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When an Algorithm Takes the Wheel

Wired has an interesting look at Jaguar's new automated driving dynamics system in their new XK convertible. From the article: "During an extreme test of the XK's handling capabilities, the car only fishtailed back and forth once after I jerked the steering wheel on a wet road around a 90 degree turn while driving at about 60 mph. The car's back wheels swung first left then right before the XK's sensors registered a difference in torque between the rear tires and, transparent to me, righted the fishtailing effect by a combination of de-acceleration, tire rotation and vehicle weight distribution control. More often than not, the sensation of flatness, as if there were a vertical force pinning the car to the road, was also felt then and when taking less extreme curves at high speeds."

19 of 676 comments (clear)

  1. Intrusive. by DrEldarion · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This technology is great, but for the love of god, please let me be able to turn it off when I want to! If I want to give the car some extra gas through a corner and kick the back end out, don't interfere with me. Safety is a great goal, but I want to tell the car what to do - I don't want the car telling me what I can do. There are times when traction control gets completely in the way of non-spirited driving, too (like going up a snow-covered driveway).

    Toyota/Lexus is horrible about this. They include intrusive control systems and don't give you any easy way to turn it off.

    1. Re:Intrusive. by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If I want to give the car some extra gas through a corner and kick the back end out, don't interfere with me.

      It sounds like you're a great driver who knows how to control a car in a skid, so this probably doesn't concern you, but I'm quite sure the thousands of people injured by an encounter with a retard playing Michael Shumaker behind the wheel every year would have loved the car to forcibly keep the driver in check.

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:Intrusive. by smellsofbikes · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well... the absolute fastest way to stop is to hit the brake and hold it at the point just before the car starts to slide -- because sliding friction is (usually) much less than static friction, you don't want to slide, but you also want as much energy removed from the system per unit time as possible, so you want to hold the car *right* at the edge of the static->sliding transition. The way an ABS works is to modulate the force you're putting on the brake at some very high repetition rate, to approximate this maximum static friction case. So for most people (myself and 99% of all humans, excepting people who have extensive training under race conditions) the ABS approximates the ideal stopping distance but a few people can stop a car faster without ABS than with.

      That's a technicality, though. The number of people who can do this probably is in the hundreds, worldwide. (I had a friend who drove Formula 1's professionally and he could only manage to outdo an ABS about 20% of the time when he tried it.) So for real-world conditions, you're right: an ABS approaches an ideal stopping force, and allows you to A: not have great skill while still getting this benefit, and B: try and steer the car without worrying about braking modulation.

      I'm glad many cars have it, and I wish all cars had it.

      Mine works quite well in snow and mixed snow/ice/mud, even offroad. I'm really impressed by it.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    3. Re:Intrusive. by Gulthek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem is that when you LIVE life in a performance car (or, indeed, any car) it isn't just your life that is placed in jeopardy.

      The robot cars are coming. At first it will just be for safety, then auto collision evasion, then auto interstate driving, then mandatory auto interstate driving, then auto street driving in select cities, then auto street driving, then auto road driving, then mandatory street/road driving.

      Eventually you'll just be booting up the car and selecting a recent destination, bookmarked destination, or searching for a new destination with Google Auto Mapper.

      Pros: extremely high traffic density at high speed and environmental legislation will prevent cars from being used for travel less than ten miles---excepting for the elderly with an exemption (otherwise bicycles will be required, thus combating both pollution and obesity). Much higher traffic safety, particularly at rush hour and during inclement weather. Safety is maintained by a combination of centralized regional routing control and client verification of instruction (the car will refuse a central signal that tells it to drive 120mph into a brick wall).

      Cons: We don't get to drive anymore.

    4. Re:Intrusive. by Guppy06 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ah, yes, the United States, where every other driver on the road is an idiot except you.

    5. Re:Intrusive. by timholman · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This technology is great, but for the love of god, please let me be able to turn it off when I want to! If I want to give the car some extra gas through a corner and kick the back end out, don't interfere with me. Safety is a great goal, but I want to tell the car what to do - I don't want the car telling me what I can do.

      So you believe you're a better driver than the computer. But are you willing to bet the lives of your passengers, or the lives of other people on the road, that you're a better driver than the computer? More importantly, if I'm driving behind or beside your car in bad weather, am I willing to bet you're a better driver than a computer? I think not.

      Let's look at the statistics. In 2004, a total of 42,636 people died, and 2.8 million were injured on U.S. highways. In other words, more U.S. citizens were killed and maimed on U.S. roads every three weeks than have been killed and maimed in the Iraq war after more than three years. Yet society shrugs its shoulders at this level of highway carnage.

      I'll bet that many of the drivers who instigated the accidents that led to those 42,636 deaths and 2.8 million injuries in 2004 had the same thoughts: "I want to be in control of my car." "I'm a better driver than a computer." But clearly they weren't, and in many cases innocent people were hurt or killed because of that hubris.

      Finally technology is reaching the point that we can build an automobile with safety features that can help compensate for bad driving habits and bad driving conditions, and yet some people argue that they should be able to turn those safety features off. That's argument makes about as much sense as the old rationalization about not using seat belts: "My chances of survival are better if I'm thrown clear of the car, instead of being strapped in." I've heard people actually say that; of course, I'm sure none of them ever worked as a paramedic at a highway accident scene, either. It's an emotional argument, not a logical one.

      Sorry, but if you're going to be sharing a public road with other automobiles, then as your fellow driver I vote that you keep those safety features turned on. Furthermore, the statistics prove that if your car does have those safety features, you're foolish not to keep them turned on 100% of the time, even if they may cause more harm than good in some rare set of circumstances - because it's impossible for you to know in advance what those circumstances will be if you're involved in an accident.
    6. Re:Intrusive. by Miaowara_Tomokato · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For instance...the fsking gov. of LA (pre-K) reinstated the helment law in LA that we'd worked so hard to get rid of. Sure I know very well that you should wear a helmet when on a motorcycle...but, it should be up to the grown adult whether they want to wear one or not. I've often not worn one, but, that was my choice and my risk.

      Look at it this way - I couldn't care less if somebody wants to ride without a helmet; that's their decision, even if it is less safe. However, each time a helmetless motorcyclist smears themself all over a public road, the city is going to have to being in somebody clean it up, a section of road will be closed for an indefinite period due to fatality, and there will be an investigation of the wreck, among other things. This is paid for with local tax money, which I would definitely prefer went towards something else. It's also a heavy inconvenience for everyone else involved.

      So bear in mind that while you can choose which risks to take and which not to, you can't ever shake the social responsibility for how your own actions will affect those around you. That's why helmet laws keep springing back up. If a sociopath wants to get a thrill, he can find a way to do it in a manner where I won't end up paying for it.

  2. gravity by shams42 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "More often than not, the sensation of flatness, as if there were a vertical force pinning the car to the road, was also felt then and when taking less extreme curves at high speeds."

    Yeah, if only there was such a force...

  3. Not intrusive at all by compact_support · · Score: 5, Informative

    I drive a 1999 Toyota Solara SLE V6. There is a switch beside the transmission to disengage the traction control systems. I absolutely agree with you that their traction control is awful on snow. Getting from my house to the main roads through the residential neighbourhood requires disengaging the traction control and manually shifting the transmission between 1st, 2nd, and automatic. Probably because I'm too cheap to buy snow tires. A 2006 Lexus IS I looked at recently had a 3 way traction control switch: On, Off, and Snow. Apparently, Lexus agrees with us you about their performance on snow. CS

  4. Re:Safety, safety everywhere, nor any drop to drin by Loco3KGT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But assuming that Da Gooberment has an obligation to obligate safer vehicles, where do you set the bar? If a "mesh-like material" is the difference between injury and Pedestrian Souffle', why not require such a system on all vehicles? Or do I have to cross my fingers and only step out in front of cars built by Jaguar?

    When the costs of the increase in safety make it too expensive for the poor to afford even the cheapest "safe" car.

    --
    Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
  5. Washington State Drivers by WED+Fan · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think I might love this idea being fully explored. Add some more IA, a social conscience. The I-5 and I-405 will get much nicer.

    Car: DAVE, I AM SENSING YOU ARE ON YOUR CELL PHONE AND DRIVING LIKE AN A**HOLE. I AM OVERRIDING AND MOVING YOU TO THE PREDESIGNATED IDIOT LANE.

    Or,

    Car: DAVE, THE RADIO STATION YOU ARE LISTENING TO HAS LITTLE REDEEMING VALUE AND IS OVERTLY REPUBLICAN, I AM TUNING THE RADIO TO NPR!

    Or,

    Car: DAVE, FLIPPING THE FINGER AT THAT NICE LADY IN THE BMW WAS NOT NICE. I AM ACTIVATING ON-STAR AND CALLING YOUR MOTHER.

    To be honest, I still want control of my car. I'll drive, thank you. (Still don't trust ABS since I hit that deer.)

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:Washington State Drivers by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (Still don't trust ABS since I hit that deer.)

      That's logic turned on its head. So you hit a deer with your ABS-equipped car: does it occur to you that, perhaps, without ABS, you'd have hit the deer a lot faster?

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  6. Re:Safety, safety everywhere, nor any drop to drin by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well, the safest thing you can drive is probably an M-1 abrams tank, for $5,000,000, but I doubt many people would actually buy one of those even if they were available to the public :)

    They are, they're called SUVs: same weight, same mileage, same damage to other cars in an accident, it just doesn't have the big gun and the tracks.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  7. Re:Safety, safety everywhere, nor any drop to drin by TigerNut · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Well thought out safety features will save many lives on the occasions that they function effectively... However, there are many cases where safety features are nullified due to the ignorance of the driver and/or passengers, and reducing the incidence of collisions by better driver education (and proper appreciation by the driver of what they're doing) is the cheapest safety of all.

    Examples include: Proper adjustment of the seat and headrests for best control and protection; proper wearing of the seatbelt; proper use of child-safety seats; keeping signal lights in proper function and using the turning signals; Taking new drivers on a real high-speed driving course where they actually do accident avoidance maneuvers; teaching new drivers how to recognize treacherous road conditions; more emphasis on cooperative driving instead of purely "defensive driving" (which quickly turns into a passive-aggressive "I can be in the left lane because I'm doing the speed limit" game).

    --

    Less is more.

  8. Re:Safety, safety everywhere, nor any drop to drin by l2718 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, what most Libertarians realize is that you cannot govern based on emotions, and that everything has a value.

    For example, the latest just-approved medical treatment is usually very expensive (it may have cost $1bn to develop), while the treatments we had 10 years ago are cheaper, but not as effective. Should every medical plan have to cover the expensive option?

    For a more stark example, six healthy British men nearly died while participating in a safety test for a new drug. Do you think it ok for drug companies (and indirectly, us consumers) to pay for people to risk their lives for this? Or is it wrong to ascribe a value to this?

  9. Re:It will never happen, end it. by Manchot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that automated highways will eventually come to pass, but it won't be overnight. What will probably happen is that it will be a gradual process, driven by the fact that the automobile companies will want to make sure that accidents can't be attributed to their vehicles. You can already see it starting. First, we had cruise control. Then, we had adaptive cruise control. Now, we're seeing adaptive cruise control with the ability to brake, as well as cars which can parallel park themselves. As long as the manufacturers take baby steps, all possible scenarios will eventually be accounted for.

  10. Better idea than auto-driving. by danpsmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think having the vehicle control emergency systems is a lot safer than having the car completely drive itself at this point. It combines the best of what people are good at, which is being able to physically identify where they need to be on the road and maintain basic control, and what a computer is good at: namely, crunching numbers.

    Humans are worse at thinking logically in situations where they have to emergency brake, or steer, etc. and are more prone to panic. If the computer could figure out these functions for the driver, that would make driving a car a lot safer in hazardous conditions.

    --
    Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
  11. Re:It will never happen, end it. by CreatureComfort · · Score: 4, Insightful


    I will, slightly, agree with your contention that computer and human controlled vehicles will not co-exist on the same structure. However, there are already numerous examples of seperated roadways that carry automated vehicles. Las Vegas has just installed an automated busway where the buses have drivers, but in reality, the bus does 99% of the driving with the driver just there "in case" (really just there so the people on board don't freak out over no human driver). You also see more and more HOV lanes going in all over the country. It wouldn't take much to turn the HOV lanes into high-speed automated vehicle lanes.

    All of the other points in your article are merely technological difficulties, and not particularly difficult ones to solve. Solving cost effectively right now is the issue, but as technology is improved in testing and the incremental cost comes down it is almost inevitable.

    In addition, are you serious that you believe a human being in a car at night is more likely to notice a deer at the side of the road at highway speeds than a computerized hazard identification system? Let alone said human being able to take an appropriate action in sufficient time. Humans work on the order of seconds, while a decent control system will work on the order of milliseconds. This would make a huge difference in a lot of cases.

    Add to this the fact that the vast majority of drivers would really prefer to be able to get into their car in the garage, tell it to take them to work, then sit and read the paper, talk on the phone, apply makeup, etc. and have the vehicle deliver them to the front door of their office in a fast, safe manner... then go park itself to wait until they needed it again. The representative audience of /. is highly skewed to do-it-youselfers with a high level of scepticism toward untested technology. The average person who first sees an automated vehicle speeding past the congestion with the person inside drinking coffee over a newspaper is immediately going to want the same experience. (of course, in today's world the next reaction will be to hope that lucky s.o.b. dies in a fire, and he doesn't deserve it, and obviously we should raise taxes on the rich so-and-so, etc., etc.)

    Your contention that "something will go wrong, it will cost significant human life, it will be abandoned" is laughable. The system we have today kills over 45,000 americans per year. To me that's pretty significant loss of life, and not only do I not see people trying to abandon the system, I see idiots all over (in this discussion thread even) defending it in the name of "I should be free to drive like an asshat if I want to."

    --
    "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
    Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
  12. Dangerously incorrect by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 4, Informative

    > a locked tire will slow you down faster than ABS in many circumstances.

    Not only wrong, but dangerously wrong. This is the kind of incorrect belief that can get people killed.

    For car tires, static friction (i.e., when the tire is rolling) is almost always significantly higher than dynamic friction (i.e., when the tire is skidding). In other words, skidding tires brake slower than rolling tires.

    ABS makes your car more controllable; it also makes your car stop faster. This is, in almost all situations, not a tradeoff---ABS is simply flat-out better than non-ABS in all meaningful ways.