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Lack of 'Mirror Neurons' Linked to Autism
FruFox writes "A recent study has pointed to a possible link between autism and lack of so-called 'mirror neurons' , either physically or functionally. This provides the first solid physical evidence to back up the theory that autism's root cause is a profound lack of empathy. This probably impacts the world of Asperger's Syndrome as well. Many Slashdot readers are undoubtedly familiar with the world of Asperger's / autism."
Is there a link between these 'mirror neurons' and schizophrenia? Schizophrenia and autism are very similar in symptoms and epidemiology. Indeed, many researchers I know (unofficially) call autism "juvenile schizophrenia."
After all, I am strangely colored.
If I recall correctly, mirror neurons are associated with imitation and self-visualization. Somehow, this meshes well with the idea of autistics lacking "higher level abstraction" abilities. Specifically, mirror neurons provide a means of abstracting the idea of self. Let me explain.
I've read that in some parts of the autistic brain, "layers" of neurons are connected directly to each other, such that every neuron in a particular layer is connected to every other neuron in the next layer. However, in normal brains, a third layer exists between pairs of layers. In this way, normal brains require fewer synaptic connections, but longer axonal pathways (i.e. a given signal takes longer to be processed, but may travel through internal layers which modify and abstract features from outer layers).
This property is theorized to give rise, in some autistics, to "idiot savant" abilities; such individuals often excel at a particular skill or set of skills (such as multiplying large numbers together very quickly). For example, one might be able to multiply 5 digit numbers together in a couple of seconds. However, because of the lack of inter-layers which allow for abstractions (and possibly understanding/comprehension of the processed information), the same person may have no concious concept of the numerical value of real world things.
(( (CRAYON) )) >
This provides the first solid physical evidence to back up the theory that autism's root cause is a profound lack of empathy.
Wouldn't lack of empathy be a symptom of autism rather than a cause? Or that since the lack of mirror neurons is the cause, it gets expressed as a lack of empathy?
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
Let's see:
Yup, that's me.
A Neurology journal article on the anatomy of Asperger's, as seen from fMRI scans
Another neurology article, on the anatomy of Autism, as seen from fMRI scans
The research at the Institute of Psychiatry, by Professor Declan Murphy is beginning to indicate that autism affects the frontal and mid-sections of the brain, whereas Aspergers appears to affect the frontal sections only. Nonetheless, other studies (not linked to here) have shown that those with asperger's have an elevated probability of having autistic children. In other words, there's good evidence they share mechanisms BUT there is also good evidence that autism outside of Asperger's involves additional mechanisms that are NOT present in Asperger's.
I asked the IoP about research on Asperger's and autism a while back, and they pointed me to the following lecture (which does not appear to be on the web anywhere):
Frith U. (2004) Emanuel Miller lecture: confusions and controversies about Asperger syndrome. Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry & Allied Disciplines. 45(4):672-86, 2004 May
I hope this information is useful, trivially interesting or even interestingly trivial, depending on perspective.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's at Cambridge University, so they have plenty of Austistic Spectrum test subjects (most of the students and staff, for example).
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Yes, that is my objection to it. The diagnostic criteria, even when correctly applied, are questionably overbroad.
Once you count in all the self-diagnoses, it's a mess. Kuro5hin did a poll and something like 78% of the respondants claimed to have Aspergers. Not scientific but take it for what it's worth.
One has to keep in mind the psychiatrist often has no way to run a test to see if you have something, they go solely on what you tell them your problem is. Sure they can observe your behavior as you meet with them, but if you seem a little quirky or socially awkward they aren't going to second guess your self-diagnosis.
It's the same with parents and kids, the psychiatrist isn't going to often second guess someone that spends at least 8 hours a day, every day, supervising their kids, based on a 1 hour session.
That's why I think nailing down biological causes to these disorders is especially important. That way the people with real disorders get recognized, and the attack on our subculture can end.
It's not wrong to be a geek. We are not sick. Don't buy into their lies.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
"It's not wrong to be a geek. We are not sick. Don't buy into their lies."
:)
Thank GOD! Finally someone said it.
It was bad enough back in the eighties, when I had to go through High School huddled in the hallway with my three friends (all of us were physics nerds) while popular-type assholes swung by trying to one-up each other, making fun of us.
And it was annoying when all of us engineering majors in college had to put up with shit all the time because business and liberal-arts majors treated us like we were some weird other species. I mean, god forbid we crack open the hood of our car and (gasp!) change a freakin' alternator for twenty bucks at the part shop instead of laying out two hundred to have a fat, sweaty, greasy guy do it for us (and make a mess of the wire connections! Don't these people have electrical tape???).
But, these days, every five minutes some psychologist schmuck is trying to play all phony-sympathetic with us, laying some story on us about how we're all "suffering" from some weirdo "syndrome" and we're all really "autistic" and so on.
HEY! SHRINKS OF THE WORLD! I'm a programmer! I make triple the national average salary, can fix, build, or break more different types of equipment than you know the names of, and I whupped your kid's honor-roll ass at Halo II last night! I'm just fine the way I am, and if you come over here trying to take my crazy away, I'm gonna give you an atomic wedgie, drag your ass in my unkempt bathroom, and give you a swirly for good measure! And I haven't cleaned my toilet in weeks! And I eat at Taco Bell regularly! Begone, go back to bothering the neurotics whose mothers make them dress funny!
Um... Heh heh. I guess this issue gets me a bit worked up.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
I agree that the diagnostic criteria leaves a lot to be desired as a method for identifying if you do or do not have Autism/Aspergers. Being able to reliably identify the condition with a biological marker would be good in getting children/adults the assistance needed to make the most of their abilities and minimize their difficulties. I don't understand the thought running through here that this activity is an "attack on our subculture". As a parent of 2 children with Autism and 1 child with Aspergers, I applaud the research efforts such as these as helping to clear away the "static" that is a distraction to my children and inhibit their ability to relate to me, their siblings and those around them. I don't see any competant researcher in this arena "attacking" anyone.
He is a nice guy - outgoing and cheerful, just like most people with Aspergers. If you talk to him long enough, he simply starts looping over and over about every 20 minutes on the same sequence of subjects. He's very smart -- he can list off the businesses that have occupied any given corner or strip mall (and he tends to as you drive around), but he can't find his way home unless it's the same way he drove there.
People hear that and think "I know somebody like that", or even "that's like me", but don't realize how profound the level of these symptoms are. He speaks about his dead cat in present tense because that's how he always has spoken about her. He literally cannot comprehend that somebody is lying to him. He threw a superbowl party with GI Joe tablecloths because that's how his parties were decorated when he was a little kid.
People (other than hypochondriacs) never forget where their keys are and then leap to conclude that they have a chronic and fatal disease like ALS. People seldom talk to themselves and then self-diagnose schizophrenia. Lately however, it seems like it has become very trendy in certain geek circle to decide you have Aspergers or a "light case" of Aspergers.
If they spent time with people living in facilities with legitimately diagnosed Aspergers, they might reconsider their self-diagnosis. You might reconsider it being an "attack on the intelligent" and more of a bizarre confusion regarding what the mental disorder entails.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I think you've summed up the problem well, what the diagnosis was intended for and what's it becoming applied to are two different things.
more of a bizarre confusion regarding what the mental disorder entails.
I agree it's a confusion, but to me it doesn't seem bizarre, I believe the diagnostic criteria are poorly written and overly broad, to the point where way too many people are getting diagnosed (the wikipedia article for aspergers cites numbers like 7 expected cases per 1000, yet diagnosis rates are shooting up, way up).
It's not just aspergers, but that one is close to my heart since my chosen lifestyle and my personality almost just fits into what they are calling diagnostic criteria.
Mental Disorders Strike Nearly Half of All Americans
Do you really think half of all americans are mentally ill? Discounting certain election-induced mass delusions, I seriously doubt it.
It's becoming a major industry to create disease where there is none, to make any nonconformity a disease. It's a dangerous cross between commercial interest in pushing designer prescription drugs, and government interest in supressing non-conformity, and removing personal responsibility. Removing responsibility removes freedom.
It also does a disservice to the truely mentally ill like your brother in law. It clouds the issue of what is and isn't a mental disorder. Him being lumped in with millions of kids with normal behavior problems, and thousands of nerdy adults that want an easy cop-out does not do him any good.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I have Aspergers. Things like "misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings" are often misattributed qualities of scale. Someone can be "literal", but still be a neurotypical.
My wife can ask me to do a simple task -- such as "Please put Nicole's shoes on" (she's our 3 year old daughter). If I don't stop, rewind the tape in my head and THINK -- I respond to what she SAID. Not what she meant. I'll say: "Her shoes wont fit me". It should be painfully obvious to an NT what my wife is asking -- to take my daughters shoes and have my daughter wear them. But not necessarily to someone with Asperger's. I had to LEARN the difference and it does NOT come naturally to me.
Here's the "twist". This "literal/implied meaning" problem with *ME* ONLY applies to auditory language. NOT to written language. In fact, much of the 'courtship' of my wife was done in writing (I can write some pretty romantic stuff, too... at least enough to get one hell of a foxy chick to marry a misfit like me -- heh).
Other symptoms can also be of various degrees, such as "stimming". My need to stim is very powerful. It manifests itself as constant foot or toe movement. Not really observable with my shoes on and not very socially distracting. I even do it in my sleep. It used to drive my wife crazy, but she got used to it.
Obsessions can be particularly debilitating. Mine are fairly benign (history -- early US history in particular but I have a fondness of early European history, too). I also have a few others, but as long as I can spend an hour or two a day pursuing them, I'm satisfied and I can function. If I don't, I have a PHYSICAL reaction. I can't think straight. I cant function and I start to babble about the subject to anyone (even myself) and I can be quite an insufferable bore to be around. Who the eff cares about a particular topic discussed between Adams and Jefferson in letters exchanged in the twilight of their lives? I mean, other than me?
But you are and the GP are right, many "self diagnosed" Asperger's are really NTs. It was once suggested to me that we're ALL "on the spectrum" to some degree or another and I can kind of see this. But if you put a bunch of professionally diagnosed AS with the self-diagnosed -- trust me... you'll see a difference.
Asperger's exists, but your sig is fine: it helps clarify that AS is not just geekiness.
I have a diagnosis for Aspergers which I got in the middle of a breakdown, and has been very useful in helping me to get the resources that I needed to get well. I am still prone to staying in the house for days on end, whereupon I get cabin fevour, although I can lie, and tell truth from fiction. My breakdown occurred because a therapist undermined me over a period of several years: over that time, I corrected what he was telling me, without realising the conclusions that he was drawing. I look at it now, and I am amazed: my therapist thought that I was a psycho because I told him that the golden rule doesn't work "because different people want different things", and because I valued freedom "but I'm not so much into equality"... My love of the subtle and the self-organising was taken for cunning and not caring...
Maybe Leo Strauss had a point with his concept of the Straussian text, which has an exoteric ("outward") meaning that wasn't necessarily the same as the meaning drawn by the careful thinker. I ignored the exoteric, and, like Nietzsche, enjoyed using terms against their usual emphasis. In Straussian terms, I was being irresponsible, and I paid for it with a major mental collapse.
Do I have Aspergers? Nowadays, having mostly pulled out of my breakdown, I barely suffer any social symptoms that I had. Certainly, there's still a trace, but prolongued analysis of many miscommunications, and the sequence of events that led to my breakdown have by and large prevented me from further major miscommunication as far as I can tell, and indeed it is common for Aspergans to aquire social skills (albiet late). I still have major problems with timeliness, and my ex- comes around once a week to help me to tidy my house, or else I wouldn't do it. It's not that I don't care: I love a tidy house; it's that I get trapped in routine and other activities...
I am nowhere near as incapable as the character described in the Grandparent post, but I definately have difficulties. I also have advantages: I studied maths at Cambridge, and although I failed through depression, I was seen as being very capable by my supervisor. So, corny and PC though it sounds, I do not consider AS to be a disease, but rather a case of cognitive specialisation.
Wikileaks, no DNS
I have a daughter who falls into this category... what you might not realize is that these traits apply ALL THE TIME and they are a bit more severe than you're probably giving credit for.
For example, "lack of appreciation of social cues" does not mean that you were oblivious to how turned off your date got as you quoted Monty Python nonstop. My daughter often has trouble telling whether someone is laughing or crying, and has NO ability to figure it out from the context or any surrounding behavior.
Similarly "repetative adherence to a narrow interest" sounds like a hobby or something you might like doing a little bit more than other people consider normal. That's not even close. My daughter will watch a movie over and over and over again so many times until she can pause it before every line, recite the line, and then listen to it play on the movie.
Much of this needs to be seen in action to appreciate the actual description of the symptoms. Keep in mind that if it seems to apply to a large group of people, then the behavior that it's trying to describe is more excessive than how you've understood it.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
An excellent point well made.
;-)
;-)
I have aspergers as does my 7 year old son and we couldn't survive day to day life without a lot of support from our loved ones which we don't always acknowledge due to our lack of empathy generally. If it's hard for someone with aspergers it's harder for those that support them and I wouldn't have noticed this without a hell of a lot of help.
The inability to spot a lie makes life difficult among people who would like to take advantage of me, luckily I have learned the hard way to avoid these people but it led me to live an almost friendless existance for many years until I discovered it was certain types of people that led to my unhappiness.
I have suffered with depression for years caused by my inability to understand other people. I don't believe I or my son have a problem but the majority of people who lie and accept they are being lied to on a daily basis should probably book themselves into a facility for some care
as for the getting lost unless your friend follows the same route both myself and my son are lucky in the fact that we can 'see' maps and know the topology of the surrounding area automatically. Unfortunatly this does make it even harder than normal when we are lost. It's impossible to describe the feelings I have when I don't 'know' where I am in terms I think you could understand this makes it impossible to sleep on journeys.
Like most people with aspergers I have things that I think should be done in a certain way and my son also has things he likes done in certain ways you can't imagine the clash that happens when these two ideas clash.
On the positive side I can talk to my son like an adult on some subjects (his maths is excellent) but as a negative he is very late at developing in some areas.
Certainly in the UK part of the diagnosis is that it 'has' to affect your day to day ability to live unaided.
geeks aren't generally aspies but aspies are often geeks
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