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Was Thomas Edison Right about DC Power?

Declan McCullagh writes "Everyone knows the alternating vs. direct current wars ended with Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. But now DC power is being seriously considered for data centers. DC advocates say that plugging servers into AC power is inefficient, and switching to DC cuts down on waste heat and component failure. The University of Florida has even bought 200 DC servers."

82 of 545 comments (clear)

  1. Sensationalist, but effectively correct by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Was Thomas Edison Right about DC Power?

    Oh, well, nothing sensationalist about that headline. (*rolls eyes*)

    DC advocates say that plugging servers into AC power is inefficient, and switching to DC cuts down on waste heat and component failure.

    In this case they're right. With that much hardware that close together, it's easier to treat the entire room as a single device. As the article suggests, this cuts down on waste heat produced by inefficiencies in AC->DC conversion. In fact, it significantly cuts down on the amount of equipment needed in the entire room. The concept can be taken as far as to cutting down to a single power supply per rack.

    The amusing part about this is that the resulting racks might look a lot like Big Iron servers with pluggable motherboards. :-)

    1. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by oddbudman · · Score: 4, Informative
      The concept can be taken as far as to cutting down to a single power supply per rack.

      The article mentions the distribution will be done using 48V for distribution - you will still need DC:DC conversion at the boxes. These DC:DC converters will need to be run at higher current than an AC:DC converter. Higher current can cause more series loss in the system as well leakage losses in the switching supply.

      AC:DC converters, as mentioned in the article aren't really that ineffiecient (article itself quotes 90%). AC:DC converters are infact really DC:DC convertors, they just have a rectifier circuit to convert the AC to high volatge DC for DC:DC conversion.
    2. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The article is way beyond stupid! but the ideas do have some merit.

      Lets look at this more practically

      1) AC/DC covertors work by converting the supply to a high frequency. This allows us to shrink the size of the power supply and also creates better efficiencys. However poorly (or cost efficient)designed power supplies lose engergy in heat usually because of the components used ( ie the choice of materials such as copper and steel). Typically you could say 5-10% would be the range of a good powersupply ( higher than this and we should have still used magnetic transformers due to their robustness).
      2) DC/DC convertors work in a similar way to a AC/DC convertor and due to this nature is also proned with losses. 5-10% is another good range for this. Since the DC/DC convertor is switching 48V to 12/9/5V the volume of heat is smaller than a normal system.
      3) Heat: Obvioulsy both systems (AC/DC) and (DC/DC)systems will produce heat. by moving some of the conversion away from the data centre will reduce the heat inside of the datacentre, but will not remove the issue totally.
      4) Copper cost: In todays world copper is getting more expensive daily. The cost of installing suitable copper wiring would at a guess would be more expensive than the cooling the room traditionally. Also the copper wire would need to be thick the reduce voltage drop (and losses in the cable) and also to carry the required loads ( Cable sizes need to increase as the voltage drops to carry the same load).Copper costs are now a world wide issue!!!
      5) Failures: A centralised system is more prone to failures and would either need to be a bank of smaller convertors (to reduce risk) or have a backup redandant system. Eitherway, this is more expensive than normal systems. ( smaller convertors will also need more wiring adding to larger costs).

      In any event the processor is causing the heat problem, but help is on the way as chip manufacters start to focus in on these areas. I wouldnt be going out and changing to a DC backbone without looking into all the cost, now and into the future. ( I certainly wouldnt be buying into a system which may have only a few providers either as the economics dont add up!!)

    3. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by LoRdTAW · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Easy UPS too, if the servers use DC then batteries can easily be hooked right to the power bus that feeds them. No ac-dc dc-ac ups systems. If you have a 48V server you get 4 12v lead acid batteries hook em in series and hook them in parallel with a charging resistor and discharge diode. I know its a little too simple but at least it could be easily rigged up in case of emergency.

      Thing is how much more efficent is it to have one large ac-dc converter and then smaller dc-dc converters(http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/power/rot ary.html)? You are still converting ac-dc and then dc-dc again just like a normal power supply in a computer. If they oversize the main ac-dc then over size the dc-dc then I can see how it might be better.

      LoL It would be fun to get the DC from old rotary converters for a data center. Big mountain of spinning cast iron with slip rings, commutator, brushes and plenty of copper windings. Put in an old marble switch board with carbon arc breakers , synchro scope, volt/amp meters and knife switches. You then have yourself a turn of the century power system running new millenium computers :). Not efficent and high maintenence but how cool would that be!

    4. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't understand this whole issue with AC and DC. Both require massive investments in overhead wiring, which despoils the beauty of our suburbia, causes copper shortages, introduces losses from line transmission, requires odd things to be done to trees, and gives birds a comfortable place to sit directly above your car.

      Why not just deliver the electricity off a truck like everything else in life? This country has gotten so "addicted" to current electricity that we've forgotten that static electricity even exists. A single charged capacitor can supply enough power to run a modern datacenter; the only limitation is capacitance. Say your datacenter runs on 10 kilowatts (that's just a guess) so you need 240 kWh of power a day, or 864,000,000 Joules of energy. Can a capacitor deliver that amount of power?

      Sure it can, if it has enough capacitance. Energy storage is 0.5*C*V^2. Say the cap is 1 Farad, and we choose a reasonable charge voltage of 500 kV. How much energy is that? 125,000,000,000 Joules! WOW! That will keep you all set for 144.675926 days of continuous uptime! Every couple months, the electricity truck arrives and delivers your charged cap, and you give your spent cap back to the electricity man to be recharged at some high-sulfur coal plant in another state. (That means recycling which will help get the "greens" on board.)

      Of course then, you have the nitpickers. "But what about the gasoline for the truck? Isn't that a wasteful means of electricity transmission?" Just use the energy in the caps to run the truck! It's like hydrogen! Hydrogen has already been shown to be politically viable.

    5. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by njh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      LoL It would be fun to get the DC from old rotary converters for a data center. Big mountain of spinning cast iron with slip rings, commutator, brushes and plenty of copper windings. Put in an old marble switch board with carbon arc breakers , synchro scope, volt/amp meters and knife switches. You then have yourself a turn of the century power system running new millenium computers :). Not efficent and high maintenence but how cool would that be!

      I believe this is SOP in EMP hardened bunkers.

      And 4 12V lead acid batteries would be 57.6V :) 3 is 43V, which is by complete coincidence the same voltage proposed for new cars.

    6. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny

      Considering that it would be storing the energy equivalent of 30 tons of TNT, if you were to notice the lid starting to bulge on that cap, it would be wise to run like hell.

    7. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Cobralisk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      DC power is easier to deal with for backup redundant systems than AC. Simply put a battery (or 100 - as many as you like) in parallel and you're done. This is how telephony has always worked. Ampacity is your main concern. There are no frequency/phase angle/power factor related issues. DC is simpler than AC. The -48v in common use(actually closer to 52v, but who's counting) is safe to touch with your bare hands (although you can arc weld a screwdriver with it - melted metal==ouch). The major inconvenience is you just can't send it through a transformer. The added bonus is the internal capacitance of the batteries in parallel makes for a very stable power supply with a nice buffer for spikes/brownouts. The market for this equipment is pretty large and mature, since the entire PSTN(including all dsl service) runs on it already, and the big cable companies are migrating this way as well.

      --
      Waiting for ad.doubleclick.net...
    8. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Meanwhile back in the real world ...

      In a standard PC power supply the incoming AC is rectified and stored in a capacitor. Energy only flows into the capacitor when the voltage after the rectifier exceeds that stored in the capacitor. This results in a waveform which departs considerably from a sine wave - no current flows for most of the time while much higher currents than expected flow at the peaks of the half cycles. Electricians interpret this as a bad "power factor" from their experience driving inductive loads where the current lags the voltage by as much as 90 degrees.

      Standard PC power supplies are nothing like 90% efficient largely because of this crude rectification of the mains. Compare the rating of your supply in watts with the input voltage multiplied by the input current. These values should all be marked on the case.

      Power Factor Corrected (PFC) supplies are available. The better ones use a switch mode circuit to charge the reservoir capacitor through most of the main power cycle, while the less good ones incorporate a capacitor across the mains to buffer the large peaks of current when the input voltage exceeds that stored in the reservoir capacitor.

      One advantage of AC is the ease of transforming it to other voltages using transformers and the ease of using it to drive motors especially with multiple phases. In the modern age where switch mode power supplies are cheaper than those using transformers operating at mains frequency this advantage no longer exists. One disadvantage of using DC is the difficulty in switching the stuff off - inductance in the load drives the current straight through an opening switch or fuse creating a nice sustaining arc which is not quenched by the current dropping to zero twice each cycle.

    9. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Edison wanted to pump DC across longdistance lines, which would have consumed much more than the 10-20% losses in Tesla's AC. A hundred years ago, electronics complexity was so low that a single electric motor's mechanical power was often distributed around an entire factory by pulleys, rather than use multiple motors. Now we've got more complexity on a single square CPU inch than existed in the entire world when Tesla and Edison battled.

      I'd love to see how Tesla would have applied his high frequency/voltage engineering to photonics.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    10. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Almost-Retired · · Score: 5, Interesting

      57.6 volts? Under heavy charge rate and fully charged maybe. Thats so high the electrolyte in the batteries will be history in 3-5 days regardless of the formulation of the individual battery.

      I at one time had an older NCR ups, a huge old 150 pound honk rated at 1.2 kva, but it could output that 1.2kva for quite a length of time, running these two machines and one of the monitors for about 2 hours one day before I go nervous and did a gracefull shutdown till Allegheny Power managed to roust out a crew into our neighborhood 3 damned days later.

      It originally came with a 4 pack of 12 volt gelcell batteries in it of about 12ah each, but when it came into my posession they were toasted.

      On checking the float voltage I found it about 2 volts above what I would have called a good float voltage when divided down to a per cell rating, so I knew they'd been overcharged and dried out. I put in 4 18ah motorcycle batteries after setting it down to 52 volts, and boiled them dry in 9 months. I dropped it another volt and replaced them again, this time they lasted about a year before they were bone dry. As I'd rigged the overflow tubes to dump into a small jar of soda, I checked to see if the soda was affected, but it was still as pristine and white as the day I set it up. As that was about $120 a year for batteries, I said to hell with it, stuck a 2 wheeler under it and parked it on the back porch, replaceing it with the same size Belkin, which turned out not to be anywhere near big enough, shutting itself off rather unceremoniously at about 60% of its rated load. I yelled at Belkin and they sent me a much larger unit thats worked for about 4 years now with one battery replacement about 8 months ago.

      Idealy I should have been able to run the wet batteries in a stationary environment for 5 to 7 years, and possibly could have if I'd figured out the right float voltage for those batteries.

      Perhaps even a fixed trickle of about a milliamp once charged would have worked, but thanks to NCR's habit of burning old docs, I had none on that unit.

      I once ran a set of 225ah big truck batteries for 8 years on a standby generator after reducing the trickle charge till there was no more gassing, which was a current of about 5 ma. At the end of 8 years, they would still turn that Cummins 335 hard enough the first cylinder comeing up fired. And the next, second cylinder firing spun it on up enough to kick out the starter, a total elapsed time of maybe 1/4 second from hitting the button and it was only another second to make 1500 rpm and energize the alternator, for a total power outage to on generator elapsed time of about 3.5 seconds. Those 2 batteries would check at about 27.1 volts anytime.

      When you've lived where car batteries can freeze and split overnight if not fully charged, one tends to finetune the voltage regulators in the vehicles that must just start, for each battery. I've had batteries that were happy at 15.8 volts without gassing excessively, but in that home made regulator I had strong negative temperature comp too, slopeing down to about 13.8 at 70F, and the next one boiled like crazy at 14 sloping down to 12.4. Each battery has its own 'personality' I guess. Go figure. Yeah, its the old fart again, pontificating a bit about that which he's played with.

      --
      Cheers, Gene

    11. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Considering that it would be storing the energy equivalent of 30 tons of TNT, if you were to notice the lid starting to bulge on that cap, it would be wise to run like hell.

      Actually I remember doing some physics problem where I had to calculate the energy density of a simple high voltage paper/oil capacitor charged to near its breakdown voltage. I got an energy density for the cap that was 3% that of gasoline. Chemical fuels are just amazing.

      You could run your datacenter off a huge current in a superconducting ring kept near its superconducting transition temperature. As the magnetic field slowly collapses, a circular electric field forms around it. You stick a coil in that field and connect it to your datacenter. Cold magnetic rings can be delivered by (refrigerated nonmagnetic) truck. This scheme is only limited by the current in the ring when it comes off the truck.

      You could use a spinning disk. I'm guessing a steel disk spinning almost fast enough to structurally fail and fly apart might have an energy density similar to that of a fully-charged cap. Maybe it's possible to create an ultra-spinnable disk using carbon nanotubes. Then you could spin the disk much faster, and keep your datacenter running longer. I'm too lazy to figure out how fast you can spin a disk like that. But the edge can't go faster than c, or weird relativistic things start happening to the disk. Carbon nanotubes can only get you so far. They could spin the disks up in China, and send them here. But they would have to be careful. If every person in China spun up such a disk at the same time, it might affect the position of the North Star or change the length of the day.

      You could just run your datacenter off the 30 tons of TNT.

    12. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Air-conditioned+cowh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ac to dc converters are more tricky because it is necessary to isolate the input from the output. That means using a transformer with either special insulated wire on the primary or the secondary or an insulating layer between the primary and secondary. This means the transformer is less efficient than if the copper was more closely coupled. Also you have to design for a wide variation of input voltages and account for minor brown-outs. Most switchers these days are designed to run on anything from 100V to 240V (plus safety over-rating). The large electrolytics needed to get a reasonably ripple-free d.c. supply from mains are quite bulky and expensive too. All this adds up to addtional component cost and complexity, on top of a reduction in efficiency.

      A d.c. to d.c. converter only needs a switching inductor instead of a transformer and the capacitors can be much smaller, and offer better pulse handling, than the massive supply caps needed after a mains rectifier.

      Given a choice, I know which I would prefer to design. The mains converter of course because it's so much more fun!!!

    13. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by chgros · · Score: 2, Informative
    14. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Informative

      Edison "advocated" for all power systems, including longdistance transmission, to be DC - because that's what he was selling. His battle with Tesla for the first big contract, electrifying NYC, is the stuff of legend. Tesla won. And died penniless in the 1940s, while Edison died fat and rich from thousands of patents, most on inventions invented by people working for him. Some of whom no doubt died penniless.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    15. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by crysysone · · Score: 2, Funny

      Considering that many rural homes have large above ground propane tanks that store a sizable fraction of that energy in the backyard, I don't see a problem. A 350 gallon propane tank is storing about 32,200,000Btu. That is 33,972,799,980J or roughly a quarter of the speculative 144 day capacitor backup.

      That tank is also equivalant to a bit over 8 tons of TNT to continue the sensationalist stats. Good god, they let just about anyone have these things! I used to play on one as a child and bang it with sticks and tools because it made a cool sound! [sarcasm]Where the hell is Homeland Security! We must eliminate this terror threat from our counties![/sarcasm]

      1 ton of TNT = 4.185x10^9 Joules
      1 gallon of Propane = 92,000 Btu
      92,000 Btu = 97,065,142.8 Joules

    16. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two points are a little off-- first, a PC power supply is only about 60-70% efficient - high-efficency units can get up to 85% efficiency, but you rarely see that.

      Second, there are two kinds of power factor - displacement and apparent. A waveform that is not sinusoidal (with high peaks), is said to have a high crest factor. While I am rusty on the terms, one refers to the current and voltage, and the other relates to crest factor.

    17. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      As I recall, in the AC-DC conversion, the process is actually more like this: AC-AC tranformation to low voltage, high current, AC-DC conversion using bridge rectifier. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that the way most power supplies work?

      It's the way most cheap "wall-wart" power supplies work.

      For more than a few amps of current, the transformer needs to be rather large. To make things smaller, most computer power supplies use a smaller inductor which is driven at a higher frequency by switching the current on and off at a higher frequency (>60Hz). This is called a switching power supply.
    18. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by PatrickThomson · · Score: 4, Informative

      Power supplies that only draw current for a tiny part of the mains wave, to top up the capacitor, are banned in the EU because too many of them can and did affect upstream power equipment.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    19. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by SnowZero · · Score: 5, Informative

      It turns out Edison was not completely wrong: HVDC

      In particular, "Increased stability of power systems" is certainly something that individuals in the Northeastern US and London may be interested in.

      Of course, AC still has its uses, but the chart is now thought to be:
      really long distance -> HVDC
      long distance -> AC
      short distance -> DC

    20. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by amorsen · · Score: 2, Interesting
      AC is better for power TRANSMISSION -- getting it there.

      This is not true anymore. Most new long-distance lines being built around here are DC. DC is far easier to regulate, so it helps mitigate the risks of grid breakdowns. It is also more efficient to transform DC.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    21. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by FireFury03 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      although you can arc weld a screwdriver with it - melted metal==ouch

      Well that's more about current - most 48v supplies are capable of delivering quite high currents (lower voltage == higher current for the same wattage). So whacking a big conductor across the circuit like a screwdriver means you'll get a massive current compared to most high voltage supplies (which would've blown a fuse for similar currents).

      OTOH your body is not a great conductor so the fact there is a higher current available doesn't matter since it doesn't have the voltage required to pass through you.

      The major inconvenience is you just can't send it through a transformer.

      Less of a problem these days - most modern electronics use switched mode PSUs because they're cheaper, lighter and more efficient.

    22. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by speculatrix · · Score: 2, Interesting
      As the parent said, using DC to feed the racks still requires point-of-load DC to DC converters.


      In fact, the biggest problems with today's AC supplies is that the frequency is TOO LOW... this results in the transformers and other AC-AC converters being oversized. Pretty much every switching supply today, including the ones in PCs, chop up either AC or DC into much higher frequencies and this allows smaller components. Avionics have used this for quite a long time, as weight and size savings are crucial!


      The only limit on using higher frequencies comes when you start to get magnetic losses in transformers and chokes, so in practise a few hundred kHz is the useful limit in switched mode PSUs.


      Thus, if you were starting again with an electric grid system, 500 or 1000Hz would be a much better solution.

    23. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by olman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The only limit on using higher frequencies comes when you start to get magnetic losses in transformers and chokes, so in practise a few hundred kHz is the useful limit in switched mode PSUs.

      Thus, if you were starting again with an electric grid system, 500 or 1000Hz would be a much better solution.


      IAAPD (I am a PSU designer)

      1MHz SMPS is nothing fancy these days. In fact they're available even as integrated chips which combine FET switches and the controller into one IC. If you count in point-of-load charge pumps and such, you see up to 3MHz.

      Generally speaking, worst offender is high-current FET gate charge which eats up more power than all the other losses combined for synchronous buck transformer (higher DC to lower DC topology, most common type in use probably) Small (1-10uH) inductors are much better behaved in comparison. One reason to use such high frequencies is indeed that you can get smaller inductors and you have less ripple current.. But you're limited by the fet gate charge. Of course, if you're driving some 200W load, you can just say "h*ll with it" and build high power driver circuit to drive your switches, 5% waste heat on switching losses doesn't bring down the house when you can use dirt cheap inductors.

    24. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Informative
      You could use a spinning disk.

      Actually, high-speed flywheels are a viable energy storage system. IIRC, the most advanced ones currently use a Kevlar ring suspended on magnetic bearings in a vacuum container.

      The container has to be heavily armored, because if the flywheel fails and flies apart, all of the energy gets released at once. I saw a picture of the results of that in an article somewhere; it was a pretty big mess.

    25. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by araemo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cheap PSUs support it because they are banned in the EU now if they don't support it.

      Most cheap ones use the less good method he referred to(Often called 'passive' vs. 'active' PFC, in PSU literature.)

    26. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by jeffmeden · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bingo. I work with one of the premiere flywheel technologies companies, we incorporate their technology into industrial power supply systems. The disk is carbon fiber, suspended by magnet in a vacuum, and is spun up to something like 60,000 rpm. It's about the size of a full height rack, and manages to hold a whopping 2/3 of a kilowatt-hour. Yep, thats it. The advantage to this technology comes from the very efficient charge and discharge, not from the net charge itself. A flywheel to actually run a datacenter would have to be outright monstrous.

    27. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by operagost · · Score: 2, Informative

      Condenser microphones use 48V phantom power, and I can assure you that when I touched the housing of a mic that had its hot lead shorted to ground in the patch panel, I felt it. And that was probably only a few hundred mA.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    28. Re:Sensationalist, but effectively correct by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative

      (Just for kicks and giggles) ^2... A DC-DC converter actually chops the incoming voltage into pulsed DC as the parent is implying. Depending on your point of reference, you could call it AC... It either feeds into a charge pump or a regulator circuit that results in the desired voltage, then passes through some filtering to smooth it out.

  2. New Power System by 9mm+Censor · · Score: 5, Funny

    I heard of this new power system. Seems like a mix of AC and DC, to create the ultimate power form. AC *lightningbolt* DC was the name, and with a lightning bolt in the name, it has to strike you like thunder.

    1. Re:New Power System by hpa · · Score: 2, Funny
  3. Old news, for Verizon WA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Washington State, Verizon (Was once GTE) runs almost all DC powered servers and Telco equipment in their Data Centers. Many of the IBM server my company buys support DC power.

  4. They were both right...and wrong... by davmoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tesla and Edison were both right...and wrong. Like many Slashdotters do when debating which operating system is best for any given job, Tesla and Edison wanted to apply one power system to every job. Its like having a toolbox with only a screwdriver in it. Ever try to drive a nail with a screwdriver?

    For moving power over long distances, AC is king. But for short distances with most modern electronics, DC would win. The first thing a desktop system or server does with AC is converts it to DC. So if you have a number of machines all in the same room, why not do the conversion in one spot, and eliminate the redundancy in every machine.

    Would it benefit the average user with one or two machines? Not at all. But for a major center with many machines in the same room, I can see quite a bit of benefit with going with DC.

    --
    I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
    1. Re:They were both right...and wrong... by daniel_mcl · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Ever try to drive a nail with a screwdriver?"

      Nope, but I've put in screws with a hammer, even when I had a screwdriver on hand.

      --
      I used to read Caltizzle. I was a lot cooler than you.
    2. Re:They were both right...and wrong... by Phanatic1a · · Score: 4, Informative

      For moving power over long distances, AC is king.

      Nope. For the longest-distance transmission lines, you see DC being used. There comes a point when the capacitive losses you get from using AC encourage you to switch to DC, and for lines of several hundred miles, you start seeing DC transmission lines.

    3. Re:They were both right...and wrong... by hpa · · Score: 3, Informative

      In addition to capacitive losses, there is also the fact that you have to dimension your transmission lines to handle up to Vp (peak), not just Vrms which is what controls the amount of power that actually travels through your system. In effect, by going to DC, you can run the whole system at 1.4 times the voltage, and run more power through the same wires with no additional losses (other than conversion.)

    4. Re:They were both right...and wrong... by waferhead · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the article gets it quite wrong, with a bogus explanation when it says "For Physics reasons"...

      HVDC is actually FAR better for long line power distribution due to ACs inductive line losses... IIRC DC _is_ used some places. (California)

      The downside is that AC requires only a series of transformers to step it down to various levels for local power distribution--- Makes for a relatively straightfoward infrastructure.

      DC for all practicle purposed MUST be converted to AC for this purpose, via big honking inverters, unless you happen to NEED 250KV@1000A.

  5. Re:Westinghouse by PabloJones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tesla developed AC, and sold the patents to Westinghouse.

  6. It's true only in a pretty restricted sense by hpa · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's true that DC-DC power converters are more efficient than AC-DC converters, only if you consider than the typical DC-DC converter has a much lower voltage ratio than the typical AC-DC converter. DC power distribution is usually done in the 12-48 V range, depending on application, whereas AC is 100-240 V. It's also only a win in if you don't end up losing that power in the wiring.

    How come there is no real difference? Because both modern AC and modern DC supplies start out by converting the power to high frequency AC (on the order of several kHz), and operate on that. That's what you actually want as input, if anything.

    The article states:

    By distributing redundant direct current power to each server--and replacing the standard AC power supply with a far more reliable and efficient DC power supply...server reliability is increased by as much as 27 percent, and monthly power costs are reduced by up to 30 percent.

    In other words, the DC supplies they use are more efficient than standard AC supplies, which are the cheap crap and notoriously inefficient.

    1. Re:It's true only in a pretty restricted sense by atrus · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you just described is a voltage divider circuit. And its terribly inefficient for transferring power, since you're burning all of the extra energy up in the resistors.

      DC->DC converters are basicly AC power supplies. They pulse the DC current up to several hundred kHz, using an inductor, and convert it down/up on the other side. They're very efficient, although somewhat costly.

  7. Re:Antistropic Magnetic Fields by imsabbel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Er...
    "Anisotropic Magnetic Field" has to be the worst offense in terms of technobabble i have seen recently.
    Newsflash: there are no magnetic monopoles, so EVERY magnetic field is anisotropic...

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  8. Re:Was Edison right? by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It was a proprietary patent pissing match too. Edison went with the system that he controlled the patents on, and didn't really care about the technical merits of each system.

    Just think, if he'd settled with Tesla back then, today they could be sending people to be killed on the Edison Chair.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  9. Perfect by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Funny
    Let's see, how do we get a functioning data center to not just replace their computers, but their whole infrastructure? Replace AC with DC!

    Brilliant!

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  10. Re:Antistropic Magnetic Fields by demonbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First, that would be anisotropic.
    It doesn't seem too surprising that AC power would produce an anisotropic field since the current keeps switching, so the magnetic field should be switching direction also. I suppose this would make the magnetic field from a DC current isotropic (invariant with direction, or I suppose in this context constant orientation), but I don't really see why either would be an issue (since you referred to Maxtor, I assume the issue was something that had to do with hard drives). Although if you have a weak, constantly switching magnetic field it might demagnetize (randomize) low-coercivity magnetic grains (domains, whatever - I work with sediment, dammit!), but unless it is a pretty strong field it shouldn't bother the relatively hard (magnetically) magnetic media in use.
    I'm too lazy to actually look up what you are referring to, though, so whatever.

  11. Re:Uhh... by jdaomteys · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nope, sorry. Please play again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents Tesla and Westinghouse patented all of the AC equipment. Edison wanted to sell his stuff. He even went as far as designing electric chairs with AC to prove it was "more deadly."

  12. this is news? by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Informative

    for crap's sake, dc powered servers are nothing new, many have config option of "-48VDC standard telco" supply.

    1. Re:this is news? by sparkz · · Score: 2

      http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SunFi reV120_shared/spec.html just as one example. This is not news (and it doesn't really matter!)

      --
      Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
  13. No by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative
    Short answer no. Long answer - sometimes. DC is somethimes useful right in front of you, but it's hard to get it there.

    I've seen houses wired with 12V DC from mini hydro and solar - but in those cases it was a long way to the nearest transmission wire and would cost a fortune to get mains power onto the site.

  14. To Westinghouse by jheath314 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Perhaps we'll see the AC group hitting back with demonstrations of how dangerous these DC powersupplies are to the hamsters and other wildlife native to big server rooms.

    Incidentally, that's how the electric chair came about:

    [Edison]AC is dangerous! Just watch what happens to these various animals when I close this circuit!
    Edison electrocutes some horses
    [US_Gov]Ooooo... I'll bet that works on people too!
    US_Gov introduces new grisly method of executions, while disregarding the main point of Edison's demonstrations.


    The story has a good post script too... some reporters came to Edison to get his take the new, modern form of executions. When asked what name he would give to the method, Edison, in an attempt to forever link his competitor's name with electricity's most grusome application, offered "to Westinghouse someone."

    --
    Procrastination Man strikes again!
  15. Misinformation in article by gvc · · Score: 4, Informative
    For physics reasons, it's easier to transmit AC over long distances; DC requires thick copper cables or bars, instead of comparatively lightweight wires. But DC becomes a more serious possibility for power once AC reaches a building.
    What a load of crap. Low voltage (high current) requires thick wires - it has nothing to do with AC/DC. AC is horrible for long-distance transmission; up north megavolt DC is popular. AC is useful because it is easy to transform - you can step the voltage up or down with turn-of-the-previous-century technology and hence transmit at a higher voltage than you'd like to use.

    That said, if space and cooling are an issue it might well make engineering sense to get the transformers, capacitors, and rectifiers out of the computer boxes. Big 5v/12v power busses wouldn't even need to be insulated. So while the reporter badly mangled the story, the engineering sounds reasonable to me.

  16. Phone companies are all DC powered by isdnip · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, that's the norm across the phone industry. Everything, and I mean everything, runs on -48V DC. Okay, not the fluorescent lights....

    This goes back to the telephone talk battery, which is -48 V DC. That powered the phones via old cord switchboards, and was the voltage of electromechanical (stepper, and later crossbar) switches, which basically used relays. Electronic gear was then designed to run on the same power plant. A telephone building has a big bank of batteries, powered by multiple "rectifiers" (DC supplies) which, btw, are normally engineered to not run over 40% of load. (That way they can still run the systems and recharge the batteries when one of them is kaput.)

    If you then put anything else into one of their buildings, the Network Equipment Building Standards (NEBS), which are Telcordia documents that practically carry the force of law, dictate that equipment be DC powered. Among other things -- NEBS gear has to meet the brick schytthaus test. (Sun Netras and many Cisco routers meet NEBS. Your basic rack server doesn't. And aluminum racks are STRICTLY forbidden; it has to be steel.)

    So because of the talk voltage on analog phones, lots of computing equipment is engineered for -48 V DC power. Sort of like the legend (I know, that one is not really true) about the railroad track gauge being based on Roman chariots. But in this case it's surprisingly effective.

  17. DC vs AC in data center is about efficiency/heat by sflory · · Score: 2, Informative

    The reason you want to use DC is that a computer's power supply converts AC into DC. The power supply of most computers isn't that efficient at it. This basically converts some of your electricity into heat. (Heat in a 1U server in a big rack of 1 U is really bad.) In theory the data center's big AC to DC converter is more efficient and better cooled. Thus you save money in power bills, air conditioning, and rack space (less heat, and power draw means more servers per rack). Plus in theory your servers should last longer as the power supply is one of the more likely points of failure.

    --
    IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
  18. How Tesla can still make electricity by Dukeofshadows · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wrap the casket in copper, replace the headstone with a magnet, and expose corpse to this article. As Tesla turns in grave, free power.

    --
    As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
    1. Re:How Tesla can still make electricity by SinGunner · · Score: 2, Funny
      This is the 3rd or 4th time I've read about free power from people spinning in their graves.

      Is this a new Slashdot cliche in the works? Will it be added to soviet russia, elderly koreans and the like?

    2. Re:How Tesla can still make electricity by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Funny

      Actually, with Tesla, if you did it right, you wouldn't need a grid... just stick a metal rod in the ground where you want the power delivered. ;-)

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  19. Number one with a bullet, I'm a power pack! by mudshark · · Score: 2, Funny

    Back in black!
    Yes, I'm back in black!

    [tap tap]

    Hey, who turned off the microphone?

    --
    In other news, astrophysicists have announced that they now know what all that dark matter is: it's stupidity.
  20. The trouble with 48VDC land by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There are some advantages to operating on 48VDC, but unless you have the big battery room of a telephone central office, they're not that big.

    What Rackable is really pushing is a system where AC to 48VDC conversion takes place in a unit at the top of the rack, and 48VDC is local to the rack. That, at least, simplifies the cable management.

    One big advantage of 120/240VAC power distribution using US standards is that the connectors are standardized and reasonably idiot-proof. That is, if you can plug it in, you won't overload the power cord or the connector, and if you overload the branch circuit, a breaker will trip. Outlet strips have circuit breakers, so you can't overload the cord to the outlet strip without a breaker trip. There are NEMA standard power plugs for 15A, 20A, and 30A circuits, 120/240VAC, and single and three phase configurations. All this is standardized nationally and enforced by the National Electrical Code.

    In contrast, there are no simple standards for 48VDC. Most 48VDC gear has big screw terminals. There are no standard plugs and sockets. Somebody, preferably a licensed electrician, has to check all the data plates, add up the current loads, calculate voltage drops, size the wire and breakers, and torque the big screw terminals to the correct torque, using the correct lockwashers. Every time you add or change a load, somebody has to recheck the math. Errors can cause a fire. None of this is all that hard if you have basic power technician skills, but you can't just go casually plugging stuff in.

    Although, since the development of the low-cost clamp-around DC ammeter, things have become easier in the DC world.

  21. Re:Not over! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I found out that Consolidated Edison still sells DC power.
    Yep. My dad was the building superintendent of a church on 96th St. in NYC in the early 70s. The church building has a DC mains supply - mostly to run elevator and fan motors, but some of the outlets in the building were DC, and were identical enough to normal AC outlets that you could plug a regular plug into them. Well, before he knew better, my dad plugged an old TV into a DC outlet. Transformers don't take DC input very well - fireworks ensued. -b.

  22. Re:"220?" by B5_geek · · Score: 2, Funny

    "220, 240. Whatever it takes."

    --
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
  23. UPS? Of course DC is more efficient! by Omega+Hacker · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Last I checked, pretty much every data center worth its name has a bank of UPSs. That means that power is coming in AC, and being converted to DC to charge the batteries. AFAIK any decent UPS in use in a server these days is "on-line", which means that instead of attempting a fast switchout between mains and battery, all outgoing AC power is re-generated from the DC battery bus. If you assume a 10% loss in both steps, you're at 81% right away. Add a bazillion AC power supplies at 10% loss and you're down to less than 73% efficiency.

    Contrast this with a properly designed DC system a la old-school telco: The same front-end of the UPS is used, with a 10% loss converting AC to battery voltage. Then you run that into DC supplies that, with modern electronics, are going to be doing a lot better than an AC supply, so let's say 5% loss. That puts you at better than 85% efficiency.

    The critics cited in the article are actually probably not far off in calling the Rackable solution over-hyped, if you only take into account the isolated-rack design. Rackable puts 2-3U of beefy redundant supplies at the top of the rack and does DC to the servers. Efficiency-wise this is only fractionally better than a bazillion AC supplies, and quite possibly dead even because of the DC->DC losses in each server on top of the AC->DC->AC->DC setup implicit with AC-based UPS systems. However, AFAICT from a glance at their site, Rackable's systems are designed to drop right into existing DC datacenters, which eliminates the AC supplies at the top and the DC->AC->DC stages.

    The issue is what kind of infrastructure is needed to feed the selected DC voltage (which is going to be -48VDC) into the racks with the lowest bus losses, but this is someone I would expect is either a) already solved by the decades-old telco industry, or b) going to be solved in at the appropriate 384-cores-and-100TB-per-7ft-rack scale RSN, by "the market".

    I know that if I were in the position of designing a big datacenter right now, I would be looking very hard at DC systems.

    --
    GStreamer - The only way to stream!
  24. Telco, telegraph, computer, and deejay... by Myself · · Score: 5, Informative

    The origin of the 48 volt number is that it was convenient, and now it just sneaks under the 50-volt "low voltage" cutoff in the NEC, which I think was written with telcos in mind. The glorious thing about this is that you don't need licensed electricians to do power wiring in a central office.

    And the reason it's negative with respect to ground goes all the way back to the telegraph system: Western Union initially ran bipolar lines and noticed that the positive ones corroded much faster. Sodium ions (from dissolved salt) are negative, and thus repelled from lines that're also negative. The whole phone system was built with positive ground because of this, and it's saved incalculable maintenance costs. It does tend to mess with people's heads the first time, if they're used to negative ground systems, but you get over it quickly. (A number of traditions use blue for "hot" and black for ground/return, to help escape your "red equals positive" association.)

    DC power as used by telcos is also always redundant. There's an A-side and a B-side for everything, and the cables are sized so that the entire load can run from just one side. This leads to some very fat copper, which is cheap compared to downtime. You don't achieve five-nines reliability with a system that contains single points of failure!

    Now, about rack-mounting: This was also invented by the telcos, originally in a very wide (40-inch?) format, for the panelboards and Strowger switches. Some of the old crossbar equipment is still in those huge racks, but the 23-inch width is infinitely more common now. All telco equipment is mid-mounted, with the ears approximately in the center of gravity on the shelf, so the force on the screws is shear. There's no torsion on the mounting flange unless you step on the front or back of the shelf. Cooling is always convective bottom-to-top, or occasionally front-to-back with fans. This leads to a "cool" front aisle and a "warm" back aisle between alternating rows of equipment.

    Now, the pro audio industry borrowed the rackmount idea fairly early on, but they were mostly mounting control panels and mixers, which are very shallow, so flush-mounting made sense. They also changed the every-inch Western Electric mounting holes to an alternating-spaces "EIA" standard, and narrowed the rack from 23 to 19 inches.

    Somewhere along the line, an absolute idiot decided that computers should be rackmounted, but they should be 19 inches wide, flush-mounted, and use EIA hole patterns. I'm sure this has something to do with mainframe legacy getting perverted by peecee people. The current mishmosh of mounting standards (19" vs 23", two-post versus four-post, flush versus mid, inch versus RU, front-cable versus rear-cable) is what every datacenter tech deals with on a daily basis. Throw overhead racks versus raised-floor cabling into the mix, and you've got a recipe for frustration!

    If you're familiar with the concept of "blade servers", where common components are separate from processor resources in the shelf, congratulations. Telco hardware has been built like this since the invention of the circuit board. Actually, the concept of replacable plug-in units goes back before that, but it got vastly easier with printed wiring boards and card-edge connectors in the sixties. Most of the "good ideas" in serious computing circles are actually century-old ideas in the telco industry. Spend a week shadowing a central office tech before you design a datacenter, please!

    Also consider: If your datacenter is already built for DC, throw some solar photovoltaic panels on the roof. Inverters are a large part of most PV systems' expense, and you can skip that part. Why not start offsetting your grid demand now?

    Also also: Edison was flat-out wrong about DC. The modern switching power supplies that make DC transmission lines practical didn't exist in his day. Besides, long-distance power transmission is an entirely other discussion.

    1. Re:Telco, telegraph, computer, and deejay... by klaun · · Score: 2, Informative
      [snip]Sodium ions (from dissolved salt) are negative[snip]

      Sodium ions from a salt are definitely not negative. Sodium like many other akalai metals tends to lose its outermost electron and form a positive ion. I think you'd have a hard time getting sodium to pick up an extra electron.

      It makes the rest of the explanation a bit hard to swallow.

    2. Re:Telco, telegraph, computer, and deejay... by Myself · · Score: 3, Informative

      D'oh! Three minutes of googling while I composed the post, and nothing. As soon as I hit submit, I came across the telecom digest intro FAQ that explains it.

  25. Re:Tesla strikes back with wireless power! by cellojoe · · Score: 3, Informative

    Tesla believed that electricity should be free, so he created a tower that transmitted electricity over a distance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardenclyffe_Tower

  26. Re:Was Edison right? by Liam+Slider · · Score: 3, Funny
    Never argue with a man that has a death ray.
    I keep telling the authorities this...but they still won't give me my ONE MILLION DOLLARS.
  27. They're conflating several things in the article. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article conflates several things.

    First off: Digital electronics generally requires several voltages. And they're all low, requiring high currents, massive conductors, and local filtering and regulation. So even if you're providing DC power from outside the room, you'll have a switching power supply (or several) in each piece of equipment to convert whatever the rough DC power is to whatever you need, smooth it, and regulate it.

    But while some electronic devices use a common switcher to generate all the voltages with one conversion step, others use a "roughing" supply and a bunch of local supplies. Part of that is to get better regulation - part is because the roughing supply must run from 60 (or 50 or whatever) Hz and thus requires big caps to tide you over the low part of the cycles - caps you don't want taking up space near the components.

    If you're going to do it in two stages anyhow, you can put your roughing supply OUTSIDE the room and only have the final supplies inside. The roughing supply has a lot of heat dissipation so you save a bunch on your cooling.

    Second: There are two standards for power distribution in electronics rooms:
      - Your local power line stuff. (120/240/480/208-3-phase in the US)
      - The telco standard: x2-redunant 48V DC.
    A lot of equipment - especially networking equipment - is manufactured for sale to tellcos and other operations that use the standard. They might have initially used it because some of their equipment was co-located in tellco sites, where only 2x48VDC is available - and they got a quantity discount for buying a bunch of the same stuff and went to 48V for their own sites. Or they might use it because it's MUCH simpler to do backup power with floating batteries and century-old technology than with a building-sized UPS. (Note that a UPS CAUSES at least one outage when first installed and on the averate at least one more within the first year of operation from some malfunction. And a UPS dissipates more power than a roughing power supply or a battery charger.)

    But the standard for 48VDC is REDUNDANT 48VDC supplies, with the equipment only requiring one (and typically doing "cutover" with diodes B-) ). With the equipment already set up for redundant supplies it's not a lot of cost or work to wire both sides and put in two 48V feeds to the equipment room. (Four diodes are a LOT cheaper than a pair of 120V roughing power supplies at each box, too.) So of course the users of such equipment normally give it dual supplies. (Even if it's a single rack and so they just put two roughing supplies in the rack fed from two different 120V feeds.)

    The result is that all the equipment has redundant power supply, and keeps operating glitch-free through a number of kinds of partial outages - AND power supply repair and replacement. This is what's responsible for much of the claimed increase in reliability.

    The whole Edison/Tesla DC/AC war had to do with the economics of CROSS-COUNTRY power transmission. AC beat DC there because a century or more ago it was virtually impossible to jack DC voltages up to levels suitable for long-distance transmission and back down to levels safe for distribution within houses, while AC could do that easily and efficiently. So Westinghouse/Tesla could ship cheap power from Niagra Falls to New York City while Edison had to build fuel-burning power plants IN the city. It has essentially nothing to do with shipping the power around within a single building.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  28. Electrocuting an Elephant by Cordath · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Tesla originally worked for Edison, but they had a bit of a falling out, which is possibly why the AC/DC competition was so heated. Edison embarked on a pretty ruthless and gruesome campaign to discredit AC power, at least by modern standards. He electrocuted stray dogs and cats with AC current in public demonstrations intended to show how dangerous AC power was.

    In one instance, he even electrocuted an elephant...

    During the construction of Luna Park on Coney island, an elephant used as a beast of burden went out of control and killed a couple of people. Topsy, as she was called, was condemned to death. However, there was a wee bit of a problem. Elephants aren't the easiest critters to kill. What happens if you walk up and fire a shotgun at it's head, only just to piss if off? They do have rather thick hides, and we are talking about a homicidal elephant the size of a couple SUV's here. There weren't any cliffs handy to stampede poor Topsy off of, and I doubt dynamite was ever seriously considered. Edison, being the generous person he was, gladly volunteered to execute the elephant with AC current and filmed the whole thing. He showed the resulting film, "Electrocuting an Elephant" (1903) publically on many occasions. It is quite probable that many a cat and dog escaped a crispy fate thanks to this film. If you decide to track down a copy of "Electrocuting an Elephant" today, please be warned that it's a rather gruesome little piece of history, and is not for the faint of heart, or SPCA members.

    1. Re:Electrocuting an Elephant by slvi · · Score: 4, Informative
      You'll find the actual movie here, it's rather vile.

      Really though it's not that good, it only gets 4.2 stars at imdb.

      -s

  29. right and wrong by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 4, Informative

    Edison and Tesla were both right. Remember, the DC vs. AC wars were fought back when the load was mostly made up of lights, motors, very utilitarian things. AC is fantastic for transmission over long distances (and for running three phase motors, but that's another story). DC happens to be better at running precision equipment like computers -- heck, they all run on DC already. All we're really talking about here is taking advantage of an economy of scale by doing one big power supply (or a few, for redundancy) instead of one for each machine.

    Ever seen a telco rack? Everything runs on -48VDC. Everything. A telco rack always includes a couple of DC power supplies, and all the equipment just ties in to a common DC bus. The best part of all: the UPS simply consists of four "car batteries" (not exactly, but you get the idea) wired in series and tied directly into the bus! No pesky inverters to deal with.

    The telecom industry has been doing it this way for decades. It's about time the computer industry got on board.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    1. Re:right and wrong by fishnuts · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depending on the method, 5 to 40 percent gets lost as heat.
      Switching power supplies that are optimized for a small range of load conditions can achieve 95% or better efficiency. Most computer power supplies (built for a wide range of load conditions and voltages) are about 85-90% efficient now. Simple rectification and regulation through a linear regulator loses various amount of power through heat, depending on the load, but varies from 50-70% efficiency in a good design. This is what most wall-wart transformers do.

      The primary loss of power, dissipated as heat, happens in low-frequency power transformers and in linear regulators and transistors. Slightly less is lost in rectifier diodes, switching transistors and high-frequency transformers used in switching (PWM) power supplies.

  30. Someone has to say it... by schon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is this a new Slashdot cliche in the works? Will it be added to soviet russia, elderly koreans and the like?

    In Soviet Korea, elderly dead people spin YOU!

    1. Re:Someone has to say it... by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Beowulf cluster != BSD dying.

      I fail it.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
  31. Re:laws? by Kizeh · · Score: 2, Informative

    Bzzzt. Because 48 Volts is the standard used for all the DC equipment telephone companies have been using for years. Cisco, for example, makes a large portion of their product line with 48 V DC power supplies as well.

    Mind you, the 48 V DC systems are not simple or easy to wire. You're talking very significant amperages, which means very beefy conductors, and with batteries in the picture a risk of nasty stuff if you drop your screw driver in the wrong place.

  32. Thanks for reminding everyone by chriso11 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hate the worship of Edison. He simply hired hordes of scientists and engineers, had them do the work, then took all the credit. I don't know if the story you tell is true, but I certainly can belive it.

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
  33. Why not have separate DC rails for 5V / 12V ? by stevenm86 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is that quite so? Wouldn't there be taps on the transformer for approximately 12V and approximately 5V, and then the potentials finely adjusted using DC-DC regulators? Wouldn't that have less loss?
    Taking this a bit further, why not have an entire rack power supply that can deliver a rail of 3.3V, 5V, and 12V to each server, thus eliminating the need for a high-current DC-DC converter on the target board? I am excluding things like the exotic voltages for CPU and RAM, but still it is the 12V and 5V rails that would have to be able to source significantly more current.

    1. Re:Why not have separate DC rails for 5V / 12V ? by mwood · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because there's oodles of 48VDC power supply gear out there now, since telcos buy it in trainload lots to run their equipment. Battery for telephony has been 48V pretty much forever. Gear that can give you reliable 5V@1000A is probably rather scarce (pronounced "expensive").

      It's a good idea but it won't fly until DC becomes common in datacenters. And then it won't fly because the datacenters will have all been rigged for 48V. :-(

  34. AC versus DC by brazilofmux · · Score: 2, Informative

    With both AC and DC distribution, there are losses due to the resistance of the wire (I-squared-R losses). The way to minimize these losses is to increase the voltage (V) and decrease the current (I) while transmitting the same power, but there is a limit to how high the voltage can be increased. Air breaks down at about 3x10^6 V/m. To avoid this dialectic break-down, you continue to raise the height of the power line as you increase the voltage.

    With AC distribution lines, there are also losses related to the capacitance between the power line and the ground. Increasing the height of the power also minimizes the capacitive losses.

    With both AC and DC there are reflections between the source and load which cause further trips from one end to the other. Each reflection is smaller than the previous one, but remember how many people are using electricity and the fact that everyone is constantly adding and removing load from the system. So, even in a DC system, the line voltage will be constantly changing.

    Then, we have the conversions. Conversions from one AC voltage to another AC voltage is accomplished with a step-up or step-down transformer. This converstion isn't free, and it doesn't work for DC. It is very efficient and economical however, to convert from a higher DC voltage down to a lower one -- even for moderately high currents. it is very painful however to step a lower DC voltage up to a higher one. There are circuits to do it, but typically (or at least through 1990), it has been easier to convert to AC, go through a step-up transformer, and and then convert to DC. Also, the circuits for up-converting DC to DC are usually fixed at multiples of 2x, 3x, 4x, etc. using diodes.

    So, let's put it all together. I can believe there are long-distance DC transmission lines where the savings in capacitive losses are worth the significant capital investment required at both ends of the line for the conversions, conditioning, and to match the source to the line and the line to the load, but in general, in a DC distribution scheme, the DC voltage drops continuously along the line and must be periodically stepped-up by some hard-to-determine amount because it depends on the age of the wire, the distance from the last step-up, and the demands of the load at that moment in time, but the circuits for doing it are inflexible (can only do multiples).

    With AC, you get the flexibility that each sub-station is monitoring its own load and it can control the variable-step-down transformers to achieve the desired neighborhood voltages. Ready to increase the height of the lines? Step-up. Ready to drop the height of the lines? Step-down.

    In a data center, as several people have said, everything is in one place, so the problem is different. You want to pick a high enough DC voltage so that it is always higher (even at maximum load across the entire room) than any voltage you might need. Then, you use the cheap and economical DC-to-DC conversions _at the point of use_ to take that down to the +5V and +12V that your equipment needs. You may pay marginally extra for larger cabling to handle higher currents, but you save money by not needing step-down transformers in each power supply. Let weight, more compact, and more efficient.

    1. Re:AC versus DC by fishnuts · · Score: 2, Informative

      About converting DC to DC... There are DC-DC converters now that use highly-optimized digital controllers and high-efficiency inductors and/or transformers used to buck (lower) or boost (raise) available DC power, with efficiencies for some small systems (below 50W or so) in the 90-95% range. Their efficiency is due to high-frequency pulse-width-modulated switching transistors feeding the source current into a high-frequency toroidal core transformer or inductor. Running higher frequencies (as opposed to the low 60Hz line frequency from an AC source) allows MUCH smaller inductors and transformers for the voltage conversion, and less power loss due to transformer core saturation (which happens more with lower frequencies, which is why AC line transformers are so huge)

      In most new configurations of these types of switching power supplies (switchers, which is what almost every car audio amplifier uses, as well as most computer power supplies) the efficiency is about the same whether you step-up or step-down the voltage with the power supply. In fact, many PWM switching power supply designs can step-up and step-down without any change in circuitry, just by changing the pulse-width of the current being fed to the transformer.

      To say stepping up DC power is inefficient while saying stepping it down is highly efficient, makes it sound like you need to brush up on modern power supply design. Also, the only application in which diodes are used to step up voltage in integer multiples, is the diode-capacitor multiplier, which only works with PULSED DC or AC, and that design is, in fact, very inefficient. Nobody would use that except in certin high-voltage, low-current supplies, like in air ionizers, older televisions, and stun guns.

  35. This isnt the same AC vs DC debate. by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Edison/Tesla one was about long distance transmission of power, and AC is still the winner there.

    TTL logic has to run on DC, so you have to convert the supplied AC to DC. This is just recognizing that instead of converting it individually in each of dozens or hundreds (or more) machines, that it is more efficient and reliable to have one (and perhaps a redundant standby) converter providing DC to the same machines.

  36. Hero Dies Penniless by rdmiller3 · · Score: 3, Informative
    I wonder how long the list would be, if we filled in all the names which could be described by such a headline? How many of the greatest positive influences in human history have died under pitiful circumstances?
    Remember the death of Archimedes!

    Anyway, the respondant claimed:

    Edison "advocated" for all power systems, including longdistance transmission, to be DC - because that's what he was selling. His battle with Tesla for the first big contract, electrifying NYC, is the stuff of legend. Tesla won. And died penniless in the 1940s, while Edison died fat and rich from thousands of patents, most on inventions invented by people working for him. Some of whom no doubt died penniless.

    Check your history!
    Edison died nearly penniless too.

    The account which I read described how he ran across some iron-rich sand on a beach, and it gave him the idea to try a new mining technique where the ore would be extracted from non-ore material by dropping the sand past magnets. The idea was a good one (and is still used) but the site he chose to build his iron mine turned out to be almost completely lacking in iron ore. The iron ore in the sand on the beach had apparently washed up from some other source.

    Maybe he wouldn't have been desperate enough to try such a risky thing if he had been ALLOWED to sell AC power. I'm sure he could see the advantages of AC for power transmission but Edison didn't have the patents for that, and you can bet that Westinghouse wasn't going to license the technology at a reasonable price to their chief competitor.

    So Tesla got ripped off by Westinghouse because he wasn't business savvy and they got ownership of the patents. Then Edison, even though he was somewhat business savvy, got shut out by Westinghouse because they owned the patents. In both cases, patent law helped business-people who didn't invent anything get rich while the real inventors lost out. Shouldn't we remember that the patent system was set up in order to encourage invention?

  37. Re:edison vs. ac by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Edison went further: he lobbied his NY State politico buddies (like the Rockefellers) to use rival AC for the electrocutions. Tesla gave still-famous public exhibitions of AC, voltage/frequency tuned to run only along the surface of human skin, holding an "Edison bulb" in one hand, then grabbing an AC electrode in the other. The bulb glowed violently, Tesla stayed calm and cool. Tesla got the electrocution contract, the power transmission contract, and wide acceptance as "safe power".

    Tesla 1, Edison 0.

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    make install -not war

  38. AC vs. DC for power transmission by ecloud · · Score: 2, Informative

    I believe the article makes an oversimplification by stating that AC is better for long-distance power transmission. Rather, it's easier to generate AC power (no rectifiers are needed), easier to switch (because the arc when the switch opens is much easier to extinguish - current flow actually stops for a short period of time, and the arc goes out), easier to run a motor from AC (no commutator), and easier to do voltage conversions (you only need a transformer). For really high-power long-distance transmission lines (like between states) they use very high-voltage DC because it is in fact more efficient. But I'm not sure how they do the conversion from DC back to AC in that case (would guess it's just a rotary converter - a motor running a generator). The losses from doing the conversion on both ends are acceptable only when they are less than the losses that would occur in such a long transmission line.

    Losses are especially bad in AC transmission lines when the power factor is not correct, because while currents which are out-of-phase with the generated voltage waveform are expressed using imaginary numbers, in fact they are very real currents, and they cause increased heating losses in the transmission line. So the power companies switch large capacitors in and out of the circuit to try to keep the current and voltage in phase. (And they would appreciate if every device on the grid was power-factor-corrected, but this doesn't happen, mostly because motors are inherently inductive, and motors are the largest consumer of electricity. Sometimes they at least manage to persuade large industrial customers to manage their own capacitor bank, to correct for the inductance of their own motors, and give them a discount in exchange.)