Huge Storms Converge on Jupiter

tpoker writes to tell us NASA is reporting that the two biggest storms in the solar system are about to collide on Jupiter. From the article: "Storm #1 is the Great Red Spot, twice as wide as Earth itself, with winds blowing 350 mph. The behemoth has been spinning around Jupiter for hundreds of years. Storm #2 is Oval BA, also known as 'Red Jr.,' a youngster of a storm only six years old. Compared to the Great Red Spot, Red Jr. is half-sized, able to swallow Earth merely once, but it blows just as hard as its older cousin."

Comments

Nice job, editors!

[grogdamighty]

The summary is spot on! (Ba-dum, chink!)

But seriously, did anyone else think that Hollywood is going to use this as the background for The Perfect Storm II?

Re:Nice job, editors!

[Kagura]

... able to swallow Earth merely once, but it blows just as hard as its older cousin."

Mmm... incestulicious!

Collide?

[thePig]

From the article "There won't be a head-on collision. and the storms' outer bands will pass quite close to one another.
I guess the summary was a little bit of a hyperbole. Esp. for an event that happens every two years.

Re:Collide?

[helioquake]

No, they aren't closer. It's the same as the last two encounter.

What signifies about this particular encounter is that the small oval is thought to be intensified its strength recently (when its color changed from grey to red) and that just *might* cause a bit more interesting interaction between these two storms (when they pass by closely). It's a pure speculation based none other than intuition of scientists. Not based on a hydrodynamic simulation; just a wild ass guess on their part.

Of course, they wouldn't say that. That'd make this whole thing, well, boring.

Re:Collide?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Not based on a hydrodynamic simulation; just a wild ass guess on their part.

Fluid dynamics, particularly on such a massive scale as storms on a planet like Jupiter, is still largely a matter of wild ass "guess"timates. With good reason.

The basic equations of fluid mechanics, the Navier-Stokes equations, are a second order, non-linear system of partial differential equations. Atmospheric gases are also compressible flows. Couple this with aerosols, rotation of the planet, and mondo awkward boundary conditions due to the surface curvature; it's lack of a crust; and the lack of a defined "end" of the atmosphere, finally sprinkling a generous dose of chaos theory in to account for sensitivity to initial conditions.... and you've got a problem that is to all intents and purposes, completely unsolvable.

And that's "just" the fluid dynamics problem. And the continuum hypothesis isn't the only way to solve it. You could use Lagrangian mechanics if one were so inclined.

And these are just theoretical issues. We haven't even spoken about the practical difficulties. First and foremost, throw hope for an analytic solution out the window, because it's not going to happen. You've got to go with a numerical solution. Which brings up the next question of which numerical techniques to you use, and how accurately do you use them. You've got to factor in time, cost and cpu ability. You'll have to parrallelise the whole deal, and make sure it's accurate enough to remain stable for long enough to predict but you want but quick enough so that you'll get your answer before the actual event happens.

And last, but by no means least, once you've got that data, how do you analyse it? How do you even present it? Remember, we're talking about 3d vortices here, embedded in a globe. How do you make sense of it all. What points are of interest? What events are key? What can you learn from all this? What size font should the image titles have? How will you make a paper out of all this!?

Faced with such an operation, you're often better off performing a simulation when faced with a fluid mechanics problem, or in the case where simulation is impossible such as with Jupiter, just make a wild assed guess, sit back and enjoy the show.

Re:Collide?

[Orp]

Congratuations. You've just described what I go through trying to simulate tornado-producing thunderstorms. Even the "how do I present the results" part. Something I deal with on a day to day basis. As far as presentation goes, I like raytracers to present scalar data and feature-detection software to find vortices. Throw in stereo viewing, animate the sucker and at the very least you've got some cool pictures and movies.

Re:Collide?

[VoidEngineer]

I agree with you on most all accounts. What I would mention, however, is that meteorologists already do -pretty much exactly what you're describing. Weather simulations for earth effectively have to deal with everything you've just described; from chemical reactions in the atmosphere, to rotation fo the planet, to the awkward boundary conditions due to surface curvature, chaos theory, and the like. And you know what? Meteorologists will readily admit that the problem is mostly unsolvable. And furthermore, they have exactly the same numerical analysis solutions that you've described; and they have to resort to using supercomputers specifically designed to model weather simulations. If one looks at the most commonly investigated computer problems, historically, you pretty much wind up with weather, nuclear bombs, and chess.

That being said, we enjoy a good 5 days of prediction of weather patterns nowdays. I remember when I was a kid, and the computers weren't nearly as powerful, and we only had 2 or 3 days of prediction. Now we have fairly good predictions for up to 5 to 7 days.

Sure, initial parameters are different for Earth and Jupiter, although the problem isn't as intractable as you make it out to be. Societally, we have alot of collective experience modeling the types of problems you've described, and it would really only be a matter of modifying the initial parameters of our weather simulations to match those of Jupiter.

Something which I, for one, expect somebody at NASA to have done already.

Blows as hard as the older cousin...

[eric_ste]

And she could swallow earth.

At 350Mph, that's what I call a massive blow job...

The Environmentalists Are Right.

[bombadier_beetle]

Clearly, this is evidence of Jovial warming.

Re:The Environmentalists Are Right.

[Bob Cat - NYMPHS]

Jovial warming

What, is that supposed to fill us with conviviality and good cheer? ;)

Oh, great.

[HisMother]

the two biggest storms in the solar system are about to collide on Jupiter.

Crap. There go my weekend plans.

looting martians

[legomad]

Martian looters will be shot on sight.

ahh

[ezwip]

Red Jr. is half-sized, able to swallow Earth merely once, but it blows just as hard as its older cousin. Ahh yes, I dated them in highschool.

I would love to see it happen

[w33t]

I LOVE astronomy. I think it is simply the most profound thing that we have been able to take the eye and stretch it to points beyond imagination. To look out into the cosmos is so humbling and awe-inspiring. Truly if one science has shown us simple magnificent beauty it is astronomy.

Now having said that I will say that only one thing makes astronomy better - seeing these object in motion! Galaxies and nebula seem so unreal in hubble's photos - it's hard to fully comprehend what exactly they are - what they are really like. But when you view those precious few object we have been able to capture in motion, to me it is exquisite! Somehow, to me, it makes them that much more real, more tangible. And that is truly the dream of the soul - to somehow touch, taste, smell that which is so beautiful :)

I hope these astronomers string together this phenomenal convergence into a movie!

Jupiter's storms in motion
Solar flares

Do you have any other cool astronomical movie links?
--
Music should be free

What I want to know...

[wtansill]

is what FEMA intends to do about this?

Wise Man Say

[isecore]

When it blows on Jupiter, better cover Uranus.

Umm...

[Davus]

a youngster of a storm only six years old. Compared to the Great Red Spot, Red Jr. is half-sized, able to swallow Earth merely once, but it blows just as hard as its older cousin."
I'm not sure what intergalactic law is, but over here, we call that "statutory rape".

Re:Umm...

[alienmole]

Dude, you're on Slashdot. If you were some bimbo news anchor on MSNBC you could get away with saying intergalactic. But this isn't even interstellar! It's in our own solar system, for crying out loud. The word you want is "interplanetary". Hey, and don't thank me - I kill jokes for free.

Discrimination, I tell you

[patio11]

Why does Slashdot always accuse Martians of looting but when Earthlings do it its merely "copyright infringement"? Discrimination, that's why. Why the prejudice against the Martians? If you prick them, do they not ooze?

Re:Pretty Sweet "Amateur" Telescope ..?

[Tablizer]

What kind of strength/magnification do you need to see Jupiter in that resolution?

You are not going to get Hubble or Voyager level views. Many amatures now digitally enhence their images such that you see more in the photo than what the eye would see in the scope. One fairly recent technique is to take hundreds of digital images and then digitally average and realign the detail. The Earth's atmosphere wiggles and sometimes acts kind of like a magnifying lens. If you can capture these magnification spots when they occure and add them up, you get a nice photo.

Anyhow, I would guess that you need at least an 8-inch reflector or 5-inch refractor to see the two spots with recognizable detail. It also depends on sky conditions and viewer training. It takes a while to train the eye to see detail on planets thru a scope.

On all counts

[guet]

Societally, we have alot of collective experience modeling the types of problems you've described, and it would really only be a matter of modifying the initial parameters of our weather simulations to match those of Jupiter.

The problem being that Jupiter does not have a constellation of satellites collecting data 24/7 and a huge number of ground-stations recording weather conditions at regular intervals all round its surface.

Without that data, what would you plug into your simulation, guesses?