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The Evolution of MMOGs - Eve Online

Gamasutra is running an article about the Massively Multiplayer Game Eve Online. Information from senior producer Nathan Richardsson gives a look into the development of the largest concurrent MMO on the market. From the article: "Power to the players. Nothing compares to a player that is enabled to affect the universe. We create tools for players to create content. For example, a massive alliance of corporations - our versions of guilds - with real, legendary players, leading them, controlling large areas of space and building up infrastructure is truly awesome content. We can never create that, but we can create the environment and tools enabling to happen. We're also very iterative in our work and keep continuous feedback cycles on the features we do, then regularly improve them based on that feedback. The community is an incredible source for how to improve the game and what they do within the game gives us constant inspiration for what we should implement next. Being so open-ended means the players do what they want and we try to keep up and add support and tools to take emerging behavior further. Embrace and evolve are the keywords here."

17 of 84 comments (clear)

  1. Not as good as they would have you believe by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have been playing EVE Online for 6 months and it's not all it's cracked up to be. There are some players that absolutely love it. However, the ability to create content and the great graphics in the game does not make up for some fundamental flaws in game play. The problem is that the game boils down to spending hours just traveling or just mining, both tedious activities in the game. Combat can also be tedious in most cases, since it usually becomes showing up at some location and slugging it out. I could deal with those aspects if your skill was in some way tied to your activities, but they are not. Skills are trained simply by turning the training on. Even the skill training system is flawed. There are approximately 200 or so different skills. To be come an expert in combat related skills, for example, it takes about 100 separate skills, training one at a time. I calculated how long it would take me to be fully trained on captaining a battleship, with all the necessary skills for both weapons use, piloting, and maneuvering. With the current system, it would take more than 3 years in real time to finish the training. I'll be surprised if the game lasts another three years. Experienced players (i.e. players who have been playing EVE for a long while) basically can attack inexperienced players with impunity. I have been killed four times so far just for the fun of it by an experienced player in what is supposed to be safe space. Yes, the experienced player is immediately killed by the NPC cops but that's the only penalty. They can make up the loss in an hour, it takes me a week to regain the equipment I lose. Sad to say, I am disappointed in EVE enough to stop playing. I hope some EVE admins read Slashdot, because the way the game works, I would bet you are losing more new players than you would imagine.

    --
    The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
    1. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shortly into the first portion of the article is the revelation that many of the developers were old-school UO PvPers, and that there was an emphasis on PvP for that reason.

      That's enough to ensure I'll never even look at the game, or finish the FA for that matter.

      I don't play games to be someone else's victim. I'm not interested in being part of their sociological experement. I want to be entertained, not greifed.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    2. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are right, of course. It is about personal preference. I decided to try EVE based on number of positive web reviews but obviously I have been disappointed. However, I am still looking for an excellent 3D, first person perspective, space related game. If you know of any, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Parsec, the one game that looked ideal now appears to be dead.

      --
      The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
    3. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by ebrandsberg · · Score: 2, Informative

      As a 1 year old player, while I agree with some points (about how long it takes to train up to the battleship (BS) for example), the point of the game is that you don't HAVE to participate in that. I play a combat character, and don't fly BS's, but instead have focused on smaller ships and in doing so could take out most battleships. Pretty much nobody is perfect in any given aread, which if you could be a perfect player, it would completely ruin the game. In the flip side, because the skills are not tied to "kill, get exp, kill more, get exp, level, continue", the game can be enjoyable for even the casual player, as they can keep up with the die-hard players that play for hours every day. This is also one of the few games where you can play the game and not even focus on combat at all, but instead focus on trade, research, mining, etc. And to be clear, I haven't mined for ages, and haven't had to, so your characterization of having to mine is somewhat misleading, because it is what YOU have chosen to do to make ISK (the monetary unit in the game). Yes, this game does have some flaws, but so do every game, but the game iself makes for a very good game. Why else has it been out for several YEARS, yet continue to have more and more players joining it, as opposed to most games that are loosing players after this much time.

    4. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by j0nb0y · · Score: 2, Informative

      I used to play Jumpgate, a fun little MMO Space Sim. There are no "skills" per se, your skills piloting your ship are your actual skills piloting the ship. I recommend a good joystick for this one =]

      There is a bit of a grind, as you need to level up your experience level and your reputation (with 3 different factions) to buy most equipment.

      The physics are somewhat realistic. To stop your ship, you have to turn your ship around and reverse thrust. Docking is a little tricky, and new players sometimes mess up and wreck their ships in the process. I have done this more than once =]

      At higher speeds, the physics become unrealistic, as your ship will reach a maximum speed based on how powerful your engine is. When I first started playing, it was frustrating to slowly chug through a sector and have higher level players with faster ships just zoom right by.

      All in all, I had a lot of fun when I used to play. Here's the URL:

      http://www.jossh.com/

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    5. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Shadarr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Funny you should mention griefing, since the only thing I really know about Eve is that it provided the backdrop for the greatest scam ever in a MMOG. ALso, I think something you implied but should be spelled out is that the game doesn't just emphasise PvP, but unbalanced PvP. The reason the game is unfun isn't that there's a lot of PvP, it's that the outcome of most PvP battles are predetermined based on the skills of the character and the ship they own. It may be realistic, but it's not fun.

    6. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Shinobi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      3 years is bullshit. A focused character can pilot battleships decently in PvP in less than 3 months(Besides, you need that time just to figure out the finer details of the game mechanics. You'd be surprised at how many idiots there are that just want an "I Win" button, and who don't want to think for themselves)

      And, your player skills do count. But, they are more mental skills than the CounterStrike/Quake Twitch. Which fights can you expect to win? Which fights can you expect to survive? Do you utilize transversal properly? Are you fitted so you can deal with the enemy tackler? How good are you at keeping yourself aware of your surroundings so you see if the enemy gets backup? Do you know where you are in relation to stellar bodies, do you know how long it will take you to align and warp out? Will your cap hold an extended engagement after a long warp-in? Are you able to communicate with teammates, or do you expect to be able to lone-wolf it(Usually a bad idea for anyone lacking even one of the factors I mentioned)

      Yes, EVE has flaws, but the parts you mentioned are not flaws. It creates a more tactical game. If you want twitch-type, you could always play Freelancer

    7. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Shinobi · · Score: 2, Informative

      I want to expand on a point here: Traders: One of the most difficult roles playerwise(Monitoring multiple locations, hauling the stuff quickly etc etc). But a single good trader with the right connections(Yes, you have to be SOCIAL. Who would have guessed that in a MULTI-PLAYER game huh?!?) can do more economic damage to an alliance in just an afternoon than even the best PvP corps can with all their kills.

    8. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by nerdup · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think what you are describing is maxing a character out, which is VERY hard to do in Eve. I have been playing for about 3 months and I'm flying a battleship. I'm flying level 3 missions solo (the current generation supports missions up to level 4), and with one other corp mate I've been flying level 4 missions. There is a lot to do in Eve, as TFA says, and not all of it is missions.

      If you won't be satisfied unless your character is 100% proficient in _everything_, then Eve probably isn't the game for you. But the breadth of the skill system is a big part of what makes Eve really interesting. Do you want a character who is a high-end expert in cloaking and covert ops? Well, it takes time to get there but it's do-able. Same for anything else. My character isn't competitive with someone who has been playing for 2 years, but that's only fair.

    9. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Oveur · · Score: 4, Informative

      As you point out there are some players that absolutely love it. We now have 71.000 customers, experiencing continuous growth since launch, surpassing big titles such as Sims Online, Asherons Call (1&2) and Planetside (See http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html). I can only assume from that fact that your statement is indeed correct and there are some players that absolutely love it ;)

      We will however never be a mainstream game and we have never intended to be so. We have a brutal and harsh universe and embrace PVP, and consciously live with the drawbacks of that decision as a cost of doing business. Your experience of being a miner attacked by a pirate a stellar example of such cost. Nevertheless, would EVE be so unique and growing if it didn't have such an extensive PVP system? I seriously doubt it :)

      However, I can't agree with your estimation of the skill training system, time required to train to be proficient and the gap between experienced players. I'll go in to some basic details first so everyone reading is on the same page;

      In EVE, a skill is trained off-line, each skill involving 5 levels, each level giving an additional cumulated benefit. Since we are talking about combat proficiency, lets take the Small Projectile Turret skill. It allows the Operation of small projectile turrets and gives a 5% Bonus to small projectile turret damage for each level trained, resulting in 25% bonus to damage at level 5.

      The key here is to look at levels 1-4 and compare them to training from 4-5. Training from level 1-4 to get an accumulated bonus of 20% takes a day. Training from level 4-5 to get an accumulated bonus of 25% takes a bit more than 6 days. If I have a decent amount of learning skills trained and implants, these numbers would change to 3/4 of a day and 4 days respectively. I can shave more off with better learning skills, better implants and a character in a combat bloodline. I should also mention that advanced learning skills and implants were released considerably after launch, so older players are at a disadvantage, having spent more time achieving the level they are at today compared to the possible speed of a new player.

      Therefore, the skill system inherently has a built in favoritism towards new players even though off-line skill training would seem to contradict that simply because you spend relatively more time achieving those extra percentages. Surely, a 2 year player will be better off in general than a 6 month player, but if you train wisely, fit for the occasion and position yourself well, you can have him running too.

      Remember, you only need to train for about 5 months to get everything to level 4 which a 2 year character all has to level 5. If you want to advance to higher tech levels however, you start getting training prerequisites of level 5 in certain skills, which again requires you to start selecting what you want to specialize in.

      I assume you the 3 years you mention are to train all those skills to level 5 and you are right, if you want to max out the skills, you will need something in that ballpark. But that also means you can use almost any ship and any module from any race in the game and be pretty damn good at it. Currently, nobody has that ability, EVE is only 30 months old.

      I'd also like to point out a new feature coming up, which is called "Eye for an Eye" which I believe might help your situation. If someone kills you illegitemately, like you describe, you get an "Eye for an Eye" contract on him which allows you to shoot him down whenever you see him - once. I don't know if that is the kind of retribution you are looking for, but it might be.

      Thanks for voicing your concerns, although I don't agree with some of them - but I hope I addressed them to some extent.

      Nathan "Oveur" Richardsson
      Senior Producer - EVE Online

    10. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by Ice+Tiger · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      "Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
    11. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by C0rinthian · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're right, I don't think the OP was being realistic either. But it is misleading to someone who doesn't know the game. It takes time to max out stuff in Eve. That is by design, and to me is actually a positive. There is a LOT of room for growth on the character level. It's just that unlike other MMO's, you don't have to be maxed to be competitive, and maxing out has a relatively small return compared to the time invested.

      It can take a week to get a skill from level 1 to 4, giving say a total bonus of 20% to a stat. Level 5 alone can take a month for an additional 5% bonus. A new player can take 4 different skills from 1 to 4 in the time it takes me to get a single skill from 4 to 5. Thats a 20% bonus to 4 stats vs. a 5% bonus to a single stat.

      The built in diminishing returns on skill training greatly favors newer players in that they get a much higher return on their time investment.

      The OP's statement is like saying that before you can consider PvP'ing in WoW, you need to get all your tier 2 epic class gear. It just has no relation to the reality of the game.

    12. Re:Not as good as they would have you believe by C0rinthian · · Score: 2, Informative
      The fundamental problem with this approach is that it is absolutely impossible for someone starting the game now to ever catch up with a player that started the game a year or more ago.
      This is not true. You are basically making the assumption that more Skill Points means they're better at everything. Many older players did not have the advanced skills we do now. I remember a time when training ANYTHING to level 5 was considered a waste of time. So most vets are a "jack of all trades" simply because they ran out of stuff to train for their first choice of profession.

      I'll use my own character as an example. I started out as a production character, so I started with mining and manufacture, and the ships best associated with mining. (Gallente at the time)When tech II research began, I switched to sciences. Now I have a couple million SP dedicated to R+D. When those were at an acceptable level, I started looking at dedicated combat. Now, keep in mind that I had passable skills (lvl 3-4) in most combat related stuff, but I didn't start specializing until this point, which was about a year after I started. I changed what races ships I wanted to fly, which meant starting from the bottom again, and I've only just recently finished cruiser and battleship 5 for that race, as well as advanced energy weapon skills.

      Essentally, I've near maxed several professions. Mining, production, research, trade, and just recently, combat.

      Now, how can you catch up? Simple. Don't try and be everything at once. Pick a field, and you'll be as good as anyone in it in a few months. I have 27 million skillpoints on my character, But a large portion of that has NOTHING to do with combat. Mining skills, science skills, social and trade, corp management, industrial ship skills, etc. I have all these, and they do NOTHING in a fight. All the SP I dedicated to hybrid weapons and Gallente ships are useless when I'm in my Apocalypse using energy weapons.

      Pick a role and specialize in it, and you'll catch up VERY quickly in that role. You just can't do everything.
  2. EVE is quite an interesting game by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you're a fan of Trade Wars style games or Elite style games, or if you miss the days of old Ultima Online where you could PvP to your hearts content without being screamed at by the playerbase, this is the game you have been waiting for.

    That said, it's not for everyone, and it has a steep learning curve. However, that hasn't detered away their playerbase, and while it doesn't grow at exponential rates, it's stable and growning enough for them to afford the resouces to provide a new free expansion every six months. EVE is CCP's only game. They have no other priorities than EVE, and it's their job to make sure it's a great game...not necissarily one that appeals to the masses, but a great game nontheless.

    --
    I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
  3. Stunningly Beautiful -- Incredibly Boring by popo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    EVE suffers from the *wrong* kind of expansion: It expands at the bleeding edge, at the point where its most experienced players will benefit from the expansions. But the problem is that EVE is in desperate need of expansion at its earliest levels.

    Simply put: EVE is boring. Its a slog. It requires an enormous amount of time to mine resources and travel between points. There is nothing approaching the immediacy of an instanced dungeon. (Yes, they try. No, it doesn't work.)

    Some of the problems are fundamental. Like: "Space is boring". Ultimately space is just a big vacuum. To the developer's credit, they've made it look stunningly beautiful, but after drooling on your keyboard for the first couple hours you'll realize you're in a matter-poor environment. There aren't trees or rocks to hide behind, mountains to get a better view from, stairs to escape up, etc. The occasional floating asteroid doesn't offer much respite from the monotony of, well... nothingness.

    EVE's other problems are more game oriented: The game is mind-numbingly impersonal at first. Despite a few training missions, which teach the player about the interface more than the gameplay there is little in the way of indoctrinating new players into the EVE universe. You feel like a punk. You are a punk. Don't like it? Play for another year. Don't know what to do? Consult another player. (They'll tell you to spend more time ... as in weeks... on something).

    The game cries out for a starter-universe. But more than that, the game cries out for more interaction. In a nutshell, "telling" your ship to dock, is not nearly as much fun as "docking" manually. "Telling" your ship to fire on another ship, isn't nearly as much fun as "Trying to hit" another ship. Granted, the game is not a videogame requiring hand-eye coordination. But in the absence of physical matter and with only scant human beings sighted here and there, an element of competitive gameplay or two might be nice for early players.

    EVE has focused far too much on player retention and not enough on player acquisition.

    If anything, EVE has paved the way for someone to write the next great space-based MMORPG. Its what Everquest or Dark Age of Camelot are to World of Warcraft: the predecessor that vividly paints examples of "what not to do".

    And primarily "what not to do" is annoy early players.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  4. Re:Not for every taste by Shinobi · · Score: 2, Informative

    A friendly advice: Train Navigation 1 if you haven't got it already, then afterburners 1.

    And, train your learning skills if you continue with the game! They are essential. Best pattern is: First Instant Recall to lvl 4, then Analytical Mind to lvl 4. After that, Learning to lvl 4. When you're done with those, go for lvl 5 Instant Recall, then Eidetic Memory up to lvl 5. After that, Analytical Mind, finishing it all off with Lvl 5 Learning. Meanwhile, during that training period, just save up for the advanced learning skills. If you've joined a player corp by then, you might even get help to earn that money(If you're allowed to tag along on lvl 4 missions, you can easily make a couple of millions in one night).

    When you have trained Eidetic Memory to lvl 4, go to Logic lvl 4. Now you can train the other learning skills such as Spatial Awareness/Focus etc. It's a bit boring, but you'll notice that it pays off even one month later, by cutting training times for later skills down by a lot.

  5. People don't get it by pbaer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Eve is not a pve game and there are no training wheels. Please don't complain about how there aren't any massive dungeons etc. because that's not the focus of the it. If you want to do massive raids go play WoW or EQ(2).

    First of all eve does not require massive time investment to become competitive. You don't need 20+million skill points to have a chance only 2million. Player skill is much more important than character skill. Furthermore 2 1million characters > 1 20 million if the 1mils know what they're doing.

    If you want to be truly good at eve you have to think, you can't grind to "max level" and expect to pwn people because skill bonuses are relatively small (2-5% increase in dmg, speed etc. per level) and there's so many nasty things someone can trip you up with if you aren't expecting it or don't know what you're doing. It has a very flexible "class" system which encourages creativity. Because of this a you need to know what you're doing and the limitations of your "class" if you don't want to get rolled.

    --
    There are 11 types of people, those who know unary and those who don't.