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Secondhand Games Stifle Innovation?

Via GameSetWatch, an article at the Guardian relaying a message from publishers. They say that, though you may be enjoying those second-hand games, they may be forcing you to choke down the sequels that plague the industry. From the article: "'We recognise the secondhand games market is part of the revenue mix, for retailers at least,' said a spokesman. 'However, if it continues to grow, it could potentially starve us of the funds necessary for research and development, and therefore, developers will be less willing to take a risk on new and genre-diversifying titles. It's this creative diversity that makes the games industry so popular, and without sustained funding from new software sales, this could be at risk.'"

15 of 165 comments (clear)

  1. First Rant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The symptoms:
            People are buying piles of second hand games.
            It's cutting into your profits.

    The problem:
            You've set your price-point too high for the duration that your games are enjoyable.

    The solutions:
            Lower your price or
            Make games that people will want to retain longer.

    Bitching that your retailers are against you because they can't make money selling first-hand games is stupid. Retailers adapt to what makes money. If you lower you prices so they can run thicker margins on the new product, they will push your products accordingly.

    This is not rocket science. Open to the pages of your marketing book where they show that setting a jukebox to play a song for a quarter will earn twice the money as one requiring one dollar but playing four songs.

    Read, think, repeat until clued.

  2. 2nd hand games have no devaluation? by PoderOmega · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The interesting issue that I don't see brought up often is the fact that assuming the media remains in tact a video game's quality never reduces over time. Sure the box and manual can get damaged, but let's just assume we are talking about the game itself. Used games will only go down in price because of lack of demand, never because the actually quality of the game changes like most items in the "pre-owned" market does.

    1. Re:2nd hand games have no devaluation? by Z0mb1eman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a way, that's true - that's one way to look at it.

      Another is that a game's quality degrades because:
      - it gradually becomes more and more of a hassle to run it (DOS games? floppies? etc.)
      - the graphics "degrade" - not really, but old games used to engage us with no problems, and the graphics were still amazing every new generation of games... go back a few generations and the graphics just plain look "bad", even though they haven't actually changed
      - gameplay becomes simplistic - yes, it was great at the time, and some games were pioneers and are true classics. Compare the gameplay of Dune II to, say, Starcraft, though... or Wolfenstein to Halflife... plenty of counter-examples, of course, but I'm only comparing equivalent games - "today"'s best games to "yesterday"'s best games in the same genre.

      So in a way I agree that the quality never degrades, but (some) new games are such huge leaps forward that the net effect is the same.

      I'd agree much more with that point of view if it was about music :p

      --
      ClutterMe.com - easiest site creation on the Net. Just click and type.
  3. Just like secondhand CDs, secondhand books... by Kelson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So the argument wasn't ridiculous enough when the RIAA railed against stores selling used CDs, or when book publishers railed against used book stores? Somehow, because they're games instead of books, it magically makes sense now?

    I imagine thrift shops are preventing the clothing industry from innovating, too?

    1. Re:Just like secondhand CDs, secondhand books... by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Somehow, because they're games instead of books, it magically makes sense now?

      In fact, it makes even less sense to me...

      Aren't we buying used games in the first place because somebody who owned the game decided it no longer had value for him, and somebody else decided that the value of the game was lower than the cost of buying it new?

      Now, assuming a company puts out an all-new game based on an innovative premise and with gameplay we hadn't seen before... wouldn't that a) force those who want that experience to buy it new, and b) provide enough value to otherwise second-hand buyers of valueless games that they would now buy a new one?

      In other words, it seems to me that sequelitis is directly responsible for the surge in the used market, and the only way out of it is to produce new and innovative games. It's not the other way around. Developers need to give people a reason why they should buy a new game. Pumping out sequels is just going to do the opposite. (It also has the effect of just dumping a whole bunch of previous series editions into the used marketplace. Why keep Madden 05 when Madden 06 is now out?)

      Just look at the Nintendo DS if you need an example of this. The only solution is to make games that are as fun and unique as possible, and that aren't "updated" on a yearly basis.

    2. Re:Just like secondhand CDs, secondhand books... by miu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There isn't any context, attribution, or even a direct quote - so it is hard to guess exactly what was really said and under what circumstances. What I gather is that some publishers are upset about the fact that retailers are selling second hand copies right next to the new copies. If that is the case I can see their point - who is gonna pay $60 for generic sports game 2006 when a used copy is available for $30 right next to it, but that is an issue they need to take up with retailers and hardly the responsibility of consumers.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
  4. Enter the first sale bypass... by Godeke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's this creative diversity that makes the games industry so popular, and without sustained funding from new software sales, this could be at risk.

    Here is how we will see the proliferation of "activation servers" and the like systems where purchasing a "used" copy of a game simply buys you a coaster. Copyrighted materials (in the US at least, and from the article the EC) are covered under the doctrine of first sale: once a work in "fixed form" is sold, that fixed form is transferable to anyone else by any method desired. The used book, CD and game industries survive only because of this doctrine.

    Activation servers add an additional wrinkle to the mix: you can still legally sell the bits, but the activation code isn't going to work when you take it home. When you complain to the company, they will (correctly) tell you that the code has already been used. Thus, the idea of used games will be a thing of the past. Of course, so will be the idea of tossing an old CD into your machine and expecting it to do anything but say "activation server could not be reached".

    All this will be couched in terms of "the benefit of the consumer" while in reality kicking them in the teeth.

    --
    Sig under construction since 1998.
    1. Re:Enter the first sale bypass... by Eightyford · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's this creative diversity that makes the games industry so popular, and without sustained funding from new software sales, this could be at risk.

      Here is how we will see the proliferation of "activation servers" and the like systems where purchasing a "used" copy of a game simply buys you a coaster. Copyrighted materials (in the US at least, and from the article the EC) are covered under the doctrine of first sale: once a work in "fixed form" is sold, that fixed form is transferable to anyone else by any method desired. The used book, CD and game industries survive only because of this doctrine.

      Activation servers add an additional wrinkle to the mix: you can still legally sell the bits, but the activation code isn't going to work when you take it home. When you complain to the company, they will (correctly) tell you that the code has already been used. Thus, the idea of used games will be a thing of the past. Of course, so will be the idea of tossing an old CD into your machine and expecting it to do anything but say "activation server could not be reached".

      All this will be couched in terms of "the benefit of the consumer" while in reality kicking them in the teeth.



      That's where we consumers come along. We don't buy the software that requires activation. That's it.

  5. No. by vertinox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the games were that good to begin with, people wouldn't have waited til they have become second hand and bought them when they were new. Secondly, if they were really that good of a game then chances are people would be less willing to part awith them for cash, making them harder to buy second hand.

    This is just an exscuse for greed and lack of effort by developers... Truth be told, I bet uninnovative sequels perpetuate second hand retail industry.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  6. They could always go Hollywood... by Guppy06 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... and pay the Senate to make used game sales illegal.

    What bothers me is this:

    "However, if it continues to grow, it could potentially starve us of the funds necessary for research and development, and therefore, developers will be less willing to take a risk on new and genre-diversifying titles."

    This isn't a chicken-or-egg problem, we know new games came before used games. Therefore, this entire cycle was started with new games that had a high degree of suckage, and these high-suckage games were published before the used game industry took off (because, again, new games came first).

    The solution seems obvious: publish good games. The better the game, the less likely the owner will sell it back to the store. And if it's really good, they'll buy the same game two or three times (witness Nintendo's business model on the GBA). But making the "We need to make crap games to pay for good games" argument that Hollywood has been touting for the past 50 years or so is simply going to land them in the same place Hollywood is now.

  7. Call The Waaaaaahmbulance! by NBarnes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh, puh-leeze. The publishers are 'warning us' 'for our own good' than secondhand game sales are 'hurting development'.

    Note: it's not crappy ass games that are hurting you, it's not mindless sequelitis, it's not buggy games that need 15 patches before they arrive in stores, and it's not the fact that Blizzard is eating all your lunches, no, it's those awful secondhand games.

    Suuuuuuuuuuure.

    I buy a lot of used games, since I like not spending huge amounts of cash on new titles. And you know what? I can buy 15 copies of trashy games I know I don't want, but it's often a pain in the ass to find a good used copy of something I actually care about playing, because people don't often sell good games. The secondary market is flooded with older versions of sports games, obsoleted by the industry's own revenue model for sports games, and crap. Cry me a river, EA.

  8. (Seriously, now) Cry me a river, boys... by TechieHermit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, publishers are bent out of shape that games last for years, and we all trade them back and forth in the same way used CDs, tapes, and records have been for decades? They're afraid we're going to stop buying new games because we're buying used ones? They want more money (that goes without saying)?

    Yeah. Cry me a river. Here are my thoughts:

    1. The game industry is making money hand over fist. They may WANT a license to print money, they may feel that all of us gamers should spend all our income on their brand new stuff and never look for a bargain, but tough luck -- the world doesn't work that way. If we all got whatever we wanted, whenever I got lonely or horny I'd clap my hands, yell "Doughnut!" and a gorgeous hottie with an oral fixation would appear. See -- I just clapped. NOTHING! So why should they get whatever fool thing THEY want?

    2. Used games COME FROM SOMEWHERE. They don't just suddenly appear, the Used Game Fairy doesn't bring them around in her "naughty nurse" uniform, and they're not gifts from aliens. Every used game was purchased by someone, brand new, at some point. So, the game publishers DID get paid for them! Their problem is, they're not getting paid for them ANY MORE. Again, too fucking bad. That's life. I'd love it if my ex girlfriend had to come over three times a week and do me, but she doesn't (too damn stubborn).

    3. A PURCHASE IS A PURCHASE. Once we buy our games fair and square, we can sell them to anybody we want to. We can trade them for cigarettes and beer if we feel like it. We can give them to homeless people to use as ninja stars when fratboys annoy them. We can do whatever we like with them. BECAUSE WE BOUGHT THEM, for much more than they're conceivably worth, by the way. All the pissing and moaning in the world won't convince me that once I buy a game, I shouldn't sell it or trade it in for a new one. It's mine, I'll do whatever I want with it.

    4. FINALLY, seriously now, isn't it ridiculous that they're now trying to pretend that it's the used game market that causes game companies to put out derivative dreck? YEAH, I see how that works. It's not that game companies are pushing their developers to exhaustion, outsourcing a lot of their activities, making UNBELIEVABLY shitty movie tie-in games (if you can call them games), and in general, treating the public like they'll buy anything if they put the right face on the package. Oh, no, if sales slow down it must be because all the customers are EVIL! Yeah, we're all just penny-pinching Meanies. I see...

    Well, that's my rant for now. I'll leave you with this thought:

    Do I buy a lot of used games? Yes, I do.

    Do I buy a lot of new games? Well, actually, yes on that one also.

    Am I a freeloader? NO. I spend more money on this crap than most people.

    Do I feel like anyone appreciates my business? NO.

    You know, this stuff isn't that complicated. It's about treating me like a customer, appreciating my business, and giving me good value. If you can't do that, there's nothing you can sell me.

  9. Boo f'ing hoo by Shadarr · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "...if it continues to grow, it could potentially starve us of the funds necessary for research and development"
    To this I say: Welcome to the free market, adapt or die. Don't whinge about how consumers are hurting you by exercising their rights, don't beg for people to buy the new copy to "support the developer". I don't care about you, I don't care if you can put food on your child's table. Make a product that's worth buying at a price that seems fair, and I will buy it.

    Part of the rise in used sales has to be due to the rising price of new games. I am not willing to spend $50 or more on a game unless I know, ahead of time, that it's one of the best games ever made. And it had also better have more than 10 hours of gameplay in it. Otherwise, I'll wait till the price drops or I see a used copy.

    There's a huge difference in terms of impulse spending between $30 and $50. If I have the choice between a $25 used copy and a $30 new copy, I'll buy new. Over $30 and I'll try to find it cheaper somehow. If you think you can't sell your game for $30 and make a profit, then you need to think about what you can offer as a value add, either as something you can't get with the used copy or something that will encourage people to not sell theirs in the first place. If you want to compete and be successful in the marketplace, innovate. Don't bitch at your customers for not giving you enough money. Capitalism is not charity. If your game isn't selling it's because you didn't make something worth buying new.
  10. I'm Sorry by HunterZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but it's NOT MY PROBLEM. If the game industry can't get its act together and put some games on the shelves that are actually FUN, then I'll stick to older games that ARE.

    Consumers don't owe the industry any favors, especially after years of being treated like:
    - criminals via abusive copy protection mechanisms and unfair return policies
    - sheep via releasing non-innovative games over and over again, with poor support and quality control

    Also, explain this:
    - If the innovative games aren't out there, then how the HELL is buying the CRAP that *IS* on the shelves going to help any?

    Answer: IT WON'T.

    - How will buying the CRAP that IS on the shelves going to encourage publishers to market games that aren't CRAP?

    Answer: IT WON'T.

    --
    Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
  11. R.I.P. by therage96 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I miss the days when a business that no longer provided quality products to their customers slowly faded away and went out of business. These days, we have the RIAA, MPAA, and now the game industry trying to point the finger for their lackluster sales at everyone but themselves. Not only that, they sue their own customers (and brag about it in the news!) and if that wasn't enough, they line of the pockets of politicians everywhere to pass laws basically designed to keep them in business.

    Apple on the other hand seems to be actively listening to their customers and gives them what they want, rather than what the aforementioned companies do, which is try to tell us (the consumers) what we should want, and after they have watched another failure, sue us for not liking their products.

    /rant off