Ebay and Microsoft Fight Software Piracy

illeism writes "E-commerce News is reporting that Microsoft is going after Ebay sellers offering pirated copies of Microsoft software. From the article 'The suits do not name eBay as a defendant and Microsoft indicated that it has received extensive cooperation from the auction giant in the past as it tried to ferret out piracy. In fact, Microsoft said it asked eBay to remove some 50,000 suspicious auctions during 2005 alone ... The suits are mainly against individuals and cover alleged counterfeit sales of several Microsoft programs, including Windows and Office XP and older versions, such as Office 2000.'" More interestingly, the article flatly states that MS has no hope of ending piracy. The suits are apparently meant to 'protect consumers'.

Comments

More M$ Hooey

[TripMaster Monkey]

This article is so slanted, it's positively perpendicular.

From TFA:

Piracy is in fact becoming more dangerous for end users, with hacked or illegal versions often containing malicious code that can be used to infect PCs with viruses or to install Trojan horses that can be used to steal private data, Yankee Group analyst Laura DiDio said.

Yes, of course....this incentive is to protect the consumer...not the multi-billion dollar software giant the Yankee Group is actually beholden to. 'Won't somebody think of the children', indeed. It's clear that if you have reservations about this in any way, you are un-american and hate our children. Why do you hate our children? Why do you hate America?

Here's another gem from TFA:

Many of the suits were sparked by the company's Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) program, a program launched last year to let buyers of software determine whether it is properly licensed. Buyers who learned their programs were not genuine then helped Microsoft by providing information on the sellers.

Replace 'let' with 'force', and we might have a statement approaching truth. Checking if your Windows install was legal used to be entirely voluntary. WGA is voluntary only in the sense of 'you don't need to participate...and we don't need to give you non-critical updates'. This is analogous to a bank requiring your SS number to open an account, despite the fact that that number was meant soley for government use, and never designed for that sort of application. When asked why a SS number is required, when in fact, this requirement is illegal, bank managers invariably reply, "oh...you have every right to refuse to divulge your SS number...as we have every right to decline your account application". Same situation.

And finally:

By its own admission, Microsoft is unlikely to significantly dent the software piracy industry with lawsuits against individuals.

That depends on your definition of significant. Any headway they make is likely to save them much more than it costs, and that's all Microsoft really cares about in the final analysis....not stamping out piracy...not 'protecting the children', but enhancing the bottom line.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Alex P Keaton in da]

You can hate Microsoft all you want- But independent of that, I think it is reasonable that a company would go after people selling counterfeit products in an open forum. Look at what Tiffany and Co. is doing to Ebay.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[altoz]

Yes, of course....this incentive is to protect the consumer...

it isn't really even a consumer, it's a potential software pirate.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[jdreed1024]

This is analogous to a bank requiring your SS number to open an account, despite the fact that that number was meant soley for government use, and never designed for that sort of application. When asked why a SS number is required, when in fact, this requirement is illegal, bank managers invariably reply, "oh...you have every right to refuse to divulge your SS number...as we have every right to decline your account application

I agree with most of your arguments, but that's a poor comparison. The SSN is your Tax Identification Number (and if you're a business opening a bank account, they require your company's TIN). Interest on bank accounts has to be reported to the IRS, and banks need your SSN to do it. They're one of the few places (along with any potential employer) that has a legitimate reason to ask for your SSN.

Better examples of places that have no good reason to ask for it are your cell phone provider, electric company, cable company, etc. Yes, in some states, they can't require it and can force you to pay a deposit instead, but other states have no such protection. Even some supermarkets are asking for it for their "rewards" or "coupon" keychain tags.

Re:More M$ Hooey

[Half a dent]

True. But I have purchased DVDs and software on ebay, some are blatently copies but some sell as the real deal only to be fake - these are what piss me off.

I buy used DVDs because I don't care if I'm the first person to see it or not and I can get a title for 33% of retail this way but about every third DVD I get turns out to be a pirated copy. To be fair some of these are really high quality BUT some are filmed at the multiplex in glorious shakeycam (TM) with added foreign subtitles (non removable) thrown in at no extra cost.

I want to pay a "fair" price. A fair price for used or OEM software is not the same as a CDR with a photocopied licence code.

Good thing they're putting a stop to that!

[Rob T Firefly]

It's always heartbreaking to see people pay money for MS products.

I understand.

[Kranfer]

As a programmer, I understand where Mico$oft is coming from. I wouldn't want someone stealing my code and making a profit off of it by stealing my programs. My Question is, why does it seem that the Tri-State COmputer Show here in NY always seems to have pirated software/OEM software (without the hardware piece) for sale and they never get in trouble? Theres something fishy there... But not to digress, I think that Microsoft is doing a good thing by attempting to stop piracy.

I'm glad they are doing this..

[Tominva1045]

The upside for smaller software companies is that law governing this kind of activity is more fully developed. Down the road this may help them if they find themselves in the same situation.

Just because technology allows copying of 1's and 0's doesn't mean one should do so.

Here's a question- if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it?

Re:I'm glad they are doing this..

[Rob T Firefly]

Here's a question- if MS software is disliked by so many then why do so many pirate it?

Maybe for the same reason so many people steal cable TV service even though there's really nothing good on to watch. Most average consumers really don't see an alternative to using Windows. I keep a Windows box up and running so I can dependably run some of my favorite apps and games, the next person may have to keep Windows in order to take their Windows-based work home, and so forth. It's just too ubiquitous for many people.

Automated complaints?

[mwvdlee]

In fact, Microsoft said it asked eBay to remove some 50,000 suspicious auctions during 2005 alone.

So are these human emplyees that are manually reading, inspecting and analysing all the individual auctions, sending the removal requests by hand or is there some automated system replying to anything containing "Windows"? Is it illegal to resell your original copy of Windows?

Re:Automated complaints?

[Bomarc]

I've had my software sold on eBay pulled by M$. The claim was that the software was pirated. The ad stated that the software was genuine; CD was real w/ key, box and license. But I wasn't sure that it had all of the paperwork. M$ then claimed that this was a "Pirated" copy. I got in contact with the person at M$, and after a few words, offered to bring it over. He declined. I asked how I could tell if I had all of the advertising papers, and he said that was my responsibility. M$ has an interesting definition of what is "Pirated".

It makes sense

[DarkNemesis618]

Also realize that counterfeit software more than likely has hacked CD Keys. Microsoft does not want people buying this hacked software only to find out that it doesn't work like it should. Microsoft doesn't want that simply because it could make the customer (who was a fool to buy it on ebay in the first place) think that it's Microsoft's fault. Because then the customer would have wasted money and be pissed off at Microsoft. All debates on how good or bad Microsoft products are aside, from a business standpoint, counterfeit software can hurt any software company, Microsoft or otherwise.

The desirability of piracy

[igb]

Of course, Microsoft have an incentive to allow some level of piracy to flourish, just as cigarette companies want to encourage some smuggling from low-tax countries. The last thing that Microsoft would want is a situation where people with limited means cannot obtain Windows, legally or otherwise, and therefore instead opt to use Linux. At the moment, using Linux is a significantly worse outcome for Microsoft than people using pirated Windows. An increase in Linux use would mean a decrease in broken government websites that only really work with IE, for example, and that's a virtuous circle (from our point of view) and a rather less virtuous one for Bill. Likewise Office (in fact, far more so Office): it's worth almost infinite residential-market piracy to keep OpenOffice out of peoples' minds.

ian

Shill Alert

[A beautiful mind]

The article is by Laura DiDio - the SCO supporter shill.

You get what you paid for - it's a venomous piece.

Gotta go with Microsoft on this one...

[Gannoc]

When I was trying to sell a used Mac, I was competing with many, many auctions with descriptions like:

"Selling used iMac G4. Comes installed with, Adobe, Maya, Final Cut Pro, etc. Includes "backup" disk with "backup" copies of this software."

It included EVERY major OSX software product imaginable, and I knew it was in no way legitimate. It had to be $5000+ worth of software, total.

The retail value of the iMac G4 was maybe $1000, but the auctions were going for $1600-$2000. Clearly, people were willing to pay the extra money to get a copy of the software. I would be willing to bet that some of those people thought they were getting used legitimate copies.

This isn't fun+happy software piracy, where the 19 year old college kid wants to play with the $3000 professional video editing tools, this is a criminal selling someone else's software for profit, and I hope the hammer comes down on them...

It all makes sense now

[wile_e_wonka]

When I bought my computer off eBay, I asked the seller if it had Windows XP Pro (my school required XP 'Pro,' and not 'Home'). He told me that it does, and Office too, but that eBay shut his site down when he advertized it. I thought, that's odd... (I was so naiive).

Anyway, I bought the computer, and it came with a burned version of the resource CD, and the hard drive had images of windows XP, Office, Nero, Norton (no, I didn't install Norton!) and several other programs. Mind you this computer was cheap too. I though, wow I got a deal!

But obviously everything on here is pirated. However, whenever I download something from Microsoft, they check to make sure my copy of Windows is "genuine" and it seems to think everything is in proper order...

Resale of OEM software

[Half a dent]

It is legal for individuals (and companies?) to re-sell OEM licenses in Europe under the 1991 European Computer Software Directive.

Here is a link to the story:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/08/selling_oe m_windows_copies_you/

Europe does tend to stand up to MS no matter what Bill puts in his EULA.

With the required "call home"

[AnonymousPrick]

Is it illegal to resell your original copy of Windows?

I don't know, but with the required "call home" for many software packages, I'd be very hesitant to buy any software second hand. I'd be afraid that when I installed the second had software, it'd call home to activate and refuse to activate because there have been too many installs for that particular license.

Paying for pirated products...

[Kjella]

I must say I'm surprised at the amount of money people manage to make selling warez. I can't imagine many of these look like the real thing, I suppose it must be the "allofmp3.com" factor - you paid for it, so you've legitimized yourself. I certainly wouldn't trust anything I bought on eBay to be more genuine than the nearest bittorrent site. Without starting a "buy vs pirate" flamewar, getting it off eBay seems to be the worst of both worlds.

Pay the Danegeld, never ger rid of the Dane.

[Thud457]

Doctrine of First Sale

Goddamn corporate whores are colluding to not just monopolize an industry, but the market itself. That's just wrong.

If I'm forced to buy a copy of Windows that I don't want with my new computer, I should be able to freely re-sell that copy. (Ok, so being software, someone could make a "backup" copy and sell their original. That's not right either.)

It might be news, but it's not new.

[Peldor]

I tried to list a new-in-the-box Windows NT4 CD on Ebay several years ago. It was pulled within hours with a note stating Ebay in cooperation with MS do not permit reselling of their software except by licensed parties (and so forth).

A lot of these 50,000 'suspicious' copies are probably legitimate, you just can't sell it on Ebay because that would price the software at its true market value. First-sale doctrine, we hardly knew ye.

Re:Apply the Laura DiDio Filter

[davebert]

Or maybe you meant GrokLaw?

E-bay loves piracy

[erichf]

E-bay makes it incredibly easy for people to sell pirated software but makes it very difficult for owners of the software being pirated to stop the sellers. You have to join a program and then swear on your mother's grave and under threat of purgery that the person selling software is absolutely breaking the law and then you have to fax in documents to substantiate your claims (yes fax not e-mail). E-bay does eventually take action but they make the process as difficult as possible for owners of IP to defend their ownership. If I ran a business out of a store where I unknowingly (wink wink) facilitated the sale of stolen property, the police would still bust me and I'd find myself in court. E-bay does the same thing and somehow just waltz along with no repercusions.

Re:You don't own Microsoft software, ever

[Alex P Keaton in da]

Not more than 10 miles from where I sit right now, a student stood up to Microsoft, and won... Remember reading about this?
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/03/11/ms_zam os_ebay/
Chem student tames Microsoft's legal eagles
eBay educator wins
A not so bright Kent State University student has defeated the world's largest software company. Microsoft today dropped its lawsuit against David Zamos, and Zamos dropped his countersuit against Microsoft, The Register has learned. It seems that the public scrutiny over suing a student for moving a couple copies of software on eBay was too much for Microsoft to bear.
The US District Court for the Northern District of Ohio today revealed that Microsoft and Zamos have settled their differences after battling in court for more than two months. "The Court was informed by all parties that this matter has settled in its entirety," wrote Judge John Adams. "Accordingly, it is hereby ORDERED that this case is DISMISSED without prejudice."
Zamos - a chemistry student at Kent State - received a surprise in the mail last year when Microsoft lobbed a lawsuit his way. Microsoft was shocked to find Zamos selling one copy each of Windows XP Pro and Office XP Pro on eBay. The student had purchased the software at the University of Akron's bookstore and received a substantial educational discount, paying just $60 for the code. After deciding he didn't really want the software, Zamos tried to return it to bookstore but to no avail. He then put the software up for auction on eBay and brought in $203.
Why Zamos thought he could move educational software on the free market is beyond us, but the student reckons he saw no resale restrictions on the software boxes. This, after all, is the same student who was "arrested after sneaking across a lawn . . . with a can of spray paint, heading toward the notoriously large Bush/Cheney sign in the yard of Summit County Republican Chairman Alex Arshinkoff" and then "convicted of misdemeanor trespassing and criminal mischief," according to a report from the Beacon Journal.
All that aside, Microsoft's behavior in this matter is far more comical than that of Zamos.
Microsoft's vast team of software snoopers were quick to notice the packages up on eBay, as shown by the firm's original filing in the lawsuit.
"A Microsoft investigator sent a message to Defendant through eBay's website asking whether the disk containing the software included the phrase 'not for retail or OEM distribution.' Defendant confirmed by return email the same day that the disk did include the phrase," Microsoft's lawyers said. Irreparable injury
Zamos, however, likely did not consider himself a retail or OEM outlet. He just wanted money back so he could buy some beer on the weekend. Microsoft saw the matter in a much more serious light.
"Microsoft has suffered and will continue to suffer substantial and irreparable damage to its business reputation and goodwill as well as losses in an amount not yet ascertained," it said. "Defendant's acts of copyright infringement have caused Microsoft irreparable injury."
Microsoft sought attorney's fees and Zamos's profit from selling the software.
The whole matter took a different turn though when Zamos countersued Microsoft on Jan. 3.
Zamos lobbed a large number of charges at Microsoft - most notably that the company made it tough to return software. "Microsoft purposely established and maintained a sales and distribution system whereby rightful rejection and return of merchandise that is substantially non-conforming is either impossible or practically impossible due to the ineptness of its employees, unconscionable policies malicious intent and deceptive practices," he wrote in the countersuit.
What's this kid doing messing around with Chemistry?
Word of Zamos's battle eventually reached the main Ohio papers, and that's when Microsoft got scared. It offered to drop its suit a

But who buys them?

[TheCoders]

Ok, Office maybe, but would anybody want to or need to buy Windows on eBay? Maybe I'm out of touch with the masses, but with the abundance of Free software out there, and with Windows coming with every new PC (whether we want it or not), what's the point? Add to that the fact that you can get pretty much any piece of commercial software you want off of BitTorrent, and I can't imagine the market for used software being very big. And don't tell me the buyers don't realize that the burnt CD with the hand-written label is counterfeit. These people know exactly what they're doing, but they don't have the technical savvy to use P2P.

Furthermore, I would be willing to bet Microsoft is spending more money on these lawsuits than they save by stopping the handful of pirates they sue. Basically, this is just a PR game to try and disuade potential pirates with the threat of a lawsuit. The majority of Microsoft's profits come not from individual consumers, but companies, and most companies are not going to be buying their software off of eBay.

Listen, I have no problem with a company trying to protect its source of revenue. They sell software. That's what they do, that's how they make money, so if they want to go after those who violate the software license agreement, good for them. But don't tell us you're doing it for the consumer. You're doing it for yourself and your bottom line. Maybe if Microsoft would be a little more straightforward and just come out and admit their motivations, they wouldn't have as much of a credibility issue as they have now.