Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

U.S. Science Gap Fictional?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the not-if-you-ask-around dept.

James Cho writes "There are more science and engineering students than ever, says one Newsweek journalist. Inflated counts of Chinese and Indian students have created the myth of the U.S. science gap. While no gap exists yet, an exodus of retiring U.S. scientists could create one." From the article: "...a country's capacity for scientific and commercial innovation does not correlate directly with its number of scientists and engineers. Hard work, imagination and business practices also matter."

10 of 475 comments (clear)

  1. Currently not worth the educational investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why bust your hump getting MS or PhD in one of the hard sciences/engineering, only to land a job making less than 80k?? OR ... you can go to law school, or get an MBA, or sell cell phones, or flip real estate, and have a much greater earning potential for much less work. Until wage scale for engineering and the sciences returns its proper level there will be a deficit of people entering those careers.

    1. Re:Currently not worth the educational investment by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why bust your hump getting MS or PhD in one of the hard sciences/engineering, only to land a job making less than 80k?

      Because it is all you want to do. That's the only reason to do it in the first place. A real scientist/engineer will live in a garage and scrounge dumpsters for materials if he has to. Some of them do.

      If you're in it for the money, go sell real estate; please.

      KFG

    2. Re:Currently not worth the educational investment by kfg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I didn't say that's how they should work. I said that's how they will work, if they have to to get the work done. It's the question of motivation and the work being its own reward.

      Lilienthal said "Sacrifices must be made," not, "Is this covered in my benefits package?"

      But that doesn't mean that the sacrifices can't be made while working for NASA. Some have.

      KFG

    3. Re:Currently not worth the educational investment by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Education alone does not guarantee that you will make boatloads of money. Why should it? There are several factors which determine earning power.

      One thing that is not taught in school: How to make money.

      You can be virtually guaranteed a decent (50-80k) paying job if you have an engineering / science degree. However, there is some relationship between risk and reward. Perhaps this is why there are wealthy people in sports/arts/entertainment/business ownership - because the risk is so great (fail before you make it, and your broke). Also, alot of scientific/engineering tasks have been commoditized (sp?).

      Sure some people dont have to work hard/smart at all to make mega bucks. Some poeple hit the lottery

      What I believe is powerful, is the ability to tie several disciplines together.

      Now who do I give the most respect to? Engineers & Scientists. But respect != money.

      PS - it's 7:30 on a saturday, so I don't care that much about my spelling or grammar (for all of you grammar nazis out there).

      Also, I busted my Hump to get an engineering degree. Then I busted my hump to get a law degree. Then I busted (well kinda cruised at this point) my hump to get an MBA. Yes, the hardest was engineering. Should I be uber rich? I certainly don't feel entitled to be. looking at things from different perspectives, the key to wealth is being prepared to identify/execute/take advantage of an opportunity when it comes along.

      I know poor lawyers, rich college dropouts, rich engineers, poor athletes. looking at things from different perspectives, the key to wealth is being prepared to identify/execute/take advantage of an opportunity when it comes along - that's what seems to be common among the wealthy. Sure, some or even alot of it is luck...but if the luck comes your way, you have to be able to take advantage of the situation.

    4. Re:Currently not worth the educational investment by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gosh darn those scientists and engineers for wanting to make a living and pay off those hundred thousand dollar student loans

      You do realize that it's perfectly possible to get an engineering or science degree without borrowing money, don't you? Just don't go to the most expensive school, look into the scholarship opportunities available and work part-time during your education. Between scholarships and GI bill payments (USAF Reserves), I made money by going to school. That plus a part time job writing Math Ed. software paid my living expenses and provided useful experience to support my degrees (which are in Math and CS). Sure, I went to an obscure university, but I got a good education and with a few years of real-world experience behind me the size/name of my school ceased to matter at all. For someone one a scientific or academic track, the school you get your graduate degrees from does matter significantly more, but that's not where people acquire huge loans, and coming from an obscure college can actually *help* you get into a good grad school, assuming you've got the grades and the exam scores to prove your ability.

      Those big student loans are *not* necessary. That doesn't mean they never make sense: they do enable a more enjoyable college experience and perhaps for some people that's worth what it will take to repay the debt later. But to say that the need for the income to repay huge loans is a limiting factor preventing people from becoming scientists or engineers is just wrong.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:Currently not worth the educational investment by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If you're in it for the money, go sell real estate; please.

      Money isn't some evil reward that only greedy people desire. Money is a measure of how much society values your time and work.

      If people who took a few months' night classes to get a real estate license can make more money than people who studied 12 years for a technical degree in a difficult field but necessary field, that points to a fundamental problem in how society values individual accomplishments.

      Ideally the valuation would be based on how much your work contributes to the betterment of society. Indeed, a free market tends to push valuation and wages in that direction. Unfortunately, your proximity to those who "set the price" often has a greater influence on the valuation of your work. That's why real estate brokers, bankers, membership-based professional fields (e.g. lawyers, doctors), managers, CEOs, etc. tend to be overpaid. They have enough control over "setting the price" that they can thwart free market forces to (correctly) devalue their wages to better match their contribution to society.

  2. There cannot possibly be a science gap by DukeLinux · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am an engineer with a Master's Degree and even one of those silly Professional Engineer licenses. I work for a Mortgage company as an analyst / project manager. I gave-up on engineering years ago due to low salaries, poor opportunities and companies going down the tubes. People who fix cars make way more than engineers. Not a slam on them as I am thinking about going to tech school to do such a career change. There is simply a glut of people out there with technical degrees. Try hiring a programmer; you get flooded with thousands of resumes.

  3. Only business matters by cubicledrone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hard work is meaningless in a bureaucracy. Imagination and innovation are simply incompatible with bureaucracy and office politics. Only business practices matter. That is why the modern workplace is an adversarial, backwards, anti-innovation toilet.

    --
    Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  4. The real lack by Veteran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Business men claim that there is a lack of engineering talent grown here in the U.S. What they really mean is that there is a lack of U.S. engineers who are willing to work 60 hours a week for coolie wages - which is why they hire foreign engineers, programmers etc.

    Technical people get very little respect in the U.S. Last week's Battlestar Galactica - where an engineering officer was promoted to command showed the way that the "people people" view technical people: "they only know how to deal with machines", "its all about the people - don't forget that" Of course "people people" are not technical people for the very simple reason that they can't be. The technical people who go into management tend to be technical incompetents who couldn't cut it where they were.

    "People people" tend simply to be emotional bullies - stand up to them and they wilt. "People people" tend to make bad decisions that screw things up - hurting a lot of people in the process. Mostly their emotional strength is used for such ridiculous things as breaking off relationships - instead of making things work, they insure things are broken. While technical people get little respect from managers most managers don't know that the technical people are laughing at them behind their backs.

    And yes, there is such a thing as a good manager - just like there is such a thing as an incompetent engineer.

  5. Here is another reason not to study... by stonewolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I spent the time and money to get a MSCS. After going through 2 other majors I found I simply love computer science. I love learning. I love solving problems. And, I really get a charge out of seeing products I worked on selling in stores or being used in offices.

    Troule is, the older I got, the more grey there was in my beard, the harder it got to find jobs. No matter what kind of training you have, in the US there is a serious bias against old people. Many people, (most people?) assume that if you are over 40 you can't possibly know anything about technology.

    So, after getting the graduate degree, spending thousands of dollars every years for books and training, and shipping I don't know how many commercial products, not to mention writing and publishing many articles; I can't *buy* a job in technology. I was laid off on my 49 birthday in 2001 and I have not been able to find anything since then.

    Once in a while I get an interview... It ends as soon as they see that I am "old"...

    So, I am training to be a high school teacher. I teach part time at the local CC, but I can't get on there full time. There are so many people like me out there that I am actually under qualified to teach at a community college. In my neighborhood there are a half a dozen of us. We live on savings, part time jobs, and our wives incomes. It seems you can't get away with treating old women the way you can get away with treating old men.

    So, if you want to go into science and technology, please do. The world needs you. But, plan on "retiring" by age 50 because no company needs you after that age.

    Stonewolf

    P.S.

    Forced retirement isn't all bad. At age 50 I took up a martial art and meditation. The result is that I can now kick ass on most (not all!) of my young students, but I don't want to. :-)