Neverwinter Nights Put Out To Pasture

Right on the heels of the announcement of a new infinite dungeons module, via Broken Toys comes word that Atari has completely pulled support from the first Neverwinter Nights game. From the article: "There hasn't been any official word on all this yet but some of the most credible factors, that have been thrown around, include; the financial stability of Atari, and that they didn't want horses for NWN1 to come out officially before NWN2. This also appears to have affected other premium modules that were in production with other teams and there is probably no chance that Witches Wake 2 will ever get produced. It's hard to expect a publisher like Atari to keep on supporting patches forever, and in fact most games are lucky if they can get a few done. The NWN community has been very lucky to have had so many patches with so much free content. We shouldn't lose sight of that. However killing the premium module program makes no sense."

Comments

same ol' same ol'

[m1ndrape]

the more things change, the more atari stays the same...

So?

[GigsVT]

Did anyone really expect them to continue supporting a game from 1991??

This is the silliest story I've ever read.

Re:So?

[dotoole]

That would be a pretty terrible business decision for them. They want the community making mods for NWN 2 when it comes out, not playing with the source of NWN 1.

Re:So?

[Pop69]

That whooshing noise you heard was that joke going right over your head....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(A OL_game)

Read and learn some history

Re:So?

[DrSkwid]

You seem to have changed the part of the sentence that said "making mods for NWN2" and replaced it in your mind with "buy NWN2".

It does make sense, kinda

[Morkano]

However killing the premium module program makes no sense.

It does kinda makes sense. They want more exciting things to be avaliable for NWN2 only, I imagine.

horses in NWN

[Mistshadow2k4]

hey didn't want horses for NWN1 to come out officially before NWN2

Officially there aren't horses in NWN1, but there have been horses in several modules and more importantly, the CEP (Community Expansion Pack) for, over a year now, so whether or not there are to ever "officially" horses in NWN1 is pretty much irrelevant to most users.

Re:horses in NWN

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the issue seems to be more about rideable horses. The DLA team (http://www.dladventures.com/) was making rideable horses for NWN1 which would have been available in a premium module before NWN2 came out - and NWN2 doesn't have rideable horses.

Apparently Atari didn't like that very much and cut the premium modules program and NWN1 support just before the E3 show, to leave NWN2 in the spotlight.

On the other hand...

[vga_init]

I'm tempted to look at this as a good thing, actually. As the summary mentioned, we've gotten a lot of content for NWN--more than usual for games of its kind. I think the game has had an excellent run, and there is enough of it to keep me satisfied.

Depending on how profitable a game is, companies cannot be expected to keep supporting it for more than a few years without creating a sequal or new engine.

I own NWN, and I absolutely love it. So why am I glad to see support drop? Because deep down inside, there is a hope that Atari will release the source code. It's happened to a lot of classic games in the past, and I hope that this one won't be any different.

They won't do that, however, until the game has long since lost its support and isn't selling much.

Imagine seeing NWN ported to many different platforms; maybe some day in the future it will make a good game for PDA's (the mouse driven interface is just perfect for those types of machines).

Linux distributions might even distribute binary packages of source builds one day along with free, community-made content.

Maybe it's just a pipe dream, but every dark cloud should have a silver lining. :)

Re:On the other hand...

[crossmr]

Does Atari, the current incarnation, have any history of releasing source code?
They're more comfortable with letting things rot and letting the fans pick up the broken pieces. See Temple of Elemental Evil for example. This engine could have spawned a new Gold Box series of games, easily selling a half dozen hit titles had they bothered to look after it properly. Instead the fans not only fixed the engine, they're going about recreating B2: The Keep on the Borderlands . They've got a whole team there redoing everything. Professional looking maps, dialogue, etc. To me that speaks volumes about the poor decisions Atari makes.

On the other hand, neverwinter nights is potentially at the end of its life cycle here. With number 2 right around the corner, they do want to shift focus to that. However, I honestly believe its not necessary. Its Neverwinter Nights 2. If you are a fan of the series, or D&D at all, you would have to live under a rock to not know that its coming out. I believe everyone with a system that can handle it and that plays NWN will purchase it, to a certain extent, there always seems to be drop off as a series continues. The only concern I see at this point is, what if they mess up the game?

From what I've read there are going to be a variety of changes and the way things are handled, like party death for example, that some people aren't happy about. If they drop support for NWN and botch NWN2, not that Atari has ever been at the helm of a botched game, you could see it doing serious damage to the franchise.

Personally I would like to have seen support continued for about 6 months after the relase of NWN2. This gives the community time to adjust and decide if it likes the new incarnation. If it doesn't and there is a big holder over from the original NWN, it might be worth focusing on some premium modules for the original. Like how Sony did with their monthly EP for Everquest.

Re:On the other hand...

[crossmr]

With any luck Atari will completely collapse, and someone with half a brain will get the license:
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.htm l?topic=482903&forum=95
(if you can view it))
pertinent text:

Well, this thread has "Locked" written all over it, but I'll throw in my mostly uninformed two cents.

My guess is that Atari will stay alive at least long enough to publish NWN2, though that's a little iffy. They'll potentially be delisted from Nasdaq August 30th if they don't get over $1 per share for ten days. They owe a lot of money to creditors. Still, they're generating ready cash by selling off licenses left and right. They'll probably make it to the September NWN2 release date.

The D&D license reverts to Infogrames should Atari go under. They can then sell it to another group. Infogrames is similarly in financial trouble, in which case it might revert to Hasbro, who can then sell it to someone else.

All of those things take time, however, so there might be a prolonged period of time where license ownership is uncertain. The biggest risk I see is that Obsidian doesn't get paid to work on patches and may not be able to get the necessary approvals to introduce new content.

So, I think everyone is holding their breath, seeing how NWN2 does at retail, and hoping for the best.

Re:On the other hand...

[Flyboy Connor]

Because deep down inside, there is a hope that Atari will release the source code.

Well, you can forget about that. The source code is not owned by Atari, but by BioWare. And BioWare is guarding its source code very closely. People have been working to get BioWare to release the source code for the Infinity Engine, which is finished for BioWare for over four years now. The Infinity Engine is old, stale, and trashed, but it will not be released. As someone who has worked with (against) the BioWare lawyers, I know they simply are not going to do that. They have their reasons, trade secrets are one thing, the fact that the code is a big pile of spaghetti another. It is their good right, of course, and with NWN they have given the amateur developers a fantastic tool. But the source code you will not get.

Not a Troll, funny

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume he is making reference to the old old old non-BioWare NeverWinter Nights. I am not sure it came out in 1991, but that date sounds correct.

According to Wiki, AOL's NWN was a MMORG and came out in 1991.

He isn't calling BioWare's NWN old, but instead making a joke about confussion and reusing the name.

If you want to mod him down, maybe Redundent as this joke awas made 1,000 times when NWN wa sin production.

Re:nwn 2 is not by bioware....

[PygmySurfer]

Bioware may not be developing it, but at least they're involved:

Greg Zeschuk: BioWare is providing the BioWare Aurora Engine to Obsidian to help build Neverwinter Nights 2. We're also providing technical support on the engine, as well as design advice. We're advising on the project so that the original vision of the game is passed on to the new team. We've got a good relationship with the folks at Obsidian and we definitely want to see them succeed in making Neverwinter Nights 2 a great game; we see it - in part at least - as still being a BioWare project.

Ray Muzyka: We're working closely with Atari and Obsidian as the game progresses and, at their request, we'll be assessing the game's progress with Atari as it moves along.

Chances are, it won't suck.

Doesn't Bioware release their own patches...

[__aaclcg7560]

I was under the impression that Bioware handled their own patches. When I was a lead tester at Atari who infrequently got thrown onto NWN (I know Prelude better than my rear end!) during testing of various "official" patches, Bioware usually released them without telling us. The only way we found out was from a new install and auto-updating to what supposed to be the current "released" version. That was always fun.

NWN is a very complex game. I was told it took a programmer 500 hours to test the entire game. A playthrough in QA was never possible when a patch is released every other day. Since I been out of the video game industry for two years, I can finally enjoy playing and trying to play the entire NWN.

Short game vs. long game, profit vs. loyalty

[nick_davison]

It's hard to expect a publisher like Atari to keep on supporting patches forever, and in fact most games are lucky if they can get a few done. The NWN community has been very lucky to have had so many patches with so much free content. We shouldn't lose sight of that.

Once upon a time there was this company called Blizzard. They made three games: a fantasy RTS, a sci-fi RTS and a dungeon romp. They also made a bunch of sequels but those three were pretty much it.

Blizzard supported cool free online match making for their games whilst everyone else was trying to figure out how to charge people a monthly fee for it. They also kept supporting the games with new patches long after every other company in the industry would have given up.

Strangely, people kept buying their new games, which were really just incremental updates of their old games, because they knew that three years down the line they'd still be able to go online, get the latest patch, play multiplayer, etc. Each of those sequels, whilst great games on their own merit, sold incredible numbers due to customer loyalty - far outstripping just about as good games from companies that had previously screwed their customers and couldn't figure out why their cool new game didn't sell as well (clearly it needed more full motion video, duh!)

Then Blizzard decided to make an MMO. Up until that point, no monthly fee MMO had cleared even half a million subscribers. Along comes Blizzard, beloved of all the people they haven't screwed every last penny out of in the past, and they clear the million subscribers almost immediately and five million not long after.

Certainly producing good games has a lot to do with it. But the very best previous MMOs couldn't manage 1/10th the subscriber figures Blizzard got, no matter how good they were. Even if WOW was that much better, the MMO market was relatively tiny at the time. Something changed that meant ten times as many people were willing to give WOW a chance (because, without players giving it a chance, good or not, no game succeeds).

I'd suggest that was the massive loyalty Blizzard has built up amongst fans over the years precisely by not applying the, "Does this make this year's balance sheet look the very best?" school of business.

And, now... Blizzard keep having to buy bigger offices with more rooms to stuff all of their cash in as they rake in ~$90m a month in subscriber fees (so vastly much more than the profit they could ever have made from their prior six or eight titles).

Loyalty, which you get from supporting people even when there's not a quick buck, is worth a fortune in the long run.

At the same time, publishers who're famous for cutting support of a game once the last copy on store shelves is sold can't figure out why they're making great games but just can't seem to turn the crazy profits Blizzard do.

So, no, you can't blame or expect different from Atari. But, perhaps, the reason they've fallen on such hard times is because, like most others, they keep playing the short game.

Re:Short game vs. long game, profit vs. loyalty

[nick_davison]

Note: I'm acknowledging NWN has had great long term support thus far.

I'd just argue the very last message you want to give, right before asking people to pay another round of $50/title for your sequel, is, "We'll only support you so long as there's money in it."

I'd quietly fade out NWN1 support after NWN2 launches in a few months when no one will notice anyway as they're all playing the new title and you've got all of those extra $50s.

Re:Short game vs. long game, profit vs. loyalty

[Psychochild]

There are a few misconceptions in your post. Unfortunately, lots of people make them.

First, WoW does not make $90 million per month. A large portion of those 6 million subscriptions Blizzard claims are in China, and Chinese players pay US$0.06/hour. They would have to play more than 8 hours per day to reach $15/month, and China has restrictions on how long minors can play these types of games. (I made a post on my professional blog with more details and links to references.)

Second, the 6 million subscription figure is worldwide. As I said above, most of those players are in China, a market that was not available to most of the previous games one might consider. The half-million figure you state is for North American subscriptions for previous games. Comparing this to Blizzard's last press release claiming 1 million North American subscriptions, we get a figure of 2x rather than 10x as you state.

Don't get me wrong, Blizzard certainly has done very well and surpassed the "old guard" quite handily. They also proved all the naysayers wrong that said the fantasy online game market was oversaturated and no new game could possibly do as well. But, it is best to keep the figures in proper perspective when discussing this topic.

All that said, I do agree with your central point: the Blizzard and Warcraft brands were well-loved for being great games from a pretty honest company. This definitely helped them make an online RPG that surpassed all previous records.

On the other hand, the Atari situation is different. I suspect most of the income goes to Bioware, so Atari doesn't make much off the premium modules; they likely expect to make more from sales of NWN2 and want as little competition as possible. Some people that won't get getting the newest patches and content might look to the sequel for an upgrade. Is it the smartest move? Not sure. But, the decision did not totally come out of left field.

Some thoughts from a game developer,

Re:It makes perfect sense

[rtrifts]

"Atari wants new content coming out for the sequel game, to increase the odds of people shelling out for it."

I see.

So, following this logic you propose to:

1 - Alienate the team who was at work on reverse engineering Granny3d, key proprietary middleware your developers at Obsidian used which has the effect of preventing the community from creating new animated content for your new game;
2- Infuriate the same guys who were working on NWmax 2 - so that there would actually BE a means for people to create said content for NWN2 and migrate old material over from NWN1;
3- Alienate the largest team of pro level artists in the community, who have, collectively, well in excess of 1 million downloads and several members now employees at EA, Blizzard, Ubisoft and BioWare; and,
4- Alienate Remington Studios (CODI) the second largest mod team of pro level artists on a what-the-hell basis.

as the best way of achieving your goal og getting new content for your new game? o_0

You want new content for NWN2, and your "solution" to this need is to circumvent the contracts of the very people you need to do it - ensuring that the fifty people capable of making those tools and delivering that quality content are so furious that they walk away from the community, vowing never to mod for an Atari game again...

And this makes perfect sense? When the altenrnative was for you to do nothing - have it cost you nothing - and all of the above would have come to pass ...

You wouldn't happen to work for Atari, do you?

I hope NWN2 has this good a run.

[Anonymous Coward]

NWN1, IMHO, is one of the best PC RPGs to date. Not for the original campaign and the two expansions, but for three reasons:

1: Bioware kept the updates coming. Far past a typical game's lifetime, Bioware has kept NWN alive fixing bugs and hackable exploits. Bioware has also added lots of content that is free.

2: Bioware's module editor is excellent.

3: Put the two together, and you also have hundreds upon hundreds of top-notch single player as well as persistant worlds as modules.

For the buck per hour entertained, I cannot think of any game around that has provided me with as much.

Kudos to Bioware, and I hope Obsidian does as good a job with a module vault, continuous support even of forum trolls looking for blood, and constant updates.

As for Atari, I just hope they can have a change of heart, keep NWN1 going for another year or so, so people can get their modules and persistant worlds ported to NWN2.

Re:Unbelievable

[seawolfe02]

Actually, Bioware had little to nothing to do with the decision to pull the plug on NWN as far as the cancelling the premium mod. The very reason that they have moved away from working under the DnD license to create their own games, I'm sure, has to do with dealing with companies like Atari. I'll be happy to continue playing Bioware games in the future. I certainly wont trust anything that comes out with the Atari name, though. I have my doubts that Atari will be around long anyway. I have my doubts that any game they publish will have any support beyond the release date. Look at Temple of Elemental Evil. That is what I expect to happen to NWN2.

btw. Bioware HAS been supporting the NWN community for 4 years now. Atari has not supported the community at all. And with NWN2 .. Atari has basically told the Linux and Mac sides of the community to shove it with, absolutely, no support at all planned for server or client sides in NWN2, for those platforms. If support for those platforms happens, it will be at the expense of Obsidian. Who will probably not see any royalty monies from NWN2 due to Atari's financial problems.

Support..

[Anonymous Coward]

Atari's involvement with ongoing support for NWN was minimal, basically all the patch support for NWN for the last year was BioWare driven and funded and had little Atari involvement. The premium modules program was used to fund continued support for NWN, including the recent 1.67 patch which added a large amount of new functionality and content to the game.

However, the focus of this discussion should not be on the patch support (which we planned to stop sometime this year anyway), but on the fact that several premium modules developed by very hard working groups of the community were cancelled litterally weeks before the finish line, robbing these people of their chance to get professional credit and reward for projects they had worked on for years in some cases.

Some more info:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic =482695&forum=42

Georg,
BioWare

Loss of income and prestige

[PIPBoy3000]

That is indeed the harshest aspect of the whole thing. I remember a year ago chatting with Bioware and getting ready to sign a contract to create some modules. My daughter had recently been born and I was fretting about turning my hobby into a paying gig, so I ended up deciding not to. I feel like I narrowly missed being hit by a bus.

I've heard similar negative things from other module builders. Working with Atari has been a nightmare for many, I think. Initially the modules were supposed to be non-Forgotten Realms, and then later that was switched to only Forgotten Realms. Because of that, the highest ranked module ended up being released for free.

I think Bioware meant well with their Digital Download project and in many ways it has been a success. It subsidized the support for NWN far beyond that of a normal game. As a bonus, many of the coding changes will make it into NWN2, as Bioware and Obsidian share their code. The unfortunate part is that Bioware and Obsidian are simply developers, and Atari and WotC must approve every little thing along the way. Sadly this leads to a situation where the developer means well, but doesn't really control the situation. In some ways I'm hoping this triggers a move away from licensed IPs and we'll see more original IP coming out. I'm guessing the mod teams will follow along to safer pastures.

As I watch Atari struggle financially, I worry about the future of NWN2, which I've invested a lot of time planning for. Yet in a sense I'm secretly happy to see them feel the consequences of their actions over the years.

Bioware CAN'T support NWN.

[Trash]

The worst part of this is that Bioware is not allowed to support NWN even if they want to. Atari have said that Bioware can't suppport it anymore. Probably becaouse Atari wants people to leave the NWN community for the NWN2 community. But I can't as I'm an all Linux user I can't join the NWN2 comunity as it won't run in Linux. So sadly I have to say farwell to the great community around NWN.

Claes