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Supercomputer Performs Simulation of Virus
moller writes to tell us Red Herring is reporting that researchers from the University of California at Irvine and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have announced that they created a computer simulation of a virus. From the article: "Using one of the world's fastest computers at the U.S. National Center for Supercomputing Applications, located at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, the researchers ran a computer program devised to reverse engineer the dynamics of all atoms making up the virus particle and a tiny drop of water containing it." Nature also has an interesting write up on the research surrounding this project.
This is just fascinating, and precisely why we do high performance scientific computing. This quote piqued my interest in particular:
The model also shows that the virus coat collapses without its genetic material. This suggests that, when reproducing, the virus builds its coat around the genetic material rather than inserting the genetic material into a complete coat. "We saw something that is truly revolutionary," Schulten says.
So, by doing this simulation of a tiny span of time, the team was able to get new insight into the process of viral replication that would be extremely difficult to come by with experimental techniques. It also is fascinating, since we often think of viruses as little static particles that float around until they interact with a cell, and yet the simulation showed the surface pulsing. Very cool! -- Paul
OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
They will be writing computer simulations of spores!
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
a McAfee AntiVirus update immediately wiped this program and all associated files from the face of the earth.
The virus later choked to death on a SMTP configuration file.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Dear Sir or Madam: This letter is to notify you, pursuant to the provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, that we believe one of your humans is infringing God's copyrighted materials. Specifically, God is the owner of the copyright and trademarked materials, wich includes all life forms. The aforementioned human reverse engineered a virus without authorization, thereby infringing upon God's copyrights and trademarks. Accordingly, God demands that you act expeditiously immediatelly stop and remove all acquired data from that procedure in order for you to claim a safe harbor under the DMCA from liability for contributory and vicarious copyright infringement. Sincerely, God
There are millions to hundreds of millions of atoms in a typical virus. Here is interesting virus simulation info
Oh yeah, I know (hope?) you're joking, but modelling millions of atomic interactions is, as they say, nontrivial.
Man, you really need that seminar!
You don't need a supercomputer, just a Windows box.
Not quite:
Windows Box: lol this is not a virus
Supercomputer: LOL THIS IS NOT A VIRUS
I once read that if you converted all the sand of the earth into processors, it would still take ages to accurately simulate the folding of a protein. Is this just "zooming out" and ignoring things like protein folding?
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Bigger problems, and bigger computers to solve them on. This is certainly a fun example, and aesthetically pleasing as well.
Unfortunately, we're still a few generations of supercomputer off from being able to simulate ribosomes (at which point most of the cellular machinery will be suitable for in-silicio biochemical investigation), but this is an excellent step along the way. It's also a good to showcase Schulten's group's work on efficient parallelization of complex simulations. He's had to solve a lot of algorithmic issues in order to be able to run that simulation, so this is not just an example of "wait for a bigger computer". If you check out their web-page http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/, you'll find discussions of the underlying technology, which has required collaboration between biophysicists and computer science. My hat is off to them, especially as they not only achieved the proof of concept (we can simulate a small virus), but also gained biochemical insights (we didn't know they collapsed without the genetic payload). Bully for the Biophysicists!
Note: I don't work for them, but I admire the scale of simulations they do, and their willingness to make available to the community the tools they use.
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
From TFA the virus so simple as to need a second more complex virus in order to replicate. Even so, the simulation only covered 50 billionths of a second, or about 50,000 frames. The Nature article stated that in the next 5 years it may be possible to simulate more complex viruses. Its amazing to see how complex life is that even the most powerful computers we have come up short.
The simulations followed the life of the satellite tobacco mosaic virus, but only for a very brief time,
The nature article mentions a runtime of 50 times a billionth of a second, which I guess is 50 nanosecond, or 50 femtosecond, depending on how you define 'billion'. 50 nanoseconds is pretty good for a simulation nowadays, especially for a system of that size.
Look, it al seems very nice that they did this, fancy pictures and nature paper garantueed, but this really won't help us much further. This is no big scientific step forward. Virus processes happen at least in the micro/millisecond timescale, there's a lot of protein diffusion and refolding going on. Since the short simulation done here was an immense effort, it means that going to the timescales studying the real important processes is still way too far away. But who knows, maybe in ten years.
Right now, you could better use the same computer power used for this single project to study a lot more smaller projects that actually will give us insight into real molecular processes. Or maybe I'm just jealous ;)
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
I realize that the /. crowd is going to fellate any researcher who uses high-performance computing to draw pretty pictures, but from the Nature summary this sounds like a classic scientific case of showboating.
The researchers were using a technique called molecular dynamics, which attempts to model the movements of atoms in a 3D structure by integrating over Newton's equations. Force, however, is calculated using a coarse, empirical function of atom positions and their chemical properties. This model is weak, and it fails to produce physically-reasonable results on a whole variety of smaller problems, so it's an exaggeration to suggest that this simulation produced anything of physical or experimental relevance. And drawing strong physical conlusions from it? That's just crazy.
Before I get flamed by the MD crowd, I'll say that I am NOT suggesting that MD is useless. It's just that, it has a very short track record on problems of this size, and even in much smaller systems (i.e. fewer atoms), it's success rate is questionable. We can't even predict the dynamics of a single protein with this stuff -- it's absurd to suggest that it will work on an entire virus.
In short: don't be fooled. This experiment got into Nature because of its hubris and glamour, not necessarily because of its science.
P.S. I work in this field, so I'm posting anonymously.
...on finding a lawyer. I hear most of them end up downstairs.
They need a supercomputer to simulate a virus? Crap, just get an XP box, give one of my coworkers admin rights, and you'll have the real thing in 15 minutes!
Futher proof of Windows' superiority.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
FTFA: This particular virus can only replicate in a cell which has already been infected by another virusthe tobacco mosaic viruswhich commonly attacks tomato plants.
Tomacco.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
Finally, I can say this for real: Imagine a Beowulf cluster (link is to Biowulf) of these!
The modeling software they used is called NAMD, free open source "parallel molecular dynamics code designed for high-performance simulation of large biomolecular systems" that will run on commodity clusters of tens of Linux PCs on gigabit ethernet. In other words, you too can run the virus simulation on your own Beowulf cluster, if you don't mind it taking some years to run. According to NCSA's own press release about the virus simulation, it "only" took 35 processor-years, so if you have a 100 fast Linux PCs on a gigabit network lying around you can do it yourself in not much more than 4 months.
1. The full research page for this project is here. This is a lot better than the stuff linked through Nature and such.
2. The image was actually generated by our group, and specifically Anton Arkhipov, using our software package VMD. NCSA didn't have anything to do with it.
What about the fact that virii aren't usually considered to be alive, not being capable of reproduction outside of a host cell?
Sorry, but I don't see how this is insightful. Anyone...?
I pretend to know more than I really do by mooching off google and wikipedia.
What is your evidence that life is completely deterministic atlarge scales? If you've figured that out, you've solved problems for a lot of scientists, philosophers, and theologists.
Most large-scale patterns and processes in nature are stochastic and the outcome is one of a distribution of possibilities, similarly to quantum mechanics. In general, the same pattern can result from diverse processes (e.g., banded patterns of vegetation from dispersal dependence or topographical variation), while a single process may give rise to many different patterns (e.g., fire disturbances may result in even-aged forests or mixed-age forests).
Philosophically, however, the question is interesting and has, as most interesting philosophical questions, been discussed before. Look up "Laplace's demon" sometime(the demon being the closest thing an 18th century mathematician could imagine to a supercomputer with access to infinite information): if one assumes that the world is inherently deterministic(from our point of view, this assumes the "hidden variables" interpretation of quantum mechanics) and proposes that some kind of being could in theory have access to unlimited information about it, then concepts such as time lose much of their meaning, since things are "destined" to happen before they actually do happen(and in what absolute sense can they then be said not to have happened already?).
Obviously, free will in the absolute sense is also non-existent from this point of view.
Excuse me, but why is the parent modded as a troll?
Folding@Home.
I agree. It's just another "computer stunt" paper. The supercomputer centers love these things, as they (sort of) justify their existence. I think if they tore apart these big parallel machines and gave a small piece to small research groups around the country, a lot more science would get done. It takes a _lot_ of simulations to really learn anything, not just one moon shot hero run. The idea of these grand challenge computational problems soaking up all of the resources is so 80's. You can load up a 2-way dual core (for 4 cores) system (say, Operton or G5) and load up 16GB of RAM and get a lot of science done. This was even true more than 10 years ago: it was faster to run on a RISC workstation than to submit a job to a remote CRAY somewhere, where it sits in a queue for a few hours of cpu time. And debugging was a lot easier, too. I do think there are a few problems that really do require a large, dedicated system - but not very many.
Here. They're just looking at what holds together the structure of the virus.
"The White House is not an intelligence-gathering agency," -- Scott McClellan, Whitehouse spokesman.
This is an interesting coincidence because I used to reflect deeply on this exact subject a few years ago: what if a supercomputer could simulate a human ? I'll be honest here: I am literally _astounded_ to discover that this scientific team has successfuly simulated a virus. I didn't thought supercomputers were powerful enough for such a task. I just finished reading some articles about the experience and I now understand why this has been possible: they used some empirical functions instead of implementing exact physical laws (would have required much more computing power) and they also simulated the virus for only 50 billionths of a second. But still, they seem to have successfuly simulated life.
Most people don't realize the significance of this event, it means that given enough computing resources we could theoretically simulate humans ! One day we will have enough computing power to run such a simulation. And when it will be done, this human life simulation will have the potential to prove (or disprove) that humans are "just" a bunch of atoms following physical laws and nothing more.
This is huge. Think about it. I know this may sound sad, but personally I am convinced that any life form, including humans, is just that a complex assembly of atoms following physical laws, there is no soul, no afterlife, etc. This human life supercomputer will prove I am right :)