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John Dvorak's Eight Signs MS is Dead in the Water

j79 writes "John Dvorak has written an opinion piece on why he believes Microsoft is dead in the water. He discusses Vista, Office 2007, MSN and MSN search, the Xbox 360, Pad-based computing, .Net, and Microsoft's obsession with Google. "

28 of 711 comments (clear)

  1. If Dvorak is right by RLiegh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and he almost never is.

  2. The obsession with Google by RunFatBoy.net · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is where Microsoft stopped innovating. Whenever you get into a "one-up" cold war, your thinking becomes limited to finding features that are just over what the competitor is doing and not necessarily related to what makes the life of the user easier.

    MS has taken their eye off of the ball and has been concentrating on everything but the user.

    Jim http://www.runfatboy.net/ -- A workout plan that doesn't feel like homework.

  3. Doesn't matter. by gasmonso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With a 90% installbase and billions and billions of dollars... Microsoft isn't going anywhere. People are still addicted to their software and will keep coming back for more. They can sustain a lack of creativity for many many years.

    http://religiousfreaks.com/
    1. Re:Doesn't matter. by sfjoe · · Score: 5, Insightful


      In the tech industry , the market leader can lose ground EXTREMELY rapidly. Anyone seen a Hayes modem recently?

      --
      It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
    2. Re:Doesn't matter. by coolsva · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More appropriately, anyone remember Lotus123, SideKick, WordPerfect, WordStar, DBase, ofcourse NetScape, I can go on and on
      Bottom line is, this is indeed a very rapidly changing industry. As long as compatibility (and I mean more than WINE) exists, people will easily switch.
      Im not holding my breath though

  4. Mine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My #1 sign that Microsoft is going over the water at 100MPH in a speedboat while her competitors drown: 38B USD in profit.

  5. .NET is dead in the water? by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wish I could write something that is as 'dead' as .NET is. I'd be a billionaire.

  6. Wait, is Dvorak an idiot this time or a genius? by TrekCycling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh, yeah, he's always an idiot. One of the few examples of where Slashdot hypocricy doesn't happen. We can all agree a monkey with a blackboard and chalk could do a better job.

  7. And soon will come the flood by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 5, Insightful

    of Slashdrones denouncing Dvorak as a troll. Well, that might be right, but he's a successful troll. You can only accomplish that if you put enough truth and insight, wacky and wrongheaded though it may eventually turn out to be, into your communications as to make for interesting reading. Dvorak does that.

    Take this article. I don't know about all the reasons. For example, I'm not a gamer so I don't know crap about the 360. But there's something here for everyone. He says that Vista OS and Office 2007 will be problematic letdowns. He says MSN and the MSN Search Engine are essentially useless. He points out an abandoned former focus, pad-based computing. Is there anything there that's really all that nuts?

    No, there isn't. But then, like a good troll who has thrown out a couple of interesting statements to which nearly everyone can say "He's got a point," he then moves on to the provocation - Preoccupation with Google. He calls it a distraction. He tosses out opinions like they're facts. No matter how you view the relationship between Google and MS, there's something in that paragraph to disagree with.

    Thus, conversation ensues. Slashdot stories get posted. Traffic gets created.

    The man is a damn good troll and he deserves far more props (for that) than he gets around here.

    1. Re:And soon will come the flood by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Is there anything there that's really all that nuts?

      Yes.

      I'll put it this way--Sony has abandoned Betamax. They must be dead in the water. DAT was a let-down. No more movies on UMD. DRMed CDs. Time to start short-selling Sony.

      The facts on Sony's failures are not in despute. It's the conclusion, that Sony is dead in the water, that would be nuts.

      Likewise, Microssoft has made mistakes. But with huge leads in the desktop OS, web browser, office suite markets, with signifigant presence in the server OS and application markets, plus the gaming, and, oh yeah, a couple billion in the bank, I would LOVE to be that kind of dead in the water.

      Dvorak throws out some statements to which people who don't think for themselves and figure, it's on the internet it must be true, can say, "he's got a good point." For the rest of us who use our brains, he's full of shite.

  8. ENOUGH OF THIS TROLL!!! by nweaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can we please have a 6 month moratorium on NOT posting Dvorak's trolls on the front page of slashdot?

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
  9. he may have some valid points. by yagu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Six years ago I had a heated debate with a friend about what should be done about Microsoft. I was (and still am) adamant Microsoft needs legal throttling. Microsoft escaped by the hair of their chin with a fortuitous changing of the guard shortly after losing their DOJ battle (Clinton and Democrats to Bush and the big-money-friendly Republicans). Clearly the new regime had no appetite for any meaningful punishment for Microsoft.

    My friend waved his hands and said, "Let the market forces settle it", to which I pointed out Microsoft had gained so much power and momentum that market forces may have become irrelevant.

    While better late than never, I think Dvorak makes some good points, but would focus on one I think he misses the mark:

    Preoccupation with Google. Microsoft is too easily distracted by successful companies who are not competitors. There is a deep-rooted belief that if a company like Google is successful, then they are an enemy per se. So the company obsesses on what Google is doing rather than concentrating on important Microsoft projects. Now Microsoft is about to do a deal with Yahoo to flank Google. This old-lady-like skittishness is unbecoming for a company this size.

    I think Microsoft is right to worry about Google. Google has blind-sided Microsoft on yet another "it's the internet" facet they either glibly ignored, or just didn't see. Google has planted the seed that maybe, just maybe, the OS isn't going to be relevant in the future, thus allowing more free choice, and less dependence on Microsoft. Google's "proof" that XMLHTTPREQUEST can provide responsive web apps as stopgap technology (I can't believe that there eventually will be some better replacement) has spawned many other interesting companies and application.

    Some of these "AJAX" apps are downright useful, and for the casual user, can completely replace their office suites in functionality (for their purposes), and then some (remote, network accessible from anywhere).

    The amazing irony in all of this is Microsoft invented what may end up being the Silver Bullet that defeats them (XMLHTTPREQUEST). And, finally, maybe market forces will level the playing field.

    1. Re:he may have some valid points. by misleb · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Some of these "AJAX" apps are downright useful, and for the casual user, can completely replace their office suites in functionality (for their purposes), and then some (remote, network accessible from anywhere).

      You're a moron. The very idea that anyone (or a significant number of people) would want to use a browser based office suite is just... stupid. There is really no polite way to put it. Not only is the technology for it just not there, but the whole idea is just dumb. Who needs to use an office suite "from anywhere?" Do you find yourself in Internet cafes just dying to open up Excel so you can go over your employer's sales figures? Guess what? The kind of people who need to do this sort of thing already have laptops with MS Office installed. And If, for some reason, they can't afford MS Office, there is OpenOffice.

      Who in their right mind would give up a full featured, locally installed, copy of MS Office for some browser based, Javascript powered, HTML monstrosity? Say what you want about MS Office and bloat, but a browser based version would be 1000 times worse. Ajax applications only make sense when dealing with network sensitive information and services such as email, which doesn't even require ajax.

      The amazing irony in all of this is Microsoft invented what may end up being the Silver Bullet that defeats them (XMLHTTPREQUEST). And, finally, maybe market forces will level the playing field.

      No, the amazing irony in all of this (AJAX powered desktop-like appliations) is that it was already tried before with Java applets.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  10. As for Dvorak by Pedrito · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are more than 8 signs that Dvorak is a gasbag. I site his numerous rambling predictions in the past that have turned out to be wrong more often than not. He just likes trying to raise a stink to maintain his dwindling readership.

  11. Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    C'mon. He is supposed to be an "expert" but doesn't know what Groove is? Lotus Notes? Gee, John. What did Ray Ozzie do at the time he was recruited?

    MS is headed for diminshed expectation land - but Dvorak is like the IT version of Limbaugh. What a maroon.

    --
    "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    1. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The ONE thing he DOESN'T mention - also indicating he is an idiot, and has NO clue:

      The Office UI is 100% different form every previous Office version. 16 years of training - down the Toilet!

      I may be "better", but the adoption curve is huge, and the backlash will be tremendous. There is no "fallback" or "training-wheels" mode for the old Office UI - and it STILL won't render correctly under Vista. All of this has escaped Mr. Know-It-All Dvorak.

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    2. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by IntlHarvester · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For like 12 years MS hasn't changed the Office UI singificantly because of "training" issues, and everyone here flamed them for rehashing the same product over-and-over.

      Then they rethink the UI and people start going "OMG! Training!". Let's be realistic here -- a substantial portion of the userbase is still on MS Office 2000 -- companies will have at least 5 years to get ready to adapt to this, and by that time it will be quite easy to hire people who know the new UI.

      Slashdot is the kind of place where everyone thinks that enveryone should all switch to Linux/Mac/OpenOffice/Whatever tomorrow as the magic bullet. Nobody here ever seems to care about training until MS Office comes up.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    3. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by SillySlashdotName · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MICROSOFT: No, no, don't move to Linux, it is different and you will have to retrain everyone!

      EVERYONE: But what about the new Office? It is totally different, and will require retraining everyone.

      MICROSOFT: Well...Uh...that is...uh...maybe so, but at least it isn't Linux!

      --
      Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
    4. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by Luscious868 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So let me get this straight. People bitch and moan about Vista because there will be nothing new and they bitch and moan about Office 2007 because too much is new. Microsoft is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

    5. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Then they rethink the UI and people start going "OMG! Training!". Let's be realistic here -- a substantial portion of the userbase is still on MS Office 2000 -- companies will have at least 5 years to get ready to adapt to this, and by that time it will be quite easy to hire people who know the new UI.
      Slashdot is the kind of place where everyone thinks that enveryone should all switch to Linux/Mac/OpenOffice/Whatever tomorrow as the magic bullet. Nobody here ever seems to care about training until MS Office comes up.

      A new UI is going to confuse a user for all of 5 minutes while they navigate through it and find where their favorite functions are ... provided that said user had any clue what the fuck they were doing in the first place.

      Your typical go-through-the-motions formulaic user who merely repeats a set of memorized steps with no understanding of what they are doing and why may have problems, however. The thing is, if you subsidize something, you tend to get more of it. Do we really want to go to any great lengths to make life any easier for people who just want to be automatons? And is this the kind of element that we would like to see thrive in our society? Resistance to change (rather than fascination by it) and a hatred of learning (rather than a joy of discovery) also go with the package when you are talking about this type of person, not to mention they tend to be content with mediocrity as evident by a lack of a deep understanding of their skills and the tools necessary to perform them.

      What would you think about an automobile mechanic who knew internal combustion engines inside and out, but who felt that how to properly and safely use an engine hoist or a floor jack or any other machine necessary to perform his job was knowledge suitable only for the machinists who built them? Or how about a doctor who knew all about the human body but who felt that knowledge of pharmacology was only for drug companies? I feel the same way about anyone who must use a computer as a tool in order to perform their job but who feels that anything resembling a deep understanding of this tool is "only for technicians" and not only does not know, but does not want to know.

      Shit goes wrong, things happen, events don't work out as planned, programs crash, computers get misconfigured. Why the hell would anyone find it desirable to be unprepared for these things when they happen to a tool that has become so indispensable? People who give a damn about excellence enjoy learning something new each day about the things they do and the tools they use. And no, everyone can not and probably should not be a computer specialist, but when someone has been on IRC every day for the last three years and still needs handholding to register a nick, or when someone has used e-mail for seven years and has never heard of blind carbon copy, you have to wonder what the hell is wrong with them and how much it could be holding back our brightest people when they have to deal with an environment (read: nearly all of them) which caters to this kind of mediocrity.

      As an aside, if you want to know frustration, start expecting better of people than they do, based on a realistic idea of what is and is not possible. But either way, why do we support people who are willfully helpless?
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    6. Re:Dvorak is a Goofball Gasbag by IntlHarvester · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's the counter argument:

      MICROSOFT: Are you retraining everyone for something better, or are you using something that's "10 years behind" like OpenOffice.

      The idea being that the new Office UI improves effeciency and therefore has a Training ROI and isn't just gratuitiously different.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
  12. Re:The future is now! by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I wouldn't call them dead just yet.
    "Dead in the water" doesn't mean you're dead, it means you're not going anywhere fast. In a rapidly changing market that probably would be deadly, but in a world where many people are satisfied with Windows 2000 and Word 97, Microsoft can stay right where they are and continue milking their cash cows for a long, long time.
  13. Dead in the water != dead by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Dead in the water does not mean that Microsoft is dying. Dead in the water means that Microsoft is stagnant.

    For better or worse, Microsoft will be around for a long, long time. Look how long Western Union lasted after the telephone replaced the telegraph. However, what Dvorak may be saying is that the days of Microsoft being a driving, innovative, vibrant force in the computer industry have long since passed. Microsoft's stock price illustrates this nicely.

  14. you ALMOST got it by moochfish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dvorak almost had it. People here almost had it.

    Microsoft is starting to look lost because it is focusing so much attention at so many businesses that are not its core: software development. Things like MSN, search, xbox are cash sinkholes that are not what makes Microsoft the powerful and respected (well, maybe not at Slashdot) company that it is. Up to here, everybody is getting.

    But what Dvorak and most of everybody here on Slashdot is missing is that this is not a choice Microsoft has. Microsoft sees 5, 10, 15 years ahead and knows that the days of its packaged software dominance are going to end. With computers reaching the power and speed of "good enough for daily tasks," consumers are less and less likely to want to pay to upgrade to a new operating system. With the emergence of browser applications and the gradual (albiet not full) maturation of free open source alternatives to Office and Windows, Microsoft has serious looming threats in the near future.

    Microsoft is smart. It is trying to reinvent itself BEFORE the trends of technology FORCE it to. By finding a new cash cow to rely on, it can sit comfortable the day a new version of Windows *doesn't* gain wide adoption (thinking - of course - two or three versions from now). Traditionally, that cash cow was and is Office. Let's not forget many people are perfectly content with Office 97 and see no need to upgrade to the newest version. This will only become more common as the Office product matures further. And as I stated above, and with the news that ODF is now an ISO standard, even Office is no longer a safe bet *in the long term.* Microsoft execs realize this threat is not yet mature as everybody here on Slashdot wishes, but DOES realize that given enough time, their Office revenue stream will dwindle as well.

    So what happens? Microsoft looks at the current fastest growing technical market and tries to enter that race: search (Google), online ads (Google), online content deliver (iTunes). Microsoft is banking on online content distribution and services. If they're smart, they will tie their Office products with various online services to create the next generation online desktop Office applications. They will then charge a subscription fee and serve ads. THAT is where Microsoft is going. And they've got 40 billion dollars to ensure it happens.

    And what about the xbox? It's got NOTHING to do with anything. It is Bill Gate's life long dream to make Microsoft an entertainment hub. But if all the threats mentioned above come around in full force as they probably will in 10 years, this dream will probably never fully materialize. It's just the world's richest man making his company invest in his pet project.

  15. Microsoft and innovation by number6x · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Those nifty AJAXified updating stock quotes are using an XmlHTTPRequest.

    The XmlHTTPRequest was developed by Microsoft and later implemented in other browsers.

    Its been around a long time, and MS never really did much with it.

    It took a bunch of open source coders to make anything cool or useful with it.

    But MS should get the props for inventing it.

    It is the one example of innovation I can think of from them that has ever amounted to something.

    I think the fact that Microsoft avoids innovation like the plague is actually one of their secrets to profit and success.

    • Bill gates stole the code for his first basic compiler out of a dumpster at Dartmouth. Let others innovate, and just sell their hard work as yours. Kaching$$
    • Bill gates says he bought QDOS, Digital says he just licensed it. Let others innovate, and just sell their hard work as yours. Kaching$$
    • Ie? Spyglass. Let others innovate, and just sell their hard work as yours. Kaching$$
    • NT? OS/2 and VAX. Let others innovate, and just sell their hard work as yours. Kaching$$
    • Access? Foxpro? Let others innovate, and just sell their hard work as yours. Kaching$$

    Let others waste their time and money innovating. Innovation is for the losers. Wait, stall, and make empty vaporware promises, then buy someone else's finished product at the last minute and rebrand it as yours.

    It has always made them the most profitable software vendor in the past, why should they change now?

  16. Where will the giant fall? by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    How will the giant fall? If it falls on top of you then you have a serious problem. If it falls in the way, then you have a less serious, but still big problem.

    History is littered with many examples of sudden changes in power structure causing a lot of pain all around (Roman Empire, break up of USSR,...). Far better would be shift so that MS no longer abuses its power and instead becomes a contributory member of the industry.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Where will the giant fall? by misleb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look, I realize that Microsoft is big, but comparing it to the collapse of an empire is just silly. I mean, the fall of an empire has real tangible effect on people's lives. A switch of operating systems is trivial in comparison.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  17. Re:Eight signs Dvorak is dead in the water by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "1. Vista OS."

    For the developers and consumers, the coolest features are Aero Glass, Indigo, Avalon, Net 2.0 and the rest of the WinFX framework. They were ultra cool but now they are just "gussied-up" XP upgrade? Get your facts straight.

    For consumers? Really? Try Aero, but that's about it. Most users don't know what .Net 1 is, much less .Net 2.0.

    Almost anything in Vista was rebuilt/enhanced: the framework, the interface, the IP stack, the color profiles, there's actually a new advanced printing standard, the audio system, EVERYTHING.

    All under the hood... What's visible to users? More pop-up alerts for security stuff, and eye candy that looks like what Macs have had for several years. That's why Dvorak says MS is fading.

    So they dropped WinFS and a few other features for a later update, and suddenly the rest is "boring"? Gimme a break!

    No, just non-innovative. They also dropped Monad.

    "3. MSN."

    You were whining when Microsoft was slow to discover the Internet, now whining they are discovering it.

    They're "discovering it" a decade late. MSN was built to compete with AOL. Remember AOL? Yeah, they're still out there... but technically, so are Compuserve and Delphi. Why waste money on something that has already been obsoleted?

    "4. MSN Search Engine."

    Yea shit, selling ads and pocketing the money. Totally pointless, why would anyone care about this thing called uhmm, revenew... uhmm reveneu, revenue, what was it anyway? Totally pointless.

    Maybe you missed that line in the article about MS making gobs of money for years to come... but not innovating, and as a result fading in the public's mind. That's the point, not that they're going to declare bankruptcy next week.

    "5. Xbox360."

    And right now Microsoft is making and selling enough units to meet the demand. So where is the damn issue?

    The issue is that XBox is still a horrible money-loser for Microsoft, and they're not gaining marketshare fast enough for when the PS3 comes out. If Sony sells 1 million units in the opening weekend or 510k in the first 24 hours, like they did with the PS2, that's going to really hurt the XBox360. In all of 2005, MS sold a total of 1.5 million units... while Sony easily topped that in three days in 2000 with the PS2. If Sony launches the PS3 the same way, or better, the XBox360 will be left in the dust.

    Also, there are 100 million PS2s out there... and all of their games are compatible with the PS3. That's 100 million people that won't mind upgrading.

    I mean, they are just the largest software/IT company in the world, what were they thinking?

    IBM was the largest software/IT company in the world.
    Was.