Slashdot Mirror
Cameras Online? How The Shysters Work
earlylate writes "How do certain photo and electronics dealers thrive despite widely-circulated warnings by unhappy customers? According to a new investigative website "many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run" and "go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management." Further, some comparison-shopping sites "are in effect marketing partners with their affiliates," the very dealers they rate. There's a contest based on the suspicious "flood of similar, glowing reviews some dealers receive," as well as links to several sources of information and advice for the careful online shopper."
Here are some interesting pictures of the storefronts
Front doors
You mean something like this?
The two I trust:
PriceWatch.com
ResellerRatings.com
They all researched the cameras they wanted, and they thought they had adequately investigated the dealers. They saw the full-page ads in major photo magazines, the professionally-designed websites, the high dealer ratings on prominent search-sites. They saw all the trappings of the modern online secure shopping site. They trusted that their credit card companies, the respected magazines, and even the states which are home to the merchants, would help ensure a good transaction. And, of course, the prices were hard to resist. Why were our friends ultimately disappointed?
We took a look at some of the factors and some of the businesses involved, and we offer the information we've found to all who are considering purchasing cameras, video equipment and electronics from the comfort of their living rooms and offices.
This website is a partial scorecard. We hope it will help readers understand who some of the better-known dealers are, what's behind the ads and websites, and how to find further information.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers. We think the whole photographic industry -- hobbyists, professionals, dealers and manufacturers -- is healthier when consumers have clear idea of how to research a transaction and whom they will be dealing with.
We've tried to make these pages accurate. All the information included is from public sources. If you know of any errors, please inform us and we will correct them at once. If you have further information you think we should be aware of, contact us. (Please -- no rumors or speculation; only confirmable facts.)
Our contact details are here.
WELL KNOWN DEALERS
We have examined some of the online dealers who specialize in cameras and electronics, looking behind the ads and websites to find out who they are and how they do business. We chose some of the most visible companies -- the ones with heavy national advertising and prominent ranking on internet search engines. Many of them have sprung up in the last few years, while some have been around online and in traditional stores for decades.
Judging from customer surveys, newsgroup discussions and published articles, some of them are held in high regard while others are despised.
There were some surprises. The biggest one is that many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run. This is no secret to followers of the many online photography and video forums, but we believe the intertwining is unsuspected by most consumers. On this site we've grouped many of the dealers into "families" to clarify their identities. They form a truly tangled web, with many overlapping corporate connections, addresses and telephones.
Another surprise was that some dealers act mainly as brokers, with little or no inventory of their own and no "real stores." In our opinion this should not disqualify a business from consideration, but it does contribute to frequent misunderstandings about what is "in stock".
The biggest obstacle to any research is that some dealers go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management. Sadly, this disguising seems to be the norm for many newer, web-only merchants.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers.
We have included the names of individuals where we could find them, so that consumers know whom to contact with compliments or questions or complaints about a specific transaction.
We believe that a businessperson who is proud of the way his or her business is conducted will be proud to be publicly associated with it.
Some of our information may be out of date, as some companies may change location, telephone numbers or personnel. We welcome updates or corrections via email here.
Sources Cited Much of the information on these pages is attributed to these sources:
Don't anthropomorphize computers: they hate that.
I've been using Citibank/ATT Universal Card for online purchase. You can download an application that will let you generate a unique card number for each purchase. You can also limit the amount and set the expiration date.
After the purchase you can modify the amount or date and even cancel the number.
It won't stop you from making a dumb purchase but it will prevent excessive charges and unauthorized addtional charges to your credit card.
I, and my company, buy plenty from B&H and Adorama. Also had good experiences with K&M.
It's like any other major purchase... do your homework. Look for stores with established brick & mortar business and reputation. Don't be lured by too-good-to-be-true deals (they really are). Ask around with people who are in the know (there are plenty of photography enthusiast websites out there).
Yes, there are a lot of shady people running shady ops in shady neighborhoods in the NY area. But that doesn't mean there aren't reputable shops as well.
Caveat emptor.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
There are a few fine NY stores: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ http://www.adorama.com/ http://www.jandr.com/ In particular, B&H tends to carry everything photo related. Adorama carries almost as much as B&H. I've seen people happy with J&R, and I think 17th Street Photo (but I'm not sure of the last one), but they don't tend to have the depth B&H and Adorama has. So if you need say an Olympus 35-100mm f/2 lens, they will carry it, but you will get the glazed eye look if you ask for it at Best Buy. My one beef with B&H is they don't want to ship to maildrop places like The UPS store (I've had problems with delivery to the house, and prefer to get things delivered to the UPS store where somebody will sign for it, and I can pick it up at my leisure). So I tend to order from Adorama more often. Note that the price on these stores tends to be a fair price, but it isn't a 'deal' that the scam sites pretend to have.
...the same rules apply now that applied 35 years ago when I started buying photo equipment. Most are places that will screw you one way or another. Some are downright crooks. And there are a few gems that stay in business year after year, garnering more and more loyal customers even though their prices aren't rock bottom.
Personally, I use BHPhotoVideo.com for darn near everything photographic. Some things, like flash brackets, are personal taste problems. You just gotta touch and feel before buying. But for everything else, B&H is either the best or so close I can't tell the difference. They're businesslike (even brusque, sometimes) on the phone but they're also professional and reliable. The number of similarly high-quality online dealers in this market segment can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Actually, you only need two - B&H and Adorama. There are a few specialty dealers who are good for other things and if you need what they sell, they're wonderful. But for the full line of general photo gear available online, it's B&H and Adorama.
The best guidance I know of for buying a camera or related equipment in the U.S. is at photo.net.
unscrupulous lawyer 1843, U.S. slang, probably altered from Ger. Scheisser "incompetent worthless person," from Scheisse "shit," from O.H.G. skizzan "to defecate" (see shit).
shyster--'shIs-t Etymology: probably from German Scheisser, literally, defecator
: one who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics : PETTIFOGGER
You're not helping anyone. You make people with a legitimate beef look petty and you present people with no bad intentions at all as anti-semitic (or specifically anti-Jewish, as there are a lot more semitic people than just Jews).
Now, go into a closet and say "niggardly" a hundred times.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
resellerratings.com is generally quite good and the results can be trusted. Of course, one should browse to be certain a particular store wasn't recently flooded with fake positive reviews.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
I just buy from B&H Photo or Adorama. They've been around for years and their prices are as low as you'll usually find. I've never had any problems ordering or returning merchandise and they don't pressure you.
http://www.bhphoto.com/
http://www.adorama.com/
The markups on electronics are very slim. If someone is selling you an electronic product for hundreds below everyone else you're being ripped off.
In all likelihood it got dragged into the U.S. via Yiddish, hence the Semitic connection. Calling a Jewish lawyer a shyster is probably rather tasteless.
This is not my sandwich.
I stopped trusting Consumer Reports when they dinged some really nice mountain bikes for having front brakes that are "too powerful".
If you can't lock up both wheels on dry pavement, your brakes are set up wrong. It's wise to not do that, but on a bicycle you are the ABS.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
This is _exactly_ my mentality lately.
Those are the only two stores I have ordered off of in the past year... and I've ordered thousands of dollars worth of things for my house (just got married)...
Trying to get the extra $5 off of something by using some shady site just isn't worth it anymore. Newegg and Amazon are always within 1% of the bottom of the barrel sites and I don't even have to think twice about ordering from them (actually... my credit card is just saved at both.... so I can order at will).
A little piece of mind is worth a lot!
Friedmud
1. I submitted this site because thousands of camera buyers are victimized every year. Slashdot members, being more web-savvy than average, may be more aware and thus less susceptible. And less surprised at the site's information.
2. The word "shyster" was nowhere in my submission.
3. Many members send in links to promote commercial sites. The site I submitted is more or less a public service.
4. DANGEROUS GROUND alert! Perhaps slashdot should examine whether the shopping comparison site it is allied with is one of those that allows itself to be used by the villains we've been discussing. (Look up your favorite digital camera, and see what dealers show up near the top of the list with clusters of rave reviews.)