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MN Bill Would Require Use of Open Data Formats

Andy Updegrove writes "A bill has been introduced in Minnesota that would require all Executive branch agencies to 'use open standards in situations where the other requirements of a project do not make it technically impossible to do this.' The text of the bill is focused specifically on 'open data formats.' While the amendment does not refer to open source software, the definition of 'open standards' that it contains would be conducive to open source implementations of open standards. The fact that such a bill has been introduced is significant in a number of respects. First, the debate over open formats will now be ongoing in two U.S. states rather than one. Second, if the bill is successful, the Minnesota CIO will be required to enforce a law requiring the use of open formats, rather than be forced to justify his or her authority to do so. Third, the size of the market share that can be won (or lost) depending upon a vendor's compliance with open standards will increase. And finally, if two states successfully adopt and implement open data format policies, other states will be more inclined to follow."

15 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. I hope it passes by pilot-programmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is not hard to reverse engineer a proprietary format - several word processors can save in competitor's formats. So this is a symbolic gesture, but it will be good in the future when Microsoft and others copyright their file formats to try and extort money from OpenOffice.Org and others.

  2. Blue-state phenomenon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does anyone think it's significant that the two efforts are in states with "blue" histories (at least in election years)?

    1. Re:Blue-state phenomenon? by greyduk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't think it's significant at all, Minnesota was closer to being red in the latest election than almost any time in the last century. It can all be directly attributed to the Twin Cities having a very tech-oriented community, often given titles such as "Most Wireless City" and other things. Outside Silicon Valley and Seattle, it is probably the most tech oriented metropolis. This would of course have an indirectly related effect on it's political orientation as well, but partison politics really seem insignifact cause-effect wise.

    2. Re:Blue-state phenomenon? by Jason+Earl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't get too excited. If it wasn't for Governor Mitt Romney (R) ODF in Massachussets would be dead, and it's primary opponent was state senator Marc Pacheco (D).

  3. Well, by XanC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We know a hell of a lot more about ODF than we do about .doc, and that hasn't slowed it down.

  4. More openness is only a good thing. by my+$anity++0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am glad. Open Standards should be, well, the standard. If it passes there, and similar ones in other states, everyone will be able to read important gov't files without surrendering their freedom of choice, and the files will not become locked in an abandoned format. Hopefully the Federal Government will see the light.

  5. Open Standards / Open Source by orkysoft · · Score: 4, Interesting
    While the amendment does not refer to open source software, the definition of 'open standards' that it contains would be conducive to open source implementations of open standards.

    But this isn't about Open Source, it's about Open Standards, two orthogonal issues. Of course, Open Source is preferable, but it's not required to have Open Standards. Microsoft could add ODF support to its next version of MS Office (which they'll of course try to resist for as long as possible, as it'll kill their market lock-in), and it would be viable as a software supplier, but it'd have to compete on ease of use, price, robustness, etc.. It'd have to compete on its merits for once, instead of being the mandatory choice because of the current platform lock-in (even though OpenOffice.org does an excellent job interoperating with MS Office files).

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    I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
  6. Minnesota is dead on target by NatteringNabob · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The real key to any 'open standard' is that it be implementable without payment of royalties or encumberments of any kind. That is what makes ODF or Ogg Vorbis 'open standards' and MS Office formats and MP3 non-open standards. Open standards are great for consumers and voters because it means they can buy which ever standard conforming product best suits their needs, and that encourages true competition. Vendors like Microsoft will off course complain loudly, but it isn't supposed to be about what is best for the vendors, it is supposed to be about what is best for the citizens, and Minnesota seems to understand that better than most. I expect that Microsoft will go in with all guns blazing to derail this proposal.

  7. Lock-in isn't the point by PCM2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The more important point is that governments deal in records that are meant to be more or less permanent, or at minimum long-lived. Proprietary formats exist at the whim of a single supplier -- a software company -- and those suppliers are subject to the whims of the market like any other company.

    If I buy some paper from the Bienfang company and write a report on it, that report will still exist and be readable possibly for hundreds of years after Bienfang goes out of business. If Microsoft stops making a word processor or (god forbid) goes out of business, the situation may be different.

    "So what," you say, "just reverse engineer it." But what if, in the intervening years, Microsoft has successfully lobbied for laws that make that a criminal offense? We're talking about future-proofing data here; whether it's implausible is not really the point. The point is that using a closed format introduced risk.

    Another, more likely scenario: Microsoft subtly changes its format, or changes the way that newer versions of its software interprets the older format files. The government is forced to upgrade because Microsoft stops supporting the older version of the program, but the newer version does weird things to all those old records when it opens them.

    There are various reasons to choose true open formats and standards beyond ideological ones.

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    1. Re:Lock-in isn't the point by Kilz · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Another, more likely scenario: Microsoft subtly changes its format, or changes the way that newer versions of its software interprets the older format files. The government is forced to upgrade because Microsoft stops supporting the older version of the program, but the newer version does weird things to all those old records when it opens them.
      Sadly when Microsoft or any other company forces the government to upgrade. The public pays the bill. One of the nice things about open standards is that it promotes competition. That in turn lowers the cost. Saving the government money. This saved money lessens the need to raise taxes to pay for the ever rising cost of the next version of M$ Office.
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      I trust Microsoft as far as I could comfortably spit a dead rat
  8. Not a big story yet by jmorris42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thousands and thousands of bills are introduced in legislatures around the US and worldwide it is probably a million or more. Far fewer pass and even fewer of those make it th erest of the way into becoming a law. (For the civics challenged/non-US readers: In most US states it will also need a sponsor in the other legislative body, passage in both bodies and either signing into law by the Governor or another vote to override a veto.)

    It is good that such an idea is starting to bubble up, but it has yet to pass into law ANYWHERE at this point. The political power, wealth and proven tendency to resort to outright illegal measures of the Foe is going to make this a long difficult struggle.

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  9. It would nice to be more than just formats by MoogMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'd love to see it become more than just Open "Formats"... it should also include Protocols. e.g. MS Exchange. Exchange essentially locking people into using MS Outlook.

  10. OO and Semi-Permanent Objects by yintercept · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is strange how our ideals affect information.

    In the olden days, people concentrated quite heavily on open formats. Many programmers saw the data as separate from the program. In this environment, one would expect multiple programs to be dinking with the contents of a file. In such a world, maintaining and adhering to published open formats was the key to success.

    One of the ideals of OO revolution was that object would own the data. Taken to extremes that means that one object should own the data through its entire existence. Early ideas on the problem of persistence was that OO would just save the internal state of the program to the disk, rather than going through the complex task of converting the data to an open format (risking the potential that other programs would be tempted to modify the data). It seems to me that OO ushered in proliferation of proprietary formats. It definitely provided an excuse for creating proprietary formats.

    It seems to me that open data formats is contrary to the ideals of object oriented programming. However, when dealing with data that last longer than the computer, it seems naive that one object will be able to own the data.

    1. Re:OO and Semi-Permanent Objects by yintercept · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You, sir, are obviously not a programmer.

      That sounds pretty much like the same insults that were slung in my face umpteen years ago when I was trying to argue for using standardized formats for data in several projects.

      Anyway, I find it sad that so few "programmers" actually bother learning anything about the history of what they are doing.

      In "legacy programming" people pretty much saw data as separate from the program. In "legacy" programming you would generally go about a project in two steps. You would design the data format in one step and the program in another. In a project you would write and publish both documentation for the format and program.

      The problem with this "legacy" design methodology was that you have to keep your published data formats in sync with all programs that access the data. Let's say I had a data store where the lastname was 24 characters. In release 1.17, I change the lastname to 32 characters. If someone else had written a program that was directly accessing and manipulating this data; we would have a crisis.

      The bold statement of OO design was that the object owned the data. The object would have complete control of all data from start to finish. You would only publish the interface and not the data format (you would still write both documents, the latter would not be published). This ideal worked well in interface design, but fell flat when dealing with long lived objects saved to disk. Have you ever heard the phrase the "problem of persistence," or are you as ignorant as you are arrogant?

      The problem of persistence was this horrible challenge for pure OO design. No matter how you went about it, data needs to be stored, replicated and transferred outside of the control of a single program. Anyway, many of the first OO programmers took the bold statement that the object owned the data to its logical conclusion. They ended up writing programs that saved data in terse, obfuscated, proprietary formats.

      I know this happened because I was there with my little hexadecimal editor looking at the data.

      OOP was never able to achieve the goal of a single object controlling long lived data. The OO world gradually dropped its bold statement. This is the way history works.

      This long post is relevant to today's article because many OO languages still have objectStore methods that save the internal state of the object to disk. I suspect that any OO program using these object store methods are in violation of the MN law. Even though I dislike programs that store their data in bizarre formats, I don't like seeing them legislated out of existence.

      Sun and other companies use XML for object persistence. These files are more readable, but still hard to work with.

      Whether or not the lazy programmer actually documents the file format or not has nothing to do with whether or not he adheres to OO programming principles.

      Please note that I was talking about publication. Publishing a document is different from writing a document. If you hold that the the data should only be accessed through the interface, then you would not publish the file format, now, would you?

      The object-oriented paradigm is just a programming idea for how a program should be "broken down."

      I laughed when I read that line. The first OO adopters generally saw themselves as architects. The idea of "breaking things down into procedures" was part of the old "legacy" way of thinking. The OO architects build things up from objects. A person doing OOP isn't a computer programmer. When you think in OOP you are architecting systems, not programming computers.

      The really funny thing is that OOP is systematically becoming more like the traditional programming paradigms that it was supposed to transcend.

  11. Re:Are the standards ready? by denttford · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just as an aside, but the SBL isnt a religious group seeking to distribute the bible, its an very well respected academic society which publishes both books of academic interest (usually in Engligh, sometimes in German, and others) and maintains a peer journal, usually focusing on the ancient near east (not so many illuminated manuscripts, but if someone were writing on biblical translations in the middle ages, sure). That a group of historians, linguists, archeologist, sociologists, etc. might want to have a say in a document format meant to be distributable, portable, and designed to last isnt all that surprising.

    Moreover, I suspect they may have more technical insight than most - LTR/RTL, printed and script, heavy diacritical use, cuneiform, IPA and other transliteration schemes, etc. are technical hurdles they've been dealing with for quite some time now in both printed and electronic format. They have even been freely distributing a Hebrew font for years.

    Just wanted to clear that up, lest people think they are a group of bible thumpers or modern monks (e-monks?).

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