Dell XPS 'Gaming' PC Review

cojsl writes "[H]ard|OCP has an entertaining review of a Dell XPS 400 'Gaming PC'." From the article: "If the Dimension XPS400 is any indication, Dell considers computer gamers a joke. Harsh, yes. But we think it's accurate. The system itself is a decent gaming platform and the hardware was well built. It was put together decently with parts that can pull the weight required to play today's graphically intensive games. But we couldn't even install one of the most popular games on the market, Sims 2, and trying to play other popular games would lock up the system and gaming sessions, when they would run, would get interrupted. The pre-installed programs that Dell chose to include on its computer were almost certainly the cause of all these problems, and unloading these programs from the boot-up routine fixed the problems."

Comments

Sounds like all of the systems they make!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should their gaming PC's work any better than their business PC's?

Suprise Suprise

[Quintessant]

What? Are you expecting anything different folks. It is a dell, after all.

Re:Suprise Suprise

[sgant]

This is one of the reasons why I build my own machines.

People here and there write that "oh, you're a dinosaur, building your own machines...who has time for that? It's 2005, buy a system from Dell or Gateway and it will be cheaper".

WRONG. Everyone that writes and says their time is too valuable to build a machine (which let's face it, it takes only a couple of hours to assemble the parts) doesn't look at playing a game as wasting their valuable time. But how much time is lost trying to unload all the CRAP that Dell/Gateway/Compaq or whatever loads into the machine because they have special deals with all these companies? They even give you the system disk that is suppose to have Windows on it so you can reload it, yet even THAT loads on all the crap again and you're right back where you started.

It's BS. I'd rather just spend the money to buy Windows and load it and that's it. Then I load what I want on it. My sister-in-law just bought a Dell laptop and I looked at her processes and she had 28 user processes running on her machine! And she was wondering why it was running slow even though it was brand new. Know how many user processes I have running on this machine? 4....just 4.

I'll build my own computers thank you.

The trouble with OEM discs and copy protection

[ReformedExCon]

I think Dell makes a good case here for why vendors should be forced to package clean OS discs and why Microsoft is helping these fools cause headaches by making it difficult to reinstall the OS. The first thing that should happen with these machines is that the existing installation ought to be wiped and replaced with an absolutely clean version of the OS, no software, just the OS. Critical updates ought to be packaged on discs as well.

But instead you get "backup CDs" (not even provided in the case of this Dell!) which bring you back to the OEM's idea of a starting point. That's probably fine for most desktops, but on laptops you never know which uninstall is about to break the touchpad or cause the monitor to stop working.

I keep Win2K around, with all its slow bootup times and lousy hardware support, just because I am able to reinstall when I need to. And, it's just so good that I hardly ever need to. XP? It may be technically better, but unless I have the ability to reinstall it on my own machines at my whim, it's useless.

Re:The trouble with OEM discs and copy protection

[Aglassis]

You hit an important point. The first thing I did when I got my IBM laptop a few years back was to backup the install files and wipe the system. IBM used a restore partition (stupid, stupid!) and only gave you the Windows (or whatever) install CDs if you requested them. Fortunately I have other CDs from which I could install Windows and Linux (anhilating the restore partition). I could easily see a case where a newbie was trying to install Linux on the same system anhilating Windows and having no way to restore.

Anyways, any geek knows that the first thing you do when you get a new computer is to wipe the hard drives. If there is software on any of my systems, only I installed it. I have a right to know what programs are running in the background.

Re:The trouble with OEM discs and copy protection

[Caspian]

I think Dell makes a good case here for why vendors should be forced to package clean OS discs...

Should vendors be forced to package clean OS discs? Of course. But it's never gonna happen. Two reasons:

1) End-users are not astute enough to demand it. The average end-user would just give you a blank look if you tried to explain the problem to them. They've never installed an OS themselves. They don't know, and quite frankly they don't care.
2) Free market religionists would scream bloody murder if you seriously talked about "forcing" any company to do anything (besides maybe "don't murder people").

There is a notion in this country that if something is wanted, "the market" (read: users) will demand it, and *poof* an offering will appear. The problem is that "the market" is too uneducated to know what to want, and the companies are too complacent to offer anything to them unless it's become clear that one of their competitors will do so first.

Thus we see crap like the bloated, polluted Dell installs. Even an average end-user is astute enough to see an improvement in speed after you've removed all the crap Dell installs alongside Windows (One end-user told me that their computer "has never been so fast" after I removed all of the crapola), but until they know the problem exists-- and most don't and never will-- they'll simply assume that their computer is supposed to be that slow, have those problems, take that long booting up, etc.

What's needed here is user education, but unfortunately the only two entities with the power and potential to step up to the bat-- the public school system and Microsoft-- aren't interested. The former is more interested in teaching kids the top few MS Word, MS Excel and MSIE functions purely by rote (and then telling them they're "computer literate"), and the latter... well, we all know what the latter wants. If they had an educated consumer base, things would look a lot different.

Re:The trouble with OEM discs and copy protection

[Anonymous Coward]

So a small minority of users want their consumer PC's configured in a certain way, and because a large company that caters to its customer base doesn't listen, you think that is a problem with free markets? Whatever you've been smoking, I'll take two.

Re:The trouble with OEM discs and copy protection

[1u3hr]

MOST OF THE IDIOTS LOST THEM.

What about the ones who aren't idiots? The ones who reinstalled from the disks without calling you?

You can receive a copy from tech support if ask.

The guys in TFA tried that. They spent a few hours on hold, didi it again after a few days when they didn't arrive as promised, finally got an OS disk without the necessary drivers, and were charged $10. Who wants to fuck around like that and not have the use of their computer for a week to save Dell 25c for a CDROM?

What matters?

[VincenzoRomano]

The important is that the hardware is powerful and the price is good.
Later you can install your favourite OS and run your best games!

Re:What matters?

[crazed]

Would you still be happy with your purchase of a new car if the dealer sold it to you with a Club on the steering wheel? How about a new car with square wheels? Both wouldn't be driveable in their original purchase state. That's essentially what Dell is doing to its customers. They have to go out of their way to fix Dell's screwups before they can fully utilize the product they've purchased.

Re:What matters?

[miyako]

The thing about it is that these machines are built to appeal to people who do not know how to reinstall the OS. While calling them power users may be a bit of a stretch, all of the PC gamers I know are generally computer literate enough to snap the parts together to build a PC, read on-screen directions to install an OS, etc. These same gamers also all build their own machines, because they know what's important to have to get a good gaming rig.
This machine is aimed at people who don't buy games because they don't know if their computer "has enough gigahertz of hard drive", the sort of people who if you did build a computer for them, would get all pissy that you put a GeForce 4 in the machine, and insist on that "voodoo 5" thing they heard about (yes, this happened to me, no I never did manage to convince them that the GeForce was better).
These people can not reinstall an OS. They want to use their PC like a game console- the PC says "gaming" so they should be able to go and buy a game, and it should work. If this machine cannot do that for those people, then it's a poor product.

Re:What matters?

[graymocker]

Dell's target market is precisely those users who aren't savvy enough to figure out these things on their own. HOCP is upfront with the fact that if you're competent you can tune the Dell into a decent machine - but anyone that technically adept probably wouldn't need to get a Dell box anyhow. It's a pity HOCP is a "hardcore" site and not a more mainstream outlet where the sort of customres that these Dell boxes are built for can read the problems with the box.

Too harsh

[Mattygfunk1]

.... Dell won't help troubleshoot trouble caused by viruses, the most likely reason a non-technical person would damage their MBR, instead telling you to call their pay-for-service phone line....

I wouldn't help you either. Is it just me or does the reviewer seem to have a chip on his shoulder the whole way through?

I like this kind of "whole experience" review, but I think things like taking "two clicks" to get to the relevant system on the website is being way too pedantic.

__
Updated Thrice Daily Adult Videos

Re:Too harsh

[Babbster]

I think that if you buy a gaming PC and can't install The Sims 2 - a ridiculously popular game - out of the box, then there's no such thing as a review that is "too harsh." The only possible excuse would be an actual hardware problem, and that obviously wasn't the case.

You may have a point on the virus issue (though I think it would be far more reasonable to limit the virus calls on the regular service line instead of banning them altogether) but that PC earned the lousy review because it was filled with easily preventable problems from the get-go.

Is it any suprise...

[heli0]

...that so many people have turned to consoles, when you can't even install brand new games on a brand new Dell PC without lockups and crashes?

Does anyone really want to be on the phone with India on Christmas morning trying to get a Sims game working for their kid? Do yourself a favor and just get them a Gamecube with Smash Bros and RE:4.

Re:lmao: mousepad was broken.

[nzodd]

Which is to say, all of the hardware which Dell purchased from OTHER VENDORS worked perfectly; but the very exact service that they're being payed to provide -- namely the proper configuration and testing of that hardware setup with the software they install by default, as well as technical support -- ended up being practically of no value. Sad.

I bought someone one of these ...

[TallMatthew]

... and spent about a month answering the question: "What is this popping up on my screen all the time? Do I need to do something?"

It's a nice machine but it took forever to clean up. These guys weren't exaggerating when they said it's bogged down with bloatware. No, I really don't want to sign up for AOL, use your personal firewall, browse the MusicMatch online store, purchase Quickbooks for a low low price, participate in your survey, buy a year's subscription of virus definitions, mow Michael Dell's lawn, tell Peter Norton my life story, yadda yadda yadda, ad nauseam. Really, I don't. No, I mean really. Really, goddamn it!

It's pretty amazing that other software was prevented from installing correctly and performance was degraded to a considerable extent. The story implied that about 80MB of RAM was consumed by the bloatware, but the computer has 1GB RAM. Assumedly it's not chewing all the CPU, so what exactly is it doing that breaks The Sims, for example?

Buy a Playstation

[Anonymous Coward]

I never did understand this.
Why do people spend $3k on a computer to play the Sims ?
Can't you just by a $100 playstation to do this ?

This is not sarcasm or any other kind of flamebait, but why is gaming on PC's so important ?
Can't you get a $500 PC for random computer work and then a $100 playstation (or random game system) for games ?

Just a question.

Re:Buy a Playstation

[Targon]

There are a lot of reasons for playing games on a PC instead of on a console.

For starters, you can generally run at a higher resolution with higher video quality on a PC when compared to a console. Even HD for a display doesn't give the video quality of a cheap monitor. You can turn on Anti-Aliasing to improve the video quality as well.

You can upgrade and choose the level of the system you want. You arn't stuck with a single configuration, you can choose to start with a very low end machine and work your way upward from there.

Mods, short for modifications are available for many games now. I'm not talking about things like "nude patches", but instead, good solid additions to a game, or changes to improve a game. If there is a problem with a game, in many cases a fix can be gotten.

Expansions don't need to include the full original game. As a result, expansions will be cheaper compared to buying the original game all over again with each expansion.

Controls and interface tend to offer more complexity on a PC compared to a console. Yes, there are cases where a controller will be a better choice, but in many cases, having a full keyboard available for controls will help make a game less complicated. No need for "left thumb while holding the B button and then hitting A to make a special combination" if you have a keyboard which has keys mapped to these type of moves.

There are more types of games out there besides action games. I know it's shocking, but there are a lot of people out there who prefer strategy or adventure games. Try playing a game like civilization 4 and you will see that having a keyboard makes the game a lot easier than some console game controller. Flight simulators also have a LOT of controls, and as a result, having a lot of keys for all these different controls really does make a game more playable. The list goes on.

These are just a few of the reasons to go with a PC for games. If you look at the price of game consoles these days, you should know that the Xbox 360 will cost you $300 or more depending on which features come with your console. With these prices, a computer that costs $700 and can do work, allow you to chat with friends, do research, browse the web, and so on really isn't a horrible price to pay.

If you enjoy consoles, that's fine, but if you compare some games available on both the PC and console, you might be amazed that the PC is a better platform for many games. Just don't think that a game that came out on a console then got released on a PC is an indication of what a true PC game can do. Also don't try to compare how things are on a $400 computer to a $400 console because it's not a fair comparison unless you have a choice in what to get for your child. A top of the line console costs $400, a top of the line computer can cost over $2000 for a complete system, and a BOTTOM of the line computer costs $400. A $1000 computer(including monitor) can compare well to a $400 console, yet provides a lot more functionality.

Re:Buy a Playstation

[Zathrus]

Why do people spend $3k on a computer to play the Sims ?

Because they're idiots.

Can't you get a $500 PC for random computer work and then a $100 playstation (or random game system) for games ?

Yeah, and I can also build a $600 PC that will blow the PS2 out of the water when it comes to graphics and seriously compete against (and sometimes surpass) the Xbox360.

The real question is what games do you want to play, and that's what should influence your decision. If you like RTSs, MMORPGs, or FPSs then the PC is the only real option. For platformers, "RPGs" (e.g. -- Final Fantasy), and "party games" then consoles are where it's at. If you want to game online, then the PC is better, while gaming with a bunch of people in the same room is clearly the consoles' forte. There will always be platform-specific games (ala Civ4 for the PC, or Katamari Damarcy for the PS2), so that's also a consideration.

BTW, the Sims on consoles is nowhere even close to the PC version. It's simply too stripped down, both in UI and graphics.

The next generation consoles (Xbox360 and PS3) are going to really shrink the gap graphics-wise between the consoles and the PC, but they're still quite a bit less powerful. And unless they get serious about allowing keyboard/mouse input (as an option, obviously) then they'll still be deficient for a lot of game genres (MMO being the biggest).

What's the Bang for the Buck?

[Quirk]

I assemble my own boxes because it's relaxing and I get to pick and choose my components. I get to go with Seagate drives that have never failed me and Viewsonic G or P series Crts, I've got the desktop realestate to go with crts and they give me the best results.

So why buy a Dell? If you're going to wipe the drive and do an install from scratch you're losing any benefit from their install. If you're after a system for gaming wouldn't you want to build it yourself? Is it just the ~50 bucks saved?

I've never owned or used a Dell so I don't know what the draw is other than the obvious of buying in bulk.

Re:What's the Bang for the Buck?

[Sesticulus]

Two reasons, price, support.

Because last November I bought a dual Xeon 3 ghz with 3 year warranty for the same money it would cost to buy just the CPUs and OS from some place like newegg. So I got for free; memory, video, motherboard, optical drive, hard drive, + 3 year warranty, and didn't have to spend a few hours assembling it myself.

If something goes wrong with it, I don't have to spend my time futzing with it, a guy shows up the next day with parts and fixes it. On one dell laptop when the power supply burned out, they shipped me a new one morning delivery, I had it before the batteries died. One coworker they sent a new laptop power supply when he just lost it, he had called to order a new one. You can't beat the support.

Now the wife's game machine is a homegrown because it doesn't cost me money when it's down, but for my production machines I always buy Dell.

My XPS 400

[EBFoxbat]

I can't help it. I never bought a Dell, but with a new job I didn't have time to build a rig so I bought an XPS 400. Anyone with half a brain and some hardware knowledge knows you can't just remove Dell's included software. You just format the disk and install a new one from scratch. You are paying for an OS and hardwarem, but atleast in my case, I just wanted the hardware. Nuke the OS and start from scratch, it's a wonderful thing.

Re:lmao: mousepad was broken.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Microsoft Optical Mouse is the finest product that Microsoft has ever made. It almost makes all of the previous crappy software worth it. Almost.

The reason for the software is money

[ytzombe]

That bloatware crap on there is there for a very big reason, money. In the cut throat margin of the PC business, that bloatware crap gives money back to Dell to make some money off the system.

Re:Pre-installed.

[brxndxn]

Ya.. with the handy dandy xp CD that Dell doesn't include with the PC.

He makes good points, but he's wrong on "Autorun"

[tkrotchko]

He says this to complain"

"For example, our CD/DVD Autorun was disabled - or more accurately, "broken" - by Corel Photo Downloader. [...] After we clicked on "no thanks," the computer wouldn't go through the normal autorun process - we installed the games by clicking on My Computer"

Yes, and Dell did you a favor, albeit by accident.

You don't want Autorun enabled. If the Sony incident taught you nothing else, it should have taught you "AUTORUN==BAD".

Sorry, but I have to say it: Linux

[DoofusOfDeath]

Don't get me wrong: I'm not an unabashed Linux fanboy. I wrestle with hardware compatability, video codec lameness, etc.

But: once you get a Linux box up and running (for instance Debian or Ubuntu), you pretty much don't have any of the problems the author described.

Perhaps more importantly: Free Linux distros can focus fully on what makes the user happy. They have no need for idiotic vendor lock-in tactics, buggy product tie-ins, or denying you access to the OS install disks, etc. It's simply a complete non-issue. This is probably the main reason I love Linux even when not programming - I get to totally avoid this category of stupidity.

With Linux, yes it's often a rocky road getting it to work, but the distro authors and I are on the *same* side, without reservation. We just want me to have a system that's lean and stable and productive. And that's what I get.

Channel partner hell

[HangingChad]

The pre-installed programs that Dell chose to include on its computer were almost certainly the cause of all these problems, and unloading these programs from the boot-up routine fixed the problems.

Dell does that to all their consumer level machines, one of the things that got me interested in building my own. I still remember the first time booting up a home built with an OEM OS disk, it was so clean. No AOL or other ISP's, no trialware and it booted so much faster.

Guess I'm a little surprised some users would be willing to reinstall the OS to get rid of the junk Dell loads their machines with at the expense of your time.

It costs a little more to build your own but you get such great components. And it doesn't come loaded with junkware.

Re:Out of the box install..

[coastal984]

Here's what I think their reasoning is behind preinstalled crap - yes, its confusing. And they know that. They WANT it to be confusing so that when Soccer Mom Jane goes online to buy Little Johnny the gaming computer he asked for from Santa, she doesn't know that it's all worthless and assumes Dell is really giving her all this GREAT software for free!!! The same goes with all their other systems - all the crap is meant to make you think it comes with all this great stuff.

Then theres also the fact that so much of the crap is "trial" and they probably get commisions from the purchase of full licenses... Think: Saving money off the cost of the box in exchange for preinstalled ads.... God I love corporate America...

Re:Out of the box install..

[MP3Chuck]

So that in 8-12 months when it's painfully slow to boot/run/etc... they decide they need a new computer.

"This one's slow, it must be wearing out..."

Don't think it hasn't been said...

Anti-Dell Bias - Go camp out and Buy an XBOX 360!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Author(s) seem to have an anti-Dell stance, but all the problems they experienced were a bit much.

The overall point of having a 'Clean OS recovery disk' and an 'Added Software disk' is the best point of the Article.

This would be an excellent approach to support - the 2 CDs would allow end users to decide how to restore their system.

The On-Site hardware repair guy did an excellent job, NO he shouldn't be wasting his time and your time
to test the CD Drive, the Testing was already done, and the RMA means he explicitly should NOT test it.
The drive was pronounced DEAD by tech support, his job is to swap parts and then get out of your way.
To complain about him not wasting another 50 minutes of time testing something already known to be dead is stupid.

The 'Clean OS Recovery Disk' and 'Value Added Disk' would save Dell, HP, Gateway, and all the other companies thousands of hours of tech support, and Millions of dollars of lost profit.

The improved customer service and many happy gamers (and business users) would just be a side benefit!

You think they just put all that stuff on for fun?

[ciw42]

I've never considered buying a Dell home/gaming PC, as there's plenty of competition in that area, and I usually find better and cheaper alternatives or simply build my own. However, for standard office workstations, the Dell kit is an absolute bargain. I've bought dozens of these machines over the years and have been very happy with them in terms of price, build & performance.

I work as a consultant for many small to medium businesses, and I recommend Dell for workstations and small workgroup servers in most cases, and as long as you don't actually have to speak to someone at Dell about units ordered via the Internet (don't get me started on that) the experience is very efficient, you can save a fortune, and end up with very good kit for peanuts.

I've never had reason to fault the quality of the build or components, and whilst I tend to find their add-on options a little more expensive than I can get them for seperately, it usually makes sense to order them at the same time to keep things nice and simple. Dell obviously know that, and with reported working margins of only around 10%, you can hardly blame them, it's a business not a charity after all.

For the past few years though, as many have already posted, the machines have arrived full of trial-ware and Dell cut down versions of commercial packages that nobody in a business environment is even vaguely interested in. My first job is always to remove this crud, which can take up to 30 minutes per machine. The reason? I'm pretty damn certain that there's a financial benefit to Dell by putting trial versions of commercial software from these companies on all their machines, and for the low-spec workstations would explain how they manage to achieve such low price points.

I guess you just have to ask yourself would you rather spend 30 minutes uninstalling the unwanted software and tidying things up the first time you boot the machine, or spend extra money getting/building a machine to save a little time?

Re:Out of the box install..

[zerocool^]

One of the worst offenders is freaking OEM's who feel the need to bundle their own wireless / 802.11x detection and attachment application. I mean, really. I love Linksys, but even they are guilty of providing this crap with their wireless add-in cards. But OEM laptops are the WORST. Whether it's intel's centrino or whoever, those apps are universally stupid. The Wireless zero configuration utility that's included with WinXPSP2 is excellent, stable, and integrated.

Just brings me to another problem - Provide me with a goddamn driver. I want a DLL file which interfaces the API given to the OS and applications with the commands make the hardware function. That's IT. I'm looking at you, HP. I don't want a freaking systray app for NVidia, my onboard audio's "control deck", my printer (for ink management?), my wireless card, and every other goddamn thing in the computer - I don't want to know about it, I just want it to work!

There are HP Drivers which are no joking 300MB downloads. What?!? 300MB? That's an OS, that's not a driver!

~Will

Re:{H]ard OCP goes soft?

[damsa]

Well, to give {H]ard OCP credit it was a different reviewer reviewing the Gateway and the Dell.

Re:Differences between Dell business and consumer

[DigitalReality]

You shouldn't have to pay $50-$100 more to have your computer work like it should (or was built to) or to speak to American Tech Support. That's what is wrong with that industry today.

just re-install

[tomstdenis]

I don't know what the problem is.

My new dell laptop had like 15 programs in the taskbar on startup. Including McAfee which "really" wanted me to set it up [you can't just close the program]. I'd have a program popping up to tell me every 3 seconds.

I first grabbed cpuid to make sure the system was what I ordered. Then I grabbed my windows cd and reinstalled. I hate windows but I really hate windows with two dozen startup programs to make my "experience better".

All the players do this though, not just dell. It just seems Dell is the champ.

Tom

Re:Differences between Dell business and consumer

[dekemoose]

What's wrong with the industry is a constant drive towards thinner margins caused by a market environment that rewards those who compete on price, at the expense of other things. One of the things that has been stripped out to lower costs is good service. If, however, you are willing to pay a bit more, you can get service put back in.

It's not nearly as offensive as you think, it almost makes more sense. Why should someone have to pay for good service if they don't care whether they get good service?

Dell used to make great PCs

[Hyperx_Man]

I actually find it hard to just buy a PC, and currently with my busy schedule, I do not have the time to build one. I tried a high end HP, and we had problems from beginning, a DELL had a power supply that went bad, MPC micron is my next choice. I hear the same from others. It's just hard to get a decent PC. Local mom and pop shops are basically taking the easy way out, selling pre-made bare bone systems. If there was a time for Apple to take over, it's now.

Re:MOD UP

[Ignignot]

It still doesn't answer why you said the Gateway was better. I'm no Dell fanboy, I built my own computer, but if you say "Dell's offering sucks because of x, y, and z" and then say that its competitor was great even though it had the same problems in many cases, you undermine any sort of confidence that people will have in any reviews at the website, even when they are by different authors.

So which is right? Does the Dell system suck, and the Gateway suck, or are they both actually ok, especially considering that any serious gamer would immediately wipe the computer, would go in and tweak what processes Windows ran, and would install the latest drivers? How do you justify the disparity in how the reviews were written by leaving out how the initial configuration did for Gateway?

--From the Author

[Brian Boyko]

Your first point: Yes, Gateway had an agreement with Hardocp.com, Dell did not. We felt that it was worth it to take a look at the Dell before the holiday season even if we didn't, simply because of the size and the holiday season.

But this didn't have an impact on the review. In fact, we could have very well chosen not to review Dell's products because we simply didn't have an agreement. But Dell's too big to ignore for Santa Season.

As a front-line writer, it really didn't matter to me whether we got Dell's promise to RMA the system or not. Kyle tells Chris to do the article. Chris tells me to write the article. I don't get a whole lot of choice in what to review. I do get a lot of choice in -how- to review.

If Dell had an RMA agreement, this review would have been exactly the same. I mentioned it because I believe sunlight is the best disinfectant. We have given bad scores to companies that had RMA agreements with us.

Second Point: Yes, the Gateway had a number of similar problems, but the first difference was that of degree: The Dell had far more bloatware on the system, and the second difference was that of kind: The Gateway's bloatware did not interfere with system operation. There was a performance hit, sure. But we didn't have stability problems with the Gateway.

"Pre-installed software" has two big benifits - the kickbacks keep the price low, and they actually are useful for a novice user who doesn't know how to install software. We have to balance that out. Don't get me wrong - we prefer clean systems. But there's bloatware and then there's BLOATWARE.

Journalistic integrity means alot to me, personally - and I can understand this criticism. And you know what, I'm glad you bring it up. Questioning is the best way to get at something and sunlight's the best disinfectant. HardOCP.com has forums set up so that peole can ask questions and we'll do our best to answer them.

Hope to see you there.

-- Brian Boyko
-- The Guy Whut Rote That Shtuff.

They aren't *for* the idiots.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya, most idiots lose them. So what? AOL sends bazillions of CDs out per year, and most of them get trashed. CDs cost nothing.

For the non-idiots, providing the CDs would be an enormous help--and only fair, seeing as how it's software they've legally licensed!

(disclaimer: I don't buy Dell anymore).