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The Point of Google Print

vinohradska writes "Eric Schmidt has written a good article called the The point of Google Print. It clearly lays out the argument against the current lawsuit: 'Even those critics who understand that copyright law is not absolute argue that making a full copy of a given work, even just to index it, can never constitute fair use. If this were so, you wouldn't be able to record a TV show to watch it later or use a search engine that indexes billions of Web pages.'"

25 of 404 comments (clear)

  1. Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by geomon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is about control. I guess I didn't notice the corporate copyright lawyer trawling the library taking photographs of the card catalog, which is an index of books in the library's holdings. Of course our library doesn't *have* a card catalog any more; it has an online search utility. Funny that didn't get mentioned in the lawsuit.

    Who cares if Google has copied every book ever printed. As long as the copyrights of the author and publisher are honored (they don't give copies away for free), the who cares? If I took every book off the shelf from my library, copied them, and then took the copies home and stuffed them in my garage, who would care? That constitutes 'fair use'. But if I start making more copies and giving them away, or give my copy away, now I should be held to account.

    The publishers are just ticked because they see themselves losing control over content. Meet the new RIAA.

    Even those critics who understand that copyright law is not absolute argue that making a full copy of a given work, even just to index it, can never constitute fair use. If this were so, you wouldn't be able to record a TV show to watch it later or use a search engine that indexes billions of Web pages.

    Is Schmidt the only one who gets the webpage angle? I would beat the publishers over the head with this one. What do you want to bet that they all have copyrighted webpages indexed on Google. Did they ever protest this fact?

    --
    "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
    1. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Imagine sitting at your computer and, in less than a second, searching the full text of every book ever written . . . Imagine one giant electronic card catalog that makes all the world's books discoverable with just a few keystrokes by anyone, anywhere, anytime.

      I've added the emphasis to show why there is a problem for many people with this. You can't advertise it as a full text search of every book every written while justifying it by claiming it's just a card catalog. Last time I stopped in at the local library, the card catalog indexed a brief descriptive blurb, publishing date, printing, editor, publisher, author, page count and title. It did not contain the contents of said book.

    2. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by geomon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've added the emphasis to show why there is a problem for many people with this. You can't advertise it as a full text search of every book every written while justifying it by claiming it's just a card catalog.

      Because.....?

      Last time I stopped in at the local library, the card catalog indexed a brief descriptive blurb, publishing date, printing, editor, publisher, author, page count and title.

      And if they had a more automated system then you think they wouldn't offer more?

      It did not contain the contents of said book.

      But even after you get a hit on the search parameters, you don't get the whole book for free, do you?

      I still fail to see how having a digital copy on their hard drive constitutes a copyright violation. If they were to make that image available without charge, then they would be violating the copyright.

      --
      "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
    3. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by silentbozo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think that the publishers are protesting this, for the same reason the RIAA, and the MPAA are trying to stifle ways that make it easier to sell products. The reason is that they're all distribution channels, but in the age of the internet, there are easier, more cost-effective methods of distribution (ie, direct downloads, Amazon.com, etc.). More so than that, they are MARKETING MACHINES - the reason Author X, or Band Y wants to sign with Publisher Z, is that Publisher Z can front a million dollars pushing product into people's faces, and thus drum up large sales volumes... but only on NEW product.
       
      You notice that many of the new technologies (iTunes, eBooks, etc.) really mostly benefit older back-list titles. This is because there is no marketing, production, or distribution budget for these things. There are few, if no jobs in promoting these backlist titles, whereas there is a lot of money in promoting the new stuff.
       
      Things like Google Print will help promote sales of older items, and I think the fear is among the publishers, is that their ability to push new content will be drowned out, and they'll all lose their jobs. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of kickbacks, marketing contracts, air time, cushy offices, the whole idea of exclusivity - all down the toilet, because people only have so much time. If they can find what they're looking for without having the consumer Big Brother tell them what they want, then what use are these marketing organizations, especially when most of the new product they peddle is crap to begin with?

    4. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I still fail to see how having a digital copy on their hard drive constitutes a copyright violation.

      Because they're making a copy without the permission of the copyright holder, apparently without being covered by any exemption?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by Eustace+Tilley · · Score: 4, Informative
      You are mistaken. From Google Print's FAQ:
      #I'm already logged in. Why are you telling me the page is unavailable?

      As part of our efforts to protect a book's copyright, a set of pages in every in-copyright book will be unavailable to all users.

      # I really need to see more of this book. What can I do?

      Google Print helps you discover books, not read them online. To read the whole book, we encourage you to use the "Buy this book" link to purchase it online or the "Find this in a library" link to look for a local library that has it.
    6. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by ornil · · Score: 5, Informative

      Trust me, knowing that a book exists is already very helpful, even if you can't obtain it immediately. If a book is in print, then you can buy it. If it's in the public domain you can access it immediately. If it is out of print, but not in the public domain, then you may still be able to buy it used. Even if you can't, your local public library can obtain just about any book that's been published for you. If it is something extremely rare, but you really need it, then it is still useful, because you can fly over, or contact the library by phone and explain your circumstances, or find someone with access to the library who can obtain the necessary information.

      If you don't know whether the books exists, you can do neither of those.

    7. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by (negative+video) · · Score: 3, Insightful
      4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
      I think this can only increase the market...?
      What Google is doing destroys the value of licensing a book to a commercial search service. For example, a publisher could give an exclusive full-text search license to Amazon, who could then use their "customers who purchased this also purchased..." to increase sales of the publisher's other titles.

      Remember, the whole point of book copyright is control. The author doesn't just get a certain number of pennies for each copy, he gets exclusivity, which is much more useful for building a self-sustaining business. We can argue whether it should be that way, but right now that's what the law says.

      And the control cuts both ways. If a publisher tries to sneak cigarette advertisements into a novel against the author's will, the copyright holder can haul them into court and get major financial damages. (This example is not theoretical. Some sleazeball publishers actually did this to, IIRC, Harlan Ellison. And then probably wished they hadn't.)

    8. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by EvanED · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Given that this can only help the market, I'd say this stands a very good chance of being deemed fair use.

      I disagree. If Google were a nonprofit organization or something, they might stand a chance, but I think that the fact that they are a for-profit, public company significantly hurts their case. They're doing Google print for direct financial benefit, and the publishers and authors only gain indirectly. (In other words, stop thinking of Google as a search engine, website, very useful service and start thinking of it as a company.) Publishers could make a compelling argument in my opinion that they are entitled to a portion of Google's revenue. And that's just my opinion from a philosophical standpoint.

      The user (negative video) makes a very good point beyond just the philosophical stance that Google offering Google Print more or less destroys opportunities for publishers to cash in on similar business ventures by offering pay-for exclusive full text searches on their own website, licencing it to, e.g. Amazon, etc. See his post.

    9. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by Echnin · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's a copy. The fact that they don't transmit that copy anywhere doesn't matter.

      Yes it does. Copying is allowed under fair use; distrubuting is not.

      --
      Lalala
    10. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by sk0pe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are absolutely right. Here's the CRITICAL point in this whole argument:

      All Google has to do to make everybody happy is to make this an opt-in program.

      I work for an independant Australian publisher (which is owned by the people actually writing the books). As a geek, I am completely in favour of the Google Print program's objectives. I mean, it's really an amazing idea, and I'm all for it. However, I cannot understand Google's attitude here. Google have suddenly become really arrogant. This isn't the Google we have come to know and love!

      There are a couple of problems with as I see it:

      1. This is an opt-OUT program. Fundamentally, this is flawed. I mean even webpage search engines are opt-in. Your website doesn't get indexed unless you submit it, yet Google are using the webpage parallel as an example of why they should be allowed to proceed with the Print program.

      2. Since they are not gaining permission from the publisher (or copyright holder), and it is debatable whether the program falls under the Australian Copyright Act provisions for permissable reproduction, storage and retrieval, the whole Australian section of the project is under a legal cloud.

      3. The real reason that publishers have to pursue this, even if it is ascertained that the program IS legal, is that copyright can be reneged if you are not seen to be defending your rights. It sets a precedent. In other words, if someone else came along wanting to copy your works, but you had not challenged Google, the courts COULD say (if it was argued) "You knew what Google was doing, you allowed it, therefore you are not really concerned about your copyright on these works. Thus, anyone else who wants to copy these works should be allowed." (Of course, that is a very simplistic version of an interpretation of the law.)

      Thus, although the publishers might be in favour of the goals of the program (as we are here) it must still be challenged, even if it is only to determine that what Google is doing DOES fall within the provisions of the Copyright Act. This then shows that the publishers are defending their rights, and means that it is no easier for people to abuse their works.

      Google, if you're reading this, how about just making it opt-in? That'll solve all the issues, and we can all still benefit from this amazingly ambitious project.

      --
      Tempus fugit sub anesthesia.
    11. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by LMariachi · · Score: 4, Informative
      even webpage search engines are opt-in. Your website doesn't get indexed unless you submit it...

      What on earth are you talking about? Any general search engine worth using is opt-out via robots.txt. Do you really think every page indexed by Google was actively submitted to them?

      The real reason that publishers have to pursue this...is that copyright can be reneged if you are not seen to be defending your rights.

      With the amount of IP-related discussion on Slashdot, it's amazing how often this misinformation is still expressed. It's only trademarks that may be forfeited for lack of defense. Not copyrights, not patents -- trademarks.

      So your whole post boils down to "it's debatable." A trenchant analysis indeed.

    12. Re:Publisher's Have a Bug Up Their Ass by EvanED · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Copying is NOT allowed under fair use. It is allowed for plenty of cases, but by no means all.

      The courts rule whether a use fits under fair use based upon an analysis of four factors. There are virtually no hard and fast rules for what constitutes fair use. The fact that they are copying entire works for commercial gain probably pretty much rules out fair use.

      (Also, if fair use allowed all non-distributing copying, why would reproduction be listed as one of the copyright holder's exclusive rights?)

      Here are my thoughts (quotes from 17 USC 107):

      the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

      This is being done by a for-profit company for commercial gain. Weighs strongly against Google.

      Works aren't actually distributed, weighs for Google.

      Both are strong forces. Overall, this is probably neutral.

      the nature of the copyrighted work;

      Another poster in a long-ago story about Google Print gave an analysis about this point that consisted of balancing the factual nature of the works. According to that poster, fiction books weigh against Google more than fiction books. (Facts can't be copyrighted.) This analysis sounds reasonable, and I don't know any better.

      But all-in-all, this point is probably reasonably neutral.

      the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

      Google's copying the entire work, and not only THE entire work, but LOTS of entire works. This weighs strongly against Google.

      the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work

      May help, may not. The impression around here is it can't hurt, but there's one poster who makes a very good point about how Google Print could hurt: it more or less destroy's the position of publishers to offer their own for-pay search services or licence their libraries to other search services. On balance, because of that issue, I'd say that this point weighs weakly against Google.

      So we have two neutral points vs. two points against Google, one strongly against.

      I don't think Google will come away from this.

  2. rational of opposing google print? by matt4077 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aside from law issues, I don't see the business case against opposing google print. Could the net effect be anything else but higher sales due to the amount of people who will find just the right book when searching through google?

    The only reason I could see is strategy: the publishers are afraid that google print could be _so_ successful that it gains power against them, ultimately maybe even replace them and directly connect authors and publishers and providing a print-on-demand service. A situation not unlike Apple vs. The Record Companies.

    1. Re:rational of opposing google print? by schon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't see the business case against opposing google print. Could the net effect be anything else but higher sales due to the amount of people who will find just the right book when searching through google?

      The business case is simple:

      "It's my football."

      I've talked to a publisher about something similar, and his attitude was "I don't care if it will make me more money - if I want it indexed, I will do it myself, so I can charge for it. I don't want anyone but me making money by providing a service for my products, even if it's a service I can't or won't provide myself."

      They don't care about more money, all they care about is control.

  3. Have these publishing companies by Chickenofbristol55 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    even used google print? You can barely see any of the book, just the "about" page in the beginning. This service is used to DISCOVER books. If millions of people can search and find the book they have been looking for, and they happen to buy it off of amazon let's say, why in hell would they sue Google. THIS WILL ONLY HELP PUBLISHING COMPANIES SELL MORE BOOKS.

    --
    public class null extends java applet { System.out.print ("Tabula Rasa"); }
    1. Re:Have these publishing companies by kebes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're right, and probably the copyright-holders know that they stand to make more money from google print. The question is, how much and when, and for how long? I think google print, in the short term, will increase sales of books. But as others have pointed out, the danger (as far as publishers see it), is that eventually google print will be viewed as THE WAY to find/get/buy books, and eventually the publishers will become unnecessary. Authors could sign directly with google (or just upload their book to google free of charge?), and they could start selling copies immediately, without needing a publisher.

      In my opinion, cutting out middle-men in copyright-work fields (music, books, etc.) is often not a bad thing (proofreading and sound-engineering will always be needed, but will record labels and publishers?). I'm fully in favour of google print and all it represents. Google print is a good thing for authors and for readers. It is not such a great thing for (some) publishers.

      From a business point of view, the publishers might be right that this is bad. They realize they are getting screwed in the long run. Of course, the very smart publishers will realize what is happening and modernize their systems. For instance, I use scientific journals alot, and most of them have realized that by putting the journals online, they offer a much more important service than the print version ever did. They are adapting and will continue to thrive. The publishers that can't get with the program will die off... and in my opinion they should.

  4. Evolution happening before our eyes by serutan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Google print, Amazon book search, this lawsuit and others are just small steps in the evolution of copyright into something else. I don't think we can anticipate what that will be, any more than our ancestors anticipated a day when making and distributing copies of information would be as easy as talking. In the time it's taken me to type this message I could have sent the lifetime works of Benjamin Franklin to someone on the other side of the world. Not just his published writings, but every single word he ever wrote down. It's ludicrous to think that our ancestors would have formulated copyright in the same way if they had known what we know, or that copyright shouldn't evolve like everything else.

  5. Re:Playing devil's advocate by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 4, Interesting
    THE PUBLISHERS RECEIVE ZERO RENUMERATION

    At first, I thought, "Huh? Why would the publishers be renumbered at all?". Then I realized you meant to say "THE PUBLISHERS RECEIVE ZERO REMUNERATION".

    Then I thought, "Huh? they didn't receive any money under the old way either -- when I visited the library to find my quotes."

    First get your facts straight. Then you can distort them as you please. -- Mark Twain

  6. Is Indexing the Root Password to Infringement? by samuel4242 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's a fairly funny satire about Google Print:

    http://www.vortex.com/reality/2005-10-23

    It argues that you can copy anything you want-- as long as you promise to index it and put the index on the web. Then you can keep the text around and do what you will. If anyone gives you a hard time, come up with some inane opt-out policy with a real nasty bureaucracy and blame them for being uncool.

    I hate to say it, but this satire convinced me that Google is pretty sleezy. The creators are getting nothing and a bunch of guys who happen to build a few automated indexers are multibillionaires. I'm happy to reward innovation, but this is nutty.

  7. This editorial is exactly right by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I certainly think that the world would be a better place if Google won its suit against the publishers, for exactly the reasons stated in the editorial. Will they? It's hard to say. We have judges with extremely political agendas, who do not often enough explicitly set out to do good rather than just doing the bidding of the politician who appointed them.

    So suppose it's a close call, because there is no precedent in copyright law that exactly anticipates this sort of search capacity. One option for a judge would be to try to bend some precedent to fit the case, but I think that would be wrong to do here. You see, nobody thinks that copyright law is supposed to mirror anything like moral law. This isn't like murder or perjury. Copyright laws exist only for the purpose of their good consequences. We allow people to own copyrights and patents only to encourage them to produce good stuff by making sure they will be financially rewarded for that stuff. The good consequence of this system is (supposed to be) that it provides us with more good stuff. That is its only justification.

    Because of this, I think decisions about copyright should not take the original laws as sacred, on the level of moral laws, and instead maintain the pragmatic spirit of the original laws themselves. When we're unsure about precedents, we should ask: Which ruling would have the better consequences? And I think it's clear for reasons outlined by Schmidt that allowing Google to go on will have better consequences for researchers (obviously), but also for publishers, because it's free advertising. This will disproportionately benefit small, specialty presses who don't have the means to get the word out about what's in their books. This should be reason enough to allow Google to continue.

    Of course, they might turn evil at some later time, or (gasp) unveil a revenue model to make back all the money they spent on scanning. But this is the sort of this that companies should be encouraged to do for money. They really are improving the lives of people through their work, without taking anything away.

  8. Piracy vs. Obscurity by Brett+Johnson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Tim O'Reilly made an excellent point in support of Google Print when he
    pointed out that the biggest threat to authors is not piracy, but obscurity.

  9. Re:Orphaned works by Peyna · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    What?
  10. This in combination with ABE will kick ass. by douglips · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The ABE (http://www.abebooks.com/) is a searchable inventory of a gazillion independent bookstores world wide.

    If Google Print tells you the book exists, you can go to ABE and find it in some bookshop in New Zealand, and order it with your credit card. I've used ABE to buy books that are out of print on several occasions.

    Now, if Google integrated their Print search with ABE, then the "buy it now" could be buying it from that rare bookseller in the middle of nowhere.

    This kicks all kinds of ass.

  11. Re:Doesn't meet the same need by cheezit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The parent post is making a different point. Publishers are not "sellers of books"---book distributors do that. Publishers are "marketers of books" and as such have invested large amounts of money in setting up a system for creating demand for their product.

    The modern consumer is bombarded with thousands of marketing messages a day and publishers can't afford to have the consumer's attention divided, even if it might generate a few more bucks on old titles. Think of it like Microsoft, having trouble competing against its own installed base of Win95/98/ME/2K users. The risk is that the complex network that creates a publishing "phenomenon" might start breaking down.

    Take Oprah's book club...the big publishers are actually somewhat ambivalent about it. It generates demand and the type of "phenomenon" they need in order to justify their continued existence, but they can't control what Oprah chooses. The functioning of this demand-generating system requires that these big publishers control the entire lifecycle. Hence it is highly vulnerable to disruption and they are alert to anything that might represent the first major crack in the edifice.

    --
    Premature optimization is the root of all evil