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Java Is So 90s
An anonymous reader writes "Some of you may recall last year's Java vs. LAMP Slashdot
flamewar. The fight has now "brewed" (couldn't resist) into the mainstream press at
BusinessWeek." From the article: "Yared says developers far and wide are creating a new generation of Internet-based applications with LAMP and related technologies rather than with Java. Can it possibly be that Java -- once the hippest of hip software -- has become a legacy technology, as old and out of style as IBM's (IBM) mainframe computers and SAP's corporate applications? Mounting evidence points to yes. Reports by Evans Data Corp., which does annual surveys of the activities of software developers, show Java use is slipping as LAMP and Microsoft's .NET technology gain traction."
Can someone explain to me how .NET is so fundamentally different from Java that it could escape Java's fate?
.NET isn't fundamentally different than Java, it has several big differences.
.NET is fairly easy and straight forward. This is important for adoption considering the huge amount of legacy code that often needs to be interop'd with.
.NET (Code Access Security) is arguably more refined and capable than the model built into Java. This doesn't really affect the current generation of applications, but for the v2.0 generation it will be very important due to ClickOnce deployment.
.NET's language feature set.
.NET and Java are free, the application servers they run on are not. For ASP.NET, IIS is the application server. For Java/J2EE, it could be Web Sphere or a variety of others. In pretty much every case a Windows license will be a lot cheaper than the license for the J2EE app server... especially Web Sphere.
.NET (C# really) just a Java rip-off?
.NET is a step toward Windows having a 100% managed API... something that's good for everybody. 10 years from now it will be rare to see an unmanaged application on Windows, aside from some niche areas. Java could never have done that because Sun wasn't in the position Microsoft is in.
Well, I'm not sure what Java's fate is, but while
As far as the CLR vs the Java runtime goes, Java byte code is fairly specific to java. It's possible to create non-Java languages that target the byte code, but it's not particularly practical. The CLR, on the other hand, was designed from the start with the idea of multiple language support.
It may not seem like a big deal to some, but being able to write more or less equally capable code in VB.NET, C#, J#, C++, Python, or a long list of other languages really does increase adoption.
The CLR affords far better platform specific integration than Java. JNI is complicated and horrible. COM Interop and API invocation in
The security framework built into
The CLR has support better support for a variety of programming constucts, such as generics, than Java does... or, in some cases did but the latest and greatest java releases have done a pretty good job and matching
While both
As far as language comparison goes, it's not really all that useful since the CLR supports pretty much everything you could think of, including a nearly 1 to 1 copy of Java. (J#). But if we must, here is a great, although some what dated, comparison of Java and C#.
Isn't
Not really. It's an evolutionary step. They certainly looked at Java, but they looked at everything. Managed runtimes were not invented by Sun. They've been around for 30 years. Microsoft creating
I forgot to post the language comparison between C# and Java. Sorry.
I've been watching the local So. California programming job market for a while. And as of earlier this year, I started keeping track of the number of jobs available for specific programming languages. Throughout the past 9 months, Java has owned the market on number of available programming job.
Here's the spreadsheet that I put together. It's in no way scientific, but it is a good indicator that Java, C++, and Oracle own the programming jobs market.
http://www.timothytrimble.info/ForSlashDot.htm
If you don't believe me, then do the stats yourself. Go to HotJobs, Monster, Dice, CareerBuilder and find out for yourself. The stats don't lie!
Timothy Trimble The ART of Software Development
TheTiminator
I don't see why it has to be a black or white issue. While websites can certainly be developed using only one or the other, it doesn't have to be that way. And I don't think it should be portrayed that way.
I'll use http://www.wheeloyum.com/ as an example. The web site is 100% LAMP. The app (client, applet, and server) is 100% Java. They both do well for their job. They even communicate with each other. Obviously they have their own strengths and weaknesses, especially relative to each other.
As with most other tasks, the right tool for the job is key.
On a computer or under a hood.
- JBoss
- Jonas
- Geronimo
- Tomcat (web tier only)
- Jetty (web tier only)
That are completely free of charge to both develop and deploy for production use. Support is also available if you'd like-- both free via the web and for-pay for each of these.Many of your points may be correct, but a price comparison is not necessarily one of them.
rob.
I work on a Java app that processes over 25 million transactions a week for a large financial institution.
This app used to run on OS/390 but we moved it to Solaris and the only compatibility problem we found had nothing to do with Java but SQL language differences going from DB/2 to Oracle. Now we do all of our development on Windows and our production runs on Solaris using the code we compiled and packaged on Windows.
Now that might not be "every platform" but I think you'll agree that the three platforms I mentioned are about as different as you can get. Especially OS/390 on which none of the other languages mentioned in this discussion will even run.
Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
(off-mic:) Isn't Perl a fable, these days?
Not sure what you mean here. Perl doesn't enjoy the "hip" factor that Python and Ruby have. But Perl has an overwhelmingly larger community than either of those two languages.
I like both Python and Ruby, and think they are better-designed languages. But Perl has a huge advantage over these other languages: CPAN. You can be more productive in Perl because 80% of your code is written for you, ready for the taking. Visit http://search.cpan.org/ to see just how much stuff is there. But here is what the Python folks don't get. CPAN is much more than a repository. It's an automated distribution system. On any Perl system, type, for example, "cpan Spreadsheet::ParseExcel" and voila, you've got a class that can read binary Excel files. Any module you install may have other CPAN dependencies, which are installed automatically. These modules have a test suite and won't install unless they pass the tests. You can also, via CPAN, view the test results on many different platforms, see module ratings, the automatically extracted docs, discussions, the bug tracker entries for the module, etc. Because this is all standardized and centralized, you can write a module that depends on other modules without having to worry about inconveniencing your users--everything will install for them automatically. So the barrier to code reuse is very low, and people build modules by subclassing or otherwise extending and combining the functionality of other modules, simply writing the glue code. In other words, one of the basic tenets of the OO concept, encapsulation and code reuse, is being very elegantly played out in a place you wouldn't expect.
Ruby is getting a good start at emulating some of the CPAN functionality with their RubyGems. Python doesn't have anything like this yet. I have no doubt they will someday, and there's been brought up many times on the Python groups, and usually gets knee-jerk reactions that don't show an understanding of what CPAN has to offer. The vaults of parnassus, etc are certainly not even close to the same thing.
So, I am currently more productive with Perl, and it is certainly not because of the language or syntax itself--its despite it. I just find myself writing a lot less code and getting more accomplished. I look forward to being able to do the same in Ruby or Python someday.
bp
have to agree with Mr. Decaff there. Garbage collection has gotten more advanced using things such as incremental GC. Also, specialized VMs such as from bea (look for JRockit) use advanced techniques such as multiple GCs.
Also the article mentions:
For one, many of the now-large companies built from the ground up to operate on the Internet don't make Java a major piece of their tech strategy. Those include Google (GOOG) and Yahoo! (YHOO).
In this article, Li Moore (software engineer at Google) says: "Google makes extensive use of the Java platform. Large parts of popular Google products are written in Java. We also use Java in many internal systems and products under development." So, this would seem to be entirely untrue in Google. I wish people would do a bit of research, instead of speculate/lie (which are, of course, easier to do).
Finally, I notice that the author of the article asks Peter Yared and Marc Andreessen their opinion. What sort of answer would one expect from the CEO and chairman (respectively) of competing technology companies? Naturally, they would champion their own technology and bash a competitor. I certainly would if I were in their shoes!