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Torvalds Explains Dislike For GPLv3
Joe Barr writes "Linus Torvalds explains in three recent posts why he doesn't care for the DRM restrictions in GPLv3, and he has never been one to hold back. From his commentary: 'I _literally_ feel that we do not - as software developers - have the moral right to enforce our rules on hardware manufacturers. We are not crusaders, trying to force people to bow to our superior God. We are trying to show others that co-operation and openness works better.' NewsForge has the complete text of all three posts available." We discussed his initial reaction to GPL3 at the end of last month. NewsForge is a sister site to Slashdot.
Now, there should be provisions for expiration of DRM concurrent with copyright and whatnot
Yeah, but there never will be. That's the problem of DRM.
DRM lets content producers legislate arbitrary terms. Copyright law becomes pretty much irrelevent, because the software dictates the terms, and DMCA gives those terms the force of law.
DRM completely eliminates the balance of Copyright law, because it gives content producers, who have an incentive to control every possible aspect of how their work is used, a blank check to do so.
Linus seems to walk in world all his own. Somehow he seems to think that we can vote with our dollars to force the hardware makers to cater for our non-drm needs. Right.
Has he got some other figures on linux use? It is already hard enough to get hardware makers to support linux besides closed source software like windows. But for hardware makers to develop non-drm hardware for just the linux market is insane. Linux is Linux because it runs on cheap easily available hardware. Specialist hardware or worse having to make you own would kill Linux fast.
What he maybe doesn't get that DRM isn't a analog state. It is binary. You either have it or you don't. Oh, and at the moment, we don't. We got a sorta DRM0.1 at the moment. FULL DRM will be a beast few can imagine. Certainly Linus doesn't seem capable. Stallman is capable.
FULL DRM means that ALL hardware and ALL software in your entire computer will be DRM aware. Hardware DRM will not work with NON-DRM software and/or NON-DRM hardware.
For DRM to realize its full potential EVERY piece of your computer must be DRMed. The motherboard, the CPU, the memory, the buses, the cables, the monitor, the speaker, etc etc. It cannot have a single open piece of hardware because the moment you have that the entire DRM chain becomes useless. It is the old argument against DRM that you will always still be capable of capturing the out put of any DRM device. As long as you can hear/see it you can recapture data no matter how it was protected before.
Que the old story of Vista requiring DRM monitors. if you don't then you could simply hookup a DVI cable to the output and put in a video capture device and instantly avoid any DRM measure.
Will Vista really do this? probably not, as I said before we don't have full DRM yet. We probably won't have it in Vista either. But it is coming unless we stop it now.
It is difficult to constantly be paranoid and think that behind every wintel move there must be an evil scheme but can we afford to be wrong?
Then there is Linus defence of DRM namely signing RPM packages. Well yeah, signing them makes it secure but what is that saying again? He who trades his freedom for security soon will have neither? Something like this.
We could have the security of knowing who wrote the software we run OR we can have the freedom to write and run our own software. Not both. Your choice.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
It is commonly argued here that RMS and FSF are out-of-touch crusaders to be marginalized when considering how really to get software written. I disagree.
Torvald's kernel and the community that support it are quite remarkable, and I wish to take nothing away from them. However, they would not exist if not for gcc and a host of other tools that themselves would simply not exist were it not for Stallman. He was savvy enough to see the creation of these tools; part of this savvy manifested itself in the GPL which demands quid-quo-pro from users of free software.
Now you can imagine a world in which we all just gave away our efforts, and you can imagine a world in which this benevolency resulted in a societal revolution in which open-source (but not necessarily free) software thrived. I can never prove that such a world might not have evolved, but the world as it actually exists has been heavily shaped by Stallman's efforts.
Stallman is certainly not irrelevant in the history of software. I would hesitate to dismiss him as irrelevant to the future.
RMS started Free software because of an incident involving a buggy printer, and not being able to fix the driver.
with DRM'ed hardware that problem reappears:
1) buggy GPL'ed driver
2) you fix the driver
3) oops, you can't actually install your fixed driver
Now do you see the problem?
Smart guy, but can't see the big picture outside his own specialist niche. This isn't a dig, it's an observation,and I have seen it many times with brilliant people I know. If the software patents and DRM goons had had their way back before he wanted to build a minix/unix replacement, he wouldn't have been allowed legally to do most of what he did. Heck, we would barely have affordable functioning home computers either.
I really like the idea of a new GPL that goes farther than the last one in making sure freedom and openness becdomes the norm and not the exception. If we can't get rid of software patents, we can use the fact they exist against that concept. It's sad but you can't remove the legal aspects to coding, so might as well use what ammo and tools are available to counter the threat that patents and DRM clearly are.
Because to the extent that your computer is an extension of your mind, DRM is a "restraining bolt" that determines what you can or cannot say or think about, and its application is almost entirely in the hands of a powerful few. Even if it was never abused (and that's a huge if), the idea of somebody else having the final say over what you are allowed or not allowed to think is a disturbing thought.
(Analogy: imagine someone had invented a pill that kept people from thinking about molesting children, and that they wouldn't let anyone move to their town unless they agreed to take that pill. Would you feel comfortable agreeing to that, even though it was for a good cause? What if you knew the pill could easily be altered in the future to, say, force people to vote for a particular political party? Remember, once you've moved to the new town, you'll have to either accept any additional pills they decide to require in the future, or pack up and move to another town again... which might be very inconvenient for you, especially if there are no longer any "pill-free" towns nearby)
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Not really. A more appropriate action would be to develop a different way to pay content creators than trying to map the analogy of physical items made out of molecules onto abstract concepts made from pure information.
This whole scheme was a kludge when it was invented a couple of centuries ago, but it worked OK so long as there were only a couple of printing presses in each city. It really started getting strained when technologies such as photocopiers and tape recorders became available to the public. It almost broke down totally with the availability of hard drives and the Internet to transmit copies. Now, with the world moving towards the sale of content with no media at all, the concept is becoming absurd. There's no physical media left at all on which to map the physical property analogy.
Trying to simulate the physical object mapping with pure encryption and software algorithms is like trying to hold together jello with rubber bands. It's not going to work unless the government takes away your right to own a general-purpose computing device without encrypted links to your monitor and speakers. I assert that the freedoms that give you the right to own unhindered computer hardware are more important than the economic benefits that content producers would get from unbreakable DRM schemes. I don't care if the amount of content created and the number of producers the economy supports would be significantly decreased. Locking down every information handling tool available to us is just not worth it because the same DRM tools that content creators use to ensure payment will undoubtedly also be used by governments and private parties to monitor, snoop and control all of the information that we use.
DRM will come and go. It's not the real threat you think it is. I have now been programming and dealing with hardware for about 20 years now. Just enough time to see the same things happen over and over again. Many makers will use DRM to lock you into bying there stuff. Consumers will get pissed off and stop bying that stuff.
I used to fret and worry about IBM locking down PC hardware so customers would end up locked in an IBM world. Remember that bus that IBM made, microchannel or something, that was suppose to be better than ISA. IBM was going to charge big time for board makers in liscence fees to make cards for these slots. Well along came a small company called Compaq and gave consumers what they wanted. Over the years I have watched this same scenerio play out over and over again with HD interfaces, Video cards, data file formats, you name it. Each time the open market solution natuarly won.
The consumer market wants cheap and hassle free solutions whether they have the DRM label or not. If John Doe can't plug his USB key and save a file in 10 seconds without sacrificing serious money he will go to a providor that will. Linus is right, vote with your dollars. In the ever competitive hardware market, where margins are as thin as tissue paper, some one will be there to cater to what you want.
Computer hardware and software is ultimately a buyers market. Let the market punish dumb hardware and software makers that restrict your use.
Has anybody here actually read and understood the anti-DRM provisions of GPLv3, or are you all just spouting off?
Section Three -- the anti-DRM provision -- basically says that any work covered by the GPLv3 is not to be construed as a copy-prevention measure. In other words, if some mis-worded legislation makes it onto the statute books -- specifically legislation which apparently makes an act illegal, ignoring that a copyright holder might well have given permission for such an act -- GPLv3 3 is there to make it quite clear that the copying is being carried out with the blessing of the author.
It also ensures that if software subject to GPLv3 is recorded on some medium which attempts to restrict copying, that any user who is forced to bypass anti-copying restrictions in order to perform a legitimate act for which permission had already been granted, has a legal defence for doing so.
Which of the above don't you agree with?
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
and I can't find a single instance of people standing on each other's shoulders
Uh, say what?!? What about Linux (based on Stallman's work), mplayer (based on libavcodec, which uses X264), and basically every other GPLed software in existence? Looking at popular packages, it's hard to find GPL'd work that *isn't* standing on some other GPL'd product's shoulders!
More examples: CVS (based on VCS), SVN (based on CVS), Gimp (based on tons of image processing libraries, e.g. libpng)
It's possible that there is no CVS code in SVN (although I'd be surprised), but I would be astonished if the SVN developers weren't reading CVS code for ideas.
Not.
He's thinking about the near future, where most interesting new hardware would have a chain of trust that requires you to have secret keys to get your programs to run on it, and you will never get those secret keys.
You modify that source code to your heart's content, suckers, because it's written against this prison platform (and it's probably not really useful anywhere else) and if you change it, it won't load.
WTF is the point of the GPL then? Where is the freedom?
Leaving aside the fact that DRM itself is nonsense (it is), impossible (it is), and inherently repugnant and evil (it is), DRM is directly incompatible with the purpose of the GPL, that's all.
The GPL itself has a "no secret sauce" provision. You're not really staying free if you can keep to yourself some secret that the code actually needs to work. This is just formally and explicitly extending the same line of reasoning for the most likely way it's being violated.
I really can't understand why people don't get this. The corporate world on a whim thinks it might be more profitable to take away all your freedom to tinker. They're probably not even right about that.
You just all roll over? Sure, I'll help. No, I don't need to get paid.
RMS is saying, look, this is bad shit, and I want no part of building this prison. Anyone who feels like I do, here's a license you can use. Don't be a sucker.
Linus doesn't want to use it, fine. I think he's an idiot for not getting it, but no one is being "pressed." We're all free to do what we want. Stallman can't press anybody. And that's the point. he's fighting so that you can't be "pressed" by others.
"Pressing." LOL! All this hate against RMS and the FSF is so barbarous, and so sadly ironic, frankly...
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