The IT dept should know not to trust "Snake Oil Corp." [...]

You are missing the point entirely: What if I were to present you with "Citrix Corp." and "Citrix Corporation" and "Cirtix Inc.". Which would you *know* comes from *the* Citrix corp. Also, notice how the third one had a typo. Also, I will remind you of some guy who had obtained a cert from verisign for the name of a well known company. I forget which one it was, but it was something like Microsoft or Sun.

Bottom line: the cert only assures you that the string ("Citrix") it corresponds to is correct. It doesn't say anything else. Which begs to ask: why have a signature?

Bruce's Argument #2) Just because a component is signed doesn't mean that it is safe.

My Comments: [...]Code signing was design to prove the authenticity and integrity of the code.[...]

Again, this is aside the point: when you for example give shell access to students at university machines, all the binaries they run are part of a secure base. cp and ls are *the* tried and true binaries from every distribution. An administrator *knows* that they can trust that code.

Now, let's say an administrator installs a signed ActiveX plugin. Let's say it's even the Flash player. What we cannot know, and what makes this mechanism extremely dangerous (by means of perceived safety), is that the player might have a security hole in it. So you might go to a web page, and an action script loaded into the player could cause the player to execute random code. This is a big no-no. And not because the player is flawed, but rather because you've decided to integrate this piece of code into your trusted base OS.

Bruce's Argument #3) Just because two component are individually signed does not mean that using them together is safe; lots of accidental harmful interactions can be exploited.

My comment: Again Code Signing was was never designed to accomplish this.

Bruce's Argument #4) "safe" is not all-or-nothing thing; there are degrees of safety.

My comment: I agree with this statement.

Combined with the first two points, you're basically saying that there's no point in having code signing.

Bruce's Argument #5) The fact that the evidence of attack (the signature on the code) is stored on the computer under attack is mostly useless: The attack could delete or modify the signature during the attack, or simple reformat the drive where the signature is stored.

This is a very important feature of security: auditing. If you have a system that's been compromised, you want to know how it happened. *Especially* if you are in a corporate environment: you see one workstation get 0wn3d and formated, you won't be sitting around to see when the next one hits. You will want to know what did it.

All in all, I agree with everything he says. Even though I'm just a mere mortal.

Re:Good comments

[bitslinger_42]

I've been reading Bruce's writings for several years now. I've even met the man and had dinner with him. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what keeps him going.

One common comment at his blog is that most of his writings point out the flaws, but few point out solutions. A perfectly valid criticism, and quite accurate. Having worked in the computer security industry for nearly ten years now, I am coming to the conclusion that there may be no solution. We've all heard the joke about the only secure computer (no power, locked in a safe, encased in concrete, and at the bottom of the ocean), and laughingly made comments about how security would be easier if it weren't for the users, but have we really thought about that?

I've written several comments on /. regarding security, and I'm starting to come up with a trend: it isn't possible to really secure the computer if the end-user doesn't understand and/or care about security. Here on /. there are many, many people who care and understand. I run multiple firewalls on my systems AT HOME, plus antivirus and antispyware programs. I actually review my logs. I don't run any program that was written more recently than my AV updates. I'm what most "normal" people would consider paranoid. And I still run into issues.

Since I work in the industry, I am really struggling with this. I believe in security, I desire security, I really, really WANT security. I also see that none of my efforts will bring it as long as people are involved. People make coding mistakes. People are greedy. People are petty. People are malicious. The same instincts at work looting in New Orleans tonite lead some people to do anything in their power to hack other people's systems. The rest of the people, the so-called good people, sit at home and want their computers to be as simple as their toasters. They don't want to have to know about viruses, spyware, phishing, and Nigerian 419 scams. They want email, smilies, and porn.

Regardless of how despondant I feel about security in general, security theater really pisses me off. When I see a product or a process being sold as perfect security or as any kind of silver bullet, I just have to yell. People believing that one relatively good tool will fix everything is bad enough, but when they're told that a worthless tool will fix all their problems...

In theory, code signing has the potential in some environments to limit the risks from certain vulnerabilities. In practice, code signing for the masses is worse than worthless, because Joe User sees "Do you trust Microsoft?" and honestly believes that the code will do him no harm. He will then download and run any program, regardless of where it actually came from, as long as he gets presented with another "Do you trust Microsoft?" button, because he's been conditioned to say "Yes" by Windows Update. In this case (i.e. for general use on the Internet), the "all or nothing" concept is appropriate. Joe User would be far better off treating every application with suspicion than learning that the Code Signing Fairy will bless certain bits and everything else will be covered in foul-smelling, rotten tomatoes. There is no way that the code signing theory is applicable in general use, so using it is a bad idea.

Now that I'm sufficiently depressed, I think I hear a bottle of Jack Daniels calling me