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Is There Still Racism in IT Hiring Practices?
noahz asks: "Today [now three days ago] in the United States marks Martin Luther King Day, remembering the birthday - and legacy - of the great civil rights leader. It's been over 40 years since his march on Washington, back when IT was still in its infancy and was exclusively a white, male field. But, how much progress has been made in the IT world? I recently had a recruiter tell me that I would have no problem finding a job in the current economy - not because I am enthusastic, well-educated and have good experience - but because I am caucasian - 'white'. This particular recruiter insisted that his years experience has led him to this conclusion - but I wonder: what the collective experience of the Slashdot readership has found?"
Although this does not cover all non white races, business people like to be able to understand who they are talking to. Overwhelmingly upper management (e.g; people that cut the checks) are white.
Thus white people want to hear white people on the other end of the phone. Or more appropriately, native english speakers.
I am not racist but I know that I prefer to call a support line or a consultant that doesn't have to "try" to speak my language.
Many people will not own up to this but the reality is most people would like to hear a female on the end of the phone as well. Is that sexist? Maybe, but it is reality.
White Americans, and Europeans in general, are not very ethnocentric. We tend to be meritocratic, and society has been especaially meritocratic since the 1950s. That means we aren't very racist, either individually or as a society.
We are so non-ethnocentric it is easy to forget it, especially given that some people are continually accusing us of racism.
But, it is always good to make comparisons. E.g. in India or China, who you know, and to whom you are related, is critical. It is hard to get ahead without being in the right group. That's especially true in India.
That's also true -- more true -- in Africa, where tribal association is very important. There are countries where one tribe runs the show -- e.g. Nigeria. Woe unto him born into a weak, powerless tribe, especially if there happens to be oil under your feet.
That's also true in the Arab world. If you are a from a Shiite clan, expect the Sunnis to give you hell. In Iraq, that meant that 20% ran the whole country, because they were Sunni Arabs, and the others were either Kurds, marsh Arabs, Turkmen, Shiites, etc. It is important to keep in mind that in most parts of the world, the religion you worship corresponds to your tribe -- hence this isn't so much sectarian violence, as ethnic violence. Like in Ireland -- Protestants aren't Irish who converted (for the most part) to a different religion, but people who immigrated from Scotland. They are from a different gene pool.
Ireland, due to the conflicts, is more ethnocentric than Great Britain, or America. This is a typical social identity effect: put groups in conflict, and they'll start sorting each other out, picking on the other group and so on. That's natural animal behavior. As a result, if you want to get ahead, you'd better be related to the right crowd.
That's true in Israel too, a very ethnocentric place. You'd better be in the right group, depending on what you want to do. E.g. want to succeed in an area where Sephardim succeed? Better be Sephardi.
I've never seen anything like this in America. I've worked at a number of companies, and always the issue was just, "can you do the work," and not, what genes do you have. Well, not quite: I worked for some Indians, and all the management jobs went to Indians -- but that just proves my point.
It is true that blacks haven't been prevalent among the programmers, but I think isn't explained by racism. This is a very controversial view, but supported along the following reasoning: various things, like height or reaction time are different among different ethnic groups. To the extent that IQ is a hereditable phenomenon, different groups have different average IQs, just as we have different average heights. That explains the outcomes. This is especially true, given all the money the government has poured into trying to get brown and black people to succeed in science (and why didn't they pour money into helping Chinese succeed in basketball?).
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
I think what may be being percieved as racism may not be -- it may be communication preferences. For example, I am not racist. I don't hate anyone for their race. However, I have a strong preference for speaking to someone that can communicate effectively in English. And I think that is where the backlash towards outsourcing came from: companies attempting to save money resulted in frustrated customers, when the customers were perfectly happy before with the service they were recieving. Anyone that has spent time on a tech-support hotline or has tried to get something RMA'ed has probably experienced the "C as in Cali-fornia, F as in Flori-e-duh" sad attempt at American English with the Far East accesents. I think that any field is going to have a degree of rasicm. That is bound to happen. But in IT, with the visability, and the required communication skills, some employers may prefer the "white caucasion male" because at least the 90-year old grandma attempting to use AOL can at least understand him than the "female Indonessian Muslim." Computers frustrate a lot of users, and the non-geek crowd get especially frustrated with them. Why frustrate the users more by having communicate with someone that can't communicate effectively back and still have a non-working computer. Think about it. When it starts to affect the bottom line of a company, and it is not rooted towards race but towards skill, then it may not be racism at all. Now with that said, I have a friend that is a Pakastiani that you wouldn't know is one, because his communication skills are that of a native American. He does a great job in IT and is well liked.
The views expressed are mine own and do not express the views of my employer.
I am not saying that -- on rare occasion -- a qualified white applicant loses to a qualified minority applicant.
What all of these "screw you I know it happens" posters, including you, feel somehow driven to forget about is that reverse situations, in which minority workers are discriminated against and penalised on account of their race, happen all the time. Hell, just google "racism in the workplace" or something similar, and you'll pull up all the newspaper accounts you could dream of.
Meanwhile, I'm sure you would not recognize the hiring of a white applicant over a black one as racism, even when it was. You would explain it as the white guy having connections, being a friend of the boss, having an in with the interviewer because they grew up in the same town or went to the same college. You are incorrect to do so.
You should try talking to black people sometime. Yeah, I know it's tense to talk about race, but the next time you're with a black friend having a beer, ask him what he thinks about the level of racism in American society, and the level he personally experiences as a white collar worker. And tell him what you think. See how he reacts. My guess is that he won't be surprised -- hell, there's an entire wing of the Republican party constructed to catch voters like you -- but he will disagree.
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Yeah? How many black guys were in your computer science classes? In my experience, minorities are the first hired and last laid off. I'm not being a racist or anything here, it's just what I have experienced.
[FromTheMorning]
I will say that you sound like you are making an effort, but in the end, you are still a racist. I would never even imagine stating my race to a prospective employer. You assume that YOU are discriminated against, but discrimination goes every direction. There are very few companies that have official policies against discrimination, with the exceptions of caucasions. Apparently you are not human, because Japanese are human, and you clearly don't consider her to be one of "your" people. I would certainly consider her one of MY people. Unless you mean racists by "your people". Really, you might find life a lot easier if you considered everyone to be "Your People". I know that I don't care what color a person is, but as soon as I hear someone seperating people by their race, I do my best to just avoid them in the future. That is both personally, and professionally.
What if I don't want people in wheelchairs in my establishment? Yes its discrimination but as a private business owner shouldn't I have that choice? If it were a public (and by public I mean either government operated or specifically called public (like the public library)) I would concede the point. But as a private business owner perhaps I want to exclude a certain demographic for whatever reason I choose and in a free society, I would be able to. What recourse would those that I exclude have? They could organize a boycott amongst the non-excluded, picket my business on the public sidewalk, or start a letter/email writing campaign, etc. etc. etc. to get me to change my behavior. Those are acceptable means to an end. Hauling me off to court just so you can squeeze me for some cash + access to a building that you'll probably never go in anyways? Now your infringing on my negative rights (freedom from's) and that's just wrong (the Constitution protects and enumerates our freedom from's).
If you want to be an entitlement bitch, go find some government building that doesn't have certain ADA-acceptable accomodations and I'll support your campaign 110%, but if I don't want you in, STFU, GTFO and STFA.
I feel its fine that private individuals (and by extension their privately (or collectively) owned (as long as the gov't has no shares) business) discriminate based on their morals. I think there would be a lot less violence if people who wanted to discriminate (and take no liberty with that, by discriminate I mean not associate with, I don't mean hang from a tree or some other violent expression) could do so freely. Want to create a master race? Find an under-populated country that you can over-populate with your own followers and go to town. Just don't kill anyone in the process and we'll be fine. I already don't associate with bigots, wife beaters, perverts (and by that, I mean peeping toms and the like), muggers, murderers and the like. By the definition of the law, I am discriminating so by associating with only those I choose to associate with, I have become a criminal, only I guess its more apparent when I put up a sign that says "Friends Only Allowed Inside".
Such a shame indeed.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
He said he was black, not mexican.
sorry, couldn't resist.
They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am