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Mac Mini vs. Media Center
An anonymous reader writes "C|Net is pitting the new Intel Core Duo Mac Mini against Microsoft Media Center. The first round of the fight concludes: 'The Mac Mini automatically recognised the LCD TV we're using, and the third-party tuner was similarly straightforward to set up. Compared to the hours we've spent coaxing similar results out of a Microsoft Media Center system, the Mini is definitely ahead so far.'"
Is there a way to incorporate another service (onscreen DVR) into the Front Row interface?
My hacked, Xbox that is. I'm a Mac owner, and a proud one at at. I tell most people I know that ask for advice to get a Mac (they're not computer geeks, or they'd not be asking me for advice, you see). I was seriously consider an Intel Mini core duo to replace my QuickSilver, but I think I'll wait and see what the new PowerMac replacement has to offer first.
So despite all of that, my hacked Xbox with XBMC is bounds and bound beyond what the Mini can do. *Maybe* the only advantage I can see for the Mini is a local PVR connection. Poor me is relegated to using a five-tuner Knoppmyth box on the backend and using xbmcmythtv on the Xbox. Okay, maybe the Mini can do HD; that's not a concern for me (yet).
--Jim (me)
I just don't understand where CNet is running into challenges. The process for hooking up my HDTV to my ATI RADEON:
1)Attach component adapter to DVI port.
2)Plug in TV.
3)Change channel on TV to component input.
How could they f*** that up? Mind you, things used to be a real chore about 10 years ago. I haven't run into a modern driver suite, that doesn't "just work".
I won't even touch the gross genealizations about an entire market of computers made in the first paragraph.
How is the Mac Mini going to compete against the UMPC platform unveiled yesterday? The UMPC is supposed to start at $600, and Otto Berkes said you can select the components carefully and get one down to $500. The Mac Mini's pricing starts at $600, and it's still mostly useless without a display. I think this is why Jobs was so resigned at his Mac Mini press conference a week ago, not to mention that it was his chip-buddy Intel who co-developed the UMPC spec.
The Mini is a really cool idea. I haven't seen any of the hardware that WMC is running on. Personally, I use KnoppMyth, which is alarmingly functional, as far as PVRs go. I am not so into Windows solutions, due to the FUD: How often do I have to reboot WMCE? Will it record my shows? Do I have to have a 500+ Ghz machine to run it on? Will DRM cripple my ability to watch NetFlix DVDs? With an open-source solution, I know that I can do what I want with my hardware, and in this case, means watch Star Trek whenever I want.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
that was the shortest "WE LOVE OUR MINI" blog like post ment to impersonate news i have ever seen.
.. and integrates well with the video ipod it IS an Apple product what do you expect.
i like the mac mini and would love to own one.. but i have a nice xpc set up with an ATI 9600pro and i never had any issues with connecting it to any monitor/tv/hdtv
and Media center is nice.. it is easy enough for my wife to use it..
Sure front row for the mini rocks
i can't belive that crap like this makes it to the front page of slashdot..
someone wake me up when there is a good review with some meat and like systems.
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Next question.
When is Apple going to either stop making Quicktime suck or enable it to play all of the codecs out there?
It just took me 2 computers and "Divx Doctor" to watch a low quality fight video off of video.google.com, that is ridiculous.
Rude Turnip wrote:
>
> I think a far more interesting proposition would be to pit a 100lb pit
> bull against 100lbs of chihuahuas.
>
Prior art -- of a sort -- can be found in the grudge Match, "A Rottweiler vs. a Rottweiler's Weight of Chihuahuas":
www.grudge-match.com/History/rott-chi.shtml
Makes it more unsightly than a Windows box. You have to add a hard drive -- external because the internals have OSX on it. There's one device.
:)
Then you need a TV Tuner -- external.
Then you need to be able to pass the sound to a reciever perhaps -- more external devices.
After all is said and done.... sad to say, but Microsoft's Media Center is more suitable for a DVR solution. However, if you're just using it to browse movies (you already have digitally stored) or music, then the Mac Mini may be a good choice, since Front Row is really nice. But for recording TV (As I do now), the MCE solution is far, far better. And it's unfortunate because I'd much rather have a mac on my TV
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
please, it doesn't take hours to get a tuner set up on MCE. You "may" need to install a driver for your TV, but, I haven't had to yet. The only valid comment is that the mini is quieter. Of course, you can also get a MCE machine that's quiet as well. Of course, what they haven't mentioned is that the amount of disk space on the mini isn't anywhere near enough to be a useful PRV. While they seem content with just popping on USB and firewire devices, they seem to ignore the kind of rats nest and clutter that would create. My MCE is contained in a single shuttle box. That includes two TV tuners and 400GB of disk space of which 100 is dedicated to Music and Video files I already have. That would be two USB Tuners, and at least one USB/Firewire external hard drive and all the external powercords and cables associated with them, just for the PVR capability I have in a single box that is 7.87" x 7.28" x 12.2" and quiet enough for the living room. In my case, I don't even have the media center in the living room. It's in the kitchen and used as a normal PC and in the living room my X-Box 360 acts as a media Center Extender giving me full access to all my videos, music, recorded TV and live TV without the clutter of having the PC there. Sorry, the mini might be a fun media center project for some, but it's nowhere near as good as a media center PC.
My network was slow when I have a 802.11g router.
Even though connection speed was reported as 54Mbps I was only able to get much less than 6Mbps (with WPA enabled). I had the same issues as you did when watching videos remotely. It was very jerky.
I just moved to a 802.11a router (with WPA2 to boot) since then the slowness has completely disappered.
So I went to the local PC online store and slapped together a machine, a shuttle with a 740 Pent M, 2 gigs high end memory, 800 gigs of hard drive space, a PVR-500, Media center remote & keyboard, and a 16x NEC dvd burner and of course a copy of Windows XP Media Center addition, it costs 16,965 norwegian crowns.
I went to the apple norway web site, mini duo with 120gig, wireless keyboard and mouse, 2 gigs of ram, etc... I added 3x250 gig drives and an elgato eyetv 200 to the cart. That costs 20,106 norwegian crowns.
With the Windows Media Center PC, I get a large base of plugins, including My Movies which allows me to image all my sons dvd's to his computer and catalog them by using the imdb.org or amazon.com websites for movie data and artwork. I am able to record one channel and watch another. I can install all my sons PC only educational games (there are none in norwegian or swedish for mac that I've been able to find). I can run Windows WMVHD dvds which I own a few of. I can use my iTunes music library using a plug-in I wrote to integrate iTunes to Windows Media Center, etc...
On my Mac Mini (I have 2 macs, one server, one mini, 2 Linux systems, a VMWare partitioned Linux/Windows server, 3 Windows notebooks, and a BeOS toy in the house, all using licensed software), I fight and struggle to find programs to do the simplest things. For MPEG encoders, I'm limited to a terrible selection including that included with iDVD, the one that comes with Compressor for DVD studio pro, and the third party one for a lot of money I tried but found to be little better than compressor. I can't find childrens games, I can't find any decent development tools (argue with me on this one, I dare you), I can't find decent programming documentation. TrollTech Qt can't even generate project files for use with XCode. I can't use Windows Media files in any application (and Flip4Mac only works 1 in 10 times). I can't get good performing video codecs, etc...
That being said, I ordered the new Mac Mini the other day, it looks like a nice machine and since I have experience developing applications for EFI on ia64, I figure it'll be fun to try and emulate real mode long enough to boot Windows Media Center onto a pretty cool machine.
Later
There is actually a reason for the Mac Mini to be thought of as a good
media computer, which hasn't been touched on yet. The future holds
a threshold date after which all analog TV transmissions become null
and void, when digital receivers (set-top boxes) must be used to get
any off-the-air broadcasts.
And all those set-top boxes are going to have Firewire ports.
Most PCs are unsuited to the entertainment center because they lack the
basic amenities (silence, remote control, low power consumption, firewire).
The Mac Mini doesn't suck. It IS suited to this location, and it's available
now. Heck, it was available last year, and the year before that...
Remember, too, that adding a set-top-box means you have to have multiple boxes to
do familiar tasks (tape the news on channel N while watching the movie on channel M?)
and that the task of tuning in a channel is no longer something your VCR can do,
'cuz it takes the signal from that set-top-box...
You'll want a sane interface, using a single remote control,
reading a single menu from a screen,
and having it all JUST WORK without any of the little gotchas...
Remember that VCR that was hard to tell whether it was AM or PM?
Remember that VCR that wouldn't do its timed record unless it was in
OFF/standby mode?
Remember the recording that hit the end of the tape (or DVD) and lost
the final scenes?
Remember the power glitched, and nothing kept its settings (a computer
with filesystem and backup battery would have solved that problem)?
Remember the cute accessory outlet on the cable box that turned off the TV,
and how the before-sleep ritual of turning the TV off meant the VCR was
taping from a turned-off cable box and it taped a lot of nothing?
Remember how the universal remote got bumped to TV and you tuned the TV instead
of the cable box and nothing showed up right?
Remember how the Beta and VHS recorders were daisy-chained and somehow the
signal was getting noisy until you unplugged some of them?
All those glitches are soluble but the solutions are in the form of integration
of functions and good software modeling and display/control functions.
Tivo does most of this, but not all (multiple-channels-at-once? Gonna cost ya!)
The need for information integration and a control terminal (keys on the remote,
menu and status on the big screen) with responsibility for the
whole media center is here, NOW.
I think a lot of folk will have a computer of some sort next to the TV in the next few years.
The happiest of those folk might have a Mac Mini.
No fighting with virus infections, no Genuine Advantage hassle with a genuine registered version of XP, no spyware/malware/direct_to_the_stored_creditcard_ba ckdoors.
Plus I get to set it up how I want it, I can script repetitive tasks, there is a meaningful command line environment, it updates itself regularly in the background without needing a reboot etc etc.
Linux is fully network aware, and designed that way, so I can perform the same tasks over SSH as I do locally. Multiple desktops, slews of free software, interested users, true multi-user environment ....
I have 2 old windows machines. Win98SE, relegated to providing dvb tv, and encoding xvid etc. Also a Win XP laptop, which has all my email backed up on it, plus various tools for accessing my servers. This is designed for emergency use, ie. if there is a fire, I can grab it and run without losing all the important stuff. It could run linux permanently (in fact it does via knoppix et al) but there is some handy (windows only)software for video capture living on it.
Sorry for the rant, but as far as I'm concerned, windows is for the proles(1), macs are for posers(2) and the rest (ie. *nix) are for the real power users / hackers / whatever(3).
(1)Don't know, don't care - just do it !
(2)Oooh, look at me !
(3)Now, I wonder if I can make it do this ?
Small example, when I have the tv prog running on the win98 box, I output to a projector, and continue working (heh) on the linux box via the monitor (they are both using the same monitor through a KVM). However, as I don't have remote for the tv card, to change channel I have to stop what I'm doing and switch the KVM over to the windows box, come out of full screen, find the channel, click it or type the number then go fullscreen and switch back again. At least I used to have to do that. Now I have VNC running on the windows box, and I just switch desktops ( ctrl+alt+arrow ) on the linux box to enter a channel number in a terminal window. Ok, you could do that windows to windows easily too. What wouldn't be so easy would be writing a small shell script that takes your simplified input and converts that to the correct channel numbers before sending. So instead of the history channel being 128 (it's not btw, but eg) it is now just 8. And so on for the rest of the unmemorable channel numbers. Ok, it took maybe an hour to set up and test, but it has saved that time over and over ever since. Plus I don't have vnc running on the linux box all the time (which would still entail memorising the correct channel numbers), I just use this.
I equate the "My time is more valuable" attitude to "I don't need to know simple car mechanics, if it breaks down I'll get someone else to fix it". Then they spend 3 hours by the side of the road waiting for a mechanic because a plug lead has come loose !
Todays mood == troll ;-)
This always riles me up. iTunes and apple are such great products except they miss fundamental point. Like the Register article said, (paraphrased), "Apple doesn't necessarily do hard things. They just do easy, obvious things that others don't want to do. Things like providing an mp3 player with simple controls and a music store with simple pricing." But they don't seem to be willing to provide a data stream usable on other devices reguardless of if you buy their software or hardware. The fact of the matter is I am not going to open WMP to play windows files, iTunes to play Apple files and Winamp to play Ogg files on my TV. I am going to have a single, unified user interface and anything that can't supply data to that UI, I am not going to purchase.
I do security
"Because with a simple Firewire break-out box, that's exactly what a lot of people are using their minis for. Next question."
Except it doesn't work. At all.
I was a proponent of the new Intel minis (look at my previous comments) until I got one this week. First headache was hooking it up to the TV. No computer does completely well with overscan, but at least the Windows rig I built had nVidia drivers where I could tweak the exact resolution I wanted. On Mac I got a single checkbox that said "Overscan" (didn't do the trick) and I couldn't get DisplayX, ResX, etc to properly change the resolution.
Then came Front Row. Pretty, but clearly a 1.0 product. Several times it would freeze entirely for no reason (until you zoomed back out to the desktop and realized some dialog wanted your attention). It refused to play VIDEO_TS folders (my Media Center box does). I won't fault it for that, but I will fault it for having no kind of zoom feature for 4:3/16:9. Basically I had an underscanned resolution playing 4:3 videos in a 16:9 mode. It was like cutting 4 inches off all sides of my TV screen. I mean, come on, why would the DVD player app have video zoom but not Front Row.
And don't get me started with the 3rd-party TV recording app. Having to use 2 remotes defeats the purpose of Apple's "simple" design. Yes, they love to compare their remote with the Media Center one. I admit the Media Center one isn't the greatest design in the world, but at least 10 extra buttons are there because you need to change channels!
Don't get me wrong. It's really an excellent desktop OS, and I bought another Mini for my family so I don't have to deal with removing spyware from their machines. But as a media center, it absolutely sucks. I ended up returning it.
Note that H.264 is a derivative of MPEG; in fact, it is MPEG-4.
HDTV is typically transmitted as MPEG-2. This codec by itself is much less processing intensive than anything MPEG-4 (DivX, H.264, what-have-you) - it's the same used to compress DVD video. But what's saved in complexity is more than compensated for in outright resolution; HD uses significantly more pixels than DVD video (which in itself is high resolution compared to standard def TV), to the order of almost 3 times as many in the case of 720p (exactly 3 times as many in 1080i - not that it matters too much, since post-processing deinterlacing eats up a good bit of CPU in itself...and...well, forget 1080p). That's a lot of extra pixels. Ignoring operating systems, processors, and the rest, this is a tough cookie for any computer.
Still, I dare say any modern PC, no matter what the OS, can decode MPEG-2 at 720 just fine - maybe even 1080. I say this because I've never thrown an MPEG-2 that any PC of mine, since running Duron 600's, hasn't liked; although, never one at full HD res. But I still remain faithful.
That said, PVR'ing content of that kind of resolution, which essentially involves constant recording to disk, is enormously more demanding on any PC. So it all depends on the input card/adapter; I'm pretty sure no HD video adapter doesn't come with some kind of video compression chip on it. My standard def Hauppauge comes with an MPEG-2 encoder, without which my MythTV PVR would be a sight more skippy - it would be silly that HDTV tuners wouldn't, either.
All that said, I think little (performance-wise) depends on the software, and more attention should be paid to the hardware, which in the case of the new Macs is very similar to many PC's (or laptop, I should say). Worth noting that a Mac PVR probably would be specifically tied into Quicktime and iTunes, and dealing seamlessly with iPod Videos - a major plus for the majority.
Anybody know if Linux with MythTV can be installed onto an Intel Mac of any sort, and combined with a USB based tuner?
And don't tell me you're trying to watch DivX, because all that shows is that you haven't installed the codec pack.
Seriously, you are either making shit up or you're not ready to use computers yet.
I've used Apples and Macs since 84, UNIX/Linux since 94. I've purchased and run flawlessly millions of dollars in hardware and software. Operating systems I've admined/run include old stuff from the 80s to Digital UNIX, Solaris 2.5 to 10 (they dropped the 2), OS X, Ultrix, FreeBSD, AIX, plus others I'm sure. I run a scientific visualization lab with 3d passive stereo on an 84" screen with achromatic circularly polarized lenses and goggles. I've programmed in half a dozen to dozen languages including doing client/server crypto for a defense contractor. Personally, in my house I have just shy of 10k in hardware and software.
No, I cannot just double click on a movie file and expect it to work on my 2005 Mac. I have to transcode the stuff. I regularly have to try 3 to 4 different players, and sometimes that does not work.
In all honesty, its not entirely Apple's fault or the apps, its that there are waaayyy to many different codecs and containers out there for multimedia. Clearly, there is no real winner between them, so why can't somebody pick a handful to be the ones to focus on?
There is for audio inside of a movie, mp2, mp3, wav, AC3, DTS, and more. For video, there is WMV, Xvid, Divx, mpeg1, mpeg2, mpeg3, mpeg4, H264, and others. There are almost as many containainers as codec combinations.
Its a fucking mess.
[i]Plugging the DVI cable right into the HDMI input on my projector was easy enough.
On my projector, I lose about 12 vertical pixels at 720p. (Fewer in 1080i, but 720 is the native resolution for my projector.)
Tweaked my view to lose them mostly from the bottom rather than the top... Put the dock on the side of the screen... Got on with my life.
Watching shows, I lose less of the screen image than people with ordinary HDTV sets do. Watching movies I usually lose nothing, since the aspect ratio is usually even wider than 16:9. Done.[/i]
You got lucky. Overscan varies from display to display, and 12 pixels is nothing. 90 pixels (on all 4 sides) is a problem, and that's what I got with my Mac. I didn't get that with my PC.
But that's more the TV's fault than the Mac's. The real issue is that in it's effort to keep things "simple" (one checkbox for overscan), they completely removed any customized resolutions. Why is it that I can set the resolution exactly on a Windows box (and on a Linux box, for that matter, in MythTV) but not in Mac? Why do I have to go with the (incorrectly) detected resolutions? I thought DisplayX and ResX would fix this, but they didn't.
[i]The Mac has this very obscure application called "DVD Player" which plays VIDEO_TS folders just fine, and also has the zoom feature you are so depressed about missing. Best of all, I am able to use my universal remote to browse through my entire DVD library on my firewire drives, select the one I want, and watch it in full-screen 16:9 mode. This is all just from the basic OS with a cheap Keyspan IR sensor, mind you. No need for fancy apps.[/i]
Thank you for not reading all of the very paragraph you quoted. I *did* notice that DVD Player did video zoom, and it worked well. However, 2 issues: first, eschewing any kind of UI consistency, they don't allow zooming in Front Row. Second, and more importantly, running the DVD player app defeats the very purpose of what I'm trying to achieve with the setup. I want to use the 10 foot interface, not the 2 foot one. On the Windows and Myth boxes, I can choose the ripped movie I want to watch and hit play on the remote. Done -- and in full screen I might add. Your suggestion is to either open the DVD app from the desktop (yuck) or have it on Autoplay, which is even less palatable. If I left it on Autoplay, I'd have to contend with that damn "Start at beginning or play from where you last stopped" dialog, which unfortunately is completely inaccessible from the Mac remote. If I turn off that feature (which is actually somewhat useful) I lose functionality that's in Front Row. Lose-lose all around.
[i]My EyeTV remote hasn't come out of the kitchen drawer since the week that I bought it. Nor do I use the Keyspan remote for my Mac.
I do everything with the programmable remote that came with my Amp. Have you never heard of universal remotes?[/i]
Yes, I own the $200 Sony one. (The "brick" -- the one that controls a ridiculous number of devices with 32-step macros). It's fine for getting the boxes on but cumbersome if you just want to flip around menus on a DVD.
[i]You're nuts. I would NEVER part with my Mac in favor of a Windows-based media center.[/i]
Then you never used one. Seriously. I've found every single person I talk to that downplays MCE has never actually used it. It's without a doubt the best UI Microsoft has ever come up with (which is a complement, considering every other UI they've done blows monkey turds) and I've had people react surprised when I have it bring up a 300-movie library in front of them, get director/cast info, etc. with 2 button presses. They can't believe Microsoft made it, because it doesn't act like they did. Not to mention, MCE plays just about every file format I can throw at it, and it does the most basic things (security updates right from within the 10-foot interface) that even Apple was blind enough to leave out.
Look, we're not talking about a dinky little sub-par projector in the