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IBM iSeries or Windows server?
Rabid Cougar asks: "I am the network administrator for a small manufacturing company. Our current ERP system has outlived its usefulness and we are in the process of selecting another package. Our present ERP system runs on an IBM AS/400, but there are those in the company who believe we should switch to something that only runs on Windows. My position is this: if we can find software that will meet our needs that runs on an IBM iSeries (new name for the AS/400) then we'd be certifiably crazy to move over to the Windows platform. A co-worker insists there are a ton of reasons to avoid the iSeries like the plague. I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but if you were to bet your career on this issue, which side would you choose and why?"
If it currently works on AS/400, and you really need to upgrade the system, then I'd change one variable (the hardware), and keep running the current ERP. If they later wish to transition to a Windows-only solution, make sure that you get a generous time-table and enough technical support to ensure that it's running smoothly before the old system is turned off.
I'm sure that's being done, but sometimes executives get bit by a buzzword-compliant vendor, and lose sight of what's actually at risk; your entire business. Remember when Hershey shot itself in the foot over a several-month period when their SAP upgrade didn't work as well as it should have.
Note, I have no particular love for AS/400s, but I do believe in being cautious when potentially screwing up my entire environment and calling months of unpleasant work down on my head.
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
You choice chould be swayed by security; I don't know about the new i5/OS generation, but back when it was called OS/400 it had one of the highest ratings for both security and stability of any mid-range system in its market. Whether this is because OS/400 really was more secure or just too obscure to exploit is up to personal opinion.
Qsecofr vs. root, eh?
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
It got so bad that the processing teams actually created little pieces of card that they used as tickets to ensure that they could access workflow (web-based run on windows).
The users within SI (my dept) have told us that if we ever force them to do the same with our applications, which include DebtManager on AS/400, then we can expect to be very bruised.
To answer your question, I would point out the mass of windows problems and ask someone to show anything that has gone wrong with (insert midrange / mainframe platform here) that has caused the same effect.
Good luck.
You'd be certifiably crazy to think that a Windows server would be as stable or as reliable as an AS/400 server. AS/400 (iSeries) systems are almost as hardcore as they come, and much less expensive than S/390 (zSeries) or Tandem->Compaq->HP NonStop Himalaya.
However, if you have no AS/400 admins in house, but you have plenty of Windows Server gurus, well, then I think you would be better off with Windows. I've seen the same situation with Linux. Company decides to switch servers to Linux but the admins only know how to speak Windows, disaster ensues.
... but it seems pretty obvious to me that there's a pretty reasonable way to solve this in a rational manner with a trade study. obviously, the more money at stake, the more time you'll have to be willing to invest in the trade study. as a rough guide:
/then/ ask again whether the iSeries or a windows based solution is better. otherwise, your choice of platform is already made for you.
1) write down the features you need in an ERP
2) find ERP packages which fit the bill
3) define appropriate metrics (cost of administration, expected amount of down time, etc.) i realize that many of these will be fairly fuzzy, but you can still get a reasonable idea. metrics should include both costs (upfront and maintence / tco type estimates, whether you already have admins to do the job or will you have to hire, etc.) and benefits / utility
4) map out on a matrix how each ERP package performs overall
5) pick the best ERP in terms of cost/benefit
6) if the winning ERP runs on multiple hardware platforms,
personally, as i spend more time in industry, i become increasingly agnostic: i don't care if it's linux, os x, solaris, windows, vxworks, etc. — if it's the right tool for the job, then that's what i'll use. which means os x at home, linux for work, and windows for administrivia, time sheets, presentations, etc. in my case.
So you are looking at all the ERP packages out there and have to decide on a new one. Should you then let the enviroment it runs on be a deciding factor?
I think both yes and no. Obviously you should select the package that is best for your needs considering all the factors like costs, reliabilty, likelihood of the software company to continue to exist, security, usability and god knows what more. There are enough books out there to tell you what to check.
The OS shouldn't have to matter. In an ideal world it doesn't but this world isn't ideal. Choosing one OS or the other has significant effects.
Flamewar material would be to point out that the current wmf mess would suggest that windows is still as insecure as ever. Then again you can ask wether this security hole is a risk for a backoffice system.
Then there is a question of lock-in, going for windows only solutions tends to force you to continue with windows only solutions for ever. You will loose your competent admins either because you fire them to replace them with far cheaper window admins or they will quit on their own. You will be another MS shop. Is this bad? Well not really. ERP software is usually a long term solution anyway and who can say if your company is even going to be around a decade from now? Plus a backoffice lock-in can at least be easier broken then a frontoffice lock-in.
Anyway AS/400 could be considered just as much of a lock-in choice.
Do the people who want to switch to the Windows only solution do this because that ERP package is the best or because it runs on windows?
I would personally seriously question any real software that does not run on multiple platforms. We are not talking games here wich are bound to the OS by choice of libraries.
I would also take a good long hard look at real uptime of such a solution under real workloads. INCLUDE the upcoming wmf patch and such delights as code red wich are bound to happen in the life time of your new erp solution.
AS/400 == nightmare but at least it is a nightmare you control and not every scriptkiddie on the internet.
If the choice for the new ERP system is going to be based on OS choice alone however I would recommend you get your CV ready.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If you can find the software you want I'd suggest you stay with the iSeries. Going to Windows makes you subject to all the problems of a commodity piece of hardware and Microsoft's strange ideas of what makes a good server. The iSeries on the other hand has it's roots in a mainframe world where the hardware and OS all come from the same vendor. The result is a far far more stable system.
There are stories about AS/400s running in offices where an IBM service rep shows up and nobody in the office knows where the machine is - the last person who touched the hardware retired years ago... or even that the machine had been plastered into a closet when the office had been remodeled. These things are designed to run for years continuously without being babied or rebooted. It will make your life much easier.
"Technically lesser" ? Could you point out how Microsoft and Intel solutions are technically lesser?
Now, I'm not saying the iSeries is bad. Given infinite money, it probably makes a lot of sense for a lot of problem sets. I just can't imagine recommending one for any of the applications I've ever been involved with.
It kills me to say this, but without knowing more of the specifics I'd probably recommend the Windows boxen - or, more likely, a cluster of them. There's more than one way to get the kind of reliability you can squeeze from an AS/400, and most of them are a lot cheaper.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Micrsoft's ERP products for manufacturing are second to none
Huh??? Microsoft is a wannabe in the serious ERP market - but regardless of software vendor, if you're considering the platform question, it becomes a matter of scale. If you need rock-solid reliability, high-volume throughput and widespread realtime access to the data and application, then the iSeries is the obvious choice.
Just as an example, I'm currently the IT project lead on an ERP installation. The ERP itself can run on a number of different platforms, of which we're going with the iSeries. Their collaborative gateway package runs on Windows, but our order volumes made their techies soil their shorts, so we're going with an alternative (iSeries-based) solution for that part.
If the situation here is for a low order-volume, low user base or other smaller scenario (say, for a niche manufacturer of high-dollar, low volume product), then maybe Windows becomes an affordable option. But if they've already got iSeries inhouse (both the hardware and the support staff), then they probably need that level of stability.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I'd stick with AS/400 if I were you, especially if you have competent admins to administer it. AS/400's reliability and security is second only to large scale mainframes, and last much better than x86 when it comes to long term investment. Sure it costs a lot up front, but when you consider that system could last 7-15 years easily, it sure beats a 3-5 year price cycle of a x86 farm. Also, if the task is mission critical keep in mind that AS/400 up-time will absolutely destroy Windows, Linux and even industrial Unix systems up-time and those x86 machines will only start to approach AS/400 reliability when you start to farm the x86 machines.
Now if the ERP software your currently using is out of business, or is absoletly prohibitly expensive vs other ERP solutions, then look at all of your ERP options and pick the best one that will work for you and your business regardless of price, platform, or OS. Too many PHB's get sucked into the magical speak that comes out of the guy with the plaid suit and big shiny teeth to see if the software their actually buying will work for them. Make sure that whatever you're going to spend $100,000+ on is really going to do the job that your AS/400 is doing. Period. Call other companies using those solutions, get demos, get all the plaid suit big shiny teeth people in a room and play Corporate ThunderDome. Either way, Hardware wise IBM is the way to go when it comes to hardware and support.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Yup, if you buy an iSeries box you can run i5OS (the new OS/400), AIX, and Linux. In addition the virtualization allows you to set up multiple virtual machines that perform really well. As the parent said, this will allow you to (with a single piece of hardware) move from your current AS/400 solution to a Unix/Linux solution.
What this will not get you is a simple way to move to a windows solution.
I do want to know, are iSeries and Windows your only options?
Oh yeah, another benefit of having an iSeries is that IBM will support both your hardware and software. With windows you'll often get vendors arguing whose fault it is when a problem occurs. But I suppose that's your choice, vender lock-in can have (some) benefits.
First of all, that guy who's recommending switching to Windows? Ignore his advice about everything (IT or otherwise), he's clearly uninformed, or a moron, or both.
The AS/400 (iSeries/i5) is going to do a lot more for you in the long run, with less (no) downtime and far fewer headaches involving security, and things like virii and spyware are a complete non-issue. The new boxes are even better, with the ability to run virtual machines in just about any environment you decide to experiment with, while still running those legacy apps like a champ. If there's any down side at all, it may be harder to find expertise, depending on your area of the world, since it's a low volume machine. But when you do find someone, they'll probably know a lot more than just the AS/400 and bring a lot of other real world experience with them.
What the hell are you doing choosing ERP software for your company?
I'm in a similar position, my current employer is evaluating ERP packages and then I'll get told which one we're going to. We currently run BPCS on AS/400 (iSeries). We're probably going to SAP on AIX using DB/2.
As a dev I don't get to make business decisions. I get to do the tech stuff my employer deems suitable.
As for this Windows/Unix/iSeries question, it should not be yours to make. Your job is to make what they buy work reliably. If can't or don't want to do the job then find another one pronto.
Actually, commands on an AS/400 look like CRTUSRPRF, DLTPF, and so forth. If you can't figure out that's CreaTe USer PRoFile and DeLeTe Physical File, you need to study for maybe about 10 minutes.
Need to do an action? GO VERB. Need to do it to some thing? GO SUBJECT. There is no system simpler to figure out than OS/400.
The latest Slashdot meme.
I've worked with AS/400s quite a bit in the past, and in my experience the damn things
are wicked stable and reliable. You almost can't destroy the things... One place I used to work
had an S/38 (the precursor to the AS/400) that was friggin' ancient and still hummed along like
a champ day in and day out... until we upgraded it to a more modern AS/400. If you could
find the old one in the junkyard still, I bet you could plug it in and IPL it today.
Anyway, with the newer iSeries, it's not like you're locked into some obscure technology
platform if IBM ever decides to kill off OS/400. The newer ones will run Linux
which gives you a nice migration / upgrade path. In fact, you might be well served
to start out running Linux on something, whether or not it's an iSeries... then if your
needs change you can scale up, down or horizontally with much greater ease than if you
had to switch operating systems to switch to a different hardware platform.
With Linux you might have to recompile everything, but it's still just Linux.
Just imagine, you start with Linux on xSeries (x86 boxes), and from there you
can scale horizontally by clustering, and/or scale up to an iSeries or pSeries
or OpenPower box, and ultimately you can scale all the way to a zSeries (mainframe). All without
changing your operating system. That's a pretty strong story, and I'm pretty sure it's
one main reason IBM is pushing Linux so hard.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
I do want to know, are iSeries and Windows your only options?
Unfortunately, yes. About a year before I landed this job, our company started working with a consulting group whose purpose was to help us implement "lean" manufacturing. As a part of the process, it is quite clear our old "green screen" ERP software just won't cut it. Anyway, these guys only know Windows and that's all they recommend.
When I got into the picture just before we sent RFI's out, I got to ask our consultants a few questions. One of them was whether we were considering anything other than Windows-centric solutions. When I asked why not anything AS/400 based, they responded that the only ERP software for the AS/400 was tier-1 solutions like JD Edwards. My boss and I called BS, and found an ERP package for the iSeries that looks to be every bit as good or better than any of Microsoft's offerings (and cheaper too!). So it got included in our RFI's.
I guess what I would like to know then, is there any good reason not to go with an AS/400 based ERP system? I mean, according to everything I've seen in terms of stability and security, i5/OS makes even Linux look insecure and unstable. As this ERP system would consolidate several apps hosted on 3 different servers, downtime would mean a company-wide shutdown. I know you can cluster Windows, but what happens when you get a virus or worm in the network before the AV company updates the definitions? Can you clean it without any server downtime? If so, maybe Windows wouldn't be too bad. But then there's still the issue of 0wnership...
This isn't the sig you're looking for...
Your co-worker is probably talking with younger folks with little or no exposure to the latest versions of the iSeries environment. She probably doesn't know that the administrator can manage the entire system through a graphical interface known as iSeries Navigator. When I mean the entire system, I am also referring to the hardware. In real time, the admin can allocate system resources to the various partitions, etc. The iSeries comes with Apache and Tomcat and is a fully robust web server. It is no longer necessary to use green screen terminals to use the applications, because of iSeries Access for the Web. Instead of a green screen, the users log on through a browser, and have full use the green screen application. With complete honesty, I can report that a friend of mine with zero knowledge of web servers, etc. sat down with the manual and had the server and iSeries Access for the Web up and running in less than 2 hours. If you contact me at pnelson88@comcast.net I can put you in touch with the right people at IBM. One friend there does nothing but assist companies in moving from Oracle to the iSeries.