Linus Says No GPLv3 for the Linux Kernel

HenchmenResources writes "Late Wednesday a posting from Linus Torvalds appered on the the Linux Kernel Mailing List. In it Linus states that the Linux Kernel will remain under the GPLv2. Types Linus,"The "version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version" language in the GPL copying file is not - and has never been - part of the actual License itself.""

Comments

What v3 does he mean?

[Renegade Lisp]

GPLv3 hasn't even been released yet. The public discussion on what it will be like only started a few days ago. And yet Linus seems to be categorically certain that he won't even consider using that license? There must be a lot of bad feelings between him and the FSF (not that I couldn't understand this from some of the recent events, but I always thought Linus was a very diplomatic and friendly character who would not be easily offended).

What is that thing about developers having to turn over their private keys? I don't think anything that stupid is even considered for GPLv3.

I wish there would be a rational and friendly discussion. Is that too much? Have we come thus far?

Re:What v3 does he mean?

[lawpoop]

"If a GPLv3ed program cannot run without a specific private key, that private key must be made available. That's all the license says. Developers are not required to disclose private keys that they use to sign code."

This simple, clear statement should be at the beginning. I think if you argue about this in the future, you would help your case to lead with this, and then back it up afterwards.

Re:What v3 does he mean?

[drakaan]

The article you linked to didn't say that Linus has no problem with DRM in the kernel. It said that he has no problem with people using the kernel for whatever purpose they like, which is a vastly different viewpoint.

It sounds like his gripe with the GPLv3 is that it is imposing restrictions on what modifications or contributions can be made, which is not the same agnostic view as in previous versions.

The idealist (RMS) and the engineer (Linus) are definitely at a point of contention on this issue...it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Re:What v3 does he mean?

[ZoneGray]

It's one thing to assign copyright to FSF, quite another to assign it a random non-profit organization. FSF has some history and widespread recognition, and one can be reasonably confident that they'll survive and remain true to their vision.

On the other hand, if somebody set up a non-profit to create the nextest bestest portal application, there's a real chance that the non-profit org could go bankrupt, regardless of the sincerity of their intention. Or the org could undergo a leadership change and a change of philosophy. If you had assigned your code to them, it could easily wind up in a proprietary commercial application. The GPL would protect existing releases, but anybody who held all the copyrights could update and re-release under a proprietary license.

Even if the terms of assignation were written to preclude this, such provisions might not survive bankruptcy.

Don't see how this is a story.

[Anonymous Coward]

This comes as no great surprise. How could Linus convert it to v3, even if he wanted to? There are thousands of individual copyright holders to contact (not everyone released it under "any later version"). For some of them, that's going to require a seance and/or JLH, since they are dead now. I consider this a non-story, personally, we knew this was going to happen before v3 was even announced.

DRM, private keys

[everphilski]

Discussion over GPLv3 has been going on for quite some time now even though the draft has just now emerged. He has mentioned a few things, one is that he has no problem with DRM in the kernel, whereas GPLv3 is Anti-DRM. Also Linus opposed having his developers have to make their private keys available, which was stated in the article.

I think he's thought it though, and I think the decision makes sense. No one says you have to increment from GPLv2 to GPLv3, it is at your option. RMS make the license more restrictive, too restrictive, therefore Linus said no.

Re:DRM, private keys

[mrchaotica]

RMS make the license more restrictive, too restrictive...

The fundamental intent of the license hasn't changed. The only thing this does is close the loophole whereby vendors could technically release source code that runs on their device, but if anyone actually tried to exercise their rights under the GPL by modifying the code (i.e. the entire point of it being Free Software in the first place) the device would refuse to run the code because the checksum/key wouldn't match. The GPL v.3 just adds text explicitly saying that device makers must allow this, where it was only implied (i.e. without legal weight) before.

Re:I don't get it...

[Concern]

OK, I guess I see where the confusion comes from, but it still seems just like confusion. How on earth could this clause require Linus to release his private keys? There is no DRM in linux. No encryption or authorization codes are required to install and/or execute the work, and no decryption codes are necessary to access or unseal... you get the idea.

Is Linus on crack?

Re:Linus does not trust Stallman

[fitten]

I'm with you on this. I distruct Richard Stallman for the same reasons. I personally think he's gone off on a side road of his original mission. Originally, it was to provide a bunch of software that was open to all and protected by copyright. Now, it seems his mission is to attempt to destroy anything that isn't open to all and protected in the ways he wants to define it. The first is setting up a safe haven for intellectual ideas and the like. The second is waging a war. I don't want a war and have no time for it. I prefer to live and let live and have no problem with OSS and proprietary software coexisting. Stallman no longer wants to coexist so I've not supported his views for some time.

Re:Maybe Linus doesn't LIKE what GPL3 requires?

[mpcooke3]

This license is less free than others because of the new provisions. I predict that the new wording will drive more new projects to BSD style licensing.

heh. That depends on what you mean by free:

A) Free as in free to do what you like with. eg, GPLv2 is more "free" in this sense because businesses have more "freedom" to DRM or patent encumber software under this license.

B) GPLv3 has more restrictions in place to guarantee that software licensed under it is not encumbered by patents or DRM restrictions. Thus it guarantees that DRM and patent restrictions don't restrict people "freedom" to use the software.

BSD style is more free in terms of (A) and less free in terms of (B). For example I am "Free" to contribute secretly patented code to your BSD project and then take you to court for patent infringement when you distribute said software. Is that a freedom you intended to grant me or would you actually have preferred to use a more restrictive license after all?

cost vs. benefits

[adrianmonk]

OK, so it appears Linus has decided that Linux will not be converted over to GPL v3. Lots of people have given philosophical opinions about this, but what if we step back and look at it from a purely practical point of view? What are the costs of converting to GPL v3, and what benefits would it provide to the Linux maintainers and users?

Possible benefits:

• GPL v3 prohibits DRM. Does this really make a difference with Linux? Linux doesn't have DRM features anyway, so what does it matter what the license says? I suppose it might prohibit a few things that could be done on top of Linux using DRM, and that might be good, but it seems like a minor effect, so at best this has a minor positive effect in favor of a cause which isn't directly related to the central purpose of Linux.
• Keeping up to date. Yes, I suppose there is some small benefit in being on the latest version of the GPL just to avoid being out of date, but personally I reject the idea that everybody ought to always be on the latest version of everything. You should use what works.
• Make Richard Stallman happy. Doesn't seem like a major goal of Linux.

That's pretty much it as far as the positives for Linux, as far as I can tell. Now, what about the negatives?

• Redefinition of "user". As I understand it, GPL v3 says if you are using something over the network, you're still a user, and if that software is modified, it's no longer a private modification and the source to the changes has to be made available. This would appear to mean that if someone is running a public web server on a Linux system, they will now have to make any of their changes to Linux public. That's unlikely to happen, but it could affect some sites in that they wouldn't be able to upgrade and bring their changes forward. Probably a minor issue, though.
• Copyrights. As others have said, Linus doesn't hold the copyrights; the contributors do. So it's a huge hassle to get that all converted to GPL v3.

So what is the bottom line? Converting offers basically no major advantage. GPL v2 is just as good as GPL v3 for the purposes of Linux. And, converting is a huge hassle. So, rather than looking at why Linus isn't converting the kernel over, why don't we ask this question: why should it be converted over? There doesn't seem to be any kind of compelling advantage.

My guess is that the same thing is going to apply to lots of other projects. Converting is a great big hassle, and it doesn't offer any big advantage, so people just won't bother.

Re:Linus does not trust Stallman

[starseeker]

"Now, it seems his mission is to attempt to destroy anything that isn't open to all and protected in the ways he wants to define it."

I rather doubt that. I think he is trying to fight the creation of an environment where free software is either illegal to run or technically impossible to run. Both are quite possible. After all, what good is software with no hardware to run it on? Stallman is right to worry about that point.

Stallman has ALWAYS considered non-free software immoral. He is "leading by example," so to speak. The problem is the hardware side is more difficult to handle, since fab equipment for chips is not a simple or inexpensive proposition.

I don't like the GFDL because of its invariant sections (primarily) and so in that regard I disagree with the approach he and the FSF have taken, but on the whole they seem to be facing up to some very unplesant possibilities and trying to put roadblocks across their ever being implemented. I'm reminded of two Lord of the Rings quotes:

"It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two."

"Those without swords can still die upon them."

Stallman is doing exactly what he has always done - respond to the threats as they become apparent. His approach to patents is another step in the same direction.

To paraphrase a sig I saw somewhere: "it's only paranoia if they AREN'T actually out to get you." Like security, license writers should be paranoid about threats to their intent. It's just too expensive to try hashing things out in court.

Re:How to force disclosure of private keys

[_xeno_]

Nice try, but it wouldn't work. You don't have legal rights to Linus' key. Section 12 states that if you cannot legally meet the obligations of the license (in this case, giving out Linus' key), you cannot distribute the code at all.

Since you can't force Linus to give up his key (it's under his copyright, and there's no obligation for him to give it up under the GPLv3), you simply can't distribute your embedded device to anyone with the GPLv3ed software included. Doing so would be a violation of the GPLv3.

The only time that you would have to give up a key is if you distribute the code in such a way that a key is required for custom modifications to work. Trying to do so using a key you don't have rights to falls prey to Section 12, meaning you can't distribute the software at all.

Re:Which is why HURD will never see the light of d

[jonadab]

> People yield code. I was replying to the statement that the Linux kernel is more popular
> with both individuals and companies because it is more flexible (from a copyright
> standpoint) than HURD.

No.

Linux is more popular than HURD because at certain critical points in history it was "working" and "ready" for definitions of "working" and "ready" that could not really be applied to HURD at the time. Basically, Linux was in the right place at the right time. HURD never showed up to the party, and there was a licensing lawsuit connected with BSD at a particularly critical point in time which left it just a little behind in just the wrong ways at just the wrong time, allowing Linux to get "ahead" in terms of mindshare and popularity in the developer community. Consequently, there was a several-month time window, at a particularly important time in history (right about when a lot of college undergrads were first getting net access) when if you wanted a freely-available, freely-modifiable, freely-redistributable operating system, Linux was _the_ obvious choice. That gave it a leg up, got a lot of people involved with improving it, and made it the leading and most popular free OS. Nothing has yet managed to unseat it from that position.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the FSF's policies haven't hampered HURD development. They likely have. What I'm saying is that that is not the key important reason why Linux is ahead of HURD (both in terms of popularity and development cycle). The key reason is because Linus had working, usably complete code at an important time when the FSF (in terms of a kernel) did not.

If the timing had worked out differently, the HURD might have been in the leading position, in spite of the FSF's (admittedly rather strict) copyright policies. It is notable that a number of the FSF's *other* projects, despite said policies, are leading implementations in their respective niches, because those projects were finished to the degree they needed to be and working to the degree they needed to be when they needed to be. Emacs for instance was there enough and working enough (for _most_ of the folks who wanted an Emacs, albeit not for Lucent) that XEmacs is just another, somewhat less popular alternative, rather than completely eclipsing Gnu Emacs as Linux has done to HURD.