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Hardware Firms Go Against Crowd on Net Neutrality
An anonymous reader writes "Some of the largest hardware firms in the world, like Cisco and 3M, have sent a letter to U.S. policymakers asking them not to be too hasty on mandated net neutrality laws." From the News.com article: "'It is premature to attempt to enact some sort of network neutrality principles into law now,' says the letter, which was signed by 34 companies and sent to House Majority Leader Dennis Hastert and Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. 'Legislating in the absence of real understanding of the issue risks both solving the wrong problem and hobbling the rapidly developing new technologies and business models of the Internet with rigid, potentially stultifying rules.'"
I personally believe that the government has no business regulating net neutrality. The government will be lobbied to the point where the bill actually does more damage than having a law in the first place.
If you need proof of this just look at the anti-spam laws around the world that safe-guard "e-marketing".
I actually suspect that this is going to go away by itself. Who is going to pay for this service? Imagine Google's reply to this: "You're going to make my traffic slower if I don't pay this fee? Well fuck you very much! In fact, I'm going to go to a new bandwidth provider who doesn't try to extort me.
I doubt the PHB's have done the maths on this either. History is a great teacher, perhaps they should pick up a history book. Back in England in the 19th century the price of sending a letter was calculated depending on how far it has to go. Somebody realised that the cost of calculating the tariff actually costed the mail company more than extra profit they were trying to make. They introduced a flat fee and improved profits overnight.
Ask yourselves this, how much is going to cost ISPs to administer this monstrosity? Suppose Google's homepage has to traverse 5 networks to go to my PC. How is Google's fee going to be split across these networks? That sounds like a big fucking pain in the arse to me. How many accountant's salaries am I going to have to pay to remit these funds? Balance this cost against how much additional profit are they are going to make. How much money can you make off bandwidth when it's literally pennies per gigabyte at these scales?
Simon
What companies will profit the most from a tiered, fee-for-QoS internet? The hardware companies which make the products to do this stuff...
Trolling is a art,
Our lawmakers' real constituancy has spoken.
How does a 7-person democracy cut a pie? Into 4 pieces.
"Imagine Google's reply to this: "You're going to make my traffic slower if I don't pay this fee? Well fuck you very much! In fact, I'm going to go to a new bandwidth provider who doesn't try to extort me."
Its not the bandwidth provider they have to worry about -- its Peer Connections.
For instance, if you want to connect to the folks that are on AOL, they may mandate that if their user want to connect to your service, they want a cut. After all, it is costing them money to allow users to connect to your service.
At least this is how they see it, forgetting for the moment that the users already paid for the ability to connect to other services.
But no, its not the 'bandwidth providers' they have to worry about -- its the companies that the end users are using that are demanding the money.
"...and hobbling the rapidly developing new technologies and business models"
So yeah, enforcing net-neutrality, or making ISPs common carriers would destroy the market for replacing all back bone routers with Cisco QoS capable routers. I fail to see how a profitable business opportunity for a hand full of companies out weighs the freedom and equality of service for all online service providers.
If the ISPs are NOT common carriers, can we sue them for transmitting child porn?
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Original Article:
"Some of the largest hardware makers in the world, including 3M, Cisco, Corning and Qualcomm, sent a letter to Congress on Wednesday firmly opposing new laws mandating Net neutrality--the concept that broadband providers must never favor some Web sites or Internet services over others."
Here's how I read this:
"Manufacturers of multi-layer traffic-shaping hardware sent a letter endorsing a business model that would require heavy deployments of multi-layer traffic-shaping hardware"
It can further be broken down:
"Money Good. No make law make us lose money."
Yea Net Neutrality is something that the government shouldn't be regulating. But there's a reason the government is regulating it - the business community is unwilling to deal with the issue.
There have been a number of cases in the past where the government says "Clean up your room. If you don't clean it, we'll clean it for you and we guarantee you won't like what we do."
If Cisco and other large hardware vendors are so nervous of the government intruding on the Internet (as they should be), then they should be talking to AT&T. Once the major ISPs drop their crazy notion that they should be paid extra for something they're already doing, then the need for government intervention is eliminated.
The reason a legislative approach is being taken is because that is the approach the telcos are taking. Technically, if AT&T wanted to just make more money to upgrade service they could renegotiate tiering and bandwidth agreements. No legislation necessary. The thing is they don't want to make more money to upgrade service, they want to use this as an excuse to introduce tiered service. And there are legal impediments to them introducting tiered service. Tiered service is like honey for monopolies and duopolies. It reinforces the only barganing chip they really have which is to not to just say "We're your only choice." but "We might not let you on our network, and we're YOUR CUSTOMER's only choice."
Net Neutrality in my mind is comparable to forcing the Bells to allow other people to sell telephones that hooked into their network.
They want this trash because they can sell improbably expensive networking gear to starry-eyed ad executives. The fact that net neutrality -- the de facto standard until today -- brought them to this point is irrelevant.
Yes, I know they're publicly-held companies; yes, I know that their apologists will shrug and say they have to be utter bastards. Not the point.
Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
> "Imagine Google's reply to this: "You're going to make my
> traffic slower if I don't pay this fee? Well fuck you very
> much! In fact, I'm going to go to a new bandwidth provider
> who doesn't try to extort me."
You miss the point. It's not Google's bandwidth supplier that's the problem here. It's *YOUR* ISP. They say to Google: Hey - we have a million users, unless you pay us $X, they'll get 1Kbytes/second to Google and 1Mbytes/second to Yahoo. There is no "somewhere else" that Google can go to. Since the ISP's that get their funding this way will be able to charge their end users less, you'll start to see lower cost (to the consumer) ISP's popping up who get their funding from the sites they provide high bandwidth to.
Who loses? Well, anyone who uses Wikipedia for example. Will Wikipedia be able to pay the top 100 ISP's a few million dollars a year? Certainly not. So you'll find that access to Wikipedia will be dog slow from these low cost ISP's and access to "insert soul-sucking megacorporation here"'s encyclopedia will be fast...albeit advert laden.
I have a small web site of my own - people seem to like accessing it. Will they still come to it if it's uploaded at 1 character per second? No. Will I pay a dozen ISP's for the privilage of providing free information to their customers? No. Hence, all the 'little guys' who make the Internet such a rich and interesting place will *die* - and the Internet will be like cable TV - advert ridden - and showing the views of maybe 10 companies with 'ratings' and such determining what you see and content sinking to the lowest common denominator. Instead of Wikipedia we'll have soap operas.
So what a non-neutral net does is push the funding of the Internet from consumers (who demand good service to the places they happen to want to visit) to corporations (who will now be the only viable information providers). It's a VERY serious matter.
In an ideal world, consumers would realise this is a problem and refuse to buy Internet service from ISP's who don't practice net neutrality. However, because 99.999% of subscribers don't know anything about this issue, they'll choose whichever ISP is cheapest regardless of the fact that they'll be cutting themselves out of access to the more interesting places on the net.
So - is this a case for government intervention...sadly, I think it is.
This is the very same problem as with telephony where the government requires all phone companies to string expensive wires out to teeny-tiny non-profitable communities so everyone can have a phone. Without that, you would either have to pay a small fortune for a phone if you lived in a small town out in the boonies - or you wouldn't be able to get one at all. The 'universal service' provisions of the telephony act make that a fairer situation.
It's the same deal with the Internet - ISP's should be required to provide service to little web sites and big ones equally and let the consumers decide where they want to get their information from.
I pay for my network connection.
The content providers pay for their network connection.
These connectivity companies now want to start extorting a double payment out of the content providers.
What the fuck is there NOT to understand?
If they fucked up and aren't charging true price for a network connection, that's not our fault, or the content providers'. But this is racketeering, plain and simple.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Bandwidth providers are now just providing a path for bandwidth to travel. The source and destination of that data and type of data are not revelent. They want to add a layer of supervision to that simple service so that they can collect fees based on the content and/or source and destination of that data. Basically equivelent to adding a middle manager to a service that many would say did not need managed. This middle management is not for stability, not for accounting purposes, not for increased productivity, not for a business advantage, not for easier management, not for the advantage of either side of their customer base, and not for security. It exists for the sole purpose of extracting fees from people making more money then they are. Imagine having to pay more to make a long distance call to Google then if you called Bill's flower shop, both serviced by the same exchange. Imagine Sears having to pay the USPS more money to send third class mail then Johns hardware store. Imagine a large trucking company having to pay more per gallon for diesel fuel then you because they are larger. This is the exact opposite of the buying in bulk is cheaper way of doing business and really makes no sense at all.
The only way this system will work is if a majority of carriers join together and all start using it. Then the "users" (content providers and computer users) will have no choice but to go along. The smaller guys will get screwed and the internet as we know it will be tiered FOREVER into two groups, extremely big business and the others. This also raises the bar and makes it harder for new and up and coming businesses and causes reduced competition and innovation. Look at the state of cell phones in the US. If you are satisfied with your current cell phone provider, it is only because you are stuck in a contract or because they suck a little bit less then your previous provider.
Some of the discussion is in terms of quality of service traffic shaping versus net neutrality. But they are different things. You can implement QoS in a neutral way, for instance by treating streaming video differently than e-mail. Streaming video needs continuous throughput to work well; e-mail works just as well in sporadic packets. So setting your Cisco to treat the two differently enhances the one without cost to the other. It's, in real terms, neutral.
But if you set your Cisco to give better QoS to verizonporn.com streams, and to make the streams from qwestadult.com choppy (presumably because you're Verizon, or have been paid by them) that's not neutral.
Traffic shaping where different classes of packets are given different routing preferences should not be restricted by law - within reason it improves the Net for everyone. Traffic shaping where the origin of the packets causes them to be treated differently is not neutral, not "common carrier," and should be totally illegal.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
You give the consumers too much credit. They will switch to the cheaper ISP. If they have a choice of course. If I want broadband in Seattle I basically have two choices, Comcast or Qwest. What if they both decide to throttle wikipedia?
Will the average consumer even realize that it is their ISP doing the throttling? They most likely will blame wikipedia.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
The same way that if an operating system gets all buggy and filled with viruses and vulnerabilities, then the users will switch operating system...
Unfortunately, that's not going to happen either. The users will keep using what they have always been using and what they are comfortable with, and they will tolerate, even enjoy, any raping that the big corporations will shove up their butt, and then they'll demand more.
Cell phones, ISP's, operating systems, WalMarts, gas... the average customer doesn't want to make the effort to vote with its dollars.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
The government will be lobbied to the point where the bill actually does more damage than having a law in the first place.
If you need proof of this just look at the anti-spam laws around the world that safe-guard "e-marketing".
What kind of argument is this?
"The government will be lobbied to the point where the bill actually does more damage than having a law in the first place. If you need proof of this, just look at the laws that prohibit dumping of toxic chemicals into waterways, or the laws that prevent false advertising, or the laws that forbid discrimination in getting loans/housing/jobs."
Yes, lobbying can ultimately have a negative impact on laws. But it's ridiculous to say, "Hey, the government screws things up sometimes, so we're best off having the government do nothing, just in case they screw this up, too."
As for "pennies on the gigabyte", just how many gigabytes do you think AT&T, Sprint, Level3, and other top tier ISPs transmit and receive per day? For example, this article estimates that YouTube alone transmits 200TB of data each day, paying possibly as much as a penny per minute for this bandwidth, or in the ballpark of $1000 a day. They're currently being charged by their ISP based solely on bandwidth. But what if, say, Time Warner could take their pound of flesh, saying that since YouTube hosts video, they should pay a premium to deliver content to TW's end users (the ones, mind you, who are already paying $40 a month for Internet service)? Claiming this kind of money from the top content providers on the 'net adds up fast, and when combined with the additional incentive that the cable and phone companies have to prevent competing VoD and VoIP services from using their networks, you better believe that they'll implement whatever procedures are necessary to make it work.
Besides, your analogy to the 19th century post office doesn't stand up, either. We have this nifty invention today called the computer, which "can run things 900 to 1200 times better than any human" (and that was back in 1982). But seriously, the contract itself can be negotiated quickly - the ISPs are the ones calling the shots in most cases, so there's really not a lot of negotiation that has to happen - and the metering can all be achieved through the routing equipment.
Routing equipment which will be manufactured by companies like - guess who - "3M, Cisco, Corning and Qualcomm".
I read three tomes by Robert A. Caro on Lyndon Johnson. At some point in time electricity company was forced to sell electricity at a lower rate, which the company strongly opposed to. The government won, and later the company had to admit that they made much more profit. This story is not to demonstrate that government always knows best, but to demonstrate that free market also doesn't always know best.
While the free market does not "always know best" it is the best method we've been able to use for figuring it out. Not that that applies in this case. A government enforced monopoly on the public right of ways needed to install power lines, makes the power industry anything but a free market.
Similarly, the internet is made up of ISPs, many of whom are one of only one or two companies with the right to run "last mile" lines through the government controlled right of ways. They are granted a whole range of privileges as common carriers that give them special rights in exchange for impartially moving whatever data they are given. Now they want to renege on their half of the deal? Fine. They can charge anyone anything they want in a free market, but they should lose their common carrier privileges exempting them from prosecution for copyright violation, libel, slander, kiddie porn, etc. they have on their gear. Likewise, any company that requests it should be given equal access to all the public right of ways they are using. Finally, they should have to pay back all the money the government spent subsidizing the lines they are using in order to provide a public good. They are a business, not a public good; let them act like it.
I'm perfectly happy with laws that require ISPs to pass thru any packet irrespective of its type.
Agreed!
Market forces will do aboslutely shit.
The few big telcos there are will collude and we will lose net neutrality.
Customers will end up paying more for the internet or will not be able to access the sites they want to at the speed they are paying for.
The hardware companies are for this because to implement a tiered internet, those same big telcos will have to buy new hardware. What a suprise.
Luckily all those crazy people in congress have to run for election and have a tendency to want to appease their masses. CEOs, however, only need appease stockholders by making profit.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
The market will cure all. I'm still boggled by the literally TWO choices I have for a reliable ISP.
"The Market" is no magical thing. It's not natural, it's not a cure-all. Markets are formed by rules and regulations. Net neutrality is a reasonable imposition on the market for bandwidth.
If you doubt the Market is artificial, ask why we don't just get rid of contract law. I mean, buyers will just gravitate to sellers who live up to their contracts, right? No need for enforcement.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Um, they do pay more. Oodles more than you do. Net neutrality isn't about not paying for bandwidth, its about this: Lets say you have an ISP (we'll call it "Comcast"). Lets say that Google has an ISP, let's call ("AT&T"). Let's say, for illustration's sake, that Comcast's network doesn't directly connect to AT&T's network, but they both connect to another backbone provider (we'll say "Verizon"). So the connection from you to Google looks something like this --
You Comcast Verizon AT&T Google
Currently, you pay Comcast for a certain level of bandwidth in each direction, Google pays AT&T for a certain level of bandwidth in each direction, and Comcast and AT&T each have an agreement with Verizon covering the bandwidth of their users being transferred, in each direction, over Verizon's network, which instead of cash is likely an in-kind ("I'll carry your users packets, you'll carry mine") agreement. Every bit of bandwidth is paid for, in cash or in-kind, on every network that carries it, and he who asks for more capacity is paying more for it.
What the telcos want is to allow Comcast and Verizon to demand that Google negotiate, individually, an additional payment to them each directly, or face having Google's packets dropped when travelling across their networks -- and they particularly want that ability to impose those charges on people providing services, surprisingly enough, that compete with ones where telcos already are the main provide (VoIP competing with regular telephone service) or want to dominate (like video-on-demand, or advanced portal services like Google.)
But once there's enough infrastructure in place, the ISPs will find they have spare capacity, and won't need all their income to build more. Then one of two things could happen:
- Prices go down, or ISPs drop the pay-per-byte model.
- ISPs make huge profits and rip off the customer.
Now look at the precedent of phones, and guess which is the most likely.So, do you want intervention now, or after you have been ripped off?
I think the largest problem these Baby Bells ate going to run into is support. They are going to be over run with support nightmares to the point to where people drop them like a rock. When Bellsouth announced they are going to do this, I, as a computer repair store, and networking consultant / designer, immediately dropped support for them. Me dropping support for Bellsouth affects over 2,000 people here. Most customers are on the local cable company which I gladly support for a smaller fee. Their owner is a net neutrality advocate as well as I. We see eye to eye on almost everything. Almost 500 of those 2,000 customers have moved from Bellsouth since a month ago. Now when someone calls, my statement is "We do not support Teired connections. You will have to contact your internet provider about that.". Then go on to suggest "Insert local cable & DSL company that is neutral".
With influence comes responsability, I pray that I am up to the task, and do it right.
When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Jefferson
Imagine a cash grab where all of a sudden toll booths appeared all over the place on what were once public roads. Cisco and its ilk in this scenario are people expecting to sell toll booth hardware. That they are lobbying for their interests and against yours is not surprising.
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Right, let's create a truly free market. I'm sure we can also magically erase all the funding the current "top dogs" have received from the government and our pockets. Let's also ignore the barrier to entry that exists because... where would a small local ISP even get the money for the permits to try and start laying cable in the ground to get that last mile?
Your idea sounds great on paper... no, not even there. If by some miracle a small local ISP did manage to get something going, the big boys would just roll in, sell broadband at a loss (because they can with the rest of the nation to pay for it), and put them out of business. When this was done they'd just jack prices again. Free market might have worked if it was free from the get-go, but it never was. There were always government subsidies and handouts. We can't "take it back".
You are assuming the telcos will allow the consumer to make a choice. If the choice is between slower DSL and nothing, most consumers will choose the DSL.
Precisely -- this is exactly what the folks opposing net neutrality are saying. The very important subtext is, "they're fair so long as they benefit me." No market is inherently fair. Whoever believes this needs to pass me some of what they're smoking. No relationship centered around limited (or limitable) resources is inherently fair. Some party to the relationship almost always has the upper hand.
One thing that people almost always forget (or perhaps ignore) when quoting Adam Smith is that the world in his day was somewhat smaller. His economic examples describe situations where all the actors know each other. This forms a community, built around human mores, in which each actor has a vested interest in how that community functions. In a nutshell, his description of the "Invisible Hand" states that people in a community who are working in their own self interest are also working in the interest of the greater good. This largely seems to hold true -- people have multifarious motivations, which generally help balance out. Those people whose motivations are too skewed in one direction or another are usually considered unhealthy, or in extreme cases, pathological.
Now, we have corporations, entities that do not play by human rules. Think about it -- when the only motive is profit, behaviour rapidly approaches what would be called "sociopathic" if exhibited by an individual.
Consequently, when someone says "whatever power [and market] structures exist are free/fair", and when that someone is a corporate representative, you better damn well be suspicious.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."