Slashdot Mirror
High-Tech RepoMan
PlayfullyClever writes "A new gizmo is upping the odds that even the most hard-knock customer will come up with the car payment. Hooked into the ignition system, the gadget comes in a handful of versions with one common conclusion:
No pay, no start.
It's worked wonders at Norfolk's Patriot Auto Sales, where nearly every car that drives off the lot is outfitted with a PayTeck Smart Box, a system that hands over a five-digit code in exchange for each payment. Come due date, the car won't crank until the customer punches the code into a palm-size keypad wired into the dash.
I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
"I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
From TFA:
"Buyers sign forms acknowledging the Smart Box, agreeing not to tamper with it and promising to return to the dealership for a free removal after the last payment is made."
That implies that screwing with it in any way will get you into trouble if you get caught. That's not to say that somebody won't try, but it also implies that they have a means of catching you.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
If the company using it saved money overall and could give you a better price than the competition.
Well, at least people with bad credit histories will be given the chance of buying to buy a car. It won't matter for those who have the money, but it just might be good for those who are poor.
If you read the article you would find out that the only people who would accept this are people who can't get anyone to loan them money for a car that works.
My brother runs a car lot in Memphis and has been using a device like this for years.
Sure a saavy mechanic can find the ignition lock out and disable it, but its in the contract that people sign at purchase that they will not disturb it, and is a felony to tamper with it (at least in Tennessee).
He's had a few folks defeat it and stop making payments, but eventually something happens to get the car repo'd and the customer in hot water. He says he's lost a very tiny percentage of the hundreds of cars he's outfitted with the ignition lock out.
--
We don't NEED no stinkin' sig
Not really. It just means that they would fall back on the existing system, that is, physical repossession. In other words, it's no worse than the current system (from their perspective), and might encourage the non-hackers (eg almost everyone) to pay up.
This is probably less expensive than having to go out and repo cars for late payments which usually results in exorbitant (300-500 dollars) charges in order to get the car back in addition to making all the late payments. At least this way, you call up, do an electronic payment and you can get your car back right away without being extorted for repo fees.
Cool, you don't just get the car but also a nice keypad that comes with it. * hotwiring rental as usual *
On se Internetz nobody noes your German.
Repo men, whatever you think about their profession, risk their lives daily in order to prevent auto theft, which in a way is what failing to pay car payments is.
It isn't even like loan companies send out the repo man after your first failure to pay. You typically get several months of haggling and pleading before the loan company has no other alternative but to send someone out to repossess the automobile. And the repo man is frequently in danger from people who don't have enough money to pay the loan companies but usually enough to buy bullets.
Using a technical measure to disable cars, making them useless to the owner, is a great idea. It works with drunk drivers and car thieves. Just kill the engine and the car isn't going anywhere. The loan company can then repossess the car at their leisure, along with adding extra pressure on the defaulting "owner" to pay.
The real bottom line is not to over-extend your finances. Try to buy large items like cars with cash. The worst monetary investment you can make is to take out a loan to pay for a car you can't afford.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
Security-expert-turned-law-prof Nick Szabo predicted this kind of thing many years ago. He called it a Smart Contract. The idea was to use technology to make contracts self-enforcing. Like many of Nick's ideas, he was and is way ahead of his time. These kinds of things are inevitable.
Yeah, worst case scenario, but a liability nonetheless. The reason this system won't be accepted is because the current system is one based on trust and legal consequences. You purchase/lease the car with the expectation that it starts whenever you want it to. Even if there is a problem with the billing system of your credit card company or bank, or with the company who maintains the payment records for your car.
They are assuming some amount of risk by letting you make your payments over a period of time and in return they tend to get more money than if you paid it all up front. That is how the system has always worked, and thats how it will continue to work because not enough people will be stupid enough to lose their end of that bargain.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Most of the people who are not making payments are poor people who cant afford to do so or con artists looking for a free ride (pun intended), not automotive electrical engineers who can bypass the elecronic ignition cutoff that this thing must be hooked to.
.. ah yes, gamers you know the words, say them wtih me...
Could the experienced person tinker with this and get away with the car? Perhaps. I think its a good system. Its meant to be more of a pain in the ass than anything. I know of some dealers who install GPS signals into the cars they sell to their "good credit-bad-credit-no-credit-come-one-come-all" customers. No pay, they repo the car. The reciever is hidden in some crazy place like behind the dash so the customer will never find it.
Also remember that if the do go delinquent on their payments, and the dealer files the car as stolen... they are then commiting
GRAND THEFT AUTO.
this kind of enter a pin number to start the car would stop a lot of car thefts probably. and maybe even drunk drivers (i know someone who had an unlock code for his phone that was ridiculously long so that he didn't make stupid calls when drunk, if he was so messed up he couldn't get it right he assumed it was a bad time to call)
I fixed the summary for ya:
"I would think this 'Smart Box' would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies exactly where they are now."
Surely it's not like this box makes it *easier* for someone to stop paying?
Well, at least people with bad credit histories will be given the chance of buying to buy a car. It won't matter for those who have the money, but it just might be good for those who are poor.
Actually, it's still extortion plain and simple. There is a local "buy here, pay here" car dealer that has been using these devices for quite awhile. You would think that in exchange for getting put a device on a car that you own that they would give the people with shitty credit history a break on the interest payments. After all, isn't the theory behind charging people with lousy credit higher interest that you need to do so in order to recoup losses? Not as much room for losses with this system.
Of course it doesn't work out that way in practice. They still charge anywhere from 15%-25% on a car loan. It's legalized loan sharking that takes advantage of the most desperate among us.
I'd also point out that even if you need a loan to buy a car you still own that car outright. The only thing that the bank/financing company has in the car is a security interest. This is not the same as them owning a percentage of the car. So why the hell should they be allowed to require this?
I would encourage everybody out there to avoid the whole problem by not buying a car that you need a loan on. I have never spent more then $2,000 on a car. Sure, I spend some money in repairs -- but the year end figure doesn't come close to most car loans (which still need repairs). And driving cheap ghetto cars allows me to avoid having to pay for expensive collision coverage.
Failing that, if you must have a nice car and can't afford to buy it outright, then get the loan for your car from your credit union or local community bank. Why the hell should we be doing the auto financing companies any favors?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
There are people in Michigan that leave their cars running during work. They do this because this device does not shut off your car in the middle of it being on. Too many accidents were caused by this. This is a normal thing among the Detroit area. Plus the sales lot that has this gizmo charges ubsurd interest rates and doesn't do a credit check and people still sign up!!
Before we get too far into the comments going on and on about how we wouldn't accept these in our cars and yadda yadda, we have to stop and remember one thing.
For the majority of people, you wouldn't need a system like this. Why? Because the majority of people, especially here, have reputable credit and can get a car loan, or have cash on hand to put a significant amount down.
I have a good friend who works in auto sales, and things in the used car business have become so bad, in terms of financing, that they were getting customers on the lot, essentially 'sold' them the car, and then couldn't get any banks to finance them. So what were they left doing? Financing the sale themselves.
Basically, you agree to pay the car dealership directly, instead of a bank. This puts a lot of pressure on the dealership, because instead of getting, say $12,000 upfront, in one payment from a bank, they are now getting monthly payments of $250 for the next 5 years or so. In doing this, they are really hanging their rear out, because if that customer makes two payments, and disapears off the face of the earth, that dealership has no way of tracking them, or their car, down.
That's why these systems are catching on so quickly, not as another form of 'big brother', but as an alternative for someone out there who needs a car, and can make payments, but can't get financed through a bank. This way, a dealership can move cars off their lot, and still protect their investment.
If you don't want a system like this in your car, the solution is simple, keep good credit. If you do that, then you'll be able to get bank financing, not get ripped off by a car dealership, and don't have to worry about 'big brother' in the passanger seat.
No man is an island, But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie them together, they make a pretty good raft.
How about banner ads running across my dashboard to reduce my payment?
You don't own it, the lot owns it, you're making payments and they are allowing you to drive the car. Once you pay off the loan its yours to do with as you wish, but if you fall behind on the payments, its their right to seize their property.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Actually, quite a lot of the people who have bad credit _know_ how to bypass this sort of thing.
You don't ask rich people to help you fix your car. Rich people who can fix cars are called "mechanics" and "shop owners", and won't help you for a twelve pack. Poor people fix their own cars, or junk 'em and buy another one for $300.
Now, bad with credit != poor, but bad with credit != stupid, either. And poor != stupid as well. But most people I know who are handy with a wrench fall below the poverty line.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
You don't own it, the lot owns it, you're making payments and they are allowing you to drive the car. Once you pay off the loan its yours to do with as you wish, but if you fall behind on the payments, its their right to seize their property.
I'm sorry, but in virtually every sane auto contract that is not so.
If I buy a car from a dealership then I am going to get a bill of sale. I will eventually get a title from DMV that shows that I own that car. The title will also reflect the security interest of whomever gave the loan for that car (assuming I didn't buy it outright) -- but the fact remains that I own the car.
A security interest is not the same as them owning the car. The lot got paid for the car by whomever I got the loan from. It's the same theory behind a secured credit card (another typical ploy used to screw people -- WTF does a secured credit card with no risk to the issuer require massive fees and 20% interest??). The bank doesn't own the funds you deposited into the account to get the card -- they only have a security interest in them.
Now I can't speak for the contracts that you sign if you buy a car from a carshark "buy here, pay here" type guy. I'm not stupid or desperate enough to do business with one.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I don't know how things work where you are, but in Australia, when you buy a car, you own the car.
When you get finance from the car yard, you're actually getting it from a financial institution that the yard has an agreement with. They give the car yard the money, you get the car, and you pay the financial institution, not the car yard.
When I pick up the car, I take the ownership papers down to the government shopfront, pay the stamp duty and get the ownership transferred into my name. Nowhere does the car yard's name, or the finance company's name appear on the new ownership papers. It's my car.
It only becomes the finance company's car if I default on the loan, as it is security towards that loan. The only other place I have to mention the finance company is on my insurance policy - presumably so that if its written off, my insurance company will just pay the finance company the balance directly.
I was in the navy and yes I was stationed in Norfolk, VA. Most of these used car dealerships in Norfolk area are some of the most sleazy joints I have ever encountered. I have seen some of them sell poor newbie sailors crap like a 500 dollar beat up pinto for tens of thousands of dollars. Hell I used to be a mechanic in the area and some of the patch jobs I did on engines and stuff for some of these sleazy dealerships was simply scary. They used to bring me stuff that had rings so shot that the cars looked like a mosquito fogger going down the road. I would swap out the oil with some good ole synthetic (does not smoke when burning) and shoot it down the road. The dealership would sell it to some fool with a 30 day warranty on the engine and laugh their way to the bank.
The state could step up and do something about it by applying reasonable intrest rate caps like a bunch of states do.
Got Code?
> You would think that in exchange for getting put a device on a car that you own...
Once you pay for it.
> I'd also point out that even if you need a loan to buy a car you still own that car outright.
Once you pay for it.
> So why the hell should they be allowed to require this?
Because they just let you drive off with a $3000 car after forking over $250.
> I would encourage everybody out there to avoid the whole problem by not buying a car that you need a loan on.
I would encourage everybody out there selling cars to tell people like you to enjoy riding the bus.
> I have never spent more then $2,000 on a car.
Glad to hear it. I hope you enjoyed following Phish around and selling tofu veggie poop nuggets to other unwashed trust-fund hippies.
> And driving cheap ghetto cars allows me to avoid having to pay for expensive collision coverage.
On behalf of those of us who have to pay inflated insurance rates to cover your accidents, eat cock and die.
> Failing that, if you must have a nice car and can't afford to buy it outright, then get the loan for your car from your credit union or local community bank.
Ooh! A local community bank! It's the next best thing to open-source money! Fight the power! Che lives! Play "You Enjoy Myself," you faggots!
> Why the hell should we be doing the auto financing companies any favors?
You shouldn't! Stick it to them! Be mad as hell and don't take it any more! It's not like they're doing anything for *you*, man! FREE HUEY!!
But that's what this lot is, lot financed cheap transportation. Even still, if you don't own a car outright, even from a reputable dealer, that title has a lien set against it that is callable if you ever violate your payment contract, even if the loan is with a company not related to the dealer (ie your bank/credit union).
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
You can point till the cows come home. Legally your still wrong.
Umm, bullshit. Do you not know what a Lien is? To quote: "In U.S. law, lien is the broadest term for any sort of charge or encumbrance against an item of property that secures the payment of a debt or performance of some other obligation."
A lien tells somebody who might be looking to buy your property that somebody else has a security interest in it. This does not mean that you don't own the property. It will probably prevent you from transferring ownership of that property until that lien is satisfied but it does not change the fact that you own that property yourself.
In fact, even if the property is transferred the lien will usually survive and the new owner has to deal with it. A good example would be a house that was seized by the government for taxes that still had a mortgage against it. If you buy that house at government auction you are going to have to come to terms with the bank that holds the lien against it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Even still, if you don't own a car outright, even from a reputable dealer, that title has a lien set against it that is callable if you ever violate your payment contract, even if the loan is with a company not related to the dealer (ie your bank/credit union).
But that lien doesn't mean that they own the property. It only means that they have an interest in the property and it may serve to restrict your rights regarding the transfer of that property. It doesn't restrict any other rights that you may have.
If it did, then buying a house would be just like renting it until you paid off your mortgage. Why should the bank let you pound holes the wall to hang pictures and paint the walls any color but white? Most landlords won't in a renting scenario. The answer is that the bank doesn't own your house -- they only have a security interest in it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
A few years ago I developed a GPS-based system for tracking vehicles. Long story, but the client's original business plan didn't work--but his sales manager cottoned on to the idea of installing the units in cars at buy-here, pay-here car lots.
I bitched and moaned, and eventually dropped the client--in part because of the liability exposure, and in part because of the general sleaze. But I learned a bunch along the way.
How buy-here, pay-here car lots can do this:
It's simple: when you "purchase" a car from a buy-here, pay-here car lot, you're not buying the car. What you're doing is technically signing a "lease-purchase" contract: you're leasing the car until the final payment is made. That means the car dealer doesn't have a secured interest in the car--he OWNS the car. If you miss a payment, he picks up the car--and you have nothing.
That's dramatically different from a typical car purchase. If you buy a car from a new car dealer--or a reputable used-car lot--you will almost always finance the car. If you finance the car at the dealer (generally not a good idea) you'll sign something that looks like a loan agreement, but is technically called a Retail Installment Sales Contract (RISC). It is a contract to pay for the car over a certain period of time. The dealer then sells that contract to a bank or finance company. Key point: you are buying the car, and signing a contract to pay a loan--securing the loan with the car's title. Suppose you buy a $25,000 car, and put down $5,000 in cash and trade-in on your old car. Suppose you lose your job two weeks later, and can't pay the loan. You tell the bank--they'll be perfectly willing to take the car, liquidate the loan (by selling the car at auction), and give you the difference between what they sell the car for, and the balance on your loan.
With a lease-purchase agreement, it doesn't work that way. The car belongs to the dealer, not to you. If the dealer suckers you into putting money down, you have only the contract language (if any) to guarantee that you'll get anything back if the car is repossessed.
Buy-here, pay-here is a very bad deal
Bottom line: if your credit is so bad that you have to agree to install any kind of automated device to track you or force you to pay, you shouldn't be buying a car. First, you clearly are going to have trouble affording the car. Second, the cars the buy-here, pay-here crooks sell are typically heaps of junk: the cars left over at the auction that nobody wants to buy. A 1992 Ford with 150,000 miles on it isn't just going to require a monthly (or weekly) payment to the dealer--it's going to require a steady stream of parts and repair bills to keep rolling. Your chances of keeping that heap rolling for the two or three years of the "loan" are slim: and if the heap dies, you're still stuck paying credit card interest rates, and you don't have wheels.
That lien is callable the momment you default on the terms of the contract, its not a matter of them sending a real repo man out then it becomes callable. This device secures their interest in the property, well within their rights.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
It's a little hard to find but I did find this on the NYSDMV page.
To quote: "Before you accept the title certificate from the seller, check the front of the title for the names and addresses of lien holders. A lien indicates the current owner owes money on a loan for the vehicle. If a lien is listed on the title, ask the seller to give you the proof the lien has been paid - in most cases, it will be an official lien release from the lender. If proof is not provided, the lien holder could repossess the vehicle from you."
You'll note they use the term "current owner". A lien simply records the fact that somebody might have a security interest in the property. It does not mean they own it. It gives them a legal means of seizing that property if any obligations are not met -- but until they seize it they do not own it.
I'm kind of surprised by the number of people sticking up for these assholes. Why is this any different from RIAA treating their customers like criminals? I sign a contract with my bank to borrow money with a promise to pay that money back. Why the hell should they get to assume that I won't and require me to modify my property?
Will mortgage companies require that you use a keypad locking system on your house that keeps you from leaving/entering if you fall behind on your payments? It also seems rather stupid to disable the car if they miss one payment. Yeah, I'm sure somebody that falls on hard times and misses a payment will find it real easy to make money to catch up on payments when they don't have transportation.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
This really depends on where you live. In Ontario Canada, there's no fault insurance. Which, basically says, that you buy insurance to cover your own car. It doesn't matter whether who's fault the accident was, or whether is not your car was parked when the accident happened. You pay for your own coverage. If you think you want coverage in case of a collision, then you pay for it yourself, and when something happens, you go to your insurance company, and they pay you the money. It doesn't matter if your car was parked, and someone drives over it with a humvee. If you don't pay for insurance to cover it, insurance companies aren't going to pay for it.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I own and operate a used car lot. The devices we use are by a company called Passtime. The type of operation we have is a buy-here-pay-here lot that attracts a lot customers with sub-prime credit, and we haven't had a single customer not buy a car because of the device. The fact is, if they won't agree to having the device on their car, they probably won't pay (keep in mind, these are sub-prime customers). We usually weed them about before they even come inside!
The device is quite easy to "hack" if you would even call it that. Its just soldered to the wiring harness and can VERY easily be bypassed. Most customers don't question it because "its a little computer thingy" and its "very complex".
Apart from all that, in the contract, the customer must sign about three pages of forms made up of about 15 signatures from both buyer and co-buyer agreeing to all the terms and conditions regarding the device. Again, our customers never have a problem signing their John Hancock on the line.
About the operation of the device: Currently, the device we use utilizes a "code" system where the customer pays their payment, we give them a 9-digit code from Passtime's website. The code is only good for however many days we set it, then we can set warning days where it will beep upon starting to remind them that their payment is due, and each code has atleast two emergency days that they can use by pressing 999-999-999.
Regardless, it'd be nice if Passtime would give me the freakin' code to generate the Passtime codes so I can integrate it into my software! They protect it quite well, thankfully!
This is only targeted at those with poor credit. For one thing you are right, that for people with good credit it's an unnecessary cost (good credit means, by definition, a person that generally repays debts on time and in full). However the bigger reason is that this pisses people off and if you have good credit, you have options. If a dealership wanted to do this you could simply go to your bank, get a loan form them with the car as colleratal and go buy the car straight cash from the dealer, in which case they'd have no right to install such a system.
It's an idea similar to a secured credit card. Most people have unsecured cards, meaning that the bank is wiling to loan you an amount of money up to the limit of your card. They trust (or perhaps hope in some cases) that you will pay them back. However for people with really bad credit, or with no credit, they often aren't willing to do this. After all, if you walk on them, they are screwed. So what you can do is get a secured card. You put a certian amount of money in an account, as much as you like. You then get a card with a limit of that amount. Should you fail to pay, they'll take the money in the account to pay it, nothing lost.
So same thing here, it's security for the lender that in the event they don't get paid, the car won't just run off to some other state or country and become hard to impossible to track down. True it can be bypassed, but that's not real likely.
This device secures their interest in the property, well within their rights.
Yes, their interest in your property. Not "the property". I suppose I would be perfectly within "my rights" to remove such device from my car. The worst thing I'd be doing is breaking a civil contract -- not any laws. Unless it phones home then I don't really see what they can do about it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Those liens are callable if you default, and since most car/land loans are secured with the property in question, it's the bank/dealer's right to seize their property if you are in default.
You are entirely correct -- but for the use of the word "their". It should have been "your".
It's also a little known fact that in virtually every state if they seize the property they have to make every attempt to sell it for maximum market value. Anything gained above the amount of money they are owed has to be turned over to the owner of the property. Of course with a car loan you are screwed because cars never gain value -- but if they seize your house and the market will pay twice what is owed on it then they have to send that excess cash to you.
Of course nobody knows this and being the nice industry that it is most people get screwed over anyway by the credit sharks.
You know, it's very easy to slam someone for not being able to pay their bills. But why don't you take a look at the credit industry sometime before sticking up for them. A lot of them are bloodsucking motherfuckers that pray on people.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Only on Slashdot could I find out about an article like this, about a device that only affects people who do NOT make their contracted car payment, and then find comment after comment after comment talking about how horrible this is. I guess its just terrible the way those bad old car lots expect people to actually follow their agreement and *pay* for their car.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
So in your world, what happens when someone defaults on a car loan? In mine, the lender works with the payee, but if they can't/won't make the payments, they seize the car to recover their interest in it, any proceeds beyond that will revert to you, but with most auto contracts, between depreciation and the non-pay penalties means you get zip when the bank settles up your part after the recovery.
The loan agreement more than likely has a "instant default" clause for tampering. They will still send a real repo man out to get the car
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I seem to be posting this a lot, but I have a buy-here, pay-here car lot and I have not lost a SINGLE customer because of installing starter interrupt devices! Zero! ZILCH! ABSOLUTELY NONE! Remember, the customers that must have these installed have sub-prime credit! If someone walked on my lot, wanted my '99 Mustang GT, and they had $3,000 down and a 600 beacon, THEY'RE GETTING THE CAR! If they request no device installed, FINE! It won't be installed!
It almost certainly would either attempt to phone home when it detected that you were tampering with it, or (smarter) would constantly send a heartbeat signal to the dealer that would be interrupted by your tampering, which would then tell them that you've turned it off.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Still not going to keep the individual that comes out to physically reposess the vehicle from getting shot through the head though.
Seriously. If a person has credit that bad, I'd rather not do business with him in the first place. Someone with nothing to lose is going to be a lot more likely to take extreme measures to keep what he has.
That being said, any scumbag who uses something like this in a Buy here Pay here scheme that winds up having his head used as wallpaper paste probaby got what he deserved.
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
Long time lurker here... I think I am qualified as an expert, having come from a family of car salesmen. I have been actively involved in the new and used car business for over 20 years. I currently work as internet sales manager at a medium sized Big 3 dealership. Like all other dealerships, we regularly run "come one, come all" types of sales. While these sales bring out several people with strong credit, it also drags in the absolute dregs of society. We make our living selling cars. Most of these scumbags are simply societal misfits. They are not people with "no credit". There are people with abysmal credit. We see Transunion scores under 500 on a regular basis. These people could not finance a pack of chewing gum without a 700+ score co-buyer. So where does that leave them? Why at the "b" lot "buy here-pay here" operation. I have a personal friend that is involved in this business. He is a small businessman with limited resources. He does not carry a large inventory, but the cars he does have are decent. He does his best to make sure that the cars he sells are in good running order, as he knows that if the car isn't running, the customer is not going to be paying. He charges exhorbitant interest rates, but he is the one taking all the risk. If the customer skips town with the car, he has the expense of trying to reclaim it. Most of his customers are pretty faithful in paying, but that is only because he is very selective about who he sells to. Why people think that profit is some kind of crime in the car business is beyond me. Nobody faults the factory worker building the car for pushing for bigger money and benefits. There is no union for salespeople in the car biz. Most dealers offer pretty poor benefit packages. This device is being used successfully by several dealers. They have invested in technology to protect their financial interests. How is this different than a tech guy investing in quality software to protect their property?
In the case of these buy here/sell here places, it is the dealership's car. If you lease a car, it is the dealership's car. If you go to a dealer, choose a car, and secure a loan to pay for the car, it is *your* car.
You can do whatever you'd like to your car, as long as you do not violate the loan terms contract governing the security interest in the car. Most of those stipulate insurance coverages and limits as one of those terms. It is still perfectly legal for me to cut the roof off the car, weld a cage onto it, jack up the suspension, and use it as a dune buggy. I might violate the terms of the civil contract with the financer, but that is different. The State has no say in the matter, becase they aren't involved in my financing. The only thing that matters is the terms of the finance contract.
As has been said umpteen times, a lien says that the financer may take ownership of your property if you violate the terms of the contract. You're using the car's title as security for the loan. The government can place a lien on your real estate if you fail to pay your taxes, but that doesn't mean they now magically own the land. It just means that they're stating that they may take ownership of it if you do not fulfill your legal obligation to them.
All that aside, if there are people that are willing to put up with these devices, then whatever. There's nothing illegal about them, nor should there be. When you buy a car from these places, it simply isn't your car. You didn't buy the car, you bought a contract that says that after you pay a certain amount, the dealer will transfer the title to you. Because of that (and as long as this contract doesn't state otherwise), the dealer can place any conditions they want, at any time they want, on your use of the car, since it is the dealerships property. I wouldn't accept these terms, but if someone desperate enough may, and obviously does.
You know, it's very easy to slam someone for not being able to pay their bills. But why don't you take a look at the credit industry sometime before sticking up for them. A lot of them are bloodsucking motherfuckers that pray on people.
Big time. They started coming down hard on these fly by night organizations in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area several years ago. These scumbag dealers would sell cars knowing full well that the customers would default on the loans, then repo the cars and put them back on the lot at the same price *that same day*. Some other fool would come along, buy the car, default, wash, repeat, rinse. Didn't matter if you only had one payment to go, and the state was able to show that this was a specific business strategy for them. Unfortunately, the people that buy from these sharks are those that can't get financing anywhere else, and thus have to deal with the ridiculous finance terms plus the fact that the cars are usually sold *way* in excess of book value.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Remember when your math teacher in Junior High said, "you will use this stuff everyday?" Well, for you and I he was right. We use those lessons every day of the year to decide whether or not we can afford a certain purchase, or whether or not the terms on a certain line of credit are worth accepting. The average person that goes into a "Buy Here Pay Here" car lot failed to comprehend the importance of basic algrebra, and they will pay for the lack all of their lives.
If these people had a lick of sense instead of agreeing to these terms they would go out and buy a much less expensive clunker automobile (my first car cost less than $200) and save their money until they could afford to put down enough money to get accepted on a traditional auto loan (or better yet simply buy a newer vehicle outright when they saved enough money).
This isn't any sane auto contract, for any sane person. This is for a person with terrible credit, Give them a credit card, might as well just book the repo man in advance. Why are they buying a new car? They lost the old one to one of those "Sane" Cash Advance car title loan stores. They bought their "Brand new name brand computer" from https://www.bluehippo.com/ for as low as 35.99 a week! And they check into cash® every pay check to pay off last week's check into cash®.
Dont worry folks, this really doesn't apply to us, (Barring you didn't just take advantage of the rapidly closing bankruptcy loopholes John Jay Kramer and Associates can find for you(TM) This device will not show up in our new cars anytime soon, See, cause we have Money, We make our payments on time, have good credit, and respectable companies Want our business, we don't have to beg for it like people who would take advantage of this would.
Sensitivity Disclaimer: Down on your luck geek? Downsized and its not your fault? Had payments that you thought you could make before you were fired? This isn't a rant in your direction, don't get offended. This is for the people who see credit as free cash and other such things.
Web Developers: Celebrate to our roots! Animated Gifs and Tiled Backgrounds, dont let our history die!
That's right. In the US at least, the bank never owns the house. The government does.. you get to pay a yearly rent on it. Fortunately the US government is a fairly lenient landlord, and will let you paint it and such. Many modifications (additions, etc.) will require a one time fee, similar to a security deposit only non-refundable, and may increase the rent as property value goes up.
Doesn't matter what legal language you put on it. Doesn't matter if you legally, technically own it according to the letter of a law. If something can be taken away from you for non-payment, you de-facto do not yet own it.
Anything with a property tax is non-owned. You are just renting the experience of owning it.
y definition, someone with bad credit has bad credit *because* they tried to screw a creditor by not making payments on time
That's a bit of a leap. I know a fair share of people (my own sad life story included) that have bad credit because of events beyond their control. Try medical bills for starters. Try unemployment. Try the death of a working spouse who didn't have enough life insurance. Take any number of scenarios that could result in falling behind on bills without purposefully trying to "screw" the creditors.
The result is that they pay huge interest rates on everything. Seems fair to me.
It seems fair on the surface until you think about the nasty circle that it creates. You can't deny that the industry is setup to screw people in many cases. Why the hell does a secured credit card (often used to rebuild credit) need a 24.99% APR? By definition a secured card represents absolutely no risk to the issuer. They charge those rates because nobody is stopping them.
the next thing to realize is that most of the people at the bottom of the pay scale remain very poor because they insist on buying things (on credit) that they cant afford
I would agree with that statement if you had phrased it as "some of the people" instead of "most of the people".
I personally know more than a few people who "bought" a $25,000 car on credit at 20% interest at the same time they were being evicted for not paying their rent. Why didn't they buy a $15,000 car, or even buy a used car?
And that means everybody is like that? Personally when I was having hard times I always made a point to pay my car insurance first (if I can't get to work and make money then everybody is screwed), my landlord second, my food and utilities third and everybody after that can take a number. Screwing your landlord while you drive around in a $25,000 car is deplorable. I just take exception to your statements that "most" people who are poor or who have bad credit are acting like this. Did you know that about 70% of bankruptcies are triggered by medical bills?
I personally make only 20k / year, in a city where 30k / year is considered to be the line between middle class and poor, but in two years I have saved enough money to buy two rental houses, and the home I live in. I bought a used suzuki (on which I splurged) for $9,000. I don't own a TV (I use a TV card I bought for $5 from a local computer salvage store). I don't have a "kick ass stereo" I don't have a sweet living room set. I don't have a car stereo, and I wear clothing bought off the rack at a sears end of season clearance sale. Most importantly, I didn't marry a woman who is so stupid that she believes that children are a welfare funded meal ticket. If you want to get ahead in life stop trying to look like you're already ahead and put your mind towards the task of getting there.
Yeah, I'm about in the same boat. I make about 26k / year in an area with an avg of 40k. I drive a 1991 car that I bought at a charity auction for $205. I live in a one bedroom apartment. I'm saving every dime of my excess income to build a safety cushion and I'm considering a second job. So what's your point? I still take issue with your statements about "most" people.
Now as for these devices, I think they are a great idea. I want these for my rental units. The door would refuse to open from the outside unless they deposit $20 / day into the lock box... It would save me about 2 evictions every year, and I'll bet I would get paid more reliably.
And I would refuse to rent from you if you had those devices. If you felt the need to deploy such devices on your apartments then that alone is going to scare me away (who the hell else are you renting to? do I really want to live next to them?). And like RIAA I also have a serious problem with any business that treats me like a criminal before I've done anything wrong.
But that's just me.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
fucking moron. yeah we all really believe that you are willing to go to jail or worse for killing a repo man. Most likely if you did anything at all it would be more big talk.. "I'm gonna sue you!", "Dont you know who I am!", "Get the fuck off my property".. etc etc.. but in the end you would still watch your vehicle get towed away.
No, but if I start the car up and drive it away there isn't a goddamn thing he can do about it. He can't pull me over. The repo man may be professionally intimidating but he isn't a peace officer. He has no arrest power over me. He can't force me to do anything.
Of course more likely then not they will repossess your car at 2AM and you won't realize it happened until the next day. I'm just pointing out the fact that a repossession is a civil matter -- they don't have any sort of special authority. In fact, if you had the vehicle in a locked garage then they are effectively fucked without getting a court order. They can't break into your home to repossess something just because they have a lien against it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Well yes, true. But what I'm talking about in principle is removing the kill-switch-box after finding out it disabled your ignition for non-payment. At this point, it could be argued in court with certainty you commited grand theft auto.
I don't think so. Grand theft auto is a criminal matter. Until they actually decide to repo the car it is still mine and I can do whatever the hell I want with it. What if that device broke and wouldn't let me start my car? What if I was only 30 days late and it wouldn't let me start my car? In most states they wouldn't be able to repo it until you were at least 90 days late.
Now, if you later filed bankruptcy and tried to get the debt related to that vehicle discharged (if they repo it and sell it for less then you owe then you are still on the hook for the rest) you might find that your actions could be used against you. But it still doesn't make it a criminal matter.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
You need to brush up on your secured credit law bucko. A car loan comes with a security interest in the car. The car belongs to the customer. In no way is failing to pay the loan back "theft," it is default on a loan or, at most, fraud if the person entered into the contract with scienter. It is no more theft than failing to pay one's credit card bill.
The holder of a security interest (the car lender, here) has the right to "self help" in the event of default to satisfy the debt. (He also has the right to proceeds if the owner sells the car to someone else.) This is a difference from "unsecured credit," the best example being a credit card. No matter how much money someone owes on a credit card, the repo man can't come to his house and take some stuff to settle the debt.
In other words, I would bet you five hundred dollars you could not find a single court case where someone was convicted of "theft" for failing to make his car payments. I'm glad you're a fan of the repo man, honorable work, blah blah blah, but like most slashdot posters you don't know much about the law.
With great power comes great fan noise.