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U.S. Engineers Undercounted
mcho writes "Red Herring reports that 'The United States graduates far more engineers annually than typically reported in the press, a study said Monday, while the number of engineering graduates in India and China, long considered threats to the U.S.' status as a technological superpower, may be overstated ... the data implies that per every 1 million citizens, the United States is producing more technology specialists than China and India.' Are U.S. Engineers undercounted?" We've reported on the trend of U.S. students leaving the field previously.
A number of broadcast engineers I work with did not have an engineering college education, and just learned their way up from camera operator to master control operator to station chief engineer, etc. Yet these people are internationally known experts in fields like digital television (MPEG-2 transport streams, PSIP, 8VSB modulation, and such). Some didn't even graduate from college! While the top folks might be counted as IEEE or SMPTE members, I'm sure many fall through the cracks.
I don't see how telling someone that he or she's got three times the expected competition is supposed to be an incentive or an inspiration.
I've never understood this "number counting" either. Who cares how many people of X profession we have? As long as the government doesn't over-regulate the production of a profession (as is evident with doctors), there will be enough people to do the job.
It is important for young people to know how much profession X pays, and what the unemployment rate is. For example, electrical engineering seems to have been going through a time of less employment recently (probably brought on by increasing ease of automated design of digital circuits, use of FPGAs and programmable DSP chips, killing the analog design field).
I think every high school student should have to designate a desired career, and then do some role-playing based on their likely financial outcomes. "You want to be an actor. Roll a die. Only 1% of actors can live on acting, you rolled a 23, so now you are a waiter barely making the poverty line, growing older and sadder every day..."
This is my little anecdotal story.
Having 2 engineering roomates, I was friends with a qute few engineers in college. We all graduated around 1997, give or take a year or two.
Out of 20 that I'm still in contact with, I'd say that 6 are still engineers today. Some have moved up to management or higher and, by their own admission, don't do any engineering work. The rest have moved on to other jobs completely.
Per capita:
USA: 725 per million
India: 199 per million
China: 493 per million
In other words: fun with statistics!
Isn't it just like saying that US has fewer farmers than India or China? True, but who cares if they can supply all the food we need.
built out? I know it's pulling at obvious strings, but does New Orleans mean anything to you? Built-out == old and crumbling in a great many cases. how about today's apartment building collapse in new jersey? civil engineers are needed in droves to keep people alive (that's totally conjecture, but you know what i mean)
my housemate, for example, is a CE who's field is earthquake engineering... here in CA that's a pretty important field! and as for chemical engineers? i don't know about you, but i'm not going to buy a car until it runs on something other than petrolium products. our future as a society is entirely in the hands of next year's civil, mechanical, and engineering graduates
So high, in fact, that you can almost tell the difference between then and than.
I graduated in six years from a public university, and it was all my fault. I actually knew a guy who graduated with CprE and EE in three years, but he was taking 19 or 20 hours a semester the whole time. He did most of his sleeping on the weekend.
Jesus saves and takes half damage.
I wish it was as simple as being undercounted or underpaid or even unwanted. I think the biggest reason is engineers are inventors. In china and India the only thing holding you back is enough money to put it on the market. If someone in the US invents something they have to worry about getting sued for patent infringement.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
You're right. Without taxes, we wouldn't have such wonderful things as:
* Welfare, for people who don't feel like workin'
* Social Security, for people who don't feel like savin' for retirement
* Pork projects, for politicians who don't feel like campaignin'
* A war in the middle east, for presidents who don't feel like diplomatin'
* FEMA relief debit cards, for people who didn't feel like evacuatin'
The list goes on. I'm not saying that taxes should be abolished, but if we had some sensible spending, we'd be paying a lot less in taxes.
I am a CS major. I see lots of articles about engineers or programmers and the lack of jobs, decreasing salaries, flooded markets, outsourcing, and foreign labor. None of this has ever bothered me though. I'm not a CS major because of the job or the money. I have a love for computers and programming. I do this because it's what my brain's designed to do.
Because I know I'm good at programming, I'm confident I'll find a job. It doesn't matter if I'm getting $80K or $30K. The only thing that matters is that I'm spending my life doing something I enjoy doing.
When I was working in Saudi Arabia in the 1980's, I came across two types of workers that were called Engineers but they would not be considered to be engineers in the US. One group was called "Electrical Engineers" (nationality unknown, they were Muslims and looked Asian) which were doing (sloppy) electrician type work. The other group that I came across were called "Mechanical Engineers" which were Pakistani and I believe that in the US they would be considered to be very good diesel mechanics.
I know about a dozen engineers, spanning tracks from computer, to electrical, to mechanical, and even some civil engineers. Noe of them had any problem finding a job out of college. If you/he is really worried about finding a job and getting job security, look for openings in small firms. As long as the company is financially stable, once you get a job, as long as you don't do something to jeprodize it, you'll be there until you quit or retire. It doesn't matter if the engineers in your specialty are a dime a dozen, get in with a small company and you'll never have to worry about getting "traded in for a better model" Other advantages of a small firm are greater flexability, and the knowledge that your work actually makes a difference in the fate of the company. One friend adjusted his shift to come in and leave an hour earlier to avoid traffic; all he had to do was tell his boss he was going to do so. Meanwhile, if he has an idea for a new product, or a more efficient proccess, the company will actually care.
Free MacMini
"C'mon, total taxes can exceed over 50%, the govt prints up and loans money like it's doomsday ... and you can't guess what an economic freedom is?"
Nice straw man. I'm asking you to define 'economic freedoms' because your OP makes no sense; maybe your definition could help shed some light on it. Are you saying that an economic freedom is just not having to pay taxes?
You make these stupid sweeping statements that have no basis in fact, and expect everyone to guess what you're saying? I see, if you can't define the terms, there's no way of disputing your garbage statements.
Government is part of the market. Don't forget that. Economically, it just represents the collective wants and produce of part of the population. The need for superhighways (which, by the way, were heavily lobbied for by the auto industry) was met by government, simply because that's how a significant part of the market established how to do things like massive infrastructure building.
"Also, I don't recall saying that women shouldn't work, or people shouldn't be educated. - C'mon, you know better than that too."
No, you said that dual incomes and education requirements for high incomes were caused by "[government] taking away economic freedoms," which is total BS. You ignore the real causes, which have nothing to do with taxes. I was pointing out the real causes, which were social modernization and the market. Don't throw up the straw man again, my points were to dispute what you say caused specific results in today's job/wage environment.
"Look, the simple fact is that they are pushing these things to make up for lost freedoms. I'm calling bullshit, respect our freedoms first and let the rest follow on it's own."
What are 'they' pushing? Give me specifics, not only of what they are pushing, but how they are pushing it, and what that has to do with 'freedoms' that are casuing it.
What lost freedoms? Give me specifics, or are you just railing against taxes?
You seem to connect a lot of things that aren't connected, to attribute causation where there is none, to make general sweeping statements that are devoid of meaning.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Industry trade groups periodically whine about shortages of engineers, scientists and programmers. I graduated from engineering school 25 years ago and every few years they trot out the same old dog-earred dire projections. And yet, those of us who work as engineers, programmers and scientists never see these shortages materialize. Their magazine articles are plants used by their lobbyists to justify the need for increases in work visa quotas to the politicians they court.
The majority of those who graduate from engineering schools do very little or no actual engineering work. That's because there ain't enough engineering work to go around. It's been like that since I got out of school and older engineers told me that was their experience as well. Engineering schools seem to still be fighting the cold war. The old timers told me engineering schools went into high gear after the Russians launched Sputnik and only now are enrollments beginning to decline. Only after a 5+ year tight engineering job market are some of the prospective engineering students reevaluating their choice.
It's been a real challenge to stay employed in technically stimulating work. Somehow I've done it but my circumstances have been better than those of many engineers burdened with more intense family obligations. I've worked hard and I've been lucky. I'll stick with it because I'm pushing 50 and it's the best option I have. But through no fault of my own, I may be forced out of technical work before I reach 65. If and when that happens, I will no longer be counted as an unemployed engineer in the statistics should I accept a job doing something else. Instead, I will be counted as an employed hardware store stock clerk or whatever. One more engineer will have disappeared into the employment statistics to be counted no more and the industry trade groups will continue to whine about shortages.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
the chinese can graduate an order of magnitude less engineers per citizen than the usa and still bury the usa in engineers
mental exercise: if we both have one engineer per one thousand citizens...
(1.3 billion / 1000) > 4 * (300 million / 1000)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it