Fate of High-Def DVD up to Microsoft?

BlackMesaResearchFac writes "EE Times is reporting that Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war. From the article: 'several industry sources last week told EE Times that Microsoft is muscling into the optical-disk fray by leveraging its operating-system clout to bundle HD-DVD within Vista, the company's next-generation OS. There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"

Comments

Anti Competitive

[ackthpt]

There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"

I thought this was deemed illegal in the past. IIRC Microsoft was busted for kickback payments to system vendors who did their bidding, i.e. wouldn't bundle competing products on Windows installed computers. A "Coupon" wouldn't make it any different, it's an anti-competitive practice.

In October, when Microsoft and Intel Corp. announced their support for HD-DVD, Weber warned of "legal implications, if Microsoft is using its dominance in the operating system market -- virtually a monopoly -- to play favorites and hurt the competition" (see www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleI D=171202192).

With good reason.

Among familiar Microsoft tactics is to offer incentives -- promotions, discounts and credits -- to PC OEMs. If a certain percentage of an OEM's systems use Windows, Microsoft typically chips in on advertising campaigns and co-sponsors promotional events. When a PC manufacturer is living on a 3 percent margin, such market-development payments or volume-discount rebates can be make-or-break factors. Some industry observers have termed these in-kind subsidies from Microsoft "the heroin of the PC industry."

Vendors who have this incentive will not diminish their potential revenue by giving consumers a choice.

This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

Expect it to go to court after it is fait accompli.

it's a new hope of return of the revenge of the menacing phantom clone empire striking back all over again.
"If I had time and a hammer, I'd track down every blue hd ray dvd and smash it"

Re:Anti Competitive

[garcia]

This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless. This is the sole reason they are doing it and by leveraging their weight against PC makers, etc to attempt to harm their competition in a completely different market is the worst of it all.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how this is any different from what Sony is trying to do. They are going to use their dominance in the console market to try to make Blu-Ray the defacto standard. Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

Re:Anti Competitive

[garcia]

Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

Re:Anti Competitive

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default

I have a feeling it isn't that hardware that is the issue (just my speculation). But doesn't Blu-Ray use java for its interactive content system? We all know the fights and head-aches about can MS include a jvm? Is MS forced to include a jvm? What version does it have to be? etc, etc, etc? With HD-DVD I belive the interactive content is run my a MS system iHD so obviously its pretty easy for them to support. Now they don't like Sony much I guess and I'm sure that plays into it, but as far as what they OS supports I think its more of a software issue than a hardware issue.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

Sony doesn't have to resort to this because they developed both Blu-Ray and the PS3. They don't have to bribe themselves to include it. I don't want to defend Microsoft's tactics but I can understand why they are doing this if true. They already missed out on including next generation support in XBox 360, and they can't control what kind of hardware PC makers include with their systems. Millions of PS3s with Blu-Ray support will make it the defacto standard.

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

It will be supported the same way that optical drives are supported now. The software will come with the drive. They are not preventing Blu-Ray from working in Windows, they are simply trying to encourage vendors to include HD-DVD drives in their systems.

As for the console market, the XBox 360 has a standard DVD drive in it. This won't help Microsoft increase marketshare. Maybe I confused you when I stated that Microsoft is doing the same thing that Sony is doing.

Monopoly anybody?

[sterno]

Yeah this is a clear cut case of them using their monopoly position to undercut Sony. A part of Sony's big gamble on the PS3 is that they can establish the market dominance of BluRay for HD media. What we are witnessing here is Microsoft's counter move, using their dominance of desktops to for HD-DVD as the standard.

Who's behind the curtain?

[inphinity]

Now, granted, I don't know much about how standards like these are developed, but shouldn't this sort of far-reaching decision with industry-wide implications not be left up to one entity? Especially one with such a vested interest in its outcome, such as Microsoft?

At the same time, I sort of wonder if maybe it's better to have one source for specifications for a technology, to avoid the kind of industry war that consumed DVD+/-R's development.

Let's play Monopoly

[Matt Perry]

...bundle HD-DVD within Vista... the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD.

Putting that monopoly to use again, I see. Wasn't there supposed to be a court or someone overseeing them to prevent just such abuses?

Ugh

[commo1]

I'm just as big a fan of HD over Blu-Ray as anyone, but cash incentives and coupons? From Microsoft? (OK, any big software monopoly with holds on the OS market..... wait... never mind). This is not right and this is not fair.

Re:Ugh

[QuietLagoon]

This is not right and this is not fair.

When has either of those mattered to Microsoft?

A recent comment of mine.

It's all about the Java

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Blu-Ray players will all come with a Java VM inside, and the interactive content on the discs will be in Java. MS developed the competing environment for interactive content, iHD, with Disney (and Toshiba, I believe). MS has plans to include iHD support with Vista.

So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel. It's really not surprising the companies have lined up this way. There are feature differences as well that probably come into play, but I wouldn't expect MS to support the format that will ship with the PS3.

Re:It's all about the Java

[The Lynxpro]

"So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel."

Don't forget Matsushita (Panasonic) and Apple are both on the Blu-Ray side... Although it would be in Apple's best interest to put out the feelers to the HD-DVD camp if only to bring Sony back to the table on ditching the Sony Connect online store in favor of a broad-based licensing agreement that would make iTunes the standard for the Playstation3, the PSP, all the Walkmans, and Sony Vaio computers. Not only would Apple get some serious cash, but it would also reduce the chance of an anti-trust complaint that Apple has monopolized the iPod/iTunes combo by opening the platform up to a competitor.

Wrong

[the computer guy nex]

"Microsoft is considering HD-DVD for the next hardware revision of the XBOX 360"

Microsoft has said no to HD-DVD inside the 360.

Reason? Games with hi-res textures have been available for under 9 gigs for awhile now on a PC. No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.

Re:Wrong

[Troed]

Please explain the DRM differences between HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

Oh. Really?

That's what I thought as well.

(PS: You're wrong about how much room games will require in the next 4-5 years btw)

Re:Wrong

[bliSSter138]

If you for one second think that Microsoft (let that name rattle in your head for a second before you continue reading), is being altrustic here and has non-DRM consumers' best interests in mind, then you've been under the desk for a bit too long. MS has their own set of plans for DRM; if you haven't been keeping up take a quick look at any recent iteration of Windows Media Player.

I guarantee the only reason that MS isn't backing Blu-Ray, if it has anything to do with DRM, is because Sony or whomever isn't letting them in on the back-end of their technology.

If Redmond is supporting it, HD-DVD will have DRM to some degree just as Blu-Ray does.

Who builds consumer players?

[SuperKendall]

Microsoft will have no control over the final result, as they are neither the company that makes the discs consumers buy nor the company that makes the devices people will play the majority of discs on.

If Microsoft were really serious about HD-DVD they would have delay the 360 launch to include it. From where they sit now the only thing they can do is savage thier own marketshare with a dual console system with some HD-DVD units and some not.

The war is already over since people will have millions of players by way of PS3 - who will then naturally proceed to buy discs for said players since they have them, and so more discs will be made since more people are buying them in that format.

Welcome to Betaville Microsoft - population you.

Everyone needs to just relax!

[gasmonso]

Microsoft is looking at this issue like any other. Sure they may back one or the other but it's not that big of a deal. No matter what format they decide to "support", it's just a driver. If they go with HD-DVD, that means they'll just include that driver on the OS. Who cares?!?! If you buy a Blu-Ray drive, it'll ship with a driver anyways.

The real concern here is what the movie industry will support and put movies on. And of course DRM is the other big issue. But no matter who the "winner" is, it won't matter for the PC anyways as it will support both.

http://religiousfreaks.com/

So much momentum. Wonder if DIVX can happen again.

[Elwood P Dowd]

When DIVX was crushed it felt like a giant victory. But DIVX only had one company behind it. This time the draconian DRM will have the entire tech industry behind it. And people won't be buying self-destructing media.

I think we're fucked.

If people actually stick with their DVD drives and let HD-DVD and BluRay both die on the vine, maybe some tech companies will do the right thing. But it's an extremely long shot.

Microsoft, the anti-DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the reason MS doesn't like blu-ray is because it is so DRM laden that it doesn't allow full interoperability with Microsofts media center software and its accessories. Otherwise there is no real reason for microsoft to even care whether either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray become the next generation video format, as currently Microsoft has no vested interest in either of them.

Yes, normally Microsoft is the DRM king, but in this case it seems that they believe that Sony's DRM is going too far, or at least that it is going to hurt their business model somehow (otherwise they probably wouldn't care how bad the DRM was.)

And having read the DRM specifications on Sony's Blu-Ray format, I quite agree with Microsoft here. I would prefer Blu-Ray in that it has larger capacity than HD-DVD, but the "DRM to the extreme" that Sony is putting on Blu-Ray just ruins the whole thing. Sorry, HD-DVD all the way IMO.

No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide.

[LWATCDR]

The format that they publish Lord of the Rings and StarWars on will be the format that wins. It is about software people. If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.

Re:DOJ Settlement violation

[Bogtha]

You missed the most important bit:

The proposed Final Judgment will be in effect for a five year period and may be extended for an additional two-year period if the Court finds that Microsoft has engaged in multiple violations of the proposed Final Judgment.

So as long as Microsoft holds off on the kickbacks until November 2006, they are safe. From Wikipedia:

The currently scheduled release of the full version of Windows Vista is late 2006.

What an amazing coincidence.

No violation

[everphilski]

* giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;

They are giving incentives to HD-DVD over BlueRay, not banning BlueRay development. There is a difference between incentives and Microsoft saying no.

-everphilski-

HD DVD is less restrictive, DRM-wise

[everphilski]

Free, secure, better OS + Blu-Ray (higher capacity & quality) AND BADA$$ DRM

Bloated, expensive OS + HD-DVD (lower capacity and quality). LESS RESTRICTIVE DRM

IMO Microsoft is backing the right technology...

-everphilski-

Re:thank god for competition

[JWW]

Does your Internet connection have the bandwidth to stream HD video in real time?

Not in the United States for the foreseeable future... But other places are going to love it.

Re:thank god for competition

[forkazoo]

Does your Internet connection have the bandwidth to stream HD video in real time?

Mine has the bandwidth to download an hour's worth of HD to watch tomorrow night. Really, that's good enough for a lot of people. It's good enough for me. Many folks keep insisting that all people always want to watch what's on TV *right now.* Sure, there are some who consider that to be the number one feature. Others are completely fine with queuing up a bunch of downloads, and having a collection of other shows already downloaded and ready to watch. This is basically the exact same model as Tivo. As long as I can start watching *something* right now, and I can watch it from the beginning, on my schedule, without worrying about being interrupted because I can pause it... Well, for many people, that trumps the inconvenience of having to wait until tomorrow to watch "tonight's" program. Just watch yesterday's program and be at peace. I'm doing stuff tonight, so I'll probably start a download tonight when I get home, and I'll have it ready for me to watch tomorrow. No instant-real time streaming needed, and I'll be completely sated for my media fix. (I need to ind out what happens next in Bleach!)

Re:That's just great

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave it to Microsoft to fuck things up and force the worst product down our throats. Blu-ray is so superior to HD-DVD it's not even funny. But Microsoft, King of Shit, doesn't want to play with Sony. It all comes down to the XB360 needing a different drive than the Blu-ray enabled PS3. Anything to differentiate yourself, right Microshit, anything other than actually producing a higher quality product that is.

"Worst product" is pretty subjective, personally I think both products are equally bad. I have no intention of maintaining a backup of my hard-drive on several optical discs, and mostly don't expect many pieces of software to exceed 30 MBs for years, so for PC use neither is particularly better. Neither format takes full use of compression to allow more video content to be stored on an individual disc; if you look at WMV-HD you can fit HD movies on a conventional DVD, so you should be able to (using the same compression) fit the entire LotR movies on a single HD-DVD/Blu-Ray disc (but you can't because neither format supports decent compression). Finally, both formats are pretty DRM heavy which (although it will be broken quickly) is enough reason not to buy into one of these formats; the best way to prevent piracy is to sell your product for a price that people are willing to pay (at $10 per movie you would cover all of your costs and people would buy a lot more movies [why rent when for only 2x the price you could own it])

MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[SteveXE]

1st off how is it illegal for Microsoft to promote a piece of hardware they DO NOT EVEN OWN? How does it further their "monopoly"? Next, 2 months ago everyone was crying about Blu-Ray's extreme DRM, and while HD-DVD has DRM as well its not as bad as what Sony is trying to shove down our throats. The difference is today MS is doing something to help the better standard so you all bitch because it must be bad.

Have we all forgoten about rootkits? Whats worse, MS giving out a freaking coupon or Sony using their DRM to cripple our Blu-Ray players because we tried to watch something they didnt like, or because we took a screw out of the case, or because we lent a friend the latest movie we bought, or because they just damn well feel like it.

Topic answer is Sony.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your first point is absurd. They are furthering their interests in a number of ways. Obviously they hope to block Blu-ray from becoming the standard. Who develops the PS3 and has hyped Blu-ray as a great feature of it? Sony. Who is competing with the PS3? Oh yeah, Microsoft. They're trying to extend their monopoly into the living room, and if you don't think they are with all of their WebTV, Xbox 360, and Media Center projects, you're just naive. One way to gather a huge amount of leverage is to control how the media is distributed. This is not only a defensive move to counter the PS3's launch, but to try to control media in the home.

Also, how do you know what the HD-DVD DRM or the Blu-ray DRM will allow at this point? They haven't finalized the spec for either one, and you have no idea what type of last minute changes will bring (for better or worse). No one cries about extreme DRM anymore because both are pretty much the same from the consumer point of view. Your paranoia about DRM is just astonishing to be frank. BTW, it isn't Sony that's driving the DRM march. Disney, Paramount, Warner Bros., and pretty much everyone else in the business has an active interest in DRM as well.

I think you have more of a beef with Sony than you do with Blu-ray itself.

We see how well it worked for firewire and DVDram

[porkThreeWays]

As I remember it, Windows XP was at the threshold of new technologies. I think that's right around the time USB 2.0 was coming out and the ability for home users to burn DVD's...

Microsoft favored DVD-ram as its DVD format and Firewire over USB 2.0. We all see how much effect they had on those outcomes.

Hardware makers have more say. What the OS supports out of box is almost irrevalent. What ever hardware you purchase is going to usually have drivers and software for at least Windows anyway. There are many factors as to who's going to win this war. Microsoft is on that list, but they are like number 348.

Why oh why do they listen to MS

[dalek_killer]

I think that MS would be the last company that anyone should listen to when it comes to setting standards since MS can't set any standards that work right.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Trogre]

And in your crusade against Sony, do you realise that you're effectively handing Microsoft the game console market on a silver platter?

What interesting times we live in.

Re:thank god for competition

[doubledoh]

And of course that fails to acknowledge that these "25 gig" movies are going to be compressed with the latest comprssion algorithm into 4.3 gigs or less so we can fit them on standard single layer dvds. Hell, I download 42 minutes of HDTV rips with 5.1 sound and it comes in at a nice 699 MB--just perfect for a plain ol CD and it looks GREAT. A movie with the same quality is only 2 or 3 times as long...so it's obvious that the downloads won't be as massive as the industry hopes they will be. It will only take ONE person to rip each new HDDVD/bluray disc even if it has to be through an analog hole, and the rest, will be history.