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Would You Quit Over Patents?

PatentThis asks: "Like a large part of the Slashdot community, I have a problem with software patents. However, I work at a company where they are the norm, and are a major indicator of our performance. So far (over the past 18 months), I've managed to avoid patent work, but that will probably have to change this year. It's an otherwise great job, and I don't look forward to going back on the job market. Do you feel strongly enough about the patent war to give up your job? Should I try to obtain Conscientious Objector status?"

23 of 155 comments (clear)

  1. Why ask us by ShamusYoung · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Only you know what your values are. (Don't you?) How much do they mean to you? Life is often a choice between comfort and applying one's principles. How you choose defines the strength of your character. That isn't some platitude. That's the way it is. Good luck to you.

    --
    --This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
    1. Re:Why ask us by thepotoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      why not ask us? Because maybe, just maybe, someone on here will make a really insightful comment which will change his mind one way or the other. Obviously, this person is having a hard time deciding. Asking slashdot will accomplish a couple of things:
      1) Could help him change his mind
      2) Helps raise awareness about software patents.
      I mean, seriously. The point of ask slashdot isn't to have half a million people help one person solve his tiny little problem. It's to help raise awareness about issues, and, if someone else has this problem come up in the future, the discussion we have here could help provide some background information.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
  2. Oh not again by LordNimon · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Here we go again ... another loser who has a problem with something at work and thinks that whining on Slashdot is going to make the world all better for him.

    Listen dude, you really have two choices: continue working there under the conditions that management has dictated, or quit. That's it! Trust me, there's no secret formula or magic word you can say that will make your company into a perfect place to work. And here's the kicker: if you do quit and get another job, there will be something at your new job you won't like either! <sarcasm> Oh no, what are you going to do!?!?!!?!? </sarcasm>

    --
    And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
    To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    1. Re:Oh not again by jessecurry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think that you missed the point of the post, he's not so much whining, but looking for advice. Perhaps someone else in this technocentric community we call /. has encountered the same problem and has a better solution than your "stay or go", if that's the case maybe he can form a solid base from which to maneuver around the problem and surpass it.
      Personally I think the direct approach is always best, take some time to sit down with your bosses(off the clock) and discuss your views; maybe you'll find that your objection to patents has no solid basis and is just fueled by the general ideas expressed within the tech community, maybe you'll convince your bosses that patents are bad, maybe you'll come to a consensus and they'll allow you to work in a way that is comfortable, or maybe they'll tell you that you need to work within their rules.
      Whatever the outcome, you'll never know until you open up dialog. Don't skate around the issue, have a spine and get right to it.

      --
      Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
    2. Re:Oh not again by PatentThis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is hardly a request for advice, as there is not enough info about PatentThis' situation for anyone to give one.

      There are two reasons I didn't go into too much detail. One, the editors are unlikely to publish my life story. Two, for reasons that I hope are obvious, I'm trying to keep a modicum of anonymity, at least for now. People in my office read Slashdot. Surprise.

      At most, he wants to hear about similar cases (yeah, good luck sorting through /. posts for people who actually faced your situation, dude!) but guess what, that's not too helpful.

      Oddly enough, the most helpful posts so far were from people in similar situations. That's part of what I was after. I'm also interested in the general consensus (if there is such a thing) of how much weight the Slashdot crowd puts on these issues - it's a forum where people can wag their fist at Microsoft with no ill consequences, but what I want to know is, would you still do it if your job was on the line? Do you (not "you" specifically, but "you" in the broad sense) oppose patents (or whatever) in principle, or are you willing to make serious changes to your life to back it up? 'Cause at the moment, I don't know, either for myself or anyone else around here (except maybe RMS and PJ). I don't care if you can't solve my specific problem (and you're totally right, you can't), tell me where your threshold is. I'm interested.

  3. What do you value? by JanneM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's more important to you - your principles or your job?

    If you are principally against the idea of software patents, and yet work on applying and shoring up new ones, then no, there is no way around it - you're breaking your own principles. It is much like a pacifist having a job designing anti-personnel grenades, a PETA member working as a furrier, or a fundamentalist christian working on the production line for the day-after pill.

    You don't have an "out"; you'll have to choose. Which, is of course up to you.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  4. move on... by moochfish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your employer pays you to do your job. If your job is to do something you don't like, find a new job. I hardly doubt a "Conscientious Objector status" is something you can reasonably expect to get. Either way, it looks like you should be looking for a new job if you're really going to try to make a stand against the way your company operates.

  5. scale your outrage based on expected impact by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    most patents are crap and are never enforced.

    if you are about to patent some linux kernel thingy that got snuck in w/o linus knowing, sure you should raise a stink about that and not sign the patent paperwork.

    but if its a patent on something ridiculously narrow or not actually useful then just go along.

    if you want to quit, go ahead, but i suspect if you think real hard there are probably a couple other reasons making you think about quitting, not just patents. quit or don't quit based on the whole package. focusing on one issue is simpleminded.

  6. Here's a thought.... by countach · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Here's a thought - do your job, but do it REALLY well. Research all the prior art and don't apply for anything with a hint of prior art. Make the system that you hate, at least work as well as possible. And THEN if they try to make you apply for a patent with prior art, you can pull out your ethics stick.

  7. If i were in your position, I would prepare Plan B by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That is, I would hold on to the job for now, but start searching for another one right away.

    It would be the best thing to do for now, because when the time comes and you're told to do something you have a moral problem with (in this case software patents) you won't depend on it for your survival, because you prepared a backup plan.

    Otherwise you might end up frustrated doing something you're against, and you'll want to quit but won't be in the right mood to convince someone else to hire you. This is one big fucking social trap, why do you think most people end up doing things they don't like? Don't fall for it, prepare plan B before you need it.

  8. my advice by kebes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Many of the slashdot replies amount to "why are you asking us?" (with varying levels of rudeness) It's true that we cannot answer this question for you. Only you can decide whether your anti-patent principles are stronger/more important than easy employment.

    That having been said, I would say that if you're considering leaving over this issue, then you should try a few other things first. For instance, consider talking to your boss and saying that you do not agree with patents, hence you are a bad choice to work on those projects (you won't perform optimally). The worst that could happen is they fire you (in which case you take your severance money and go get a job you like better). But if your boss is reasonable, they will re-assign you or have others do those duties. Make it clear that this is not because you are lazy or don't like the tedium of patents, but rather because you do not agree with them. This may get you into hot water if the company's bread-and-butter is patents, but so be it.

    Of course, if management is not receptive (or your boss is not the type of person to respond well to honest disclosures of that type), then you have a harder choice: say nothing and write patents, or go find other work.

    As I said, I think if you're seriously considering quitting then you should explore other (slightly less extreme) options. Good luck.

  9. Be careful with that... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... is simply: If I don't do this, will someone else do it?

    Many crimes have happened because of this way of thinking. The right thing to do is say "no", and if someone else does it, at least you won't have to sleep with it hammering your conscience.

  10. You need to clarify your reasoning. by subreality · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Exactly what is your objection to software patents based on?

    I object to our current implementation of software patents. I think they stifle real innovation more than they promote it. The problem is in the patent system, in two areas: A) you cannot possibly know if what you're doing is already patented without an unreasonable amount of research due to huge numbers of broad, vague patents, which you cannot tell without taking them to court if they'll apply to you or not; B) Many of them last too long for the fast pace of the software world.

    Yet I work for a company that generates a lot of software patents. I don't think what we do is evil. We are investing a lot of money in R&D, and inventing things, and I don't think it's bad for us to want to reap our profits from that work. We're making tons of money doing our own legitimate business, not trying to sue other companies. That's exactly what patents *should* do.

    So what's your objection? Do you object to the very idea of software patents? Don't quit your job. That won't do anything to end software patents. It'll just cause a minor rearrangement in who ends up patenting what. Instead, get involved in patent reform.

    On the other hand, if your company is one of the evil ones generating patents to try to milk money from other companies, quit. Not because they want you to work on patents, but because your company's business is evil.

    1. Re:You need to clarify your reasoning. by bit01 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We are investing a lot of money in R&D, and inventing things, and I don't think it's bad for us to want to reap our profits from that work. We're making tons of money doing our own legitimate business, not trying to sue other companies. That's exactly what patents *should* do.

      Stop pretending that patents are necessary for your company to make a profit. Most businesses have no patents and get along just fine. Ideas are copied and adapted continuously. That's business.

      So what's your objection? Do you object to the very idea of software patents? Don't quit your job. That won't do anything to end software patents.

      Yes it will. It will make more people aware that if they want to hold onto a good programmer they'd better start thinking seriously about whether patents on balanbce are a good idea. Holding onto good people is one of the most important things a company can do to be profitable and if those people are giving them the finger they're going to do something about it.

      It'll just cause a minor rearrangement in who ends up patenting what.

      No. It'll raise awareness of the harm that patenting is causing and cost the company some money to find a replacement. With luck they'll recover that money by firing the lawyer who suggested that patents were a good thing.

      Instead, get involved in patent reform.

      Get involved in patent reform. Full stop.

      ---

      Like software, intellectual property law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.

  11. Re:The question you *really* want to ask yourself. by Morty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I strongly disagree. If you think something is wrong, don't do it. Just because someone else is willing to do it in your place does not excuse you. Following moral principles is not just about changing the world, it's about making sure that you don't do something wrong that taints you, your honor, and your self-respect. Even if you can't stop the action, if you really feel that patents are wrong, you shouldn't participate.

    If your boss asks you to shoot someone, and you know that if you don't, you will be fired and a willing co-worker will do the shooting instead, do you think it's right for you to do the shooting? If you think patents are morally wrong, then the difference is solely a matter of degree. Don't taint yourself, your honor, and your self-worth by doing something you think is wrong.

    Regardless of your decision today, someday, you will leave your current job. Will you take your self-respect with you?

    Note that I, personally, am not convinced that software patents are morally wrong. But I have been in similar situations with other moral dilemmas, and have drawn my line in the sand.

    [Of course, these kinds of decisions are relatively easy for people with lots of savings, a spouse who works, and no dependents. People who have kids and who live in dire financial straits have to make somewhat harder decisions, weighing the degree of moral repugnance against the risk to their dependents. Shooting someone is very wrong, even weighed against a job that feeds the kids, while software patents might be more tolerable.]

  12. Parent isn't flamebait by karlto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At the risk of getting the same treatment, mod parent up!

  13. Re:Refuse by tacocat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bullshit! Pump up the patents as much as you possibly can. Patent air!

    It's only through rampant absurdity can you get anyone to recognize that something needs to be done. Otherwise it isn't bad enough.

  14. Re:instead of turning tail and running by grcumb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I couldn't agree more. If you have value in the company, and it's work that you otherwise enjoy, then you might find the right environment to make positive change.

    I remember back in '98, trying to talk the owner of a company I was working for into using FOSS tools as the foundation for our software apps. He kept asking me, "But... what do we own?" He never really did get it, though we did move all our servers to Linux and pushed a lot of our development work onto Linux boxes. What I really appreciated, though, was that he and the COO gave me a good two hours of their time to make my case, and though they didn't do everything I suggested, we did reach a compromise that improved our efficiency and our work environment.

    Likewise, I and two other staff at another company worked with the owners to re-write the standard employment contract to allow for the GPL and FOSS-related 'IP ownership isses'.

    The patent situation might prove a little more intransigent, though, because you seem to view it as a showstopper. Nonetheless, if you feel you're in the right position to do something about it, then see if you can change the policy. If you and your employer reach a workable compromise, then fine.

    If you find that you cannot stomach the thought that you're contributing to an unethical or immoral situation, then you need to decide how to explain that to management in a way that makes it clear that his company has lost a valuable employee because of its policies. Ideally, you'll do it in such a way that they won't be glad to see the back of you. 8^)

    All of this requires of course that you respect the management at that company, that they respect you, and that they're not so huge that they can't reconsider a fundamental policy such as this. I suspect that the latter will probably not be true, but you're the one who needs to judge that.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  15. Don't be silly by alienw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't be silly. Protesting patents by quitting your job just makes you look like an idiot. Like them or not, patents are a required business tool and your company would be stupid not to use them. You can't just avoid getting patents, unless you want to be out of business.

  16. Re:"Conscientious Objector status" by PatentThis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That would be funnier if it wasn't true. :(

  17. Don't be a fundamentalist by Chilles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whatever you do, think about it on a case by case basis. Sure, a one-click patent is bad, and a patent on a method and apparatus for keeping count of the number of steps in a loop (the i in for(i=a;ib;i++) is bad.

    But actually, when you (or I at least) think about it, a patent that covers some very complicated very specific software work, while possibly not very open-source friendly, is a lot less bad. If your company spends a lot of money developing something truly original and very useful, patenting it might make sense, and you might want to reconsider leaving your cool job where you get to do truly innovative software work.

    In the same vein, you should also consider why your company patents their software work. The place I work mainly patents stuff for defensive reasons. If we don't patent some of the stuff we invent somebody else might, and might possibly be a litigious bastard and try to sue us over the stuff we've been doing for years. I personally think that type of patenting is ok, and as soon as my company starts using our patents to go after companies that are not obviously copying our work I'd leave.

    What I'm saying is that you should consider not just the fact that they're patenting software, but also what type of software they're patenting, why, and what they're doing with the patents.

  18. Re:Refuse by prodangle · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Right now, the legal system allows these patents. The only way your company can protect itself is to use them - if they don't then someone else might. If the company doesn't get patents, it is acting against the interests of its shareholders, and also against the interests of employees, since it is failing to use a method of protection made available by the legal system.

    I don't believe that software patents are a good idea, but if I developed anything patentable at work, I'd feel comfortable having my name put on the patent.

    Dan Bricklin, the author of Visicalc, has written a thoughtful piece on his views on software patents.

    That said, I also feel that no matter how much you might feel that patents don't work for the software industry, and how much you may take up the torch to change the law, it is the law today and a fact of programming life as much as Microsoft, the instruction set of the machine we write for, the turning of the century number, and the need to pay for food. Ignoring them won't make them go away, nor protect you from those that do not have the same beliefs.
  19. They are doing what's smart by szembek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they weren't patenting their software I would be more upset. While you may disagree with the software patent system in the US, the fact is it exists, and all of your competitors are patenting their software. So if the company you worked for did not get patents, they would get destroyed. Until the patent system changes, you have to PATENT EVERYTHING to cover your own ass if nothing else. Even if you don't plan on suing for infringement, still get patents!

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    nothing