Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Dell Cheating on the Direct-Sales Model?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the i-won't-tell-if-you-won't dept.

capt turnpike writes "Despite its CEO saying that the direct model is the company's 'religion', according to eWEEK.com, Dell seems to be moving away from direct sales and working with value-added resellers." From the article: "Still, 'they'll never admit it or make [the channel] a formal program,' said one analyst who asked not to be identified. 'If you look at Dell's stock versus HP's, part of the difference has to do with Dell's reputation for owning the customer. There's a sense they own the entire margin and have higher profits because they sell directly. It makes them appear more valuable to Wall Street.'"

116 comments

  1. We just bought a bunch of dell from Zones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They even beat Dell's direct sales price. Even espite the fact that Dell was cutting the price some for us because we were buying a lot of stuff.

    1. Re:We just bought a bunch of dell from Zones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now try returning those Dell purchases through Zones.

      Zones is a great place to get rock-bottom prices for Dell stuff; but you can't return Dell through Zones.

      I had purchased 3 3448P Dell PowerConnect switches; for at least $100 less than what I was quoted from our Dell rep (and we buy a lot of Dell). But I wanted to return 1 because I needed some of the cash for another project. Much to my surprise I was unable to return them because Dell products are "built-to-order" and even though these switches were stock switches they wouldn't let me return them.

      So yes you can get Dell stuff cheap from Zones; but you can't return it back to Zones and Dell won't let you return it directly.

      With that said Zones is an awesome reseller just be clear on the return policies for items you intend on purchasing.

    2. Re:We just bought a bunch of dell from Zones by ePhil_One · · Score: 1
      They even beat Dell's direct sales price

      Basically, Zones is a Direct customer of Dell. Zones "buys" a crapload (technical term) more servers than you do, earning a bigger discount. they can then resell them to you for a small markup and still make money. This can save you a few bucks, but in my experience always complicates thing to the point of silliness and can cost more in the long run.

      Now, if you getting them as a true VAR (folks installing Exchange on them for you, etc), that could work out well

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
  2. Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Dell model based on the "all capital gains, no dividends" business practice pioneered in the 1980s in Silicon Valley is 0xDEADBEEF.

    Companies like HP, IBM and Microsoft survive because they offer dividends to their investors. People get real returns: real money back quarterly that they do what they want with. Silicon Valley investors, on the other hand, are playing musical chairs and the winners are the managers of the companies who can time their exits exquisitely and dump their stock on the hapless, casual E-trade luser.

    1. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Remove MS from that list- MS didn't pay dividends until a year or so ago. I'm not sure if they still do.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by syphax · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Dell model based on the "all capital gains, no dividends" business practice pioneered in the 1980s in Silicon Valley is 0xDEADBEEF.

      I think that you are sort of right, but only accidentally. I'm talking a little out of my zone, but I think this is right (and Investopedia seems to agree.

      If a company is confident that it can take a dollar of profit, invest it in its own operations, and yield a return substantially higher than an investor could by receiving that dollar as a dividend and investing it somewhere else (accouting for risk, task implications and such), the investor is better off if the company re-invests that dollar (which would ultimately lead to a more valuable company and thus capital gains). If a company is mature and/or can't generate a lot of incremental profits from re-investing that dollar, it should kick it out to the shareholders, and let them figure out how to allocate it.

      So as Dell's growth slows down, it's ability to generate more profit through re-investment of profits diminishes (yes, it's a lot more complicated than that). So the logic dictating retaining profits vs. paying out dividends may very well change- let's see what Dell does.

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    3. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If a company is confident that it can take a dollar of profit, invest it in its own operations, and yield a return substantially higher than an investor could by receiving that dollar as a dividend and investing it somewhere else (accouting for risk, task implications and such), the investor is better off if the company re-invests that dollar (which would ultimately lead to a more valuable company and thus capital gains).


      I disagree here. I as an investor want my money used where I invested it. If I wanted 1% of my money back each year, I'd be selling 1% of my stock each year, not wanting them to have to deal with the annoyance of having to re-invest the dividends to keep my portfolio balanced the way I want it.


      Personally, I'd much prefer if excess cash was spent on stock buybacks. I think the only reason MSFT pays dividends is because that way some of the large funds that require dividends are allowed to invest in them.

    4. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      That was the signal they were sending, but most of the retained profits at especially Microsoft and Intel, wasn't reinvested in the business (it wasn't needed). It was stockpiled in low return bonds and cash instruments. I'm not sure if they could have sold the growth story as well if they were returning all the excess cash they generated through the years.
      Basic business logic was developed when factories produced physical items not ideas. MS sales of windows XP don't depend on a huge factory that needs to be expanded to sell another million units. Dell could have been paying dividends for years and would still have been just as able to grow at the same rate.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    5. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by wuzzeb · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure if they still do

      Microsoft still pays out a $0.08 quarterly dividend. I am not a MSFT shareholder, but I found out in about 1 minute of searching. For those who would like to know, go to finance.yahoo.com and type in "MSFT", click on "SEC Filings", click on the full filing for the latest quarterly report, hit ctrl-f, type in dividend. You see that they declared a dividend on March 27, 2006 payable on June 8, 2006, and have been paying a regular dividend since July 20, 2004.

    6. Re:Silicon Valley Business Model is Dead by menace3society · · Score: 1

      Here's a multiple choice test:

      1: Which one of the following people advocates firms paying dividends?

      a) This A.C. poster
      b) Warren Buffet

      2: Which one of the following people has a greater net worth?

      a) This A.C. poster
      b) Warren Buffet

      All in all, it pretty much speaks for itself.

  3. If I was Michael Dell.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "What would I do? I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."
    (Oct. 6, 1997)

    1. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by AndyG314 · · Score: 0

      This quote is constantly taken out of context. When Michael Dell said that apple was in a world of hurt. It turns out that he was wrong, but his statement was not at all rediculous when taken in context of the time it was said.

      --
      If it's dead, you killed it.
    2. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was ridiculous at the time he said it too. Apple had $6 billion in cash on the books at the time. Only Mac haters thought it was +5 Insightful.

    3. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by AndyG314 · · Score: 0
      Apple had $6 billion in cash on the books at the time.
      That would be why cashing out the company was appealing, there would be no point in cashing out a broke company. If the company has lots of cash, and you don't think they are going anyware, then why not take the money?
      --
      If it's dead, you killed it.
    4. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by amichalo · · Score: 1

      But instead, Steve Jobs decided to invest in innovation, think outside the "dull little box" and re-imagine the music distribution industry.

      That in turn drove the value of AAPL (market capitalization) above that of DELL.

      --
      I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
    5. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It was ridiculous at the time he said it too. Apple had $6 billion in cash on the books at the time. Only Mac haters thought it was +5 Insightful.

      With all that cash in the bank, that's all the more reason to cash out rather than piss all that money away on some failed business venture. Apple is actually pretty lucky to be around today. If everyone else had thought that the original iMac was as ridiculous as I thought it was, it probably would of been the end of the line for the Macintosh.

    6. Re:If I was Michael Dell.... by M-G · · Score: 1

      With all that cash in the bank, that's all the more reason to cash out rather than piss all that money away on some failed business venture.

      Except it wasn't pissed away on some failed business venture. It was invested into new products that performed quite well for the company. If Apple didn't have that cash socked away, they probably wouldn't have survived. Another case study of why a company needs to keep cash on hand and not satiate the short-term desires of investors.

  4. You can buy Dell stuff all over the place by JSBiff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just bought a new Dell LCD monitor through a reseller. I woulda been happy to buy it through Dell, but it was actually *cheaper* buying it from a reseller, go figure.

    1. Re:You can buy Dell stuff all over the place by fusto99 · · Score: 1, Informative

      That isn't exactly what Dell is saying. Anybody can go out and buy things from Dell and turn around and resell them to make money. Most likely, this guy bought a large volume of monitors from Dell, therefore got a large discount, and then sold one to you charging less than Dell, but more than he paid for himself. This is not the same as Dell hiring the guy to sell his product. Gateway on the other hand, has a deal with best buy to sell their computers in their retail stores.

    2. Re:You can buy Dell stuff all over the place by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 3, Informative

      I use Dell Higher Education (I work at a University) and they will match any other price from a Dell reseller, or another Dell department (Small Business, Home) if you want to buy directly from them - I do it all the time.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    3. Re:You can buy Dell stuff all over the place by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      You sure it wasnt just someone who bought a bunch of dell LCD's when they were cheap and on heavy discount and then sold it at a small profit?

      The dell LCD's get pretty damn cheap when you have the right set of offers going for you.

      Really though, for their computers, the direct model is really all that dell has going for it. You can buy online and get exactly what you want (though you usually pay tax now) delivered to your door for a decent price. The systems arent the quality they were years ago when they used real components but they function well for the price.

      --
      Bottles.
  5. 'Buy Dell, get 0wned'? by nicer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ...has to do with Dell's reputation for owning the customer...

    You'd be more likely to get 0wned buying a PC at the local retail park...

    --
    Will host for cash.
  6. the future? by VoxCombo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Dell's supply chain model was so innovative when it was introduced, but that competitive advantage won't last forever.

    This new "secret" channel may be their way of testing a new innovative model.

    1. Re:the future? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      To say it another way, cutting out the middle man is an obvious benefit that Dell was just the first to be able to do. Some of the older companies had various agreements and contracts with those middle men preventing them from doing the obvious.

      Time has passed and now everyone can offer direct sales. There has never been a time when all "middle men" were all useless pure-resellers. Often they value add, often they hit markets that the mfg can't reach. This is particularly true for corporate accounts. Dell uses any channels that make sense to remove excess cost to the end-user...how is this "cheating" or bad?

      It seems people are wondering why Dell's guidances are falling. The answer should be obvious: the upgrade-upgrade-upgrade cycle is broken. Other than games (largely being answered by consoles, for the worse IMO), people just don't need the constant upgrades anymore.

    2. Re:the future? by duffbeer703 · · Score: 1

      The problem that Dell built a certain level of marketshare on the direct model, but ran out of room to grow. Large companies & government like the "full service" offerings like IBM, HP, etc provide... so to get that 20% of the market, Dell had to hire corporate salesforces and partner with VARs.

      Since Dell's inflated stock price is based on growth, they're kinda fucked, just like Microsoft.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  7. I though everyone knew about this by raitchison · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is nothing new, Dell has always been willing to go through resellers even in the 1990s. There are bsiness customers who have exclusive arrangements with VARs but still want to buy Dell. The solution is for the VAR to buy and resell the Dells, though typically the price was a little more after the VAR added in a percent or two for their troubles.

    1. Re:I though everyone knew about this by antaeus · · Score: 1

      ... though typically the price was a little more after the VAR added in a percent or two for their troubles

      We have been a Dell shop for years. We've watched the quality of their support fall, and even ordering equipment can be a chore at times. But it's helpful to have a lot of hardware under one service agreement (the devil you know, etc.) We have been buying odd peripherals and software from a VAR, who recently told us they could process Dell orders for us as well. We were stunned - someone else deals with the paperwork, we get the same stuff - at better prices. Dell lets VARs do this because it helps to make the ordering process more efficient.

      I'm not sure if the whole business model is a failure, but Dell's crappy systems sure are.

  8. Where's the V in VAR? by i+am+kman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    VAR used to mean you repackaged software and hardware and sold a more complete solution. These days, HW is often bid as a commodity line item so HW VARS often simply provide the HW as a convenience to their clients. Clients know Dell's prices and that's what they expect to pay so Dell's just using this channel as an extended sales force into clients that would've bought direct anyway - who cares?

    In fact, they're successful with this model precisely because they're direct channel models is so successful. With our customers, they often specifically request Dell computers and they generally know exactly how much they cost.

    1. Re:Where's the V in VAR? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      With our customers, they often specifically request Dell computers and they generally know exactly how much they cost.

      I thought Dell's pricing varied quite a bit, depending on which division of Dell you bought the unit from, by the day of week, by the volume sold on a large order and what other discounts you've managed to fenagle.

    2. Re:Where's the V in VAR? by softwarediva · · Score: 2, Informative

      Having worked in Dell's VAR division, I can attest to the fact that very few VARs actually add any kind of 'value'. Worse, it doesn't even take much to be approved as a Dell VAR - just a signed agreement that you won't export product, sell to large Dell accounts, and that you will disclose the enduser every time you order. VAR division sales people generally have larger discretionary discounting power on the non-entry level lines; it's just a matter of finding the salesperson who will give you the price you want.

    3. Re:Where's the V in VAR? by PostItNote · · Score: 1

      It ran off with the O in OEM.

  9. Can you say "System Integrators?" by amcdiarmid · · Score: 2, Funny

    Dell has the "Direct Marketing" - and may not sell in stores... but they do have resellers: System Integrators, or Consulting firms that sign up with Dell receive something like 10-15% discound on product purchases.

    Company: I want a Dell XYZ for $1500
    Integrator: ($1500 x .13 = $$$ - $30 to actually order it = Happy Smile ;)
    Integrator: No Problem, we should order it by tomorrow.

    Plus, the Integrator/consultant that actually signs up with dell usually gets to avoid the script-monkey level of Tech Support.

    1. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by SomeGuyTyping · · Score: 1

      I'm a sysadmin and if you're a company buying direct from Dell, you skip the Level 1 support. I don't like dell's "home" product line, but their "enterprise" line is pretty nice. They keep everything standard, so I've been able to run any linux I've wanted on them.

      --
      My posts are definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    2. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by a_nonamiss · · Score: 3, Interesting
      something like 10-15% discound

      We used to move about $40k-$60k a year in Dell hardware (not huge, but not too bad for a small firm) and we got a whopping 3% discount. Not even close to enough money to cover my time spent jumping through the stupid hoops that Dell made us go through to be a VAR. Also, my "dedicated sales rep" treated us like crap. I mean, really bad. (He once told me "You don't move enough product to warrant my time right now. I'll call you next week when I'm not busy.") I know he probably gets six figure deals and we were peons to him, but honestly, with the way he treated us, I had no incentive to sell more of their merchandise. The $50k was only when people specifically asked for Dell hardware. Towards the end I stopped recommending it altogether, then we switched to other hardware providers. If my story is typical, then I can see whey Dell is sliding.
      --
      -Arthur
      Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
    3. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by rhyno46 · · Score: 0

      I don't know if your story is typical, but we move about the same amount of product. We've only been doing it for about 18 months, but our current rep is awesome.

      Previous to hitting some kind of sales threshold we went thru 3 or 4 reps (I think they were due to turn over - one of the guys was promoted). It was annoying to change reps so often, but in general they got back to us within 24 hours.

      For the most part it has been worth it for us. We give our customers the price from Dell's website (on occasion we knock it down a little to make the sale - we make most of our money elsewhere) and what they get is the knowledge that if they have a problem I'm only a phone call away. And rather than hold for 30 minutes to talk to someone, they either get me right away or they leave a message which is returned ASAP.

      We give them a value-added service by giving them the system they need which is pretty hard for most clients to figure out. The $299 system is pretty worthless in my opinion b/c you need more than 256mb Ram for almost anything. Then again, most people don't need 2GB RAM or 2 NICs (I have seen people from all kinds of vendors end up with extra components - 2 audio cards, etc.). And we decrapify the system, get updates, activate Office/AV, etc. and install it for them.

    4. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by nmos · · Score: 1

      So who are you going through now? For us hardware sales arn't a profit center, just a convienence to customers who are buying other services and frankly buying through Dell is a PITA. Unfortunately most of the other folks we've used have had inconsistant build quality.

    5. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have been having great service from Dell.

      HP on the other hand is a pain in the butt. Back in 2002 they couldn't even add vendors for around 6 months. Just recently, we had to fill out some additional forms that they couldn't seem to actually figure out themselves and it took a month. Not buying HP again. Have been using HP servers for a long time and they are good. The service is just insanely bad.

      Dell just gets it done for us. HP is the PITA.

    6. Re:Can you say "System Integrators?" by SomeGuyTyping · · Score: 1

      You should have called that asshole's manager and told him you wanted a different rep. The Dell reps work on a funny commision system, but it's still based on what they sell.

      --
      My posts are definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
  10. Check Costco for occasional big Dell discounts... by klubar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've occasionally found good prices on Dell equipment (including laptops and monitors) at both Costco online and in the Costco stores. Their prices are often 15 to 25% lower than Dell direct (but probably still more than the lowest Dell corporate sales prices).

    Of course, no custom configurations...but the product does ship directly from Dell with Dell warranties.

    For some reason, Apple seems to dump EOL equipment thru Costco too.

  11. Re:Direct to U! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    please kill youself.

  12. build your own by celardore · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I think that it should be basic high school education to learn to build a PC. Heck, the course would probably only take a week and would be useful for some time.
    I taught myself to build computers, and I look upon it like a jigsaw puzzle for 5+ year olds. It's very hard to do something wrong. And there's only one piece (usually) for one hole. (Save for the tough processor clips)

    Granted building your own box still takes more time than just taking one out of the store, but it's only like an afternoon if you're even only moderately experienced. For that afternoon of light work you can save yourself a couple of hundred bucks at least.

    I've made probably a couple of grand building machines for people over the past few years. Cost to me: Nothing but a few hours.

    People should get smart and start building their own machines, it's far more rewarding. Apologies if this is offtopic or trolling, but it's something I believe should be more commonplace than it is.

    1. Re:build your own by realmolo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Blah blah blah.

      Building your own PCs isn't any great skill. Anyone can do it. But there's really no REASON to do it. It's *cheaper* to buy the pre-built machine from Dell. Building your own PC almost never saves you any money, and hasn't for years. Seriously, can YOU build a complete PC, with a monitor and a legit copy of Windows, for $400?

      Now, once you start spendig BIG BUCKS on a PC, then it can be cheaper to build your own. Sometimes.

    2. Re:build your own by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's not a troll, but it's offtopic. Anyway yes, computers are easy to build but they don't come with support. Unless you have the troubleshooting skills (which you may need during your first start-up if you have bad components, or driver problems) you should not build a PC, you should buy one, from someone like Dell.

      Also, the fact that computers are easy to assemble is a new phenomenon. Before ATX you could hook your power cables up wrong and fry everything in your system. These days, as long as you put stuff where it fits, things tend to work. Hell, most motherboards I've messed with in the last long while will even let you put your RAM in any slots you want, now that's nuts :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:build your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In the 90's and maybe even the early 00's you could build your own machine cheaper, but I no longer believe this to be true. Lately I've found that it would cost me about the same amount of $$ to build a PC versus buying one from Dell. Especially when you're bundling monitors and such, there is no possible way to save hundreds of dollars rolling your own, sorry.

      Also, it's one thing to be able to assemble a computer from commoditized parts, but it's often a whole another thing to be able to get the parts working together optimally. Add in the fact that most people want tech support for the warm fuzzy feeling, and it just doesn't make sense for most people to build their own.

    4. Re:build your own by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ahh, you younsters. In my day, when I wanted to build my own computer, I had to get individual ICs, resistors, diodes, capacitors, etc... You have it too easy, just slap a preassembled motherboard in a premade case and poof, a computer.

      Ok, ok, my first computer was actually a Heathkit, all the parts came in bags, and there were detailed instructions and troubleshooting guides. But I know a guy who put together his own Z80 based computer just by reading the spec sheets.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    5. Re:build your own by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The reason to build your own PC is choice, not about saving money - you get to pick each and every component that goes into the machine, and you end up with exactly the machine you want, rather than having to select from a limited list of options. The result is a machine that meets your needs much more closely than a pre-built machine, and that translates to a machine that is a great value.

    6. Re:build your own by westlake · · Score: 1
      it's something I believe should be more commonplace than it is.

      The appliance model, home delivery, no assembly required, service under warranty, is what sells Dell to the middle class.

    7. Re:build your own by deamonpainter33 · · Score: 1

      building your own pc is not just some "lets put together some legos and see if it works" kinda thing most of the time. you can go out and hand pick your parts and still run across a bad say...IDE cable and not know why the hell it won't boot. those type of people need to stay away from building and just go to that retail store ...get that HP or Dell and if it breaks...you have a WARRANTY. now parts manufacturers do have there own warranties on there parts but...what common person want's to wait weeks on end or months for a part that may be defective for a fix or replacement? computers aren't cars people. yes conveniences in technology made things alot quicker but for now...leave the building to the curious and the techs like myself :) it keeps us jobs down in the future too if you think about it. i mean if all my customers knew how to troubleshoot...and fix and repair problems, i would eventually be out of a job. no one would come to the "TECH" and get it fixed cause now they're the tech. think about that one guys...

      --
      "In the kingdom where everything dies, the sky is mortal."
    8. Re:build your own by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1
      Building your own is only proffetable if you do it in the "underground economy". If you have to pay rent on the facility, pay payroll and payroll taxes buy insurance, bussines licenese, pay income tax for the bussines and on your salary and so on and so on then you would find it would be cheaper to simply do all this work in China and deliver compleed units to people here.

      But yes, building one computer might save you money but building 10,000 willl cost you a lot more money. Bussiness don't buy one computer.

    9. Re:build your own by rhyno46 · · Score: 0

      A lot of people say to me, "I'm sorry I'm so computer illiterate." to which I respond, "I don't (sell real estate, build homes, climb mountains, whatever my client does) but I do fix computers. You shouldn't feel bad about not knowing, just let me help you learn what you need to make your life easier."

      For most people, their time is more valuable than taking a chance at screwing up a computer - especially if their computer earns a living for them.

    10. Re:build your own by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I don't need any of these:

      keyboard
      mouse
      monitor
      speakers
      crappy sound card
      crappy onboard ethernet
      crappy custom case and power supply

      I don't need 3/4 of their 'system'. I either have good components and just need a new 'cpu' (mobo, cpu, ram, maybe case+ps). but buying dell often means a lower quality video card and all the rest.

      in the end, its MORE expensive to buy their stuff. unless you are starting entirely from scratch and have no components at all to start with.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    11. Re:build your own by dodongo · · Score: 1

      To sister comments, the above post isn't about you building your own system because you enjoy it. And honestly, kids, the value-added reseller game isn't about selling quality parts anymore, either.

      This isn't a scandal on Dell's part; they've made their bed (creating the idea that a low- to mid-range computer should be as cheap as you can get them from Dell), and now they're turning tricks in it (whoring their cheap low- to mid-range computers to VARs), because it makes sense for them (they sell more computers) and it makes sense for the VARs themselves (try building a low- to mid-range computer and adding 15% margin -- you just can't sell 'em).

      It's Dell's shifting perceptions that computers, which used to be considered reasonably priced up in the $1200 - $2000 range down to where an $800 computer is exhorbitant for a lot of people.

      YES -- you can make a computer yourself and enjoy it. I've built my own for years now.

      YES -- you can build out of higher-quality components as a DIY job.

      HELL NO can you sell for a satistfactory profit, to families and SOHOs, computers which Dell moves to market for under $600- $800.

      So they sell VARs (of which I used to co-own one) the same crap they sell everyone else, the VARs can tweak or customize if they want, the VARs sell the same piece of crap to the customer *and* the VARs are backed by the 1 year warranty Dell sells by default.

      How in the world, with a situation like that, could you not sell Dells as a VAR?

    12. Re:build your own by toddestan · · Score: 1

      In the 90's and maybe even the early 00's you could build your own machine cheaper, but I no longer believe this to be true. Lately I've found that it would cost me about the same amount of $$ to build a PC versus buying one from Dell. Especially when you're bundling monitors and such, there is no possible way to save hundreds of dollars rolling your own, sorry.

      It's pretty much true that you can take any random Dell, and so long as it isn't a high end machine, the comprable machine built out of components is going to cost about the same or more. If it's a low end machine, you aren't even going to get close to matching Dell. On the other hand, when I build a machine that does what I want it to do, I find that the Dell that will allow me to do the same thing costs a bit more - usually due to me having to buy stuff I don't want or need just to get the stuff I do want. For example, you actually have to move quite a bit up Dell's line up to get a computer that uses a DVI connection to the included monitor, whereas DVI out on a computer I build would only add $0-$40* to the cost.

    13. Re:build your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a system builder. I can't beat Dell in price, but what I do beat them in is support and actually quality. I build with a minimum of 512mb ram. For those that buy locally I do a year of on-site service and support for my systems, I make sure the machine is updated and locked down before it is delivered (personally).

      People are starting to realize at least in my area that my systems are better in the end. I started in 2003 and my custom system sales have doubled each year. Last year I built 7 computers. So far this year I am on number 5.

    14. Re:build your own by dodongo · · Score: 1

      We were in a similar situation as you, but probably wound up growing a bit too big for our britches, and wound up getting (financially) over our heads, thinking we could grow the business better with a physical location, advertising, etc. It was a risk, it didn't work. Eh.

      Best of luck to you in your endeavors as well. I have no interest anymore in maintaining other people's computers, so I quit building altogether for people other than immediate family. For those of us who "get it", your computers are most definitely the better pieces. Hopefully you'll have better luck than we did in helping people "get it" :) The best to you!

    15. Re:build your own by angrykeyboarder · · Score: 1

      I bought a relatively high end (at the time) gaming PC from ABS Computers (December 2004).

      I spent $2600.00 on it. I've glanced at the price of individual parts (at their parent company which happens to be the geek shopping haven known as Newegg.com) and based on my preliminary findings, yes I could indeed have gotten the parts for less money than what I paid having them put in a PC they built for me.

      For example, I noticed my video card (NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT) was about $80.00 less at Newegg. But here's the deal: Are you ready, willing and/or capable of building your own PC? I'm not. So, I'm willing to spend more to pay someone else to do it. Heck, a year later, I ordered more RAM and extra hard drives from an online retailer (not Newegg) and then took them and my PC to a local shop for the installation. I'm a software person, not a hardware person. I'll reformat your hard drives and install two Linux distros, FreeBSD, Solaris, Windows XP and and additional software for you, but don't ask me to pop the cover off and do anything there.
      I'm all thumbs in that department.

      I am music to the ears of the online PC retailers. There has to be a lot of people like me out there.

      --
      Scott

      ©20014 angrykeyboarder & Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
  13. Feeling the squeeze by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The growth of the PC Hardware market is slowing. Dell's sales aren't going to increase if they don't get into the retail sales market (particularly as they lose market share to HP etc as mentioned in TFA), and the only way for them to do that effectively is through resellers.

    Anecdotally -- my employer (~90 employees) typically leases computers; at end of lease, we either buy at $1 or return if we have FMV purchase option instead on the computers. Past two years, we've not been leasing new boxes except for the art/design teams who need Macs. Instead, we've been replacing individual boxes as they go.

    We're still getting Dells -- but now getting them through a VAR (Zones and/or PCMall, if you're curious). Since we're not buying 20+ PCs, it's more expensive to go through Dell than through the VARs -- and honestly, more of a PITA, since the VARs bend over backwards for us.

    There are a ton of companies like mine, and Dell would be moronic to not want our business. If Dell needs to sell indirectly to get the business, they'll continue to do so.

    Of note, though, we still buy our service contracts direct from Dell -- and that's where they are making a ton of cash off us. And the poor VARs aren't making anything off us except for when we buy peripherals, since the margin in the boxes is almost zero, and we're going to Dell for the service contracts.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:Feeling the squeeze by Isaac-1 · · Score: 1

      Let me start this off with saying I have been buying mail order computer for close to 20 years and have never been a big Dell fan. I disagree with the idea that they are in trouble, Dell has almost trained the guy on the street to pick up the phone and order a Dell when he is shopping for a computer. The price/performance numbers are just too nice, at work we recently purchased a handful of low end notebooks for a our salesmen (Inspiron B120/B130 Celeron 1400, 60 gig HD, 512 Meg Ram, DVD/CDRW drives, etc) complete overkill for looking at PDF's and inventory levels, we paid under $450 each delivered. These same units are now selling on Dell's outlet page "previously new" not refurb for $409 before discounts. Last summer during their big back to school discount promo I recomended a basic Dell desktop to my parents to replace their old P3 system, it was under $400 complete with flat panel display, etc. Last week I bought from Dell for the 1st time, a mid level notebook for my son to take to school when he moves off next month. It was a refurb off Dell's outlet page, and not the cheapest there, still for $700 it has a Pentium M 1700 mhz, a gig of ram, 60 gig HD, wireless, ATI X300 128 meg video, wireless, etc. Go find anything that comparable with that price that comes with any kind of warranty (the various loading dock specials don't count).

      Ike

    2. Re:Feeling the squeeze by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Not saying Dell's in trouble -- just saying that the market is no longer growing as fast as it has been. Dell doesn't want to maintain the status quo, they want to increase their sales.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  14. Dude... by Churla · · Score: 4, Funny

    Dude... YOU'RE GETTING a sliding percent markdown based on your volume of purchases and need to bundle office software in a corporate environment !!!!!!!!!!!

    --
    I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
    1. Re:Dude... by Desolite · · Score: 0

      i know that kid, turns out hes a coke head.

  15. Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both of whom will go down the toilet when people figure out the scams Sergei and Steve are pulling. The founders made a pile of money but will the buy and hold forever investor make money? Probably not.

    MSFT's been paying dividends for over 3 years including a hefty special dividend.

    MSFT has made the transition to a real company and has an attractive PE of about 18.

    1. Re:Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The founders made a pile of money but will the buy and hold forever investor make money? Probably not.
      More significantly, will the buy and hold forever investor make as much money as even 4% bank interest compounded? The latter can be federally insured principal. 1.04 ^ 5 = 1.21, ie 20% return in five years, with no chance that your investment will be worth less in hard dollars than when you put the cash in (though inflation might move faster, so a foreign currency might be more stable). With stock, there's a chance your investment will be worth less than the day you traded dollars for it. However, you have to remember that no one buys GOOG to make a quick buck, and I would assert that a lot of people invest in Google without too much concern for whether later the market values the paper (stock certificate) lower or higher.

    2. Re:Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by ePhil_One · · Score: 1
      will the buy and hold forever investor make as much money as even 4% bank interest compounded?

      The buy and hold investor historically makes 15%, including down years, avraged accross all stocks. The Bank interest investor does not make 4% typically, rates have been as low as 1% or worse as recently as 2 years ago. Just because some hot shot internet startup bank is offering 4% to lure money into their venture doesn't make it a "bankable" number.

      People who lost their shirts in the Dot Com crash were buy and holder buyers, they were fools chasing the quick buck. The buy and holders were telling everyone investing in a company with a 600% P/E was crazy, but nobody listened over the roar of the quick buck. These same people are chasing Google and real estate now, knowing its a game of musical chairs but unable to stop.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    3. Re:Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      The buy and hold investor historically makes 15%, including down years, avraged accross all stocks.

      I call bullshit. You're saying that even on down years, the average stock goes up 15%? I don't think so. You might (and I mean *might*) get a number like that after analyzing a select group of stocks (S&P 500?) for a limited timeframe, but hindsight is 20/20.

    4. Re:Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to defend 15% specifically, but look at 20 trend. Not year by year. If my money is at YX after I put in X after 20 years what is the average I made per year over 20 years. I have several stocks that on the 20 year average are 15-20%. Any given year it varies from 6% to 30%. Buy and Hold is a long term, trend based strategy. Not a year by year average.

    5. Re:Who's missing is AAPL and GOOG. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You're saying that even on down years, the average stock goes up 15%?

      No, that if you average accross a long term (10-15 years, usually starting at a random place and including 1 each of the boom and bust cycle), on average, stocks go up 15% (I may be off on the exact figure, but its WELL above savings account interest). The data is public, you can run the numbers yourself, we did it in class as a exercise while earning my MBA. You can pick the start and end point to tweak your numbers, and cetainly if you are motivated to you could "lie with statistics" and quote 2000-2002 to show stocks on average lose 50% of their value, or quote 1997-2000 and show stocks gain 50% or more. But pull out to a big picture and those numbers settle down to what we call a "trend".

      Best off all, these days you can invest in a Fund which will do the work of spreading your investments out for you, in a way you really couldn't without large sums of $$$, reducing your risk even further. Personally, I like being in control and my personal record is around 30% gain on average each year, though I know I'm at greater risk as a result.

  16. Direct-sales cheating by kaufmanmoore · · Score: 1

    One of the rent-to-own places sells dell computers, i think its Aaron's, they advertise them and they are about double what you should be paying.

    1. Re:Direct-sales cheating by dracphelan · · Score: 1

      The overall cost of everything at rent-to-own stores is higher. However, they are willing to take a risk on people with no or horrible credit. They offer free delivery. They will repair or replace any items that break. And, if someone should have to return something, the renter can use the money they paid later on for something else. For those who can not get credit any other way, they are a good alternative. When your fridge has died, and you have no other alternatives, they will get it to you ASAP. Like all other forms of financing, they have their plusses and minuses. (Speaking from experience)

    2. Re:Direct-sales cheating by dufachi · · Score: 1

      Try about $3000 bucks for the low-end $499 system Dell offers. It's a shame that people don't realize that if they save the weekly payments for 3 months they could buy direct from Dell the same thing they're paying $40/week for 2 years for.

      --
      -Kinsey
  17. Normal by ak-74 · · Score: 0

    That's perfectly normal. Resellers buy in bulk, get 25% discount, sell to other resellers at 15% discount, then it gets to you a little cheaper.

    It's all about the risks of stocking up and the beauty of specialisation.

  18. Two critiques to your post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. A dying retarded monkey could build a computer from components. It's not that hard. A simple diagram is all you need.

    2. Said dying retarded monkey knows that you used to be able to save a lot of money by buying components but prices have dropped so much the savings is little to none.

    1. Re:Two critiques to your post by celardore · · Score: 1

      1) I know a LOT of morons 2) At least where I live, it's still cheaper. The only gotcha is the monitor.

    2. Re:Two critiques to your post by zakezuke · · Score: 1

      1) I know a LOT of morons 2) At least where I live, it's still cheaper. The only gotcha is the monitor.

      And software. Let's face it, it would be hard to piece together something with a monitor and windows for $400. I'm not saying you can't do it, and i'm not saying you'll end up with a better product, but given that a motherboard worth it's salt costs about $100, a cpu worth it's salt is about $50, and windows it self is about $100, plus case, monitor, side of ram, and drives. And lets not forget trivial items like mouse, keyboard, speakers.

      I "could" shop compgeeks, pickup a mb/cpu combo for $120.. a semptron 2800+, but even then we would be talking about $400+ vs $356 shipped from dell ready to go. Even going linux the Dell is a pretty good deal, very tough to beat.

      You could go parts, but odds are it'll cost you more. The only way it wouldn't is if you happened to have all the extra trivial hardware laying about, bought things on closeout, or got crap handed to you. But assuming new parts, with full warranties... Dell tends to cost less.

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
  19. Re:Check Costco for occasional big Dell discounts. by kaufmanmoore · · Score: 1

    I saw a mac mini G4 for full price at Costco a couple of weeks ago, had to hold in my laughter.

  20. Owning the customer, eh... by frosty_tsm · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Don't brand the cattle, brand the buyer; he's the one more likely to stray."

  21. Yeah, I got owned by geobeck · · Score: 3, Informative
    ...part of the difference has to do with Dell's reputation for owning the customer.

    I think they mean pwning.

    Last year, I bought a new Dell workstation for work, the first of several workstations we were going to evaluate to replace our aging machines. Price on website: $1300 and change. But the website was flaky, and I couldn't complete the order. I called, got an "account manager", who took the product numbers I had written down from the website, and we ordered it--only to have the total come to $1400 and change.

    I called back to complain, and the account mangler very rudely refused to do anything to help resolve the situation, boldly lying about one of the options I had purchased as an add-on supposedly being included in the base price. Eventually he said, "I don't know what you expect me to do about this," and wouldn't say anything else.

    Needless to say, today we are an all-HP shop. We have a local reseller who provides excellent on-site service, and who I can reach directly; no IVR, no switchboard; I call my tech directly.

    This site will never buy another unit from Dell.

    --
    Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    1. Re:Yeah, I got owned by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      Needless to say, today we are an all-HP shop. We have a local reseller who provides excellent on-site service, and who I can reach directly; no IVR, no switchboard; I call my tech directly.

      I have HP equipment and can say the same about support.

      HP has the best support staff and excellent equipment (higher end for me).

      I'm a very happy customer, but they make it hard to buy their equipment for some reason, maybe I need to find a reseller?

  22. I really don't want to sell Dell, but... by Wiseleo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When a customer flashes an ad at you with a $399 (after rebate) system complete with XP Home and a 19" LCD, what can you do?

    My experience with Dell servers is not positive. Call it anecdotal, but I see amber lights on Dell equipment more often than on every other piece of equipment in the datacenter. This is true for Dell shops and mixed shops. This is also true where there are only maybe 2 or 3 servers from Dell in the mix of other stuff.

    Motherboard failures, PERC failures etc...

    When I sell an HP server, I sell something that I can trust. The truth is, however, that corporate desktops are throwaway boxes. I don't care if one of them dies and keep a spare at hand.

    --
    Leonid S. Knyshov
    Find me on Quora :)
    1. Re:I really don't want to sell Dell, but... by olddotter · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. Are your customers running $399 desktops with XP home in their datacenter?

      --
      Think Deeply. ...
    2. Re:I really don't want to sell Dell, but... by Wiseleo · · Score: 1

      You are not confused.

      Two issues are discussed.

      1. I won't sell Dell servers unless not doing that will cause me to lose a deal. I'll assist my customers to order from Dell, but I don't see a point in having a channel relationship with them like I do with HP. I've talked to enough Dell resellers...
      2. I I have a really hard time selling HP workstations when Dell basically gives away their equipment. Corporate hardware is overkill for most users, so it simply doesn't matter. I have to explain that there are no warranties to speak of etc, but at less than $200/box, who cares about some warranty? A 19" LCD is what they want and I don't blame them. Why is XP Home a valid point here? We enroll desktop OEM licenses into Software Assurance and usually sell a Platform CAL, so XP Home OEM actually makes sense in this comparison.

      --
      Leonid S. Knyshov
      Find me on Quora :)
    3. Re:I really don't want to sell Dell, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060 407

    4. Re:I really don't want to sell Dell, but... by SquadBoy · · Score: 1

      "High availability enterprise solutions specialist"

      Hooray for buzzwords.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
  23. This is the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dell doesn't actually market their product through resellers (meaning they don't go out and search for people to resell their equipment) but they do offer certain customers a discount and allow them to resell their equipment. I know this because i actually work for one of these companies http://www.eztradelive.com/. However the business model is not designed to allow the end user to cut their costs as much as it is the small business community. I think it's a pretty good business plan. The customer is still loyal to Dell and Dell is still making money, plus it stimulates the economy by allowing small businesses like ours to sell Dell machines to other small businesses at a reduced price.

  24. BYO is only half the battle though by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 1

    Assembling the computer is simple; slide in, screw in, lock in, snap in, done.

    It's the remaining part that is hard:
    1) Power up; diagnose any problems that prevent a full boot (bad RAM? bad motherboard? bad BIOS setting? bad HDD? bad ODD?)
    2) Install the OS; diagnose any problems that prevent a full install (motherboard drivers? GPU drivers? drive controller drivers?)
    3) Boot the OS; diagnose any problems that prevent a full boot (bad configuration? out of date drivers? bad component?)
    4) Install additional drivers; diagnose any problems that occur because of the new drivers (bad GPU driver? bad audio driver?)
    5) Patch the OS; diagnose any problems that occur because of patch incompatibilities (CD-RW doesn't like the new patch? network stops working after the patches?)
    6) Install the applications; diagnose any problems that occur because the OS wasn't properly configured (networking not working? firewall not working? CD-RW not working? GPU drivers misoptimized? antivirus not working?)

    The above is the hard part about putting together a computer. The easy part is physically assembling the computer.

    --

    GPL Deconstructed
  25. maybe someone elses sales force wouldnt suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I put an order in for a dell laptop i cancelled it a day later.

    first I got a phonecall at 9:38pm leaving a voice mail to call a number that was so badly pronounced that I couldnt make it out at all. (an email might help the language problem) Then the next day after calls at 9am and 2pm to dell to find out what the phone call was about they promised a call back but didn't.

    Then in the evening I recieved a call from Dell wanting bank details (already given on the website) Then I asked if I could pay of the finaance early to which i was given a phone number to a closed office.

    At which point I finally had enough and emailed to cancel the order.

    Dell have some plus points they will allow you to customise your order so i was getting a 6 cell instead of a 4 cell battery xp pro on an actual disk and built in wifi.

    however the finance deal they wanted me to sign was 29% apr over 4 years with punitive penaltys if i wanted to pay off early.

    this effectively doubled the cost of the laptop.

    over all i have been less than impressed with Dell however many other companies are as bad if not worse. Ask for XP Pro instead of home they want a massive upgrade price (3 x as much as Dell) want higher base memory they will not change it (they will charge a high price to put a 2nd bank in)
    Dell charges more for a Hard drive upgrade than buying another hard drive(retail seperately). In the order i was placing I was forced to accept a laptop containing MSworks (or pay more for Office) also Norton AV was also pushed down my throat
    I prefer open office and AVG.

    Maybe I am just a difficult customer but surely there are companys with english speaking sales staff and are willing to supply a laptop with a good size battery and a disk with the operating system on it.

    maybe Dell resellers will be successful in addressing dells issues with out sourced sales staff.

    1. Re:maybe someone elses sales force wouldnt suck by thetelecomdirectory. · · Score: 1

      Dell has had management issues the last 2 years and will continue to drive sales down because of fierce competition. Dells are overpriced because of the support network.

  26. Rent to own crooks by miller701 · · Score: 1
    One of the rent-to-own places sells dell computers, i think its Aaron's, they advertise them and they are about double what you should be paying.

    EVERYTHING at "Rent-to-own" stores is like that. For some reason people find it easier to pay $13/week for two years for a furniture set instead of setting aside the same amount for one year.

    Just another example of the poor being kept poor by lousy decision making skills. Another example is trailer houses that are so cheap to live in, but heating costs $650/month in the dead of winter, which enought to heat a small, well-insulated home for an entire season.

    1. Re:Rent to own crooks by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1
      I knew someone who lived in a trailer and it wasn't cheap. Between trailer payments and space rental it was more than I paid for a small apartment. This was in Santa Barbara, so heating wasn't a big deal.

      It never made sense to me. It cost more than renting, and after 30 years you have a broken-down worthless trailer that costs $400/mo just to exist.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  27. Re:Check Costco for occasional big Dell discounts. by uthanda · · Score: 3, Informative

    I saw the same thing too, however it was actually a decent deal. If you looked closely, yes it was an EOL machine, but the price did include AppleCare. It's about $150 or so for a Mini, I think, so subtract that from the price and it's not as bad a deal as your laughter would indicate.

  28. The Bribe factor. by sjwest · · Score: 1

    A Company I worked with bought dell pcs via a reseller (refurbed) like this way before, would i buy a dell pc (with microsoft tax) no.

    Dell pcs where ok, its paying the Dell 'Billy Tax' that I'd rather not pay that or $100 to put it in a box f**k off.

    Thats when a reseller has influnece - web pricing might be good for 1 off suckas, but multiple boxes its plain dumb. While I dont respond to bribes there are reseller out there who had to bribe government it employees with ps2's/xbox sort of thing to sell to them. - I see no box for free bribe on the dell website. There might be big programs on Dell, but I bet the 'wheres my free xbox' checkbox is still missing there too as well.

    No - I'm not a dell fan.

  29. wong V by RelliK · · Score: 1

    Easy. Say before the VAR got involved the system cost $1000. VAR sells it for $1200. That $200 is uhhh.... "added value". See how it works?

    --
    ___
    If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
  30. Woot sells Dell stuff all the time! by Mewtwo · · Score: 1

    ...they just can't put the Dell logo on the website. If you ever see "Mystery brand Speakers" on Woot sometimes, they're actually Dell speakers. There's just some law/rule/corporate BS preventing them from actually putting the name up there. They can do everything short of that; even in the description, it says "Dude, you're getting speakers!" So Dell's been doing this for at least a year.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 SU CK IT MP AA
  31. Not for long... by The+Spoonman · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...we've put an official decree down that we're not buying their crappy, crappy crap anymore. We finally convinced the higher-ups that when they save a couple of hundred bucks on a server, they lose it all in downtime. Who'dathunk you had to explain money to accountants?

    --
    Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
    http://www.workorspoon.com
    1. Re:Not for long... by alienmole · · Score: 1
      Who'dathunk you had to explain money to accountants?
      Actually, that's a pretty common requirement. The job of accountants is to record money flows, and partly because of the antiquated way in which they do that, they're often very bad at understanding the relationships between transactions.
  32. here's the problem by scronline · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When you base a company's "value" on their stock price and not on the product(s) they produce and the service/support they give said products you're making a HUGE mistake and you will probably end up getting fleeced sooner or later.

    Nothing more to really say, I'm sure everyone reading this has had trouble with Dell support by this time.

  33. Re:Check Costco for occasional big Dell discounts. by sshoop · · Score: 2, Informative

    If it is the same one I saw, it not only included AppleCare, but a wireless keyboard and mouse as well. If I wasn't saving my pennies for a FrontRow Mini to use as a media center, I may have picked it up.

  34. Re:Check Costco for occasional big Dell discounts. by stefanlasiewski · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are the prices at Costco lower then Dell's weekly 30% off sales?

    I just purchased an E1505 directly from dell.com . It was several hundred dollars cheaper then the comparable models at Costco.

    The Dell deals really require some understanding of the Dell rebate process, and close monitoring of the different deals. It's a little sleezy. I missed a $585 off coupon the other day when it expired at 10:00:00PM Pacific Time. I missed the coupon by 30 seconds (I entered my credit card number, hit submit, and the price on the _very_last_ confirmation screen jumped by $585. Dell support also closes at 10:00PM, so I couldn't call anyone.

    Costco doesn't have this headache.

    --
    "Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
  35. I thought they kept sliding by amcdiarmid · · Score: 1

    Because they switch the help desk outsourcer every time the outsourcer figures out how to correctly shortcut the script.

    EG: Dell sets up Latitude markX support in ???? with outsourcer. Outsourcer knows shit about the product & uses script extensively. Customers start complaining that support sucks (which it does). After six months of this two things happen: 1) Outsourcer has memorized the script & can shortcut it (this means better TS). 2) Dell (likely not liking the repair rate going up) states:
    "Due to an insufficient level of TS, we will be changing companies that support MarkX": Shortly followed by new script monkeys who suck...

    PS: The company I used to work for got about %10 discount on Dell Stuff. I personally think that most of the time the customer still gets the shaft, but some stuff is good... and you avoid the whole (which unit has the best price/preformance RIGHT NOW) And Level I techs suck on the business stuff just as badly as on consumer stuff. You only get Level II techs if you buy more than most small companies.

  36. Wall$treet by olddotter · · Score: 1

    If you look at Dell's stock versus HP's, part of the difference has to do with Dell's reputation for owning the customer. There's a sense they own the entire margin and have higher profits because they sell directly. It makes them appear more valuable to Wall Street.'

    If Wall Street really believes that, then that just shows how stupid Wall Street can be.

    --
    Think Deeply. ...
  37. it's closer to 10 1/2 % by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Average equity investment return is about 10 1/2 percent, including dividend reinvested. This is not inflation adjusted. Inflation is somewhere near 3% historically. (btw, the government lies to us about inflation .. a little bit a least). So real return is a liitle over 7% or so. Value investors do better than growth investors and small stocks outperform large stocks. So they say ... and over the long run.
    Your mileage may vary. Stay diversified.

  38. Big vs. Small fish by edlong · · Score: 3, Informative

    If your a small fish, you probably won't get the service you think you deserve from Dell, that's my experience. Now that I spend a few million a year with Dell, while it may not be Dell's biggest account, we get some more attention.

    I hope Dell's listening, because I've been buying Dell personally for a long time and my XP400 while a good machine, didn't come with a restore disk (lame) and had so much 'trialware' running it was killing my performance. I just had to wonder what a non technical person would do. Is it about the price or the customer? IMHO Dell's going to lose market share.

    Here's a good war story, my 5160 laptop USB ports went dead, I think due to a power surge. I called and spoke to 'India' to a very very pleasent person, but couldn't do anything outside of the script. They finally agree to replace the motherboard (after having me check lots of things). I travel a lot, so the local VAR calls me and we make an appt. for 2 weeks out. He calls back and says that he had to return the part because the ticket was open to long per Dell. I had to call Dell support again, and again go through the script, and they wanted me to do every test again (30 minutes). I played along, because I needed my ports and there was that this guy was going to comprehend the situation. After both the Dell calls, they ask, would you talk to a supervisor about your experience. I did both times. But, the second time, I told them the story and I don't think it meant anything to the guy, because it probably didn't impact his pay. I got a 'ok thanks'. (No thank you)

    So Dell had to take two calls at 30+ minutes a pop. Dell mailed the motherboard twice to the VAR and 1 time back to Dell. I had to sit on the Dell support line for an additional 30 minutes, but luckily they gave me another code, the VAR got the motherboard back and he fixed my laptop before I headed on another trip.

    Did Dell save money on that transaction by outsourcing? Probably, but it's short term IMHO

    For more discussion on Dell negativespace2005-Dell at yahoo dot com

  39. menace4society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Warren's lost the touch ...

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=BRK-A&l=on&z= m&q=l&c=%5Erut&c=%5EGSPC

  40. I complained about getting "owned", got a rebate by SuperBanana · · Score: 1
    Last year, I bought a new Dell workstation for work, the first of several workstations we were going to evaluate to replace our aging machines. Price on website: $1300 and change. But the website was flaky, and I couldn't complete the order. I called, got an "account manager", who took the product numbers I had written down from the website, and we ordered it--only to have the total come to $1400 and change.

    I ordered a Dell 20" widescreen display; but I missed a deal posted on hotdeals by a few hours, so I called and placed the order over the phone; said I had it saved in my cart and I kept trying to register but never got the email, and then my cart expired. The sales droid gave me a very similar discount after I played dumb-user-who-is-annoyed and went off on a rant about how their pricing seemed to be all over the place, blah blah, how pricing via the web is different from the phone, etc. etc.

    However, I didn't get free shipping. So, after hanging up with her- a day later, I emailed sales support and said "no free shipping? I thought I was getting free shipping!" etc etc. They botched up answering that email (I forget how, but it was comical) and that gave me a whole NEW thing to rant to them about (which actually created a second ticket by mistake.) The SECOND ticket got escalated, and the second rep offered something like either $75 in store-rebates or $50 off the existing purchase. Shipping had been about $20 I think; I took the $50 and 'ran'. So...if you make enough noise, Dell sales support appears to be under a lot of pressure to retain you if you say whatever annoyed you will make you never buy from them again.

    Flip side: I would never deal with them as a corporate purchaser if I could avoid it. A company I contracted with bought $270K worth of Dell stuff- via a reseller because they promised they'd babysit the order. Cost them a little bit more, but it was worth the hassle.

    Support end? Once you get the machine, if you have on-site support my only experience (which says something given I've been in the industry 6+ years) has been overwhelmingly positive. They dispatched a guy in under 24 hours, he was the cleanest-cut tech I've ever met, knew exactly what the problem was (broken switch contact on the laptop motherboard), and had the laptop completely apart, motherboard replaced, and reassembled in something like 10 minutes- and he didn't object to looking at a weird problem we were having with docking stations.

    I've had two dell laptop hard drives die, and in both cases, I called up Dell and they said "oh, clicking noises? Machine keeps hanging? OK, we'll ship you a new one. Send the old one back within the next two weeks please", and the replacement was on my desk the next morning.

    --
    Please help metamoderate.
  41. It's my hobby! by gzunk · · Score: 1

    It's my hobby, I enjoy doing it. I enjoy sifting between the different graphics cards etc that I could buy and install. Sure if it wasn't my hobby and I simply used my computer for something else then I would buy a Dell (or something else).

    Is it so wrong to enjoy assembling computers? It is, after all, grown up Lego with higher stakes for when you get it wrong...

  42. Hmmm... by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    We have a lot of Dell server hardware and it doesn't seem to fail any more or less often than any of our other equipment. That being said we _never_ buy PERC anymore... we've been burned by it too many times. Software RAID over 3rd party SCSI controllers is plenty fast for most jobs... if its not we go buy RAID offload enclosures from Xyratec or somebody.

    PERC... good hardware plus shitty Dell firmware. What were they thinking?

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  43. defeat by celardore · · Score: 1

    Am I allowed to accept defeat on slashdot? Because that's what I'd like to do.

    The posts after mine have given me a different perspective. I'm still for what I said originally, but you do gain a bit of perspective on a site like this.
    I got proved wrong, but gained some insight. Thats enough for me.

  44. What else is new ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was working as a sales rep for Dell's VAR division in 1994 or thereabouts (gosh were we a small up-and-comer outfit then ;-) ). VARs used us mainly as a fallback choice because of IBM's and Compaq's regular availability issues, and because a few customer requested our cheaper stuff.

    At the time, Dell had even designed their own graphics accelerator (DGX I think?), and RAID controller.

  45. Dude!! Can I get an AMD with that? by cupOfJava · · Score: 1

    I stopped buying Dell for several reasons. First let me say Mr. Dell is brilliant and truly did like Mr. Gates build a great company. Dell caved to greed and lost it's "the customer is always right" feel IMHO.
    BTW
    I'm currently dual booting on a Shuttle box that has XP Pro and Red Hat FC5 for 64-bit AMD. The XP Pro is such crap with all of the security patches and Norton that I could get quicker responses out of my old 486 Gateway running OS/2 or Windows 3.1 but enough of that.

    Dell stopped giving me choices. They pushed the price WAY UP. They laid off their true asset which was great customer service. The first time I got a guy in India that was reading from a script and couldn't trouble shoot a PC missing a power cord I was done.

    If I'm going to buy from a company that is off shoring everything www.shuttle.com is a GREAT option for the money. My last laptop was a Compaq (HP) and they built it in Bejing. Put it on a plane to Alaska and then flew it to the States where I got it a few days later.

    I fully loaded 64-bit AMD with fast HD and nice options was less than 1K. Dell still thinks I want to pay 5,000 for this GREAT GAMING laptop that would prove to anyone with a brain that I don't realize either how to buy a good box for the money or build my own.

    I want good quality for a cheap price. Dell has put in gimmicks. Tossed out their support. Offshored the engineering talent. Put dumb looking PC's in a pretty box. Then sends me WAY over down catalogs to induce me to buy.

    The value of a Dell has gone down. The quality of a Dell has gone down. The service of a Dell has gone down unless you live in India.

    The only thing that has gone up are the prices. The places I can find their stuff at like every Mall in the US. Also, they are into EVERYTHING now. I don't really care to EVER buy a TV from Dell. No offense to anyone out there who has but I'm going to stick with my Sony WEGA HD TV. If something is wrong with the Dell I don't want to talk from someone in India about it.

    HP is cheaper with BETTER quality. HP has offshored a lot of stuff BUT they give me choices like AMD processors AND they have local people supporting their stuff.

    DELL is out to lunch. I see nothing in a DELL catalog that would make me think twice about paying DOUBLE for their brand name.

    BTW

    I am using a Dell flat panel at the moment and it is the nicest I've ever owned. I do still look at their flat panel screens. ;-)

    Maybe there is still hope?

  46. Dell by peter+Payne · · Score: 0

    I will gladly buy Dell when they are so cheap that to do otherwise would be foolish. Monitors are really a commodity, so we switched from Apple to Dell for those even though J-List is an all-Mac company. I like how the Dell Japan store goes out of their way to compete with the U.S. store, usually giving us $100-200 off the cheapest U.S. price to build market share (er, or something like that). However, the company is disfunctional on many levels. Last time I checked, the Dell Japan site did...not...work...with...Safari. I know Mac users aren't exactly their target, but we buy routers etc. from them to use with our Macs.

    --
    You've got a friend in Japan: http://www.jlist.com
  47. How does Dell make money? by mshurpik · · Score: 1

    Considering that Dell is a respected name, I was wondering how they could make money selling good PC's. A bit of research revealed that the weak links in a Dell purchase are:

    * Cheap/overpriced video card
    * Cheap/overpriced hard drive
    * Integrated (i.e. cheap) motherboard

    Thus, if you want a Dell with nVidia GeForce 7900, you're going to pay $500 instead of the $400 cost. Same for the hard drive...upgrades to Raptors are more expensive than the price differential. It's all very clever, but it amounts to extorting $2-400 per pc on the video/hd subsystem plus whatever they make by having integrated mobos.

  48. Dell has sold through the channel for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have a look on CRN.com and crn.vnunet.com and you'll find a ton of stories. Despite Michael Dell's continuous denials, corporate resellers have been making a mint from Dell for years. Big hardware distributors in the UK have always held Dell stock - after all, they are logistics experts. It's just that they can't admit to doing so.

    Resellers have been able to buy from Dell's reseller specialists for years - although many have said that they have found Dell muscling in on their customers - a bit of a recurring theme, that.

    Still other resellers find that if they ring up at the right time of the month and offer to buy in bulk, they can get a big discount on desktops. One waved around the figure of 20 per cent margin here in the UK - I had no reason to disbelieve him, as he shifts support contracts with the desktops as well as the tin.

    In short, Dell has always gone to the channel. It's just been a strident denier of doing so. Oh, and Dell is a reseller anyway - just a very big one!

    More reading:

    http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn/features/2146678/l ockie-steve
    - distributor points out that Dell is a channel player

    http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn/news/2009592/dell- gives-indirect-answers
    - Michael Dell admits UK resellers are shifting his kit

    http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn/features/2010644/c hannel-hopping
    - Feature on Dell and the channel

  49. Wall Street's purpose is to be stupid by alienmole · · Score: 1

    In a sense, the whole purpose of Wall Street is to be stupid. Analysts encourage herd behavior which creates distortions which the smart people (mostly brokers and other insiders) can profit from. If you read Wall Street analyst reports and take them at face value, you're a mark who's probably already being fleeced. OTOH, if you read the reports and think to yourself "OK, what are all the other marks going to do as a result of this report?", that's a good start towards success in the market.

  50. Did I miss something? by loopsandsounds · · Score: 1

    According to TFA:
    'If you look at Dell's stock versus HP's, part of the difference has to do with Dell's reputation for owning the customer. There's a sense they own the entire margin and have higher profits because they sell directly. It makes them appear more valuable to Wall Street.'
    What?
    http://www.google.com/finance?q=HPQ
    http://www.google.com/finance?q=DELL
    Last time I checked HP's stock is HIGHER than DELL's. What gives?

    --
    I was throwing you the 48, but you made me switch to the 132.