Red Hat Launches Entertainment-Centric 'Mugshot'

Havoc Pennington writes "A small team of us have been working on a new project called Mugshot, we're calling it a "live social experience" and hoping it will bring open source to more people who aren't using it already. The project is public as of this morning. Check out the developer site for more."

Comments

Great performance...

[crossmr]

First visit to the page I clicked "more" on link swarm and it crashed mozilla. Second visit there was some extreme hitching.

Thats not terribly encouraging.

Nice

[eno2001]

Looks like a better alternative to MySpace. At least it might filter out some of the stupid. ;P

omg! u r so cool i am so im'ng all my budys

[Anonymous Coward]

pls tell me u dnnt havve 2b ovr 13 to sing up 4 ths. ok thx.

100% Serious (don't get mad)...

[ImaLamer]

I went to the developer site and looked all over the Wiki, and I saw mugshot.org. I see your (potential) projects, software clients and web functions, but I can't tell exactly what the aim is. Where is the tie that binds all of this?

Anyone can respond, I'm sorry to point my question at the developers. I just want a more fleshed out proposal. The summary would have been a good place to put it, but below will be fine.

Re:100% Serious (don't get mad)...

[Havoc Pennington]

We're trying to do a variety of things that might appeal to people who aren't using Linux or open source already. There isn't necessarily a strong connection between all of them (though there is some "platform" that we've been sharing among features so far, such as an XMPP server connecting everyone's desktop, friend lists, groups, etc.)

There are two very specific features we already started on:
http://mugshot.org/links-learnmore
http://mugshot.org/radar-learnmore

So those are very specific, but the project is open to all kinds of stuff, no need to artificially limit it.

Re:100% Serious (don't get mad)...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr. Pennington,

Please read the next comment. It owns you into next year.

Re:100% Serious (don't get mad)...

[bjprice]

We're trying to do a variety of things that might appeal to people who aren't using Linux or open source already.

Such as? What does it do?

There isn't necessarily a strong connection between all of them (though there is some "platform" that we've been sharing among features so far, such as an XMPP server connecting everyone's desktop, friend lists, groups, etc.)

What's XMPP? What does it do?

There are two very specific features we already started on:
http://mugshot.org/links-learnmore
http://mugshot.org/radar-learnmore

Oh, so you're copying delicious and last.fm. Why?

So those are very specific, but the project is open to all kinds of stuff, no need to artificially limit it.

This is the vaguest response I've ever seen. Do you even want me to use this? Tell me, what does it do?

Re:100% Serious (don't get mad)...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so you're copying delicious and last.fm. Why?

The user experience of delicious and the link swarm feature are really very
different, which is pretty apparent once you run the softare. They both involve
links and people, but delicious is more about bookmarks and recommendations, whereas
the Link Swarm is more focused on "liveness" for lack of a better word - the chat and
swarm are really different. Delicious is also more focused on global links, whereas
our focus right now is more friends/groups. Some more screenshots on our site would
help this a lot.

Right now we're still trying to sort of organically grow the system, and
unless invited by someone you can't really try it. So I think your questions
about exactly what it is are quite fair; we could have managed this better.
Hopefully soon though we will have more open invitations and the world in general
can try it out and get a feel for what the actual experience is.

--Colin Walters, Mugshot developer

Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Anonymous Coward]

The always classy Havoc Pennington of Red Hat today announced a new project, named "Mugshot". And I ask you: what is Mugshot? From the front-page of the project you get absolutely no information of what it does. Reading its "About" page we get a bit more information, but we still can't quite pinpoint what it is exactly: "Mugshot is an open project to create a live social experience around entertainment." We had to read the... Terms and Conditions page just to get a better idea: "Mugshot is an online service that enables Users to share information and communicate with others."

In other words, this Mugshot thing, is nothing but yet another Orkut/Friendster/MySpace-kind of social networking site and client, but with a twist towards entertainment and media sharing. What a useless project. Is this Pennington's super secret project that he has been working on for the past year? Is this what he spent Red Hat's money on? On yet-another social networking site? Instead of using his team, money and energy making Linux and Gnome better (e.g. adding a full Bluetooth front-end, fix the damned phone/pda sync app that's been in alpha for 4 years now, or add video chat on Gaim, or make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files out of your ~ folder), he spends it on this thing that only interests teenagers -- and only for a fortnight until they move on to something else? I am in complete shock.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[jdub!]

Eugenia, Eugenia, Eugenia, when will you learn?

http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2006/05/31/mugshot-mug shot-you-said/

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[el_chicano]

Instead of using his team, money and energy making Linux and Gnome better (e.g. adding a full Bluetooth front-end, fix the damned phone/pda sync app that's been in alpha for 4 years now, or add video chat on Gaim, or make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files out of your ~ folder)

Why on earth should Linux or Gnome ask you for the root password to copy or delete files from a user's home directory??? Linux is inherently a multi-user system and not everybody has access to the root password on systems where they have user accounts.
 
If you want to prevent people from copying or deleting files in your home directory here are a few hints:

man chmod
man groups
man groupadd
man chgrp

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn what? I never tried to hide my identity, I simply forgot to sign it after I copied/pasted my blog post.

It is my crystal clear opinion that this project is stupid and unessasery. Personally, I expected more from Havoc.

Eugenia

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[hp-rh]

1 - It doesn't overlap the functionality of orkut/myspace type sites much, other than "the system keeps track of your friends list" but your mail and IM do that too. Mugshot is not intended to be a "social networking" site in the myspace sense.
2 - I spend my time and energy on whatever I consider valuable... others can do the same with their time and energy. The nice thing about open source is that everyone gets to vote with their work.
3 - there's a Red Hat desktop team still working hard on desktop stuff.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

[got my passwd back, I am now logged in]

LEARN TO READ, before you reply.

>Why on earth should Linux or Gnome ask you for the root password to copy or delete files from a user's home directory???

I did not say about a USER's home directory. I said OUT of a user's directory. For example, when I try to copy a file on to /usr/share/app/ I want the file manager to ask me for a root password so the file operation goes through!

>Linux is inherently a multi-user system and not everybody has access to the root password on systems where they have user accounts.

Oh, really? We didn't know!! :P :P

Look pal, if someone doesn't know the root password, he simply clicks "Cancel" on the dialog. But if you do know the root password, the application should provide you with that dialog and let you do the operation without having to open a terminal to do so, or open another Nautilus window as root. Apple's Finder asks for the password dialog and it's really, really, REALLY convenient. And no, there are no security problems with it.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

>Mugshot is not intended to be a "social networking" site in the myspace sense.

WHAT is it intended to be then??? Because your web site says absolutely nothing about it! It just doesn't spell out, or gives examples, or mockups of what it does. 99% of the people who have commented on Mugshot don't get it. That's your error, as manager of this project.

>I spend my time and energy on whatever I consider valuable...

That's like saying that Alexander the Great has decided to stop inventing other countries and will focus on scuba diving from now on. Good for you, but useless for the rest of us who expect more from the Linux desktop and have associated you with it. And possibly financially-problematic for Red Hat too, and let's not forget that RH is a public company...

>there's a Red Hat desktop team still working hard on desktop stuff.

Oh really? And then why they have done pretty much ZERO desktop advancements in Gnome in the last 1-2 years?? The changes on Gnome the past year are only *superficial*. The juicy stuff, like a full Bluetooth front-end, doesn't even exist in the drawing board yet.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

s/inventing/invading

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

>The changes on Gnome the past year are only *superficial*.

I will give you NetworkManager (mostly developed by RH) and g-v-m (developed by Novell). Other than that, same old, same old in the Gnome land. I say, come back to the Red Hat Desktop Team and make the team develop things as they used to in 2001: full force. That's what we, Gnome users, have missed the past few years.

And then, you come out after MONTHS in secluding offices, and you talk to us about Mugshot, and media sharing and working with the crappiest site of all, myspace. F*ck that. Darn it, it really makes me so angry. Angry because I BELIEVED IN YOU. >:(

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[krmt]

I'd like to echo Eugenia's confusion about what the site actually is, though not her tone. I'm honestly curious because I don't get it. What does it do better than MySpace, LiveJournal, or Last.fm? Do you guys actually use this (I mean really use, not beta test) for anything yet, and if so what?

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

>Actually, Apple's Finder doesn't ask for the root pw. It operates much like sudo.

Who cares what they use?? The point is, IT WORKS for the USER. The user is the No1 entity that needs caring when creating a desktop OS. And if it's risky to shoot a dialog for the root password, well, make the necessary changes to be as secure as it can be.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Skeezix]

In other words, this Mugshot thing, is nothing but yet another Orkut/Friendster/MySpace-kind of social networking site and client, but with a twist towards entertainment and media sharing. What a useless project. Is this Pennington's super secret project that he has been working on for the past year? Is this what he spent Red Hat's money on? On yet-another social networking site? Instead of using his team, money and energy making Linux and Gnome better (e.g. adding a full Bluetooth front-end, fix the damned phone/pda sync app that's been in alpha for 4 years now, or add video chat on Gaim, or make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files out of your ~ folder), he spends it on this thing that only interests teenagers -- and only for a fortnight until they move on to something else? I am in complete shock.

Okay, I will agree with you that the it's not clear from going to the site or the developer site exactly how it works. You have to dig a bit deeper. But that doesn't mean it's useless. Or maybe you just mean useless to you personally. What is useless is your comments and tone. Are you griping about your personal complaints with desktop Linux because you think for some reason Havoc has some personal duty to fulfill them?

It looks to me like mugshot has some innovative bits, but even if it were "just another social networking site" again, that doesn't make it a useless project. Social networking sites are huge right now and not just amongst teenagers. Look at myspace, del.icio.us, youtube, flickr, blogger. Millions upon millions of users of all ages want to blog, share links, share photos, share movies, communicate. And I think mugshot might take an interesting spin on it all. Sorry it wasn't what you wanted, but you don't get to dictate what people work on. Sorry. People work on what they are passionate about. I hope you would do the same...

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[KingSkippus]

Um, I'm pretty good at reading, and I read this the same way that person did. Your exact words were:

make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files out of your ~ folder

I thought the same thing. Why in the world should anyone need the root password to copy or delete files from their home directory? That makes no sense. Because I'm good at pretty good at reading minds as well as reading books, I think what you meant to say was this:

make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files to a folder you don't have permissions to

There, fixed! No need to get all defensive, and no need to give the root password out to users. It all makes sense now, and I'd be much more inclined to agree.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

From that point of view, you are right Jamin.

But there's a back story. When considering the overall picture with Gnome and Linux, including Red Hat's own commercial products, it hurts me seeing such an off topic (and badly explained) project being worked on, while there is so much they could do with their core products. I mean, sure, it's nice to have Red Hat Labs where people can code whatever they want on their 20% of the time (just like Google does), OR, have a special team that works on the science projects (like MS does), or don't developer anything outside the company's focus (just like Apple does). But I have never seen a company creating a labs team by removing them from their main core product that they already had obligations on and putting them working on something that is borderline incoherant and unfocused.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[sethadam1]

make Nautilus ask for the root password when you try to copy/delete files out of your ~ folder

I think she means OUTSIDE of your ~ directory.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[el_chicano]

LEARN TO READ, before you reply.

LEARN TO WRITE, so that you can say what you really mean to say, not what you thought you said!

I did not say about a USER's home directory. [sic] I said OUT of a user's directory.

root access is not necessary to copy files OUT of a user's home directory nor should it be unless the destination directory is owned by root.

For example, when I try to copy a file on to /usr/share/app/ I want the file manager to ask me for a root password so the file operation goes through!

Now that is different, you want to copy a file to a directory owned by root? You should have said so in the first place instead of talking about ~.
 
Hmmm... it seems that you really need to man su and man sudo. Get root access via su or sudo and then launch the file manager as root, problem solved! But no, that is too easy a solution for you. You seemingly would rather have talented programmers waste time putting in a feature that you are the only one asking for rather than doing it the UNIX Way (TM).
 
Besides, user authentication should be a function of the operating system and not of the file manager. Red Hat and Fedora will keep the root authentication token active after you type the password for the first time. If you move or copy a file using a file manager and the root authentication token is active that accomplishes what you need without the need for reprogramming anything.
 
You want to do it the Apple way? Then buy a Mac! However, if you insist on using Linux then rather than whining about missing "features" why don't you program what you want yourself? The source code is there and you clearly have an itch to scratch, so why don't you scratch that itch yourself???

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

>Get root access via su or sudo and then launch the file manager as root, problem solved!

This is exactly what I am trying to AVOID. The user should NOT have to open a terminal to sudo. There are many instances (about 95%), where the user is also the sole user or admin of the machine. Why have him/her open a terminal to sudo when this should be done easily via the file manager. If sudo exists, then the file manager should endorse it too and integrate it. THAT'S usability my friend.

>Then buy a Mac!

I have two, thank you. But I also have two laptops where I run Linux too. And I need them to be more usable. Instead of preaching against like a 70 year old Unix guru, you should be supporting further developments for usability on Linux dekstops.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[schotty]

How does this woman stay in the community as anything aside from a joke? Her ability to consistently miss the point amazes me. The girlfriend shoots trap better than she hits the mark ...

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

If you read the whole discussion on slashdot, no one really got it. And now that I do know what it is about, it feels even more pointless than it was before.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[JanneM]

The girlfriend shoots trap better than she hits the mark ...

OK, that seriously makes no sense whatsoever. Is there an intended meaning embedded in that sentence or is it just words strung together for effect?

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[FooBarWidget]

"WHAT is it intended to be then???"

It is a "work in progress", as written on the front page. Why do you expect it to be a fully finished polished product? It's just a website, calm down!

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[el_chicano]

There are many instances (about 95%), where the user is also the sole user or admin of the machine. Why have him/her open a terminal to sudo when this should be done easily via the file manager. If sudo exists, then the file manager should endorse it too and integrate it.

Like I mentioned before, Red Hat and Fedora will ask for the root password ONCE and then integrate with the file manager seamlessly. What kind of broke-ass distribution are you using that does not do that?

I also have two laptops where I run Linux too. And I need them to be more usable. Instead of preaching against like a 70 year old Unix guru, you should be supporting further developments for usability on Linux dekstops.

I am not preaching against Linux on the desktop, in fact I run several desktop PCs using different distributions and Linux always gets the job done for me. I have no complaints because the distributions I use meet my needs.
 
I have been using UNIX for 30 years and it always has gotten the job done for me. What gets me about those calling for increased Linux "usability" want it to work more like Windows or the Mac. If you want it to work like Windows why not use Windows? If you want it to work like the Mac, why not use a Mac?
 
It seems to me that some Linux proponents live in a dream world where everyone happily runs Linux on the desktop. I really don't see it happening anytime soon, as the Mac is a viable option to Windows and what is its market penetration -- 5%? Windows is buggy and expensive yet the majority of PCs still run it. IMHO rather than change Linux to make it a pale imitation of Windows or the Mac Linux developers would be better served by innovating new ways of doing things...

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Breakfast Pants]

Semantics. I think you mean to say outside. Deleting a file out of a folder sounds like something my grandmother would say when she wants to delete a file in a folder.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[greenrd]

while there is so much they could do with their core products.

Hate to sound like a broken record - but please file bug reports.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Eugenia Loli]

And you think I haven't?

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[Haeleth]

What gets me about those calling for increased Linux "usability" want it to work more like Windows or the Mac. If you want it to work like Windows why not use Windows? If you want it to work like the Mac, why not use a Mac?

Suppose I have a hammer with a comfortable grip, and an axe with an uncomfortable grip. Suppose you come across me chopping wood, and I mention to you that I don't like the grip on the axe as much as the grip on my hammer. Would you tell me to stop whining and chop wood with the hammer if that's what I like?

Some people want Mac usability with Linux value and performance, or Windows familiarity with Linux reliability. These people are not wrong or stupid, and you have absolutely no cause to tell them that they should not want these things.

Re:Mugshot? Mugshot you said?

[el_chicano]

Suppose I have a hammer with a comfortable grip, and an axe with an uncomfortable grip. Suppose you come across me chopping wood, and I mention to you that I don't like the grip on the axe as much as the grip on my hammer. Would you tell me to stop whining...

An axe != a hammer. A Mac == a PC. And yes I would tell you to quit whining when all you need to do is go down to the local hardware store and get yourself another axe. Besides why should I care? If you want to whine by all means go ahead and do it but don't expect any sympathy from me if you chose to complain rather than taking action to solve the problem yourself.
 
 

Some people want Mac usability with Linux value and performance, or Windows familiarity with Linux reliability.

Ah, the myth of Mac usability. How can the Mac be more usable if it uses the same paradigm of icons and windows with a mouse and keyboard for input? Besides if the Mac does not have value to you because the hardware is too expensive then complain to Apple instead of whining to Linux developers to make Linux more Mac-like.
 
Then you bring up the myth of Windows familiarity. People aren't born knowing how to use Windows, they learn how to use it; what is so hard about spending some time learning Linux? I am far from an Microsoft apologist but as far as Windows being less reliable maybe they need to learn how to adminster Windows instead of whining to Linux developers to make Linux more Windows-like.
 
 

These people are not wrong or stupid, and you have absolutely no cause to tell them that they should not want these things.

I did not mean to imply that anyone was WRONG or STUPID or that they should not want those things. All I said is that if anyone has an itch to scratch they should scratch it themselves. This means that if they don't know how to program then they should provide financial support to the relevant developers in order to get their feature implemented.
 
What I meant to imply was that a lot of people currently using Linux are LAZY and CHEAP. To lazy to learn how to program and too cheap to support those who know how!

Classic corporation communication

[Bogtha]

Does the Slashvertisment tell me what it does? Nope.

Does the website tell me what it is? Nope.

Does the developer site tell me what it is? Nope.

Does the FAQ entitled "What is Mugshot?" tell me what it is? Nope.

If you want to know what it is, you have to read the FAQ entitled What does it do?, in which it explains:

Mugshot currently offers two activities:

• Link Swarm - Share web links with individuals or groups in real time, and get live feedback when people visit those links
• Music Radar - Show off the music you listen to using services like iTunes, Yahoo! Music, and others on your web site, blog or MySpace page

Mugshot works with mainstream applications like iTunes, Yahoo! Music Engine, Firefox and Internet Explorer and currently supports Windows XP and Linux platforms, with limited support for Apple's OS X.

So basically it's like del.icio.us with added media specialisation. Timothy, isn't it your job to make sure writeups include enough information to make sense?

Re:Classic corporation communication

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they're trying to be mysterious. Oooooohhh...

Re:Classic corporation communication

[mdavids]

So basically it's like del.icio.us with added media specialisation.

del.icio.us plus Audioscrobbler.

The thing that surprises me is that, for a social networking app developed in 2006, there's no mention of FOAF, RDF, or the Semantic Web on the developers' wiki. Am I going to have to master yet another set of data formats to write applications that interoperate with this?

I'm confused

[fak3r]

I see the 'social' aspect, I see the web catalog style site, I feel like it'll lead to another myspace type feel; but how does it "ring open source to more people who aren't using it already"? I hit the wiki too, but again, no answers. That 'gang like' font sure is the bomb though!

What does it...

[sheepoo]

do?

Am I the only one?

[scaryjohn]

When I saw "Red Hat" and "Entertainment-centric", I thought they were rolling out a media PC distribution, maybe incorporating an optimized version of MythTV.

No?

Re:Am I the only one?

[Overzeetop]

Nope, that's what got me to click through. Unfortunately, it sounds like another [application for people younger than I am]. *shrug* The early clickers got the real message: nothing to see here...

Re:Am I the only one?

[waferhead]

That's what my one remaining neuron came up with first.

I figured RH finally decided to throw a few bones from their warchest at whoever is licensing MP3/mpeg4/divx and actually compete with MS/MCE, legally.

On a pretty wide range of documented hardware, it's a no brainer (see knoppmyth)

You don't get it.

[LWATCDR]

Your time is valuable and you should spend that time working on what we tell you too. It isn't like we could dig into the source and add any of these features ourselves! We don't pay a thing and we demand service! I just can not understand why Red Hat is not into Linux for the Desktop.

Just kidding of course. Your right, you can work on anything you find value in. Just as many people work on programs like GRASS or even Airfoil. I have to wonder why you even bothered to reply to that troll.

Re:You don't get it.

[Eugenia Loli]

>Your right, you can work on anything you find value in.

I am happy for him too. But not happy for Red Hat's main products.

Re:You don't get it.

[LWATCDR]

Red Hat's main products are servers. They seem to being doing pretty well with that.

Exact same thought

[SuperKendall]

Thought the same thing, wondering when we'll see something along those lines.

Linux, eh?

[horati0]

Browsing to the download page with Safari results in the site thinking I have Linux.

Re:Linux, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

same happens with firefox on windows

What about the grups?

[schwaang]

I'm getting that this about "liveness" and personal expression.

The "liveness" space, where we use our broadband connectivity to join together in real time to socialize around some kind of event, is so wide open and undefined right now.

Video conferencing and online games are just a tiny taste of the possible. It will be really cool to see what pops up to fill this space, and I just hope that us grups get to play too.

Mugshot and OLPC Sugar?

[spage]

Is there any relationship or code sharing between Mugshot and the "Sugar" interface for the One Laptop Per Child project? Red Hat's Chris Blizzard blogs about Sugar that "kids can communicate in every app, that they can show each other things, that they can take each other on tours of the web and many other ways of collaborating", which sounds like parts of Mugshot.

Their site has annoying mouse-hover callbacks

[Anonymous Coward]

Every mouse movement on the MugShot home page seems to
generate a HTTP request (when the mouse enters the title area, etc).

I find this quite annoying.