Slashdot Mirror


Fly-by-Wireless Plane Takes to the Sky

galactic_grub writes to tell us that engineers in Portugal have built and flown a plane with no wires or mechanical connections between the major systems, only a wireless network. From the article: "Tests flights carried out in Portugal have shown that the system works well. Cristina Santos, at Minho University in Portugal, who developed the plane, says the aim is primarily to reduce weight and power requirements. 'Also, if you do not have the cables then the system is much more flexible to changes,' she says."

21 of 376 comments (clear)

  1. Holy Crap! by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Goddamn it! A 'wireless' plane! My first thought was why the hell would you want to do that? First thing I decided after 802.11 got cheap was "wireless for convenience, wired where it matters". The following quote from TFA clued me in however:
    the aim is primarily to reduce weight and power requirements. "Also, if you do not have the cables then the system is much more flexible to changes," she says.
    I tell you what ladies & gents - this is one plane where I'd take notice when told to switch my cell phone off!

    PS - I note the next story on the front page is "IT: Wireless Security Attacks and Defenses." Coincidence? I think not ;-)
    --
    There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    1. Re:Holy Crap! by FST777 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how the heck does one reduce power requirements by, say, replace Cat5 with 802.11?!? I'm wondering about the weight too...

      --
      Free beer is never free as in speech. Free speech is always free as in beer.
  2. Do we really need this? by DougLorenz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does an optical cable REALLY weigh that much that someone would want to replace it with wireless? This goes for any situation where functionality is considered to be important. I have a wireless network at home, but I've also run gigabit ethernet through the entire house. The wireless goes down from time to time, but the hard cable does not. The article talks about two benefits, weight reduction and power reduction. In both situations, I would expect that a single lightweight fiber connection and some LED lasers would not be significantly heaver, and would likely use a good deal less power... It just seems to me that the whole idea is little more than academic. I can't think of a single situation where it would be more desirable for a device like an automobile or an airplane to use a wireless system for communicating control information. Someone's got way too much free time on his hands...

    --
    Slashdot, where you get modded down as redundant for stating an opposing viewpoint... Independent thought anyone?
    1. Re:Do we really need this? by DougLorenz · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'd more like to know if there's a way to communicate over the power lines, which you'd have to run anyway, or if this is already done.

      If they have to run power lines anyway, then just string the fiber along with the power line. Fiber isn't significantly affected by EMI, so what would it matter...

      You have brought up an additional point though... If a plane needs to have power in both the front and back, then what is someone going to do without wires? Batteries located everywhere power is needed? That pretty much trashes the whole "weight saving" aspect of this project.

      Or maybe some sort of microwave transmission of power from the front of the plane to the back... The upside to that is that anyone sitting in the middle of the plane wouldn't need a blanket to stay warm.

      --
      Slashdot, where you get modded down as redundant for stating an opposing viewpoint... Independent thought anyone?
    2. Re:Do we really need this? by Greyfox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      According to this, a 737 contains 36 miles of electrical wire. So it probably would be a fairly significant weight savings. I woudn't want to put my life on the line on that airplane though, at least not until they can demonstate that the safety is the same or better than a conventional one. Give that the FAA implies that a passenger accidentally leaving his cell phone on is enough to make a conventional one go slamming into the ground in a firey ball of death, I'm not sure it's as difficult as it sounds...

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    3. Re:Do we really need this? by TopSpin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does an optical cable REALLY weigh that much that someone would want to replace it with wireless?

      Yes, a signal cable in an aircraft really does weigh 'that much'. A signal cable must be protected; fuel, weather and physical damage are all problems for signaling mediums in aircraft. Solution? Conduits, seals and other bulk. The armor needed to protect cables (optical or otherwise) is substantial; a length of fiber optic cable may not simply rattle around in the fuselage or wing like it might in your premises wiring plenums.

      I doubt this is viable for passenger aircraft. The risk of interference is simply too high; commercial airliners are expected to take lightning strikes as they fly in and near electrical storms. Military aircraft must tolerate hostile attacks on signaling systems, particularly radio systems.

      On the other hand, there are a large and growing number of UAV applications for which this is probably well suited. UAV loiter time is a high priority; less weight translates directly to better performance. UAV maintenance and repair could be greatly simplified by eliminating signal cables throughout the vehicle.

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  3. +1 Neat, -1 Impractical by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Such wireless links could be susceptible to electromagnetic interference or even jamming, Mellor suggests. And it could be more difficult to build in back-up wireless connections, he says. "If you jam one link you would jam both," he warns.

    That's also my concern. A high powered transmitter is a lot easier to attack a plane with than a shoulder mounted rocket. (Which simply doesn't have the same range as a high powered transmitter.) A truck with a few generators in series would make for an excellent jamming platform.

    There's also the concern of an onboard terrorist using implementation flaws to hack the airplane. The crew would have a deuce of a time trying to understand why they're locked out of their controls.

    Some planes, such as the Boeing 777 even use optical fibres, which can carry multiple signals through a single cable.

    IMNO, this makes a lot more sense. Optical busses between the necessary components are fast, lightweight, and easy to install. I can't see wireless saving more than a few kilograms over fibre connections.

    That being said, in-flight entertainment systems might save weight if they weren't wired up. Running fibre for such systems results in a lot of unnecessary wiring and weight. Since the entertainment system is effectively a low-security system, airplane makers can feel free to use these linkages as long as the control systems remain wired.

    She also admits that stringent aviation regulations may mean the technology first appears in cars rather than planes.

    That makes even less sense. AFAIK, the horrid nests of wires that previously ran all of a car's electronics have been replaced by more standardized busses. The remaining wiring merely hooks a cars features into the power system. Unless I missed something, Bluetooth can not wirelessly provide power to accessories. Which means that they can't replace the wiring in cars anyway.

    Hopefully we'll see this technology help with UAVs and other super-light aircraft. But I have no desire to fly on a plane that has its key systems hooked up through a technology that can be potentially interfered with by the cellphones the passengers are carrying.

    1. Re:+1 Neat, -1 Impractical by Arandir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can build a wifi/bluetooth interference generator with less than a ten dollar's worth of parts. It would be very short range, to be sure, but if it will work in a movie theater, it will work in an airplane. I don't think terrorists are going to be too concerned about following FCC rules...

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
  4. Security concerns by crow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously the first thing they need to address is the possibility of a passenger hacking their wireless network and taking control of the plane. Or simply jamming the system to crash the plane.

    Securing the network should be doable, but preventing jamming may be the problem that prevents this from becoming a real system.

  5. no thanks by yagu · · Score: 4, Insightful
    no thanks

    Considering that every RF technology I've ever worked with has been imperfect, I'd hesitate to ride (or even fly) a wireless network controlled plane.

    Here are some of the wireless technologies I know:

    • XM radio... Great stuff, love what it offers, but I've NEVER gone an entire day without some interruption of signa.
    • 811.x lan. Love having wireless LAN at home, but please please please don't turn on the microwave!
    • remote controlled anything (wireless). I've used wireless IR repeaters, I've had RF remote controlled devices, every single one of these devices exhibitied anomolous behavior at some point, and every single one showed anomolous behavior more than once!
    • satellite TV (see XM bullet above)
    • GPS. many many "disconnects" over the course of a day.
    • AM/FM radio/OTA TV signals, always susceptible to interference, multi-path (FM), lightning (AM), etc.
    • cell phones... don't get me started -- probably one of the most promising technologies beat to death by money-grubbing telcoms squeezing every bit of quality out of the transmission protocols and tower dispersal until it's mediocre technology.
    • cordless phones... if you've still got the 2.4Ghz phones, don't try talking on them while you're moving large data streams on your 811.X network... noise, noise, noise (not to mention the interference the other direction)
    • garage doors. It's not as bad these days, but our garage door would spontaneously open and close when aircraft were near.

    She states she is working on the reliability problem. I wonder if it's possible to solve (any EEs out there to chime in?). I used to work for a telcom, and they always had an interesting poster up describing what 99.99% accuracy meant. The most interesting representation: if commercial jets took off and landed at that rate of effieciency, there would be a failure every 10,000 landings/takeoffs. For the sake of simplifying, if there were 5,000 flights a day, that would be 10,000 landings plus takeoffs implying a statistical expectation of failure each day.

    I don't know to what level RF can be perfected without some backup system (also RF) that would guarantee perfection but if they ever start flying those suckers, I'm going to wait a while before I board one.

  6. Composites by everphilski · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Composites are the future, Boeing's dreamliner and whatever Airbus's new airliner is are being made of more and more composites. Composites are strong, but composites are very flexible. They don't lend themselves well to control wires although cabling is acceptable if you have slack (which adds weight)... but movement is never a good thing so wireless kinda makes sense if you can make it fault-toloerant.

    1. Re:Composites by t0qer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Kinda cool you mentioning composites, it allows me to segway into a little known fact about them.

      I fly RC airplanes, on the net I hang out at rcgroups.com, wattflyer.com, and just generally browse here and there for info.

      I'm a little lazy to look it up ATM, but one of the things folks that build rc planes use is carbon fiber rods to stiffen the wings. One of the drawbacks to CF though is it blocks RF. So when you're running your antenna wire, it's best to run it as far away from your CF rod as possible to avoid blackout areas.

      The idea of an RF control system inside of a CF plane is scary. Especially after how many horror stories i've heard from my fellow RC pilots about their RX suddenly cutting out because they didn't take proper precautions with the CF.

    2. Re:Composites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One would presume that if the spacial relationship between components of you aircaft changes losing wireless signaling between them is the least of your problems. i.e. in an RC plane it is a problem becasue the transmitter stays in one place while the reciever moves. In this place teh transmitter and recievers are all fixed to the plane. Either you have a signal, or the plane is breaking up. The geometrical relationship between the cockpit, wings, and tail are fixed.

  7. Could actually improve safety by RobertB-DC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most of the early comments seem to be in the vein of "OMG wireless hax!", but consider a real worst-case scenario, like the one that brought down ValuJet 592. It was caused by a fire in the cargo hold that cut critical links between the cockpit controls and the hydraulic systems needed to keep the plane running.

    As long as you have a physical connection from point A to point B, it is vulnerable to the most brute-force of DOS attacks: cut the connection and it's lost. A wireless link between the pilot and the control surfaces, on the other hand, can't be cut by a fire in the cargo hold, or even by a shoulder-fired missle (as long as it missed the kablooie stuff).

    In a real-world application, I'd expect both wired/optical links *and* wireless backup links. Such a fully redundant system would work both as a sanity check (both systems should be reporting the same results) and as a backup (wired works when wireless is jammed, wireless works when wire is cut).

    Plus, I can hardly wait for the netstumbler/kismet folks to write a monitor program to let me monitor things from the comfort of my tray table (on the emergency exit row, of course).

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    1. Re:Could actually improve safety by bgarcia · · Score: 2, Insightful
      As long as you have a physical connection from point A to point B, it is vulnerable to the most brute-force of DOS attacks: cut the connection and it's lost. A wireless link between the pilot and the control surfaces, on the other hand, can't be cut by a fire in the cargo hold, or even by a shoulder-fired missle (as long as it missed the kablooie stuff).
      This ignores the fact that you still need lines to supply power to move control surfaces. So you still have hydrolic lines and/or electrical power lines that can be cut, rendering your still-intact wireless connection useless.

      I suppose you could have small batteries at every control surface, but that would increase weight and add to maintenance costs.

      --
      I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
  8. Re:Worst. Idea. Ever. by mandolin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The only safe way to work around the interference issues would be to have wired backup controls, and at that point you've made the wireless system redundant anyway, because it's only advantageous if you can eliminate the wires.

    I thought most production wired systems had (triple?) redundancy. If you could replace at least some of the "backup" wires with a wireless system, you might still save some weight.

  9. Great Idea by _bug_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a backup system, this would be a great idea. So if any leads get cut for whatever reason (explosion in cargo hold cuts lines to the elevators, for example) you'd still have some mechanism to maintain control. But I wouldn't rely on a solely wireless system.

    Of course if you have the kind of damage that would cut electrical lines, you'll probably have lost hydraulics as well which isn't going to be fixed with a wireless network.

  10. Stupid solution, but going in right direction by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Okay, these guys are slow... real slow. They try stuff over and over a hundred times.

    What they are doing, however, is separating the concept of control system from a bunch of wires down to a single signal containing a data stream.

    When they figure out how vulnerable this is (and trust me, they will), they will try to figure out some other ways to deliver the data packets to the rest of the plane--at this point the design of microcontrollers at every interface point will have been completed and so all it will take is simply modifying the transport mechanism.

    They will probably, at this point, figure out that a few fiber cables (say between 2 and 8 in redundant loops that each connect to every system like SONET) can deliver the signal just as easily and with little additional weight over wireless, and on top of that is virtually unhackable without physical access--even safer than copper.

    Just give 'em time.

  11. did i miss something here? by capsteve · · Score: 2, Insightful

    isn't this really a PROOF OF CONCEPT? the plane the portugese tested was 3 meters long... not big enough for human passengers. currently fly-by-wire has multiple paths to the same device for redundancy, so having a wireless connection would be a good thing. considering the fact that airplanes are basically metal tubes, there aren't too many pathways that could be considered truely redundant... no matter if the wiring is harnessed above/below/port/starboard of the cargo or passenger cabin, all paths are still running parallel to each other. the wireless connection would allow a redundant connection without a pathway limitation. as a response to the comment that wires don't take up too much space, try having 5 redundant connections from point a-b, and you're talking a minimum of 2 wires for the simplest circuit(on/off switch) per pathway. what happens when it's a system that requires multiple degrees of motion with feedback? you think 2 wires is gonna do that? fiber, maybe, but not copper. and when you consider the amount of cabling that goes into a passenger class jet, you be safe to bet there's probably 1/4-1/2 mile worth of wiring for all your electrical systems. saving space and weight can become an important issue. and lastly a comment about hacking/jamming/disruption of fly-by-wireless: any flight control system that would actually use wireless technology will not end up using a consumer band of wavelength, nor would it use consumer grade software protocols. airflight as a business is culturally too important and profitable to allow disruption by such commonly available technology. fly-by-wireless tehnology will end up being very expensive, and very difficult to compromise, licensed and regulated heavily, and will operate in a far different spectrum band than bluetooth or 802.11.

    --
    three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
  12. So let me get this straight: by Captain+Perspicuous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They tried to remove having a cable between the cockpit and the rudder. They replaced it with "wireless", which means that that both ends need some sort of a sending/receiving device, which uses power, which is provided by a cable, which connects from the power source to both the cockpit and the rudder. So, no wires between the cockpit and the rudder, right?

  13. Don't forget about... by Shotgun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Detectability.

    People don't respect old mechanical controls, but they have one enviable attribute in that wear can be detected and measured before a failure occurs. All it requires is that someone pays attention. My JD-2 is wide open and I can inspect anything with nothing more than a hand mirror taped to a stick. Electric controls might be lighter than the 1"x.065 4130 tube running the length of the plane, but I'd never be able to feel the play increasing in a joystick.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba