Slashdot Mirror
Controlling Hurricanes?
Phil Shapiro writes "With the cost of hurricane Katrina running as high as $100 billion, the thought of trying to control the severity of hurricanes should be mulled. Dissipating the energy of hurricanes as they're forming might be within the range of the feasible.
Scientific American tackles this topic in an article last year, as does this crank. (I admit the crank is me.) Is this type of thing feasible, or is it best not even tried at all?"
Could we use massive wind energy plants to remove energy from the weather system?
Crivens! I kicked meself in me own heid!
Jeez. This was on the news what 3 day ago? Anyway.. I don't know if this is an up and coming theonion.com but here it is - a pretty twisted article about how the Yakuza & the KGB are behind it. I give the article 4 stars just based on the WTF factor alone.
What would the global impact be? Are we not trying to control something which is not ment to be controled? We don't even understand global warning 100% yet, now we want to do this?
That's a very good question. Every action has consequences and we need to understand what they are before acting. I wouldn't say "wasn't meant to be controlled" though, who's to say what our noodly master 'meant' us to do?
I would rather concentrate on building technology and common sense (don't build a city below water level - for example).
Technology that could relocate Holland to Tibet?
I just want to know how this would affect the "Hurricane Rains" those of us in the MidWest recieve from hurricanes that form in the Gulf.
Without those hurricanes, how will we get those rains?
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Suppose we were able to steer a hurricane in a limited way using any of these water temperature techniques.
Suppose also that there is a hurricane headed for a major city - say, Miami or New Orleans. And we employ this steering mechanism.
The result is now that some agency decided that a smaller community - say, Mobile AL or Pensacola - bears the brunt of a hurricane instead of the larger city.
Wouldn't the residents of the affected area have some serious legal recourse against whomever "steered" the storm toward them? Is this steering ethical, given that we're essentially choosing one group of people to sustain hardship and death over another?
What about military use of this technology? Instant economic catastrophe for regimes you happen not to care for, whether you're in a shooting war or not. Or even political - making sure a red state gets the storm rather than a blue state. Given the current polarity of American politics, I could certainly see such a decision being made in a smoky backroom somewhere - buried so deep it'll never see the light of day.
Until these storms can be eradicated completely - the ethical and moral questions related to affecting a storm's path and the potential for misuse of that technology would seem to outweigh its usefulness.
Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate)
thomas.loc.gov
S 517 IS
109th CONGRESS
1st Session
S. 517
To establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
March 3, 2005
Mrs. HUTCHISON introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation
A BILL
To establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the 'Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2005'.
SEC. 2. PURPOSE.
It is the purpose of this Act to develop and implement a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modification policy and a national cooperative Federal and State program of weather modification research and development.
SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.
In this Act:
(1) BOARD- The term 'Board' means the Weather Modification Advisory and Research Board.
(2) EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR- The term 'Executive Director' means the Executive Director of the Weather Modification Advisory and Research Board.
(3) RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT- The term 'research and development' means theoretical analysis, exploration, experimentation, and the extension of investigative findings and theories of scientific or technical nature into practical application for experimental and demonstration purposes, including the experimental production and testing of models, devices, equipment, materials, and processes.
(4) WEATHER MODIFICATION- The term 'weather modification' means changing or controlling, or attempting to change or control, by artificial methods the natural development of atmospheric cloud forms or precipitation forms which occur in the troposphere.
SEC. 4. WEATHER MODIFICATION ADVISORY AND RESEARCH BOARD ESTABLISHED.
(a) IN GENERAL- There is established in the Department of Commerce the Weather Modification Advisory and Research Board.
(b) MEMBERSHIP-
(1) IN GENERAL- The Board shall consist of 11 members appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, of whom--
(A) at least 1 shall be a representative of the American Meteorological Society;
(B) at least 1 shall be a representative of the American Society of Civil Engineers;
(C) at least 1 shall be a representative of the National Academy of Sciences;
(D) at least 1 shall be a representative of the National Center for Atmospheric Research of the National Science Foundation;
(E) at least 2 shall be representatives of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration of the Department of Commerce;
(F) at least 1 shall be a representative of institutions of higher education or research institutes; and
(G) at least 1 shall be a representati
Where are the numbers? I get so pissed off everytime somene presents facts they've heard somewhere.
1. Hear about it
2. Check it out
3. Post it with links to sources
And btw: Energy makes things go faster e.g. a car or a hurricane....and heat is form of energy...(I won't provide sources to this as I assume americans used to learn this in school)
Personally, I think you're right. Let's stay above sea level and out of hurricane/flood prone areas but that's not always a simple task.
I think his ideas are interesting, maybe not plausable, but interesting.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
You must build strong buildings, not cardboard houses. That's for sure.
Building a city below sea level should not be a problem if you protect it properly.
I live in the Netherlands where most part of the country is below sea level.
The full article suggests that the first testbed for the technology would be enhancing rainfall. It is to be assumed that this would mean enhancing rainfall in areas that don't get enough of it -- the American midwest, drought-stricken areas of Africa, etc. Realistically, that would probably help more people overall than hurricane prevention, although hurricane prevention would probably win as far as preventing property damage goes. It's hard to argue with the idea of keeping the world's breadbaskets well hydrated, am I right?
And let's not forget the fact that Louisiana's National Guard are mostly deployed over in Iraq. They were not even in place or ready to help the state cope with the disaster, because the Federal government thinks they can be put to better use overseas. Let's also not forget that since 2003, the levy budget has been but a pittance due to lack of contribution by the federal government because of, specifically, needing to fund the Iraq war.
One more thing we can't forget is that a man can make a phone call and order thousands of people to be killed instantly by napalm, but that same man cannot make a phone call and order thousands of water bottles dropped on a city ravaged by a hurricane? Think about this one real carefully: We can more quickly and capably kill our purported enemies than we can help our own citizens. Is that the kind of nation you want to be a part of?
Damn, wish I had mod points. I will add few comments.
First, it has come to no surprise to me that this one man is also benefitting his buddies in oil and contracts. Talk about a contrast between the republican ideal of "help yourself" vs. "helping yourself". Also, there won't be any windfall taxes on oil industry.
Even if the levies were continued funded since 2003, would there have been enough time to fortify them for a Category 5 hurricane? 2005 would have likely been the second year of the project.
Our government can't possibly control the weather!
It's seriously time to wake up, people!
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
Senate Bill S. 517, introduced by Senator Kay Hutchinson (R-TX), on March 3, 2005 is pretty interesting:
S. 517: A Bill to Establish a Weather Modifications Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.
Huh? Can this be for real? You bet: Clicky.
Also interesting, this is supposed to take effect on October 1, 2005! It has only been introduced, so this is unlikely at this point. But still the timing is creepy.
Thanks to Richard C Hoagland's Enterprise Mission web site for the information. Richard is way out there sometimes, but he definately has great credentials.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
There was an article several years ago in the science-fiction/science-fact magazine ANALOG titled, "Defeating the Son of Andrew". It suggested building a huge tall tower designed to transport warm moist air near ground level (of ocean) upward, where condensation and wind-generation would happen inside the tower (source of fresh water and energy!), and because it is supposed to draw warm moist air from miles around, any approaching hurricane will be out of luck -- the energy that would have helped feed the hurricane has already been extracted.
His idea is almost as mad as my idea. And I know mad!
No France
Yeah, I'm sure New Orleans, as both a city and a port will do just fine if we don't allow any residences to be built there. None of those businesses need workers, we'll just replace them all with robots. That should work well.
Refusing to help people that just want to go home is being cold, regardless of what other nice things you want to do. You've got a bunch of very poor people who were stuck living in houses where they could find them. Telling them that you won't help "out of pure principle" is a pretty crappy thing to say.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Simon, I agree with you, what a lot of people don't realize is that hurricanes actually keep our weather system stable. By controlling hurricanes, it keeps this atmospheric energy in the tropics, which will cause more and more powerful hurricanes to spawn. And assuming we develop the system to controlling weather from a pipe dream to the real thing with this fact in mind, there will be a public outcry to wipe out every hurricane before it makes landfall.
Interesting fact, but weather control has been something that we have been playing with since world war two. I'm having difficulty finding trustworthy sources out there because of Katrina and the popularity of the topic. Britain tried using a chemical for a condensation agent on rain clouds in the 40's, and it ended up causing a deadly acid rain, killing scores of people and destroying communities. We now use substances that occur in nature to "seed" clouds over the plains to hopefully make rain, but nothing too crazy.
Finally, the scary part is hurricane control is possible. A scientist has invented an agent made of biodegradable materials. These agents are held together in fine crystals that could be used to sprinkle hurricanes and the path in front of it, when these crystals come into contact with liquid water, it forms a thick gelatin layer, which would significantly halt evaporation, therefore cutting of the energy supply of the hurricane, it will act as if it just made landfall.
Unfortunately, sources are hard to come by at the moment, but these facts were featured on the discovery channel or one of their other networks on a special within the past year. If anybody would like to try to find it and post it, that may help somebody out.
Interesting fact, but weather control has ben somthing that we have been playing with since world war two. i'm having difficulty finding trustworthy sources out there because of Katrina and the popularity of the topic. Britian tried using a chemical for a condensation agent on rain clouds in teh 40's, and it ended up cauing a deadly acid rain, killing scores of people and destroying communities. We now use substnaces that occur in nature to "seed" clouds over th plains to hopefully make rain, but nothing too crazy.
Finally, the scary part is hurricane control is possible. A scientist has invented an agent made of biodegradable materials. These agents are held together in fine crystals that could be used to sprinkle hurricanes and teh path in front of it, when these crystals come into contact with liquid water, it froms a thick gelatin layer, which would significantly halt evaporation, therfore cutting of the energy supply of teh hurricane, it will act as if it just made landfall.
Unfortunately, socurces are hard to come by at the moment, but htese facts were featured on the the discovery channel or one of theirother networks on a special within the past year. if anybody would like to try to find it and post it, that may help somebody out.
"10001110101 - periodic table with a centerpiece of mind" -Clutch
Fool - there were national guard left in the state, and the state government let them sit around. The state government was advised to preposition everything they had before the storm hit to help keep order and control post-hurricane. They did not. They heeded no warnings. You obviously spend too much time listening to Sean Hannity. The governor declared a state of emergency on August 26th, several days prior to the hurricane. His statement that *most* of the LA national guard being in Iraq is indeed incorrect. About 30% was, along with about 50% of the National Guard resources. Requesting national gaurd from other states requires the approval of the Federal Government. A request was made. The request was not granted until 9/2, after the hurricane had made landfall a full 24 hours prior. The president himself declared Lousiana a National Disaster on Friday, two days prior to the hurricane landing. At that point, it became the duty of the federal government's (Department of Homeland Security, specificially) responsibility. According to the President's own directive (HSPD-5): The Secretary shall coordinate the Federal Government's resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any one of the following four conditions applies: (1) a Federal department or agency acting under its own authority has requested the assistance of the Secretary; (2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested by the appropriate State and local authorities; (3) more than one Federal department or agency has become substantially involved in responding to the incident; or (4) the Secretary has been directed to assume responsibility for managing the domestic incident by the President. Now consider that only 1 of these 4 conditions need be met. Considering that the president declared the area a national disaster prior, the feds had already taken on (1). The call for "everything you've got" seems to pretty much state as clear as anything I can see that the local and state governments were pretty clearly overwhelmed, meeting criteria (2). The coast guard, national guard, fema, as well as non-governmental agencies like the Red Cross, feed the children, etc, etc, were all involved, meeting criteria (3). Now, I'm not sure if the president specifically directed the Secretary to become involved, but it's pretty clear at least that he knew the secretary was down there and attempting to manage the situation. If he did, that would match criteria (4), if not, the other (3) still hold up. You can see the Presidential directive for yourself: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20 030228-9.html So yeah, the government screwed up bigtime... but it was the state's and city's faults entirely. It isn't the federal government's job to protect states in this situation... mereley to augment or aid them. So yeah, the government screwed up big time... But it was the federal government's fault entirely, based upon the President's own presidential directive. It was the duty of the Department of Homeland (In)Security to coordinate and (mis)manage and request the appropriate resources immediately upon the declaration of disaster and request by the local and state governments for aid. I think it's ironic that republicans place blame for the (mis-)handling of this disaster purely on local and state government officials, particularly when (Republican) Hailey Barbour of Mississippi would be equally accountable. So, go ahead, and keep ranting the right wing talking points, but the federal government spelled out pretty clearly who to blame here: itself. I keep wondering why it's the federal government's job to build levies in NO, a city. Nevertheless, it would have taken a whole hell of a lot more money than what was asked for by *anybody* to get the levies category-4-hurricane-ready. Consider that the
You're entirely correct, just so you know.
Here in Japan, we're regularly hit by super typhoons (which begin at levels just weaker than a category 5 hurricane). Some storms have hit with winds over 180mph! Yet there is rarely serious damage from these typhoons, because the buildings are all built for this. And it seems that all of the cities are above sea level. This is largely regarded as a Good Idea (TM) when building cities in island nations or close to the coast, especially in areas susceptible to large cyclonic storms.
Just common knowledge, though, nothing New Orleans should be considering while they're pondering rebuilding and the cheapest way to do it...
SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
But why not tackle problems that we know we can solve? Why not just build levies that can stand up to level 5 hurricanes and institute building codes that force buildings to at least be hurricane resistant if not proof. Make those codes retroactive (though I'd wager that if you looked at most of the buildings that are 100+ and properly maintained along the gulf coast, you'd find that they were already 'up to code' because the builders realized, without CNN and the weather channel, that hurricanes rip through there regularly). It's not like we need to invent new technologies to do this sort of thing...and it makes a great deal more sense to do that than to start messing with major natural systems just so Trent Lott can have his poorly and cheaply constructed McMansion protected from a hurricane.
Have you ever considered that God also allows you to be an agnostic if you want to be one?
I sort of agree with you, and sort of don't. I think the most pernicious effect of a welfare state is the increased government power it gives over people's lives.
I can well understand why people dependent on government might come to rabidly hate it and exhibit just the behavior you describe. I blame them about as much as I blame the woman who keeps going back to the abusive boyfriend/husband.
But, the truth here is that given the expectations set and about government responsibilities in a disaster situation, many people's responses were quite reasonable. The government completely failed to live up to those expectations, and needs to be held accountable. I think setting different expectations and dismantling some government agencies is the answer, but I doubt most people will.
Also, given the long-standing corruption of the local police force, and their blatant exhibition of that corruption in the aftermath of the hurricane, I'm not in the least surprised they were shot at.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
This article made me think of an oft neglected factoid between the United States and Russia. Oddly enough in the official Anti-Ballistic-Missile-Treaty there is a clause that states that America is not allowed to use / deploy their weather changing weapons including HAARP against the old Soviet Union.
There is also a UN treaty circa 1976 that basically says the same thing but in more general terms, while again naming the US and Russia.
Now I hate to be 'that guy' but knowing that in all the: legalese, time, preperation, and double checking that went into the ABM treaty that the inclusion of a weather weapon cant be purely speculative or coincidental.
Ok, im taking off the tinfoil hat now (but it does make me wonder sometimes why Bush is so sure that global wearming isnt due to greenhouse gas emission.....)
---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
Hurricanes are ephemeral, they must have near perfect conditions to even form, and must have perfect conditions to grow to be powerfull. Even a fraction of a percent of the storms energy, applied in the correct manner, could disipate or weaken the storm significantly. Something as simple as changing the reflectivity of the oceans surface over a hundred square mile area in front of a storm might be enough. Should we just throw up our hands and give up, or should we look for a way to stop some human suffering and large scale economic loss?
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Celia hit Corpus Christi in 1970. It was an odd hurricane that most residents and weathermen thought was going to stall and dye out before it hit. Three days before it hit it was a tropical depression, when it made landfall it was Category 3 130 mph with gusts to 180 (officially), some stations reported gusts of 210 (probably tornadoes)
Around the same time there were experiments going on in the Mid-West with cloud seeding and it was speculated that someone had tried seeding the tropical depression to see what effect it had on it.
Had the governor ordered evacuations the day after the hurricane hit, many lives would have been saved. I also don't understand why the mayor of New Orleans didn't allow the 2000+ school busses in the city to be used to evacuate those people without transportation.
I remember seeing Governor Kathleen Blanco on the news that day after the huricane hit, and the news anchor repeatedly asked if she would order the evacuation of New Orleans. She basicly said that she didn't see that it would be neccessary to evacuate at that time.
As for FEMA, that idiot Michael Brown needs to be send to one of the evacuation centers to live until the last person displaced is home
Actually, one of the best definitions I have heard of how God is Omniscient was given by Dr. Tony Evans--a minister. He prefaced this comment by saying we should not study too long on it because it will make our heads spin. I know that's a funny statement, but after pondering a while, I did get a headache.
You see, we humans are trying to apply 3-dimensional thinking to an omnidimensional subject. God *is* omniscient because He exists at teh beginning of time and at the End of Time. His consciosness extends across the universes and time itself.
If we see it that way, we would realize that God already knows the result of any decisions he or we make because to Him, it is about to happen, is happening, and has already happened all at the same time. His demenses extend outside of our 3-dimensional physical universe, so applying 3-dimensional linear thinking does not apply.
In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c