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Where Do All of the Old Programmers Go?
full-of-beans asks: "I work as a software developer for a large UK based international organization. Most of my colleagues that program are under 40 years old. Those that are over 40 tend to be in either Management or IT Support! I was wondering were do all the old programmers go? They can't all end up in management. I know we don't get paid enough to take early retirement. Is there some other career that tends to attract 40+ year old programmers, if so I'd like to know, because I'm not that far of 40 myself!"
... or possibly, there just aren't that many programmers over 40. Most educations aimed at programming started approximately 15-20 years ago or less. If you were programming before that, it wasn't very likely that you had been educated for programming, but for something else...
I have a really elegant proof for Fermat's last theorem. If this sig was only a bit longer...
preferably India Institute of Technology, where they train the next generation of yes men.
Agreed with everything except that last clause there. Do you really know what you are talking about or are you just randomly talkin' out your ass? Whether you are a 'yes man' or not, is completely based on your own personality and not where you go to college. I think what you meant to say is that 'preferably IIT, which has typically churned out excellent graduates' (note: I am at UCB not IIT, so this is by no means a biased statement).
I can't speak for all old coders, but I got kind of tired of coding just for the sake of coding. You can only do an implementation of a queue so many times before you ask yourself why you're writing it. I started a company with another guy, and we are a solution provider. Part of my time is spent with customers, and part of it coding. I much prefer this way of doing things because I can produce better results and my customers get a better product. Maybe all the old coders move on to smaller companies where they can be closer to the end user.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
Agreed with everything except that last clause there. Do you really know what you are talking about or are you just randomly talkin' out your ass? Whether you are a 'yes man' or not, is completely based on your own personality and not where you go to college. I think what you meant to say is that 'preferably IIT, which has typically churned out excellent graduates' (note: I am at UCB not IIT, so this is by no means a biased statement).
As a 30-something programmer who went to a good American school, it's something I've noticed in the newest generation of H-1bs hired from India. Most of them are from IIT, and most of them know the language that they were hired to work in- but NONE know when to tell managment off when they need telling off. Managment likes this, and this is the reason I got laid off, moved to contracting for a state agency, and am in the process of interviewing for a permanent position with the same agency. It's more a function of age than where you graduate from I think- though there does seem to be something in the Eastern cultures that lends itself to working on teams and not rocking the boat.
At any rate, it seems obvious that private industry has no place for an old curmudgeon like me- which is why I'm headed for the public sector.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
As you get older, your brain changes configuration. You don't want/can't learn as fast, or don't care about the details anymore.
Actually, as you get older you realize that school habits are not applicable to the real world. Jobs are not like a quiz, you shouldn't be pulling details from memory, that's why we have reference manuals. Do I need to memorize the the run-time complexity of 10 sorting algorithms? No, what a waste, I merely need to have Knuth Vol 3 Sorting and Searching with a post-it note on the page with side-by-side comparisons of various sorting alogorithms, their run-tme complexity giving various types of data, info on optimal and degenerate data, etc.
Learning is not about memorizing lots of trivia. It is about filtering important info from the huge volume of crap and trivia. Learning was once described to me as the *selective* loss of information. You have to think about that for a second. We're bombarded with info, overwhelmed with it, we have to discard some of it. The better strategy is to discard info on a selective basis, the trivia, rather than discard info randomly. What some consider "not caring" is what others would consider "being selective".
He also taught us incredible lessons. In 8 hours a day, 40 a week, he was able to get all his work done. And he did finally hit it big, and 2 years ago bought his dream house on the beach. As a spot of bad luck that beach was in Gulfport MS, so he'll have to rebuild, but that's not really the point.
The best lesson he taught us was "embrace new technology -- because that's what your job really is." As a result he embraced Windows when it came out, Java, Open Source, XP, and was incredibly relevant, even at the the ripe age of 55. Of course he embraced some things that did not become important. He became a Notes developer. He spent a month becoming an expert on XML, and I know it never really became useful for him. What he knew, and taught us -- there is no point in this profession where you can stop learning. For some people, when they realize that, they decide they want to move to management, where learning actualy hinders your career.
The reason you don't see many old developers is because they can't/won't learn new tricks. All you guys out there who won't learn Ruby? You're days are numbered -- not because Ruby IS the next great thing -- but because it MIGHT be. As a technologist, if you want to keep working with technology, you have to embrace the fact that technology changes.
My last comment is thanks Leo! I know you'll see this, and I just wanted to let you know about the debt that we all owe you, and hope that some day I can pass on the lessons you taught to me to other young developers.
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm
I am sorry to hear this. I am from IIT and I am working in USA (not on H1B but with a Green Card). What you dont get is that the US Dollar is 45 Indian Rupees. If an Indian with an H1B visa works here, it is not for the life in USA, it is for the money which he gets in USA which gets converted to 45 times that of Indian money. Agreed some inflation, and standard of living has to be accounted for, but even then it is a large amount of money for that Indian on an H1B visa. And if this guy starts "telling off" his managers, he will be sent back to India, and another "yes man" will be brought in. This guy might have family that he needs to support etc. , so you cannot say that all IIT graduates are "yes men". In fact most of them are far from it. It is the circumstances that make a man a "yes man".
I on the other hand do speak my mind with my boss, because I have no fear of getting fired and being sent back to India, because I live here and since I have a green card I can apply for another job in the worst case scenario.
Then make one. Find someone who has a problem and propose a solution. Update your skills. Go make something happen. When I moved to Seattle in 1992, I had no job and things weren't good for VAX programmers. While I was looking for work, I learned new skills on my own and turned those skills into something very successful. I think that one problem with today's programmers is that they believe that opportunities will just jump in their lap. I hate to tell you this, but those days are long gone. But if you row into lake in your boat and fish don't jump in, do you stop fishing? If you fish and don't catch anything, don't you buy better tackle?
Oh I did that too- but a side job doesn't pay the bills, though it is a great way to keep the skills sharp. The fact of the matter is, the skills of a coder are very much oversupplied these days- most of the paying jobs are in Microsoft land or Java land, so those are the skills you need- but those are ALSO the skills that 50,000 new IIT graduates get EVERY SINGLE YEAR- and they don't have a family to feed or a mortgage to pay, and they will give their right arm to work in America, instead of giving managment a fight over deadlines and things that can't be accomplished.
It's more like coders are the fish- and for every line of employment, every opportunity in the private sector, there are several hundred fish going for the line, and twenty or thirty eating the bait (getting an interview). Contrast that with public service, where they must hire a citizen, and there are usually only 30-40 applicants for a job, and the permanent position I just interviewed for yesterday had only 4 people interviewed.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I didn't really think it was a function of where one graduated. But thanks for correcting me that it's more a problem of the indentured servitude (employer purchased) visas as opposed to culture.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
And if this guy starts "telling off" his managers, he will be sent back to India, and another "yes man" will be brought in.
Can you tell me how that doesn't validate his point?
You're saying that because you don't fear being deported (like a natural born citizen would), that you have no problem telling your boss off, but that those from India need to be "Yes Men" to stay in the country. Regardless of whether they are all 'Yes Men' by nature, what you're saying is: they have to be to have the jobs here. Thus they ARE willing to bend over for the company and thus ARE more attractive to the company as employees.
I am an Indian and I don't agree with the GP's broad assertion that Indians are "Yes" men when they land in the US. I worked and lived in San Jose. I decided to come back to India after my contract ended even though my employer granted me full-time employment. One of the reasons I was offerred this employment is because I am not a "Yes" man.
The assumption that people will throw you out on the street if you don't keep sucking up to the management is false in most places; any management worth its salt expects to hear the truth from the floor and once the management gets around to the understanding that the people on the floor are lying to them and basically kissing butt, they will rapidly lose any respect for the opinions of these minions. Even the management expects to hear the truth - believe it or not.