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Infrastructure for One Million Email Accounts?

cfsmp3 asks: "I have been asked to define the infrastructure for the email system for a huge company, which fed up of Exchange, wants to replace their entire system with something non-Microsoft. I have done this before, but not for anything of this scale. Suppose you are given a chance to build from scratch an email system that has to support around one million accounts. Some corporate, some personal, some free. POP, IMAP, webmail, etc are requirements. The system must scale perfectly, 99.9% uptime is expected... where would you start?"

27 of 1,216 comments (clear)

  1. Um... by Stevyn · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd start by contacting people who know how to do it and can actually help you. A few responses on slashdot aren't going to help you along the entire process. Maybe even bring in a consultant.

  2. ~ 320K accounts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    At IBM we use Lotus Notes which has saved us LOTS of virus hassles. Every employee has an account and we're something like 320,000 worldwide. The mail "databases" are spread among Domino servers but I don't know what platform these run on, or what hardware specs they have. I imagine it's either Windows or Linux... but who knows, maybe we're using some of our PowerPC-based iSeries servers. These are the boxen formerly known as AS/400.

  3. It's obvious by gulfan · · Score: 4, Informative
    Your first bet would be Ask Slashdot.

    However, I'd personally ask Google. They've done it and even their search engine has information. I found an interesting link from there detailing the deployment of a large hundred thousand user mail system, from the architecture to the software located on Linux Journal.

  4. Split up the tasks by jgardn · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are three parts to your system: sending mail, receiving mail, and storing mail. Keep them separate.

    Your receivers will be a bank of servers running sendmail. They will do appropriate spam processing to reduce the amount of mail actually received. They feed the data into the storage servers.

    The storage system has the data partitioned out so that all the data for one user would go to one server while all the data for another will go to a different one. The storage system also has to provide POP and IMAP access. You may want a special setup where the IMAP or POP service known which server to go to. Investigate having one giant virtual filesystem so that the system isn't too complicated.

    Your webmail access will use IMAP to access the actual mail. It can be a completly different system.

    The sending system will be a chokepoint for all outgoing mail. You are going to scan it as it goes out to look for virus-sent emails or unauthorized messages. For instance, you may want marketing email to be processed differently than inter-office email and such.

    All of these systems will be running sendmail. I know sendmail has a bad rap for being insecure, but the insecurities have been found and since fixed. It is by far the most manageable system when it comes to large-scale deployments with heavy customization.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    1. Re:Split up the tasks by fwc · · Score: 3, Informative
      This is right on the mark. I would differ in a few implementation details (aka I hate sendmail with a passion), but this is the way we do it at a medium-size ISP with a mail server "cluster" running in the thousands of mailboxes category.

      In short, we have mail servers accepting the mail and dropping it on a shared NFS server which stores all the mail. The incoming servers run spam and virus filtering and is responsible solely for delivering the mail to the customer's mail directory which lives on the NFS server.

      On the client side, we run IMAP and POP3 servers which access the stored mail on the NFS server to deliver it to the clients.

      The exact software used for both of these functions are somewhat irrelevant. Once you split this up this way, you can also split the selection process. I.E. which is the best server for accepting SMTP mail and dumping it in customer's mail directories. Which can be answered with a completely different answer than the question of "what is the best NFS (or SANS) server to use to store the mail", or "what IMAP server should we be using", or "what webmail front end should we be using", or so on.

      It also makes changing your mind down the road on any piece easier since you can actually run and test any one of these components in the live system as a final test before moving a replacement into the system.

      FWIW, I would *love* to consult on something this scale.

  5. For the lazy... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's Slidey's post. (Disclaimer: Copyright blahblahblah appropriate people yadda yadda fair use etc etc don't sue me, thank you)

    ---
    ok i work for a large uk isp in the messaging (email) operations dept. we currently have 2.5-3 million active accounts (and a load of suspended), and manage anywhere upto 12-16million mails per day

    our setup is like this (this is simplistic though):

    front line - anti abuse mta's - these do dnsbl type lookups (spamcop, spamhaus and sorbs). we have 9 incoming
    next we have mta's. they farm mail off to brightmail servers, which do similar to spamassassin. we have 6 incoming mtas, and 8 brightmail servers (not enough - high load)
    after that they farm off to vscans (6)
    after that any mail that gets through is delivered to mail stores (8 + 2 hot spares)

    what you want to be doing is similar to this above - chaining hte mail from one level to the next. the first level should be the rbl's - these are less processor intensive, and can remove a fair whack of your mails in one swoop. spamassassin is going to be more cpu intensive, since it has to open each mail and read the first x many bytes

    id have separate machine(s) holding your master directory, and if you can get directory caches then do that too (to take the load off the master directory) - ours run oracle

    i dont know what your budget is, but split up hte different tasks as much as possible. that way if you need to add more to any pool (rbl lookups, spamassassin etc) you just add another machine..

    one last thing - we also have a separate box just for postmaster mail (with exim + spamassassin funnily enough) - it tends to get busy

    Last edited by Slidey on 09-08-2005 at 11:19 PM
    --
    (end of quote)

    1. Re:For the lazy... by therus121 · · Score: 3, Informative
      I work with Slidey, but in the Solutions side of the team (i'm the guy who architects the infrastructure of the platform). Here's a few additions:

      1. Storage - \Disks, lots of Disks\ - we use EMC DMX3000's for the stateful machines (~180TB raw) which work very nicely.

      Your back end needs to handle lots of small random writes - this makes storage vendors cringe when mentioned, as it makes a mockery of their lovely benchmarks.

      2. Clustering - you'll need that also on your master directory and message stores's. Veritas is nice.

      3. Load balancing - For the front end boxes (pop, imap, web). Cisco CSS's are pretty good for this.

      4. OS - We run Solaris. It might not be the fastest thing around, but it works pretty much non-stop; has good vendor support and is very mature. RedHat might be on the horizon as well as Solaris for x86. Windows? don't be daft.

      5. Test environment. Have a scaled down exact copy of the production system to test things on. i can't stress how important this is.

      6. Proper automated server build procedure. One word - Jumpstart. All OS and application configs and builds in Jumpstart. So if you loose a box, it's no big deal about rebuilding it at 3am on Saturday morning when you've had a bevvy or two the night before, and all you feel like doing is chundering (i speak from experience - a SunFire 6800 does not respond well to projectile vomit)

      One correction of Slideys post, we now have 16 brightmail boxes (10 in, 6 out) and it's not enough.

      Cheers.

  6. Re:CommuniGate by p0rkmaster · · Score: 3, Informative

    I second that recommendation. I've been running CommuniGate Pro for many years now, and I love it. There's a cellphone provider in sweden that is hosting over a million accounts on a single 8-processor server - but for your requirements I'd probably recommend looking into CommuniGate's clustering solutions.

    --
    ... I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out. - Judge Harry Stone, Night Court
  7. CommunigatePro from Stalker.com by ejoe_mac · · Score: 5, Informative

    1) It'll run on anything - Win32, Linux, BSD, Solaris, x86, XServers, Alphas, Power5
    2) It'll scale as big as you can dream - over 5 million accounts with clustering
    3) MAPI support

  8. Hire Matt Simerson, the creator of MailToaster by ChrisKnight · · Score: 3, Informative

    My number one suggestion is hire someone who has built scalable mail systems, and written tons of code to support them: Matt Simerson

    You can learn about him, and his mail projects at http://www.tnpi.biz/internet/mail/toaster.shtml

    -Chris Knight

    --
    -- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
  9. Scalable e-mail systems? by shub · · Score: 3, Informative
    Try Googling for "Scalable E-mail Systems" and "Scalable IMAP services". Of course, I'm biased since most of the top hits are from the slides from the presentations that I've done at LISA 2000, LISA 2002, etc....

    My slides relevant to this discussion can be found at http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/papers/dihses/ and http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/papers/sistpni/.

    And yes, Nick Christenson has been a long-time friend and co-author of mine.

    Feel free to contact me directly if you want some referrals.

    --
    Brad Knowles
    http://daily.daemonnews.org/ -- if you're not
  10. Re:Kerio by epiphani · · Score: 3, Informative

    Or outsource the whole damn thing. There are dozens of providers out there that could drop a rack worth of gear into your datacenter and maintain the whole thing with plenty more experience in handling mail systems of that size. And at that level, I'm sure you'd have no problem getting it branded however you like.

    disclaimer: I work for one of those companies.

    --
    .
  11. Plan. Test. Spec. Deploy. by MattW · · Score: 4, Informative

    (1) Plan an server setup which can handle the load. The requirements may change, but one million users is a fair bit. How much average incoming and outgoing emails is that? Figure that out, using a network sniffer or sniffers on existing traffic if need be (although logs should work). Then use this to calculate a number of servers needed for an outgoing smtp farm, an incoming MX farm. Figure out how much storage space is to be provided per user, and then figure out how you want that storage space to be accessible. Probably your best bet is to have a round-robin DNS farm of imap/pop servers which proxy connections based on the users login to a backend farm of actual mailservers responsible for storage. Plan the ability to move users from server to server to rebalance as needed. Outgoing smtp is a lot easier since you're not really storing things long term. Plan a web farm for webmail. (And pick software) Don't forget to plan some sort of backup, and make sure your system is flexible as far as email retention; chances are the email retention policy will change at some point and your setup should be able to change with it.

    (2) Test. For each server, hammer it. Test it's load under as close to real world circumstances as you can. Then create unreal punishing loads and see how it handles it. Plan in advance for how your server farm handles something like virus-generated mass emails causing 1000% spikes in load.

    (3) Using your testing results, spec out the actual hardware. RAID, cheap hardware, redundancy, etc. If you have control over the network choice, plan a location with multiple fiber trunks coming into the building and provider redundancy. Remember backhoes in concert? Don't get hit by that. Plan for server failures, drive failures, network failures, power failures, and security compromises.

    (4) Deploy! If you did the rest right, this is the easy part. You'll have redundant network connections, HSRP, redundant switches, a proxy farm, an imap/pop farm the proxies connect to, an smtp farm for outgoing emails, and a web server farm for serving up webmail (depending on how you choose to architect the disk space, the web farm and the pop/imap farm may be one and the same; depends on how you set things up.)

    Here's a starter link to a setup which is smaller but, in principle, fairly similar:

    http://www.itd.umich.edu/umce/features/2004/cyrus. html

    Finally, if you don't want to screw it up, ask someone who has done it before. Paying someone $300/hr for a 10-30 hour review of your plan is dirt cheap compared to horking the setup. Someone who has worked in huge email environments (a la, hotmail) could show you gotchas before they bite you. (If you need help figuring out who to ask, I could even point you to some of the appropriate people)

  12. YIKES! Tossing out the groupware?! by Dark+Coder · · Score: 4, Informative

    Gee whiz... I'm surprised that the groupware is getting tossed out. If as small as 20% of the user is accustom to Outlook Calendaring, they'll represent 95% of the complaints in a new system. An advance warning to all existing account should be mailed out (both paper and email) so that nothing falls through the cracks.

    Now to the mega-infrastructure that I set up for an undisclosed company for under 50K (and also didn't want groupware).

    1. Transport Sender (sendmail). That's right! Good ol' plain sendmail scales. It does require some pretty savvy tweaking so get Sendmail.Com consultant onboard just for this. Use SleepyCat DB for speed for all sendmail setups. For one million, I had about 23,000 transaction per minutes during the day. You'll require 10 servers for this for cushion (against some idiots sending an ISO attachment).

    2. Payload receiver (sendmail). A second group of machine to handle the reception of SMTP payloads.

    3. IMAP4S/POP3S - Hey what's with the "S"? Nothing like sending your user's password in the clear. Unless you enforce VLAN in your corporate environment and limit all IMAP4/POP3 to VLAN, the "S" is a mandatory security feature, inside and outside. Guess what "S" stands for?

    4. Webmail - SquirrelMail - Yet another dedicated server (in which I had to add two more load-balanced server to handling the growing pain). Use https for login only.

    5. AntiVirus (ClamAV) - It was the best back then, now its just running in the middle of the pack. sendmail has milter that allows extensibility such as MIMEDeFang, wilter, rureal (reverse-DNS check), spamassasin, and SPF.

    6. Support - Half the effort is put into those webpages that would 'hand-hold' these newbies into reconfiguring their machine. Worth the effort if you have over 20 expert PC users that can do their boxens. Otherwise do it yourself at each PCs. These pages should cover Thunderbird, Evolution, as well as Outlook and Outlook Express.

    7. Learn to spin 11 plates, one on each pole. Keep them spinning... If they start to drop and break, bring in some more Unix dudes.

  13. Simplicity is key. by chrome · · Score: 5, Informative

    My job is building systems like this. Current mailserver system I designed and built is hosting 80,000 email accounts, and will scale out to a million quite cheaply by just adding more machines.

    OpenLDAP

    You need a central configuration repository to store the email accounts, their passwords, etc. OpenLDAP is perfect for this, and you can replicate it out for scalability. Be prepared to learn about LDAP schemas.

    Exim

    Use Exim because it has a simple process model (a single binary that does all the work, like sendmail) but has a human readable configuration file and has to be the most flexible MTA out there. You will have customers with weird requirements sometimes, and Exim will be able to meet those. Plus, it has Exiscan-ACL built-in these days, which allows you to do virus scanning and spam scanning at the DATA stage, before the mail is actually accepted by the MTA. It means you can make the sending MTA deal with the bounces if the mail is a virus or is obvious spam.

    Courier-IMAP for POP3 and IMAP access.

    Yeah its written by a sociopath, but nothing else works as good in the field. It works out of the box with sensible LDAP schemas and is fast, reliable and secure. Handles SSL, all the different authentication methods, what have you. Maildir compatible.

    Maildir message store.

    Store the mail in maildirs. Don't put them in /maildirs/domain.com/user/Maildir - split the domains up with a 2 level deep hashing algorithm (if you're virtual hosting domains, which is what it sounds like to me), so make it something like /maildirs/xx/xx/domain.com/user/Maildir, where xx/xx might be something like 3f/6b (depending on the hash). Use MD4 for the hash because its more balanced than MD5.

    NFS mount the maildirs from a fast NFS device like a Netapp. Netapps are recommended because you can plug them in, and they just work, plus they are easy to scale by adding more trays.

    Linux NFS servers set up with heartbeat and shared disk also make a nice HA NFS, and would be cost effective, but you'll have to buy an array anyway (probably fiber channel) so it might be better just get something thats completely integrated like the Netapp.

    Spamassassin.

    Can be configured to scan make at DATA time in the SMTP conversation. A LOT of configuration work here to make it play nice on a massively scaled platform, but it can be done. Mostly it needs to have things like the auto whitelisting and bayseasn filtering turned off, as the extra DB file work is a bit excessive.

    Actually, I'm sure there is a way to make it work with a less resource intensive repository, but using the standard SA rules seems to work well for my environment. *shrug*

    ClamAV.

    Free antivirus, it works, and integrates well with Exiscan-ACL. Set it up to scan via the daemon, and configure it to update every couple of hours from cron, and bob's your uncle.

    Scaling out

    Make every box the same. Make every box an MTA, a POP3/IMAP server, etc. Use something like Kickstart to automate builds so that you can build a machine in 10 minutes, and all you have to do is configure the IP address and plug it in. If you want to be REALLY sexy, you could make the machines boot off the network, and mount / from a shared NFS area, and make /var/spool/exim the internal mirrored disks. DHCP them, then all you do is plug a machine in and set it to PXE boot. Pretty trivial to do.

    Load balancing

    Hardware load balancers are pretty much a necessity. Don't touch cisco stuff. Its not very good. Go with Foundry Networks ServerIrons. The XLs can handle 1 billion requests/day if you configure them in Direct Server Return mode (also known as DSR/Foundry switchback). Use it. It makes all the return traffic go directly out to the net, meaning your ServerIrons have to switch less traffic and track less sessions. I would recommend however for a million users a pair of the ServerIron 450GTs, or bigger. Maybe one per VIP/Service.

    Now, if this is all looking pretty daunting, you could always hire me to build it for you :)

  14. Where to start (seriously) by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Informative

    First, you need to start by drafting real requirements. What do you need exactly? Antispam? Antivirus? Try to have it fill up at least a page.

    Once you have that done, you can start looking at solutions. You will have two parts to your solution:
    1) The DMZ email relays (possibly including other antispam/antivirus functions) You really need high availability here.

    2) Your email storage and retrieval systems. These may be a little more tolerant to downtime on an individual basis. But if you need to have redundancy here, there are ways to do it.

    I think Hotmail did fine with BSD and Qmail.* I am sure Postfix is equally capable.

    * Although Qmail itself has never had a security vulnerability discovered, you should be careful. TCPRules (on which qmail relies) has a vulnerability that can lead to root access for local users. This is not a problem on systems with no local users, however. I am not aware of any patch for the TCPRules vulnerability.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  15. Intelligent Architecture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hi Cliff;

    Sounds like a fantastic design opportunity here. The 5% of the project that is Enterprise architecture is what I enjoy the most as well. I'm assuming money probably isn't an object in terms of how much gear and bandwidth you may have to feed to this.

    I'm happy to let my fingers type away below, I'd love to keep in touch and see how you end up shaping this system. my email is allowmx at hotm...

    Before I ask, are there actually a million accounts? Or is that just a ceiling that you have to show proof of concept with?

    I've only implemented up until about 250,000 accounts of any kind, as I'm sure you're probably aware, the base transactional resource costing is essentially the same..

    For me, I would look at this for sure from at least these two angles:

    1) knowing your transactional costs (how much of your hard resources, bandwidth, cpu and disk space) will each type of transaction in your system take?) I mostly use this approach to get not an exact number, but an idea of magnitude, and detail where it happens on it's own to make sure the proper attention is applied to them.

    2) Failsafe intelligence & capacity in the infrastructure, as well as the failsafe intelligence & capacity in at the application layer. You have to know that your hardware, software, os, business logic and applications are all monitorable internally, externally for availabilty and actual "can I use it". Transactional logs, etc, of having information available when the inevitable problems come up.

    Also, having a capacity for as many of these layers to be self-healing, and fungible to the point that your service delivery is homogenous in as many ways possible. If your network finds something doesnt work or route, with mail, you can find another way to route it. Having a transactional manager of some kind, direct or not, could be useful in this case depending on what the client wants.

    99.9% uptime equates to about 526 minutes, or 87.6 hours you _could_ be down each year. Thats about 7.3 hours a month, or one day a month.

    Based on that, having flexible, redundant tools setup in a high-availabily arrangement at their respective operating capacities is key. I'm not sure if your current exchange problems are being aided by not enough equipment, bandwidth, or other stability issues, so I'll just assume that it's all of them :)

    I apologize if anyone else has already mentioned some of this, but here's some of what I've found to help me where email has become as crucial to a business as their cell phone.

    On the hardware level:

    - STORAGE: Everything goes on a SAN, if not more than one. Don't waste your time with anything less.
    - SERVERS: All servers have redundant hot swappable parts in the very least, power and hard drives. I'd even suggest making the servers Iscsi bootable so they can boot off the backbone. Beyond this, I like to buy my servers in piles of identical ones. Have 1-2 spare serevrs of each kind sitting there, ready to throw hot swap drives into from a failed server. That way if a server dies, you can address the power supplies, or get the HD's in that machine into another identical server and get it up and running while you diagnose the hardware problem independantly. My approach to any kind of problem is FIX, DETECT and REPAIR. Get it up and running, find out what was wrong, make sure it's fixed for good. Too many of us stop at the first too ;)

    The idea I have in mind is a smaller scale of a google beige box army. linux/bsd offer so much more transcations for each piece of hardware, so that works very much in your favor. Obviously something enterprise grade to satisfy the client such as the Compaq/HP Proliants, etc. I feel these Servers ahve the best overall support, manageability and information tools, and their openlinux drivers interface wonderfully with open source operating systems)

    Networking/Communication level:

    - Entire mail processing architechture communi

  16. Re:Obviously by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 5, Informative
    I work with Exchange, and think that the chances are better that they just had shitty architecture to begin with. Exchange is a great platform and scales well, so if the original people wouldn't do it, well then f*ck em.

    Your point about putting more effort up-front into design is well taken, but thhat advice applies to any platform...

    WIth that said, and without turning this thread into an Exchange bitchfest...

    Why in the hell can't you restore a mailbox from backup using only the tools you already have if the user is no longer present in Active Directory? You can't even export the mailbox with EXMERGE... Your choices are 1) 3rd party recovery tool (like Quest Recovery for Exchange) or 2) Build an ENTIRE OTHER SERVER and do a normal, full restore of the entire mail store so you can extract one measly mailbox.

    OBviously, the "Recovery Storage Group" feature is a VAST improvement over the old Exchange 5.5 way of bringing back just one mailbox (that being setup another server) but this is a MAJOR duh situation on Microsoft's part. They seem to think that since their "best practice" is to never ever erase any user account ever ever ever, that its okay to leave this gaping flaw in their enterprise groupware product. Sorry, but I think that sucks. We paid out the ass for "Enterprise" edition (to avoid the arbitrary 16gb limit on the mail store) and goddammit, I should be able to bring back a mailbox without its corresponding AD account without wasting a whole day setting up another server... I've only had to do it once (today) but the whole time I Was thinking how much esaier a mailbox restore on my OS X Server at home would be... Just restore the frickin' files and move on with your life.
    --
    Who did what now?
  17. Oh, dear God, you RECOMMEND Notes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Of course, everyone should note that recommendation is coming from an IBM employee.

    Sorry, but Lotus Notes sucks; it's an abomination in almost every way. It's bloated, slow, buggy and has what is arguably the worst user interface ever (The User Interface Hall Of Shame said they could have based their entire site on this one app!) Sure, it does group meeting notes and can let you check other people's calendars but it falls flat as an email system. If it can't do the basics, who cares about the "advanced" features.

    Doubt me? Okay. Let's try a little experiement.
    First, sort your inbox by subject. Oh, I forgot. YOU CAN'T. Well, let me take that back. You can if you simply follow these simple instructions...
    First, you need to have Domino Designer installed. In Designer, open Folders in left pane, then open folder $Inbox, highligh the Subject column. In the window with Columns properties in second tab you can check-in the "Click on column header to sort..." checkbox. Close $Inbox folder window. To prevent design refresh, in Folders view, right-click on $Inbox folder, choose Design properties and on third tab check-in "Prohibit design refresh or replace to change".
    [blinks eyes in disbelief]

    Un. Fucking. Believable.

    Oh, and the feature I like the best is the pop-up dialog that tells you you have new mail. So you click to make that go away, switch over to LN to read the new mail and it's not there... Oh, yes, that's right, you have to press F9 to actually download the email to your client, even after being notified by an obnoxious popup that you have new mail.

    Want to know another neat little feature related to that F9 key? According to our LN System Admin, get a few dozen people to all press and hold the F9 key for a few seconds at the same time and you can crash the Domino server backend requiring the server to reboot. Nice.

    I could go on but I think I've made my point. I have never, ever, encountered anyone who has switched from Notes and been pleased with the change.

  18. I/O by Graymalkin · · Score: 4, Informative

    While not quite a million users, HEC Montréal switched from Netscape Messaging Server running on AIX to Postfix/Cyrus/SquirrelMail running on Linux. Linux Journal ran a really nice article and a follow-up about their transition.

    One of the first things the school did was figure out how exactly their current system was failing them. Their old AIX boxes were being stressed just by the volume of mail coming through the system, they had little power left over to do any sort of filtering. This led to users getting drowned in unwanted e-mail which only exacerbated the existing load issues. This is one of the first things you need to do, figure out why your current system isn't working properly. You'll be better equipped to fix the problems when they've actually been identified.

    HEC Montréal also went for heavy redundancy and specialization. Instead of a handful of servers sharing all of the tasks equally each node in the cluster has its own job with every class of job having a backup server. Every job is going to take a beating with so many users, even if only a fraction of them are using the system at any given time.

    I'd say the most important part of what you're doing will be modeling your current use. Are you getting a ton of traffic from viruses and worms spreading over your internal network? Do you get huge amounts of spam traffic to users? In such cases filtering at your SMTP servers will relieve the rest of the system from extraneous traffic. While you might need really beefy external SMTP servers you won't need nearly as much storage space on a SAN or NAS.

    --
    I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
  19. Army Knowledge Online does it for 1.72 million use by kenblakely · · Score: 5, Informative

    AKO (www.us.army.mil) is the Army's official intranet portal. We provide email for over 1.72M users, and we move almost 3 million messages a day. We do it all with Sun Messaging Server ver5.2 (soon to be Jes3) and we have exactly 2 (count 'em) two mail administrators. Sun mail is rock solid and scales great. We offer POP, SMTP, enterprise SPAM and Virus filtering as well as personal address books besides. We don't get the rich Outlook fat client, but then we want to be all web-based anyway. Can't say enough about Sun mail. If we had to do this with Exchange, I'd have to hire prolly 50 admins and deploy order of magnitude more machines.

  20. Re:Qmail!! by Allador · · Score: 5, Informative

    No. 0.1% != 0.1

    365 days * 24 hrs/day = 8760 hours per year

    0.1% downtime = 0.001 downtime

    8760 * 0.001 = 8.76 hrs

    You're off by two orders of magnitude.

    8.76 hrs / 12 months = 0.73 hrs/month = 43.8 minutes/month

    One 45 minute scheduled downtime (assuming its scheduled) per month isnt terrible. It's not great, but costs really start to go up as you add nines beyond those 3.

  21. Re:Qmail!! by Zarel · · Score: 3, Informative
    The "99.9% uptime is expected" suggests a fixation with Windows NT on flaky servers. 99.9% equates to 876 hours of outage a year. Quite frankly the requirement for 99.9% availability suggests the equirer does not know what they are talking about.
    That's not right... 99.9% uptime means 1/1000 of the time is outage. 1/1000 is less than 1/365, so 99.9% uptime is less than 24 hours a year, not 876. It's actually somewhere around 8. I suppose you meant 8.76 hours of outage?
    --
    Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
  22. Re:Obviously by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 3, Informative
    You run the cleanup agent which shows you the tombstoned mailbox, you can then right click that and reconnect it to any Active Directory user.
    ...right up until the 30-day default and then your "tombstoned" mailboxes are gone, never to return--without the achingly painful "restore server" scenario. Hope you weren't counting on being able to bring them back until the end of time... Because unless you changed the default setting from 30-days, that is all the time you get. Sorry I didn't mention the 30+ days timeframe earlier, but I was on my way to the pub and didn't realize some exchange fanboy would be mortally offended by my least favorite feature of an otherwise decent product.
    --
    Who did what now?
  23. Re:Obviously by joib · · Score: 4, Informative
  24. Backups by Craig+Ringer · · Score: 4, Informative

    Backups.

    With POP3, the client downloads mail and deletes it off the server. Without a significantly butchered POP3 server there's no way to hold copies of that mail for a period of time (say, to ensure it goes on to your archival tapes, or to make sure you can recover files the user deleted accidentally). It's one less thing to worry about if their workstation / laptop dies, too - just give 'em another one. If more mail clients supported LDAP address books and WebDAV calendars this would be even nicer; as it is I still have to keep their mail folders in their network home dir so I can back up their address book.

    You can back up POP3 boxes if you're on a corporate network, by forcing the client to keep its spools on the user's homedir. That tends to be slow and inefficient, though, and it doesn't let you do things like transparently split out attachments and store only one copy of an identical attachment for everybody.

    It's also easy to lose mail with POP3 if your client does something silly. Most clients seem pretty decent now, but I remember old Eudora versions used to DELE mail off the server then crash, corrupting their mailboxes. Woohoo.

    IMAP gives admins much more control over user mail. You can back up their mail folders, including their outbox and filed mail. You can enforce mail lifetime limits if your information retention policy requires it. You can store single copies of duplicate messages and attachments. You can give users access to shared mailboxes, and to each other's mailboxes where necessary. You can manage their mail folders remotely ("I can't delete $message, help!"). You can set up filters that deliver mail into sub-mailboxes automatically. Good clients automatically sync the IMAP mailbox so it can be used when the client is offline, like POP3. You can have your anti-spam software learn from their mail client's Junk folder. It's just much saner for business environments, in much the same way that network home directories and thin clients are much saner than a bunch of desktops with local storage are.

    IMAP also permits you to give the user a single view of their mailboxes from their desktop and when they're on the road, or accessing their mail from home. Don't even talk about "leave mail on server" for POP3 - users WILL misconfigure it and suck all their mail down onto one of their machines, then come to you looking for help cleaning up the resulting awful mess.

    Now, for an ISP, things are the opposite. You want to get the users' mail through your system and get rid of it. Most ISPs only offer POP3 and have small mailbox caps, so the user can't set their client to never delete mail off the server. They don't want to be responsible for user mail, they want it off their hands ASAP. An ISP can just tell a user who deleted a message then wants it back "well, that was silly then wasn't it?". An ISP doesn't want to back up 5 years worth of mail for 500,000 users.

    My point is that for corporate environments IMAP is so superior that it's almost nuts to offer anything else, but for an ISP POP3 is a much more viable option. So what's so bad about POP3 depends entirely on what your needs are.

  25. NMCI Blows by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Informative
    Just so you know. Most of us out in South East Asia refer to NMCI (Navy-Marine Corps Intranet) as the Not Mission Capable Intranet.

    When it works at all it's slow. Sometimes you can hit the Send button and just sit there and wait a while.

    When we have to work on a Navy project we had to start bringing our own equipment and hubs. Even their developer machines come loaded with 10 year old software and you can't get your email and be logged in as a developer at the same time. To check mail you have to log out, log back in under a different account, then log back in as a developer. The NMCI machines are boat anchors.

    NMCI is the worst defeat the US Navy has ever suffered.

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    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage