Has My Cell Number Been Cloned?

2bepissedoff asks: "According to my T-mobile phone bill, I have been receiving incoming calls from a 'NBR unavailable', since February, with talk time ranging from 1 minute to an hour. The strangest thing is, I have never received these calls (my phone doesn't ring and I haven't talked to the caller). I only started noticing them when my phone bill was charged over $40 more than my regular bill. Of course, I have a family plan (2 people only, 2 lines) and I talked to my partner. The answer: he too had not received any of these calls, especially over 300 minutes per month of them. We called up T-mobile twice and claim the possibility of phone cloning. Both representatives hung up on me, thinking I was trying to con them or something. Any advice to what this could be?" I did a little investigation and I've noticed that some of the NBR minutes overlap with calls I actually make. For example:

'2/22 at 3:28 pm "NBR unavailable" 17mins usage.
2/22 at 3:44 pm "-(# I made)---" 3mins usage.

So if you add up the time 3:28pm + 17 mins = 3:45 pm. The time when I made my call was at 3:44 pm. This reoccurs several times. I still do not think this is enough evidence to convince T-mobile of Phone Cloning. So I am thinking of switching either my number or my service provider. "

Comments

It's probably the NSA

[Beached]

Have you seen all the spy movies. They are listening to your calls ;)

Re:It's probably the NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen all the spy movies.

Uh dude, I think you mean the evening news.

Assume they are listening to your calls. This administration has a record of serial lying; they admit what they're caught at red-handed and say, "well, okay, we do A, but we would never do B, and the implication that we would is insulting and gives comfort to the enemy."

Then a few months later we find out that at the time of the denial, they were doing A, B, C, and D (torture, kidnapping and illegal rendition to torture countries, domestic spying on Americans, leaking identities of CIA agents, other petty acts of revenge on perceived enemies, etc.).

Don't reference fiction, man, the reality is more disturbing.

Re:It's probably the NSA

[Em Adespoton]

Hey... that's pretty efficient government! They listen in on your phone conversations, and you get billed for it!

Re:It's probably the NSA

[Mistlefoot]

As an employee of a cell phone company who works in Customer Care I'll offer my two bits.

1) When you call customer care ask for and write the down the Care agents name. If they hang up on (unless you are being incredibily agressive and swearing) that information will be handy to their Supervisor. Call back and let that be known.

2) Both the IMEI number on the handset and Sim Care will be recorded. If both do not match on a disputed call this is strong evidence of cloning.

3) You have 3 way calling, you have voice mail - two calls at one time is not an anomaly in itself.

4) Ask for a Supervisor if you do not recieve care at a lower level.

5) View your online account and watch you billing daily if you think this is a cloning problem. Trying to remember a call from 5 weeks ago is not easy.

6) Don't dispute calls in general. Dispute specific calls. We can look up specific calls. Saying I have 47 billed minutes I didn't use means nothing. Saying, the call to 123-456-7890 on 6/03/06 at 2:57pm was not made by me. We can actually help with that.

7) Correspond via email instead of calling. Over the phone pressure exists to keep the lenght of the call down. Via email agents can research your issue without having to leave you on hold - the pressure for resolution in a 5 minute phone call is not there.

8) When you hear this often in a Call center you do become immune to it. People lie all the time - a popular one is "I have bad coverage" only to find out after reviewing their account that they've used 2800 minutes this month and are happy to accept a discounted handset with a 2 year deal. People with truly bad coverage do not renew for two years and have 2800 minutes usage per month. As such, it is easy for a Care agent to dismiss you without much investigation. Do not give up after 1 or 2 calls (or email). This does not mean that you are right, merely that your issue will be investigated more thoroughly the second or third time. This is normal in many businesses.

switching the number won't work

[Incongruity]

without changing your SIM card, changing the # won't make a difference, I believe.

Get a new account -- new SIM's for both you and your partner and do it sooner rather than later, for your sake =)

Re:switching the number won't work

[Bob535]

I agree, working for a Cellular Company, the easiest way to fix this would be to call in and ask for them to replace your SIM card. No need for a new account, just ask them to send you out new SIMs. If this doesnt fix the problem, ask for a ticket to be filed and an engineer to call you back with the explaination. The agents dont know anything anyways.

Re:switching the number won't work

[SenseiLeNoir]

If its a GSM phone, I very much doubt any cloning has occured for the following reasons.

BTW, I used to work for Logica, in the telecoms division, and have a LOT of knowledge of GSM systems, and how they work. I am also a T-Mobile (UK) customer.

Remember these facts:

- A GSM phone has a unique IMEI number.
- Each GSM phone has a unique SIM card with a unique SIM number. This SIM number is attacted on a central computer to your account.
- Although the SIM card does contain your number, it is many for informative, and not operational purposes.

When you switch on your phone and it logs onto your network, it sends its IMEI number, and its SIM number to the network. The network then looks up the SIM number and associates it with a number. As it stands, only one SIM number can ever be associated with a phone number. When i tried getting a new SIM to replace my aging SIM, the old one was disconnected before the new SIM was issued, as it is simply not possible to associate a number with two SIMs. You can associate a SIM with two or more numbers, but not the other way round.

If someone HAS cloned your SIM, and both phones are attached at the same time, the network would register a fault, as a SINGLE sim number is assiciated at two different locations. It woudl create a fault in the system which would prevent both yours and the clone SIM from working. This is actually one of the main reasons why Cellphones are not usable on Planes (even if it is prooven to be safe to the electronics). The phone woudl try to log onto multiple cells at the same time, causing a lot of strain on the network, or even malfunction.

A SIM can only be "effectively" cloned if the original was never used afterwards. If both the Original SIM and the Clone was used at the same time, the network will try and continuesly switch between the two cells its registered to, unless both are on the same cell. if both are on the same cell, further issues would happen.

I am not sayign that cloning is impossible, its just extremely unlikely.

I woudl think the most likely causes of this situation are:
- Are you *sure* your partner is not recieving the calls? Really sure?
- Maybe, if you visited another country (or performed roaming) there might be some residual temporary numbers assigned to your phone.

However, the way the records are kept, you shoudl find that its pretty easy for the phone company to determine what happend. Who made the phone call, what handset was in use, where the call was recieved.

Finally I do not know the laws of the US, but here in the UK, the first point of call if you think your phone has been cloned or if your believe that a crime has been committed regarding your phone is the POLICE.

In UK, if we recieve am abusive call, calling the phone company will not be any help. They will rightly ask you to contact the police first, and they will work with the police to resolve the matter.

Re:switching the number won't work

[julesh]

In UK, if we recieve am abusive call, calling the phone company will not be any help. They will rightly ask you to contact the police first, and they will work with the police to resolve the matter.

Actually, BT has a department that customers can call if they're receiving abusive calls that offers advice about how to deal with them, and actively encourages people to call them before the police. I suspect other phone companies handle it in a similar manner.

Re:switching the number won't work

[SenseiLeNoir]

Well, contacting the company they may be able to resolve the immeadiate problem of the bills, and issue a replacement SIM. The can only deal with abuse of the system, but not with a crime. Only the authorities can do that.

Here is a good example of a call I did very recently with T-Mobile, and BT. I started recieving abusive calls on both my Mobile, and my landline, with an anonymous number. I reported to both companies, who noted down the call, and ensured that evidence will be kept. then they asked me to contact the police with my details to take it further. They were unable to tell me who was doing it, without police intervention. hey both offered to change my number if I wished.

I contacted the police, and as part of the investigation, the POlice authorised a line monitor on both my lane line and my mobile, as well as records on the lines. I was then contacted by BT and T-Mobile seperately explaining how the line monitor works.

in some cases, BT may be able to respond to certain abuses quicker directly, as they own the entire network, including the lines going into your house. But with regard to a crime (which is what cloning/makign abusive calls are) they refer you to the police as well.

PS. I dont understand what part of my original post is "flamebait", as someone has modded it.

Re:switching the number won't work

[SenseiLeNoir]

Note i said SIM NUMBER.. not SIM ;)

it is possible, and indeed within the spec to have two SIMs attached to a phone number. When a call is recieved, both phone are alerted, and whoever "picks up" answers.

Each SIM NUMBER has to be unique. if two physical phones with the same SIM number connects, the system will not be abel to tell them apart, and will fault.

If a SIM is cloned in such a way that two different SIMs with different numbers have the same phone number, that "clone" would have to be created by the phone company (which would need to adjust their database), and therefore is an inside job, not by Mr Joe down the street.

Re:switching the number won't work

[3247]

As it stands, only one SIM number can ever be associated with a phone number.

Actually, O2 Germany offers this as a service. (Yes, you actually get two accounts - one per SIM - which just share the phone number.)

It woudl create a fault in the system which would prevent both yours and the clone SIM from working. This is actually one of the main reasons why Cellphones are not usable on Planes (even if it is prooven to be safe to the electronics).

No, GSM can handle this quite well. In towns with a high base station density, it is also possible that multiple cells are visible.

Re:switching the number won't work

[SenseiLeNoir]

actually he said the calls were RECEIVED (incoming). if i called someone, and can tell that a person "accidently" answered the phone (whilst it was in their pocket) I would hang up, and try ringing again. I woudl not hold the call for an hour!

To be honest, it looks like his partner probably had another "partner".. who called that line "number witheld", and was just fobbing him off, sayign that his phone may be cloned. That seems the most likely situation.

(the fact the calls were INCOMMING, and the number was unavailable are the biggest clues)

Re:switching the number won't work

[wfberg]

BTW, I used to work for Logica, in the telecoms division, and have a LOT of knowledge of GSM systems, and how they work.

That's not really a good advertisement for Logica then.

The IMEI has next to nothing to do with any sort of security function of GSM. It only identifies your handset, and some countries have a registry that they'll put your stolen phone's IMEI on so networks can prevent the handset's further use in that particular country among the operators that signed up to the registry, but IMEI is not checked against your subscription. In fact, that's one of the primary design tenets of GSM; subscription data is contained in the Subscriber Identity Module; the SIM.

is simply not possible to associate a number with two SIMs. You can associate a SIM with two or more numbers, but not the other way round.
This is false. Many operators offer dual SIM cards; both cards contain the same subscription data, and usually the last one activated is logged on to the network succesfully to receive incoming calls. Both can make outbound calls.

If someone HAS cloned your SIM, and both phones are attached at the same time, the network would register a fault
No, it works, though you will notice only one handset receiving calls. It's not registered as a fault (though it is registered).

A SIM can only be "effectively" cloned if the original was never used afterwards. If both the Original SIM and the Clone was used at the same time, the network will try and continuesly switch between the two cells its registered to, unless both are on the same cell. if both are on the same cell, further issues would happen.
Again, not true.

In fact, if certain algorithms are used (IIRC, COMP-128) it's even possible to reconstruct the SIM's KI and clone it using information eavesdropped over-the-air (be afraid!).

- Maybe, if you visited another country (or performed roaming) there might be some residual temporary numbers assigned to your phone.
Which numbers would those be? The connection between your MSISDN and most-likely (or actual) away-network is always looked up via the home registry; the away-registry doesn't associate any temporary MSISDNs to your SIM, it doesn't need to. And if it did, and someone misdialed such a random number, how would they be supposed to get through to you? Their home registry simply won't accept entries for SIMs from your network.

However, the way the records are kept, you shoudl find that its pretty easy for the phone company to determine what happend. Who made the phone call, what handset was in use, where the call was recieved.
Spoken as some one who's never tried to get a phone company to look up something in their records. Good luck trying that. Yes, it's technically feasible, but that doesn't mean phone companies are organizationally capable of doing this.

Finally I do not know the laws of the US, but here in the UK, the first point of call if you think your phone has been cloned or if your believe that a crime has been committed regarding your phone is the POLICE.
No, first call the phone company to report fraud, so they can put restrictions in place (e.g. no international calls, no premium toll numbers) to prevent ongoing abuse and rising phone bills, and report and investigate at leisure.

In UK, if we recieve am abusive call, calling the phone company will not be any help. They will rightly ask you to contact the police first, and they will work with the police to resolve the matter.
Again, no; "British Telecom has its own unit, which deals with nuisance calls. If you have not already reported it to BT then contact them on 150. They will investigate first and if they can trace the calls, you will then be advised to make a formal police report to your local police station. Cable & Wireless and mobile phone companies require that it be reported to police before they will deal with it. Attend your

Re:switching the number won't work

[DM9290]

I also work at a telecom company (I will not identify which), and am involved with the development of logic for real time processing of phone calls. You put far too much faith in telecom systems checking for what may or may not be a nonsensical situations. It is far easier to simply process and complete a phone call, than to speculate on an infinite number of potentially contradictory situations which may arrise which might suggest foul-play.

There is nothing implicitly wrong with completing 2 phone calls at the same time. And while there may be cases where it makes no sense, there are so many cases where it makes sense that generaly speaking it is easier to allow it than to presume there is a problem. A call appearing on a bill for a persons cell phone may not even involve a CELL call or a cloned SIM card at all. It could be a land line which the telco wrongly associated with the cell customers phone bill. There may be nothing wrong with the CELL network at all, but a mere data entry error in the billing system.

We are first and foremost concerned with insuring that our customers (or any party which even appears to be a customer) are able to completing their phone calls. Failing to complete a good call is considered a much more serious error than erroneously ALLOWING the completion of a fraudulent call. The rule of thumb is.. when in doubt : complete the call. In fact, I would say that while our systems are 99.999% reliable, their ability to stop fraudulent phone calls is NOT 99.999%. Or at least I can say our testing and so forth in that regard has not been enough to make such a claim.

So... does my code care if you complete 65 phone calls at the same time? no. For all I know you have a service which allows you to complete 65 phone calls at the same time. And if such a service doesn't exist right today, for all I know someone will dream it up next week. It is not for me to speculate.

As a hypothetical:
If the same phone line initiated a call from 2 seperate switches simultaneously, there would be no information passed between the 2 switches to detect such an impossible situation. The difficulty of trying to insure such a check was functioning in real time exceeds the benefit.

In fact... even if we could detect such situations in real time, I would be loath to presume that it was in fact wrong. What if those 2 switches are load sharing? What if Switch A, initiated Call #1, and then experienced a problem causing calls to be routed to Switch B? I would need to think of every possible situation to insure I didn't accidentally break functionality that ought to work.

We design telephone systems to work when there are serious failures all over the network. We don't want to be the one responsible to not completing that phone call that results in someone dying or whatever.

You can pretty much assume telephone networks (to the extent that they would BLOCK a phone call which looks funny) are not bullet proof.

If some technician tells you they are, that technician doesn't know what he's talking about.

I would be amazed that a customer support person actually hung up on a customer who wanted to know about the possibility of cloning a SIM card.

Do Not Put Up With That

[eldavojohn]

Both representatives hung up on me, thinking I was trying to con them or something. Any advice to what this could be?

Here's some advice: Don't take that shit.

You're a human being. But more importantly, you're a paying customer. Call them up, get the guy's name. Inform him that if he hangs up, you'll contact his supervisor. Then ask him what zip code these calls were made from, they should be able to figure that out. Verify that it's something reasonable.

If they won't believe you and you can convince them you're not making the calls, try calling the number and letting your phone ring. See if anyone picks up.

If that doesn't work, simply demand they change your number for you.

If they refuse to do that, be sure to inform them where you're taking your business.

Personally, I'd be pretty damned pissed if anyone ever hung up on me when I was simply inquiring as to why they were charging me money. In fact, I know right where I'd file that complaint.

If I had a credit card associated with the account, I'd call my credit card company and dispute the charge. You explain to the credit card company that they hung up on you twice. What the operator will do is put you on hold while they contact T-Mobile. The operator should introduce you to the T-Mobile rep and try to resolve the issue. If T-Mobile has a call from a credit card company, I'm certain they'll be a bit more understanding when they're looking at the possibility of having to chase down a stopped payment.

Re:Do Not Put Up With That

[barzok]

Don't bother with the BBB. Your time is better spent moving up the T-Mobile chain of command. The BBB has no teeth and won't help your case against them.

I filed a claim with the BBB a couple years ago and all I did was fill out paperwork (well, web forms). I was never interviewed by the BBB, never called by the BBB, and they never (to my knowledge) contacted the company I filed the claim against to work with them as my advocate. I have no evidence that they did anything at all.

The hours I spent documenting & compiling everything for the BBB, everything I sent them, may as well have been pitched into a black hole.

Re:Do Not Put Up With That

[Billosaur]

Here's some advice: Don't take that shit.

That's the best advice you'll get. You pay them to provide you with mobile phone service and in return they promise to provide that service. The onus is on them; if someone is illegally using your phone number and wracking up hundreds or thousands of dollars in calls you did not make, they have a vested interest in determining if this is true and putting a stop to it. The easiest way for them to do that is freeze yor account and issue you a new phone number. I have T-Mobile and managed to lose my phone in France; I called them immediately and they were able to freeze my account that instant, preventing anyone from making calls and I was able to get a replacement as soon as I got back.

Try calling again -- keep calling until you get someone to listen. Try to cut right to the heart of the matter -- tell them you think someone is making calls using your number. A CSR should be able to pull up your current calling records and verify what you're terlling them easily enough.

As an aside, why is it possible for calls from the same number to be going on simultaneously? Wouldn't there be something to prevent that, unless you were using a three-way calling option?

Re:Do Not Put Up With That

[mutterc]

Not very many people know quite what the BBB's powers are:

• Stats collection, as others have noticed. Anyone can get a report on a company and find out how many complaints (and, more importantly, unresolved complaints) have been filed.
• If the company is a BBB member, then all complaints must get resolved (note that this doesn't mean resolved in the customer's favor), or the company's membership gets dropped. BBB provides arbitration to facilitate this.

That's pretty much it.

A selection of things they can't do:

• Force any company to do anything. They can terminate a member's membership (and keep them from using the BBB logo, etc.) but that's it. They have no authority at all over non-members.
• Know about every company. (E.g. I can go into business without notifying anybody except licensing boards and taxing authorities; I certainly don't need the BBB's permission).
• Tell you some company is legit, non-legit, a scam or not, etc. You have to make up your own mind after reading the report. (Think of the slander lawsuits, even from scamsters!) There are exceptions for blantantly illegal things like foreign lotteries, fake cashier's check scams, etc.
• Give customers legal advice (the legal industry would rather they didn't, and BBB CSR's would rather not be liable for practicing law without a license). They'll certainly refer you to the AG, postal inspectors, etc. if you want help putting the legal smackdown on a scamster. If you just want to know whether something a company did was legal, gotta ask a real lawyer.

Re:Do Not Put Up With That

[Mortanius]

Late last year and early this year I did a nine-month stint at Radio Shack, dealing a lot with both Sprint and Cingular customer service (oddly I almost never had to call Verizon for anything, their activation system worked like a charm for me), and yeah, cell phone companies hang up on everyone, even people selling phones for them. There's always a few bad apples, just call back and ask to go straight to a supervisor, make sure to get everyone's name that you talk to just in case.

And at the same time, remember, the CSR's aren't always able to give you the information you're asking them to, they aren't always just trying to brush you off. Instead of getting angry and shouting and cursing and, in one case, farting over the phone (go figure), just get their name and talk to a supervisor, they may still not be able to help you but might be able to direct you to someone who can.

While eldavojohn's suggestion may well be what it comes do, don't come out of the gate guns blazing, demanding this and that and not letting the rep speak. We're all humans, in spite of our best efforts if the person on the other end of the phone responds to our "Thanks for calling-" by shouting and demanding things without letting us speak, there's going to be some level of agitation, and that's going to interfere with reaching an acceptable resolution. Stay calm and be firm yet polite and things will be worked out with much less stress and much more quickly than they would be otherwise.

And please, for the love of god, don't file complaints against people like RS employees who don't even work directly for the phone companies, our hands are very tied in what we can do with the carriers. Being in a relatively well-to-do area, everyone had a holier-than-thou attitude and I ended up dealing with calls from my superiors almost daily about my employees who honestly did everything they could to make things right but just didn't have the power. Yeah, it's a pain to have to deal with middlemen who are forced to basically ask you to hold on while we get Sprint|Verizon|Cingular|Alltel|US Cellular|NEXTEL on the phone, but remember too though that most of the time we have our own numbers to use that take us straight to the people who (generally) have a clue.

(sorry, got ranty on that last one. :-P)

I've had this problem also..

[GonzoTech]

.. With Verizon Wireless. They wouldn't help me resolve the issue over tech support forums, or through phone call tech support. Know how I got it fixed?

I showed up at a Verizon Wireless sales center, yelling and complaining (trust me, I can throw quite the tantrum,) until a manager finally got in touch with someone to fix the issue.

I got three months of free service for the trouble.. and since I've had perfect phone bills.

Never underestimate the power of being an ass when you're not treated fairly..

Re:I've had this problem also..

[Finque]

A properly trained front-end employee will hand over an unsatisfied (and unruly) customer to a manager ASAP. A manager is specially trained to handle situations like that. The GP took the quick road to getting results - no cell store wants someone screaming about their service, they could lose potential customers. I've watched managers bend over backwards for someone who's screaming.

Besides, by working at a place where you deal with the public, you basically agree to be yelled at.

Re:I've had this problem also..

[doughrama]

Seriously, being an ass doesn't always get you what you want. In my previous life where I did tech support for an ISP, I would only offer the bare minimum (at best) of help for the assholes that called in. However, if you were pleasant I'd bend over backwards doing everything I could (including bending/breaking policy) for you. In fact I became so aware of my attitude and actions towards the different types of customers I had to deal with that I decided to try being overly nice to see if it was easy to get my way. turns out, it *almost* always works... And sometimes it's super fun! And sometimes the people you talk to are just dicks and nothing is gonna work.

My favorite CSR story happened a long time ago when I had a dial-up account... I didn't pay the bill for three months and they shut off the account. So I called up Earthlink (I think) to pay the bill in full and get the account turned back on. I was unemployed at the time so money was tight. In any case I talked to the tech support guy, being very nice and polite the entire time. For whatever reason he was apparently having a bad day and decided that he was going to take it out on me. I kept my composure, and just rebuffed his attitude towards me by continuing to be nice. As I was getting the billing straightened out, he told me that they had a $40 (I think) reconnect fee. Having been in the dial-up ISP business previously (not with this ISP though,) I was totally confident that waiving the re-connect fee was entirely up to the CSR. Keep in mind, this CSR had had an attitude with me this entire time up to this point. So I asked him "Would you please waive the reconnect fee?" You could hear the devilish joy in his voice as he prepared to smack me down "What is the reason that your reconnect fee should be waived?" He was sooo excited when he asked me that because he knew I didn't have a good reason, I simply didn't pay the bill and he was more than ready to tell me no. So rather than get pissed, like I wanted to (it was like he was taunting me,) I decided to go for it and say the stupidest thing ever. "Because I'm a nice guy." There was a rather long pause as his attitude shifted from an evil glee to astonishment. He said, with an extremely condescending tone, "You want me to waive the reconnect fee because you're a nice guy?" I almost burst out laughing, having suddenly realized the ridiculousness of my request. I paused for half a moment and simply said "Yes." I judged the situation slightly wrong though, turns out this CSR didn't have full discretion over the reconnect fee like I had at my old job. My response wasn't on his script so he couldn't say yes or no - he had to get permission from his supervisor. This was like the greatest revenge ever, considering his treatment towards me. With an irritated, but confident tone he said "I'll have to go talk to my supervisor about this, please hold." and off he went. I sat on my end just reveling in the whole mess, I was ruining this guy day by simply being nice and polite, and the harder he tried to ruin my day the worse his was getting. A couple minutes goes by he gets back on the phone. Totally indignant, he proceeds to tell me "We're going to go ahead and reconnect the account, along with waiving the fee. We are ONLY GOING TO DO THIS, THIS ONCE. WE WILL NEVER WAIVE THE FEE FOR YOU AGAIN!" The volume and authority in his voice went way up in the last bit, he finally got his little opportunity to inflict what pain he could on me. I said "ok, thanks." And that was it.

Had I gotten all pissy and demanded I speak to a supervisor I for sure would've been shutdown down one way or another, by being nice I got to have a lot of fun and get my way.

Re:I've had this problem also..

[toleraen]

The GP took the quick road to getting results

Huh. Last time I walked into a sprint store to drop my service and take care of some weird billing, I just walked up to a sales rep and asked to speak with a manager about account issues I was having. They walked me over to the manager, and I got things taken care of. All without making myself look like a total jackass! It's amazing what being a decent person gets you every once in a while.

Re:I've had this problem also..

[tompaulco]

Such is the state of the world. If you are not an ass from time to time, you will not get what was promised you. You will not get your car fixed under warranty even when it is covered. Your company will not reimburse your expenses when they promised. You will not be given an annual review or raise, you will be shorted fries at McDonalds, you will be overcharged on phone bills for calls you didn't make, you will be billed for 976 numbers you didn't call, etc, etc. "You get what you pay for" is BS. You MAY get what you pay for, if you grab onto it with both hands and scream and yell, otherwise, you will get less.

Why make things difficult?

[gellenburg]

Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

Just dispute those calls with T-Mobile and let them figure it out.

If your bill was over by $40 go back and tell them you didn't receive this call, you didn't receive that call, didn't make that call, etc.

They have the data to know when and where the calls were received based on the cell towers that the phone was received from.

Keep escalating the issue dude.

Call back and immediately ask to speak with a supervisor.

Get names.

Record the dates and time you called and who you spoke with.

Keep escalating up the chain of command if you have to.

If that doesn't work, file a formal complaint with the FCC and your State's Public Service Commission. That'll definitely get their attention.

Good luck!

Re:Why make things difficult?

[winnabago]

They have the data to know when and where the calls were received based on the cell towers that the phone was received from.

He mentioned that there is overlap, but only (in this example) by one minute. I would look for a more obvious instance, and on the same number, because this one could be explained by loose rounding to the next minute.

Also, aren't bills with multiple numbers broken down by call to/from each phone? Mine is, I believe.

Re:Why make things difficult?

[srussell]

Get names.

Excellent advice. I'd like to add that this one bit of advice is the most powerful thing you can do. Every time you talk to customer service, the very first thing you do is get the name of the person you're talking to. The whole name, first and last. Make sure you understand it. If they mumble, ask them to repeat it until you understand it. It doesn't hurt to ask them to confirm the spelling if you have any doubt about it. I usually write it down while I'm talking, if it is convenient.

Then, and only then, start discussing the reason that you called. It also helps to use their name while you're talking to them, to remind them that you really did keep track of the name.

I find that this makes more difference in how good the customer service is than any other tactic you can try. Yes, a rep can give you a bogus name, but I haven't had a single one give me attitude or hang up on me since I started doing this. I also try to not be too much of an asshole; I tend to say things like "I know that it isn't your fault that I'm having this problem, but it is really pissing me off, and I want it fixed."

As per the original post, I've found T-Mobile to give superb customer service, but I've been with them since forever, so they probably like me.

--- SER

Get in T-Mobile's Face

[rizzo]

Did you really need to "Ask Slashdot" about this? If T-Mobile's CSRs hung up on you, then you march down to the nearest store and let loose on the first salesperson you see. You *should* have gotten the names of those CSRs (I always make a point of writing down the person's name when I call any kind of support) to give to whoever it is that finally *does* take your complaint. Either they or their manager should be fired.

And, once you get this issue resolved, leave T-Mobile.

The question is...

[RobertB-DC]

I still do not think this is enough evidence to convince T-mobile of Phone Cloning. So I am thinking of switching either my number or my service provider.

You ask the question, "Has my cell number been cloned?" I ask the more pressing question... "Has your brain turned to mush?" DUH, if you're getting calls that you're not getting, then there's a problem.

You say "Both representatives hung up on me, thinking I was trying to con them or something." I say, you need to adjust your message to give them the facts -- customer support reps are only human. If you ramble on with your life story, or rant and rave, or interject useless details, then you might get hung up on. But T-Mobile gave me good service when I had them (I only dropped them because they didn't have good service in the middle of nowhere, where I live). If you call and say "Here are the calls that I neither made nor received. Please remove them from my bill and block me from ever recieving calls from the associated numbers." I can't imagine they'd refuse.

There's also the distinct possibility that the owner of the second line isn't being straight with you. I'm reminded of a poem I read on the bus:

By the time you swear you're his,
Shivering and sighing,
And he vows his passion is
Infinite, undying -
Lady, make a note of this:
One of you is lying.

-Dorothy Parker, Unfortunate Coincidence

Re:My "partner"?

[electronerdz]

Wow... that was uncalled for. I had assumed by partner, he meant business partner. I will be taking on a business partner soon, and I would put him in a "family" plan if I had that type of service, because inter-calling would free in most cases. Even if it isn't his "business" partner, so what? Why do you have to use all the language? And of course, you assume the first person is a guy.

Come out of the closet, self hating fag

[Anonymous Coward]

Nowhere in the article does it say 2bepissedoff is a guy. Some women, especially in the tech world, hide their gender and use the word partner because they would rather have horny IT guys assume they are gay than a girl. Now ask yourself, why would "faggot" be the first thing to pop into your head? Why would such graphic images pop into your head? What is your subconscious trying to tell you? It's okay, stop hating yourself and admit what you are and what you like. You'll feel better in the end (pun intended.) People may make fun of you for it, but most of them are self hating fags, too.

While we're throwing labels around

[linvir]

You're a self-righteous tosser. He's not talking about 'getting what he wants', he's talking about not being conned out of his money by Verizon. And what does "hurting people" have to do with anything, apart from making him sound worse in comparison to you?

Overlap

[RomulusNR]

Most GSM phones can handle two calls at once (a la call waiting/etc.), so overlapping times doesn't prove cloning.

The only theoretical way I am aware of to clone a GSM phone is to copy the SIM or have a SIM with the same subscriber number.

A simple fix would be to get a new SIM card. You can get your existing number transferred over to the new card. If its a card clone, then a new card will solve the problem.

Dunno why the customer service kept hanging up on you (was it really a hangup or a dropped call?), considering they supposedly have the best customer service in the business.

or....

[MagicM]

Or your partner is cheating on you, did receive those calls, and is lying to you about it.

(Just saying. It happens all the time.)

Okay..

[thebdj]

First off, your 17 minutes example is poor. The call could have ended at 3:44 and still be listed as 17 minutes, remember cell companies traditionally round you up to the nearest minute. If you had more then a possible 1 minute overlap example that would be different. Second, how well do you trust this "partner"? If they would presumably be on the hook for the overages if it was their fault, then they have motivation to lie same goes for if the calls are coming from someone they don't want you to know about...though I do not know what type of relationship you and this "partner" have.

Next, either go to a B&M location and bitch to someone in person, have bills in hand, or send a letter/e-mail to customer service. The letter and/or e-mail are ignorable, but at least someone should attempt to read it. IF you actually show up at a location you are pretty much non-ignorable. Be sure to express anger, but do not do anything too stupid. IF worse comes to worse, threaten legal action against the location, the employees and T-mobile (always casts wide nets, threatening individuals works because they don't want to lose their money...loyalty to their business is probably minimal.

So make sure to verify that neither you nor your partner received the calls...then go make a stink in person.

Call Waiting

[Jhon]

So if you add up the time 3:28pm + 17 mins = 3:45 pm. The time when I made my call was at 3:44 pm. This reoccurs several times.

This can occur if your plan has call waiting or 3 way calling. I speak from the experience of an elder monitoring the cell phone usage of teenagers (who should NEVER EVER EVER have cell phones in my opinion).

If you've got T-Mobile, the bill should break down WHICH phone is receiving the call (either yours or your partners). If it's happening on your partner's bill, I would suggest it's more likely that your partner is lying to you than the phone was cloned (just statistically speaking -- nothing against your partner).

Another possibility is that the entry on your bill is "bogus". The result of a computer glitch and you'll need T-Mobiles help to resolve the problem.

Re:Call Waiting

[adinu79]

One question, I'm not familiar with the American way of billing phone calls. Are your GSM companies also billing the people receiving the calls? In Europe, AFAIK, they are only billing the people making the calls and that's it.

Re:Call Waiting

[lonesome phreak]

In America, we bill everyone we can for anything. If your phone plan doesn't have something like "free incoming minutes" then yes, both parties are getting billed for the usage.

The Problem is....

[Grantisimo]

The problem is that t-mobile does not acknowledge that cloning exists on their network. I used to work in T-mobile customer care. We got calls about this at least once a week. Most were just paranoia. The answer was always the same; "It is impossible to clone a SIM." Not much that you can do against that.

Re:Partner?

[fruitbane]

We can assume he is gay, or...

We can not bother because it's irrelevant to the question. Ask Slashdot isn't really a forum on sexual choices.

He's cheating on you

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't look for zebras when all you have are horses, or, always look for the simplest answer.

It sounds like your boyfriend is cheating on you and is telling his new boyfriend to use number blocking (*67). Then when you ask him about it, he denies everything.

A few things

[squiggleslash]

I'm a big fan of T-Mobile, one of the only quality mobile networks in the US (even if they're restricted to the crappy 1900MHz band), so I'm disappointed you apparently are getting bad customer service from them.

I do recommend being careful about how you word it, when you talk about "phone cloning" and stuff then you're getting ahead of yourself. Let's address that first though:

Phone cloning is possible with GSM, but improbable, someone would be going to great lengths, buying equipment worth thousands of dollars, just to save a few dollars to make outgoing calls (the cloned cell is going to be unusable for incoming calls, after all.) While mobile phone cloning was a great business in the mid-nineties, that was when it was easier (plenty of analog phones, which could be cloned just be reflashing a second phone), and when mobile phones weren't exactly accessable to a sizable portion of the population.

Today, you can pretty much anonymously buy a prepaid mobile phone from any store, with a wide variety of minimum costs, generally of less than $10 a month from at least two major brands (T-Mobile and Cingular.) There aren't many people who'd want to clone phones, with the risks associated and the costs of doing the cloning to begin with, and the limitations on receiving calls, given the circumstances.

Your example isn't that convincing either as such circumstances would occur during call waiting or conference calling. I use both regularly, so my bill is full of these things.

The two most realistic circumstances are that there's a software error on T-Mobile's side, or that you're simply mistaken (possibly in terms of receiving the calls, or possibly in terms of how you're interpreting the bill.) Stop talking in terms of "My phone has been cloned!" and tell them that you and your partner believe these calls to be non-existant. Explain that they appear on your side of the bill, under your number, and you know you didn't receive them. Ask them to investigate.

Re:A few things

[jimwelch]

Clonning can still happen. It can be done by employees of a cell phone repair service. Many in the USA are "independents" or one/two man shops. They have the equipment, training, and modivation (profit).

You get charged for receiving calls?

[silasthehobbit]

Oh dear God!

My phone bill would be hundreds of pounds a month - rather than the £15-£20 it normally is - if this happened in the UK. Over here, we get charged for making calls from our mobiles (cell phones), but the person calling my mobile is the one who gets charged for ringing me - I don't get charged for that unless I'm in a different country.

How come American consumers haven't risen up and complained about this? It seems a bit of a rip off to me.

--
silas

Re:You get charged for receiving calls?

[pe1chl]

Incoming calls don't cost me money, but when I am not careful and send a text message to a 4-digit number I could subscribe myself to continuous incoming text messages that cost me money.

In fact, some people already had the problem of sudden paid text messages without knowingly subscribing to such a service, and without information on how to unsubscribe.

The providers, who very well know how to invoice these services, suddenly hide behind bullshit "we do not know" and "we cannot tell" arguments when you try to find out who is behind such scams.

Re:You get charged for receiving calls?

[sholden]

Because whether the caller or the callee pays the extra cost for the mobile call is pretty much irrelevant and works out even in the end.

Why do you have to pay extra for calling someone on their mobile phone instead of on their land line? Seems a bit of a rip off to me.

Re:You get charged for receiving calls?

[petermgreen]

Why do you have to pay extra for calling someone on their mobile phone instead of on their land line?
you are the person who decided the matter was important enough not to wait until the person was back in touch with a landline, the callee on the other hand has little choice but to pick up if its someone they even vaugely recognise (or no caller id). so you should bear the cost of using mobile communication.

Fair Credit Billing Act

[Kagato]

Simple writing a formal letter of dispute under as defined by the Fair Credit Billing Act. Send said letter to the billing dispute address (usually on the back of your statement.) Indicate the calls you do not beleive you made, and the adjustment you beleive you deserve. If T-Mobile does not reply, IN WRITING, to your dispute they automatically lose the right to collect $50 or the disputed fee. Which ever is less. Make sure to send in Payment for the portion you do beleive you owe. I suggest spending the extra couple bucks to get delivery confirmation.

If they do not comply, file a formal complaint with the FTC and your state AG office.

t-mobile can't hang up

[Anonymous Coward]

hate to tell ya, but i used to work in a t-mobile call center, and it is not possible to hang up, they are not using phones to talk to you they are using a computer terminal that has T-mobile's proprietary software on it and well, there IS NOT a hang up button.

Similar problem = months in hell

[kiscica]

I had a similar problem with AT&T Wireless a long time ago (ca. 1998), when they first introduced their "one-rate" service (no extra charges for long distance or roaming, a major innovation back then). For about three months, every single call I made or received appeared twice on my bill: once listed under the actual time I made or received it, and once listed precisely three hours later. That is, for every 17-minute call at 8:53, say, there'd be a corresponding 17-minute call at 11:53. I immediately recognized that this had to have something to do with the fact that I was using a phone with a New York number in California (three-hour time difference). The net result was close to a thousand dollars in overage charges -- while I was careful to keep all my usage under the 1500 minutes per month included in my plan, I was getting charged for more like 3000 minutes at a ridiculous overage rate of 25 cents a minute.

The first month the problem showed up I thought it would be a quick fix -- obviously no rational human being could think that I was studiously duplicating every single one of my hundreds of calls exactly three hours apart.

Silly me.

I went through eight months of hell trying to get an AT&T representative to acknowledge there was a problem. I must have made at least 100 calls, sent numerous faxes and letters, and spoken to at least 20 different "supervisors" -- they kept "disappearing," forcing me to start telling the story all over again each time I called.

To a man/woman, they all kept insisting that if the calls appeared on my bill, I had to have made them (since we all know computerized billing systems never have bugs). Until the very end I never got a single one of them to admit that there just MIGHT be a problem if every single one of my hundreds of calls appeared precisely twice, 3 hours apart, on each bill. No, I simply had to have made those calls, there was no other explanation.

Naturally were flatly unwilling to refund the overage charges which, as I mentioned, reached almost $1000 by the third bill. (I didn't cancel the service because I was dependent on it - it was my only phone line, there was no number portability back then, no other service offered "free" roaming/LD which I needed as a New Yorker stuck in California). They did agree to let me pay only the non-disputed charge until the dispute process was over, but soon started sending me dunning letters anyway.

The problem stopped happening after the third month, but I spent most of the rest of the year trying to get them to reverse the excess charges. It was hell, no other word for it. It wasn't the prospect of having to pay a thousand dollars that scared and angered me, it was the simple fact that a large and respected (!) company like AT&T obviously had a policy for its customer support people that went "no matter how obvious it is that the customer is right, you must insist that he is wrong." I don't see how any rational person could fail to recognize that what happened was a massive computer billing error, but as I mentioned before, I never got *anyone* to admit it. By the end, my conversations with them were so psychologically draining that I was starting to wonder if it really could be my mistake somehow.

The very end of the saga -- eight months later - was that I finally managed to talk to a manager who agreed there was a problem, told me that many others had experienced it, and canceled all the excess charges, just like that. So, basically, they'd known all along that there was a problem. and just kept stonewalling in the hopes that I'd break down and pay them.

That experience marked the end of my innocence about big, respectable business. In a very real sense, I "grew up" over those 8 months.

Speak to tech support

[crashbumper]

I used to work in the cell phone business, and here is an easy way to have them check for cloning. Speak with technical support, and have them check which towers you are pulling service from when these calls occur. If you make a call at 3:28pm connected to a tower in Los Angeles, and then 15 minutes later it says you are connected to a tower in San Diego; that is proof enough something weird is happening. Just highlight all these questionable calls on your bill, then ask to have the calls just before and jjust after checked to see which towers are in use.

Depends on where you live

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

The BBB is a national organization but their local operations have a bizarre amount of autonomy.

I got a settlement from a car dealer after just a couple of phone calls after contacting my own local BBB branch. Some of them do work like they're supposed to.

I had issues with T-Mobile...

[mosch]

I had some problems where they sold me a phone with a $100 rebate that didn't exist in their system.

I got resolution by:
a) Writing a letter to the president of customer service (Sorry, I don't seem to have the name and address on this computer.)
b) Complaining to the BBB

They wound up crediting my account with the $100 rebate twice, once for each method of complaint. I didn't stop them, because I figured it was just compensation for the absurd amount of time it took to get it all sorted.

I got better efforts out of customer service by walking into a local T-Mobile store, where I'd purchased the phone, and asking the sales representatives to assist me with my issue, but those efforts got no results.

Re:Suggestions

[bcattwoo]

3. Are you SURE your partner isn't really receiving these calls? I.e., have you been with him at known times when these alleged calls have come in?

I didn't get this part of the story. On my "Family Plan" bill from Verizon there are completely separate sections for each phone showing the calls made to and from that particular phone. I would assume that T-mobile indicates which phone the calls are being made to or from on its bill as well. No need to question the partner if the calls are being charged to the poster's phone. On the other hand ...

Sad, but true

[blueZ3]

It's very annoying, but it seems like the only way to get problems resolved anymore is to act like a jerk.

I've had a couple of experiences where being reasonable and polite got me nowhere with customer service, but when I got frustrated at the end of the conversation (after being told several times "there's nothing we can do") and basically gave them and their manager hell over the problem, it got resolved ("OK sir, we'll send out a replacement right away").

The most frustrating thing about this (to me) is that I don't want to have to be an ass to get a problem fixed. In fact, I go out of my way to do business with companies that fix the problem the first time when I come and politely ask for assistance. I don't recall this being the case in my younger years, but that may be more a result of my memory than an actual decline in customer service.

Re:Sad, but true

[Negadecimal]

It's very annoying, but it seems like the only way to get problems resolved anymore is to act like a jerk.

Problem is, the bad customer service epidemic is now conditioning people to pull the "jerk" card before they really need to.

For example, my company prides itself in customer service, to the extent that we have never not replaced a broken product, even when well outside of our posted warranty period. Nonetheless, we get daily calls where people begin rudely insisting that they're going to get what they want... and before our reps have a chance to tell them that they will. I honestly don't blame the customers... it's just a sad statement about our service culture.

Re:Sad, but true

[vondo]

If you buy something in a store, it is the store's resonsibility to make sure you get what you paid for when you walk out of the store. He should not have to wait one day, let alone 4-6 weeks to get all the right parts. The store can call the 800 number to get the parts and replace them in the box they just opened.

I'm skeptical - T-Mobile service is great

[PCM2]

The fact that this guy/gal is saying the T-Mobile reps hung up is what makes me skeptical of this whole story.

I know you almost never hear a statement like this about any company -- which is why I'm going to come out and say it -- but I've actually been nothing but satisfied with the customer service at T-Mobile. I've had to call numerous times, for various reasons, and the rep on the phone has invariably been extremely courteous.

I think I can count one occasion where the person I spoke to didn't really seem to understand what was going on and I ended the call without getting much satisfaction. I called back later with the same problem, spoke to someone else, and got the problem resolved. All the other times I was escalated to the level of support that could help me with my problem with no fuss, quickly and politely. I've even been handed off for second-level support to RIM for my Blackberry when it was necessary; nobody even gave me the slightest hard time. And they always, always thank me for my business -- sometimes the dumb little things count.

Another time I noticed an instant messaging charge on my bill that seemed out of place (I get unlimited SMS). Instead of getting mad, I just wrote up a quick e-mail on their Web site stating plainly that I thought the charge was erroneous and I'd like it reversed (please). A few days later I got an e-mail back saying, sure enough, they decided it was a mistaken charge, were reversing it, and were giving me 20 free anytime minutes also. No problem.

So I'm extremely skeptical about this whole story. T-Mobile hasn't been winning J.D. Power customer support awards for nothing. For two different reps to actually hang up on somebody tells me that either A.) somebody called up, screaming and yelling irrationally and refusing to take any kind of due process to address the issue; or B.) somebody's making up a story for some reason.

(Of course, it could be possible that the submitter is talking about T-Mobile in Europe, which I can't speak to.)

Re:I'm skeptical - T-Mobile service is great

[jedidiah]

I dunno. I've gotten excellent customer service from t-mobile in the UK but any time I've interacted with their people in the US I've wanted to strangle someone afterwards.

Re:I'm skeptical - T-Mobile service is great

[Johnboi Waltune]

I've had very bad experiences with T-Mobile. Last week I called to INQUIRE about their prepaid plan, and a couple days later, I found they had switched me over to it without my permission. After three calls, I managed to get them to switch back to my old plan. However, my mobile email no longer works, and the CSR I spoke to told me I never had mobile email for the past 2 years. She actually claimed I had imagined sending and receiving all those emails from my phone. Another CSR believed me, and claimed he could fix the problem, but he was unable to.

So... after 5 years with T-Mobile, I am ditching them due to the morons I spoke to. The only other GSM game in town seems to be Cingular. They have mobile email, but it's only MSN, Yahoo, AOL, etc.

Be less "helpful"

[Dun Malg]

We called up T-mobile twice and claim the possibility of phone cloning. Both representatives hung up on me, thinking I was trying to con them or something.
The problem is that you're trying to supply a conclusive diagnosis to the T-mobile rep when you actually ahve no freakin' idea why those charges are appearing. Quit trying to offer them an explanation up front. That sounds like a con. Just give them the symptoms-- i.e. calls/charges on the bill that aren't yours-- and let them figure out what's happening.

EVERY phone system has problems like this.

[Valdrax]

I work for one of the top 5 American cell phone providers specifically in the department that maintains the billing system. This is the suite of systems that go from switch records to taxed and formatted bills to be sent off to the printing houses (as well as roamer records to be shipped off to other providers, records for partners, etc.)

Let me tell you something you may not realize -- all of these systems have bugs. Some of them are horrible bugs. Bugs like ringtones getting double-taxed or calls getting billed when you ring a number but don't get an answer with absolutely no way to tell the difference between a legit call and a call that didn't answer.

Some of these bugs are due to flaws within the billing system. Some are bugs in the switch data (the absolute worst kind because there's no good way to filter the data when good and bad records are all marked up the same). Some are tables screw ups that lead to entire bills getting mangled. Some of these bugs get caught by the bill checking department and others may go for months without being noticed until a customer complains.

"Number unavailable" calls are most likely from records that were sent to the billing system with no other party number populated (or populated with some default "we don't know what this is" value). Our system simply replaces the other number with your own number and keeps going. Other providers probably cover for it in some other way as well.

What you have may in fact be legit phone calls that had mangled or incomplete switch records or records from the inter-carrier clearinghouse. Alternately, you may have junk data that you don't deserve to be billed for. It's all up how your company handles such complaints on what to do with about it. I know that my company frequently requests us to go find how many customers were affected and by how much so that we can either strip records from the bills and rerun them or go back and credit the customers proactively. We always try to err on the side of underbilling rather than overbilling customers because it's better to lose some money up front and give customers a pleasant surprise rather than after a nasty lawsuit with all the bad publicity.

However, if T-Mobile hangs up on you, that just isn't right. Call them up and simply say that you'd like to dispute the charges and have their billing team investigate where the records came from. That'll probably lead to a bug report being filed somewhere in their bureaucracy and a fix for you and others having the same problem. If they give you crap, then switch providers. It's not like there aren't multiple GSM service providers in the US now.

Reasons: how american cell plans work

[TheMCP]

American cell phone plans come with a largeish (600 - 1500) number of prepaid minutes attached to the plan... so, I pay $40 a month, but the first 1000 minutes of calling (in either direction) don't cost me anything more. Also, there are cheap add-ons to allow, or some plans even include, features such as free calls after 7:30pm or free calls on weekends or free calls to family members. (I can get both free nights and free weekends for another $10 a month, for example.)

So, put these things together and for $50 a month (just slightly more than the cost you mention for your monthly bill) you can end up paying a bill that doesn't actually charge you for any calls except calls to non-family members made before 7pm on weekdays that exceed the first 1000 minutes. For most people, that far exceeds actual usage, so they don't care if incoming calls are being included because they almost never end up paying a per-minute rate anyway.

To sum up

[goldcd]

It's virtually impossible to close a GSM phone - and surely if somebody had, they'd have been making obscenely expensive outgoing calls on it. Two possibilities:
T-Mobile have cocked up - they can easily check the calls and get more information about them to confirm if this is the case.
Your partner is lying/mistaken about receiving calls. If I had a suspicious mind, I'd just 'borrow' his phone and check the call log on the handset - see if one of the mysterious calls appears there.

Re:You get charged for receiving calls? - Cheaper!

[Anonymous Coward]

The total telecom costs are more competitive and come out less expensive in a system like ours (North America - mobile party pays for incoming and terminating calls; no landline to mobile termination fees).

In the UK (and most other countries), the landline-to-mobile rate is fixed at a high price. The mobile companies have no strong incentive to lower their termination fees, because they're not charging "their" customers - it's the other schmucks (landline customers) who get the shaft (customers they want to steal away from landline!). Of course there could be some limited competition on the landline side to get the "lowest" mobile termination fees, but in the end the landline carriers still have to negotiate that with the mobile provider. How much would 1000 minutes cost from landline to mobile in the UK? £36.10 - £215.40, depending on the carrier and time-of-day?

In the North American system, the entire minute bucket of incoming and outgoing minutes is negotiated between the mobile provider and their direct customer. Therefore, there is significant competition between carriers to provide the lowest total price. In other words, when you select a carrier here, you are negotiating the price on both sides. Over there, you are only negotiating the outgoing side of the equation (for the most part). How much would 1000 minutes (either direction) cost in the US? $40 (or free on nights/weekends)?

In the future, it seems like unlimited wireless is a distinct possibility (it already exists in my market!). In North America, that means that there will be no mobile-related charges whatsoever for incoming or outgoing. Do you think that foreign carriers will let go of mobile termination fees even if/when outgoing calls become free (unlimited)? In my case, I could pay $70/month and nobody would pay any per-minute fees to or from my phone!

Re:Similar problem = Cingular

[Trojan35]

I was billed for 350 text messages in the span of 2 minutes. I called and told her I didn't do that and wanted the $35 refunded. She said "it's in the system." I pointed out that it was physically impossible for anyone to send that many text messages in 2 minutes and that I had used text messaging 0 times in the year i'd been with Cingular. Her response? "Computers don't make mistakes."

Maybe I was a little harsh: "You're an idiot. I'm cancelling my account not because of Cingular's service or this charge, but because you ma'am, are an idiot." The cancellation rep tried to convince me to stay and generously offered to cut the charges in half... "I shouldn't have to negotiate how much I pay you for your mistake. How about you refund the full amount and then pay me $100 in consulting fees for the hour I've spent identifying bugs in your system?" Then came the offer of a full refund, and I still cancelled.

Re:Seems Wrong.. Cell phones work in airplanes...

[david.given]

What? What about when you are on the ground and happen to be standing in between 3 different towers, an equal distance from each? Wouldn't that be the same kind of situation you are talking about in an air plane?

Because all the cells need to negotiate with each other to ensure that your phone is only logged in to one cell at a time? And if you're on a plane, not only can your mobile see a lot of cells (meaning that negotiation is expensive), but because you're moving fast, the system has to renegotiate very frequently as you move from cell to cell?

I Had a Similar Problem

[popo]

I had a similar problem involving T-Mobile "T-Zones". While idle, my phone
was apparently contacting T-Zones. In fact, once in a while I'd 'catch' it
making an (autonomous) one minute T-Zones connection (because the phone
would light up).

Since I wasn't a T-Zones subscriber, T-Mobile billed me for each and every
connection, even though the connections were happening 'automatically'.

For the first few months I didn't notice it because I was on the road and
running up massive phone bills anyway, but by the time I realized what was
going on, I was $5,000 in the hole. It took months of phone calls to customer
service for them to even acknowlege that there was a problem. I even made a
short video of my phone 'turning itself on and connecting to T-Zones'.

I will say, that T-Mobile ended up being great, and clearing my bill of
all the charges, but only after 50 or so calls to CS.

Total nightmare.

Re:I Had a Similar Problem

[2much4u]

I too have T-Mobile in the States. I had a similiar issue where as I had 2 phones on my plan. T-Mobile was nothing but entirely professional with me, able to cut the phone off while talking to them, and turn it back on 8 hours later for no fees, etc... (I actually did suspect my 'Partner') I have a feeling that you definitely did not talk to the CSR properly. Don't try to diagnose the problem for them, simply question the calls that you didn't make. I know from my T-Mobile bills, that each line is split out and detailed by default from T-Mobile, so you should know from looking at it which phone line is in question. If it is your partners' line, you might have to evaluate your trust in your partner and even the people around where your partner would store their phone. But in either case, T-Mobile has never hung up on me, so either you got the wrong Rep or you simply were not talking to them properly. GOOD LUCK !

Re:My "partner"?

[Foobar of Borg]

My, what a vivid description. It appears that you have been putting a considerable amount of thought and visualization into this.

I wonder what that could mean... (not that there's anything really wrong with it).

Tinfoil hat theory

[LoverOfJoy]

or C.) The criminal mastermind using his phone is also monitoring his calls and disconnected him when he started talking to the T-mobile rep about what was happening.

Re:Seems Wrong.. Cell phones work in airplanes...

[Andy Dodd]

Simple. Because the network was designed such that for users on the ground, it is NOT possible for a phone on the ground to be visible to more than one tower on the same frequency with similar signal strength, as towers in adjacent cells operate on different frequencies within the carrier's assigned band. If weird propagation DOES cause more than one tower on the same frequency to be able to hear the phone, it is easy for the network to figure out which tower is appropriate based on the signal strength. (The signal will be very weak at any tower other than the nearest one to the phone.)

This changes when a user goes above the maximum altitude of a user the system was designed to handle. All of a sudden the user will have LOS *with high signal strength* to multiple towers on the same frequency. In older systems, this could cause calls to be billed multiple times. In newer systems, multiple billing is eliminated and the network can handle it, EXCEPT that even if the phone is only communicating with a single tower, it will still cause significant interference with other towers that it normally would not, and as a result a handful of airborne users can significantly decrease the capacity of the network. Essentially, instead of being a single user in one cell for the purposes of capacity handling, they become an additional user in every cell within LOS of the aircraft. (Remember, even if they aren't actively communicating with a particular tower, their signal is still present and causes interference.)

Re:Seems Wrong.. Cell phones work in airplanes...

[SenseiLeNoir]

Whereas you do make valid points which are very possibly true, you dont say why my point is nonsense. It is perfectly possible that both of us are right!

I told you, I worked for LogicaCMG, we provide manufacture Mobile Network equipment (Logica Mobile Networks). If you dont know who LogicaCMG is and the size of its involvement in Telecoms, well back in 2003, 75% of the worlds SMS all went through LogicaCMG Software. So now you know my experience, and expertise, let me continue.

WHen a plane that is so high up crosses a densely populated city with a high cell density A cellphone will attempt to log onto many of those cells at the same time. Both the phone and the cells on the network will see almost equal "signal strengths" (distance between plane and ground is greater than distqance between cells, litttle bit of elementary geometry required here.. sorry I dont have a picture decribing the phemonenom). As such the netowrk does some form of conflict resolution which is communication and processor intensive.

s the plane is flying at a high speed, its possibel the phone is connecting on and off to many cells in a short time (signals are weaker too), this causes a lot of strain on the network, sometimes causing it to go down temporarily as its automatically restarted.

Multiply this by 100 or more phones on a single plane, and you can see how much of a strain this can be on the network.

A network glitch like this looks bad to the operator, as customers on the ground are cut off their calls for a few seconds (there are some SLAs that operators have to publish here in regards to call disconnections)

Our reasearch was actually contracted by Orange, and O2 in 1997 to helpfind ways to improve the ability to deal with mobiles on planes affecting cells on the ground.

We have tested this phenomenon in our test labs many times to try and improve the systems.

Together with better switching algoritms on the cells, and also the use of PICO trancievers located on the plane itself, we believe we have found some solutions for operators.

But it is TRUE that the mobile networks were imforming the FAA and other airline bodies about this problem. Face it, they woudl me most happy for the extra income created when thier phones are used in the air, but currently their systems can break when they are.

Before anyone informs me that cells were being used in one of the 9/11 planes. The plane was flying low over an area with much lower cell density.

Unknown calls are bullshit

[TibbonZero]

Ok, so the phone company acts as if they don't know what the numbers are? I call bullshit. Do you think the list that they turn over to the NSA/CIA/FBI has 'unknown caller' written all over it? Fuck no it doesnt. It probably gives the phone number, account holders name and address of every call, if not far more.

I really really hate it when companies play stupid. I lost a cell phone a while ago and went to the store. I wanted them to stop service on that line while I got another phone, and asked them if any calls had been made from the phone in the hours since I lost it. They said that they couldn't get those records. Fuck that. Say an FBI agent went into the store and needed the same information due to "Terrorisim". The information would be instant. I also asked if there was any way to guess what city the phone was in and if it was moving. They flatly responded no. (I had lost my phone in some cab I had taken that day, and if i knew what city it was in i could have called that cab company). I know that this is possible since they have been tracking down "crimials and terrorists" by using triangulation on their cell phones.

I was a paying customer standing there and being lied to. I had another problem on a land line. I was getting calls from a fax line about 10 times per night from an 'unknown' number. I called the phone company several times. They said that since it was unknown number they couldn't do anything about it. I asked if they could block that number from calling me. Nope, since it was unknown. Now what if I had called the police/fbi and said that they last number that called my fax had sent terrorist threats, or maybe that it was a person talking about their jihad. The number could have been found out within minutes.

So on your company, I also call bullshit. I am sure your records that they are turning over to big brother are accurate, and the ones they had you are probably not. Now let me go pack my things. I am sure that for thinking too much i'll be picked up any time now by the thought police.

Re:Unknown calls are bullshit

[SuperRob]

Just one little problem with your hypotheses. You're going to a STORE for this information. If you want that data, you need to go past retail, past even customer service, and up the chain of command. The FBI would never start an investigation by requesting call records from a STORE.

Re:Unknown calls are bullshit

[onepoint]

net time you loose your phone, call the service department and tell them you lost your phone. they will pleasantly give you the location ( within 1 block ), the last 20 phone calls, and send that phone a text message. I've done this 3 times and got my phone back 3 times. it's all in the manner that you speak to the reps. also it does not hurt to keep your GPS active ( that helps pinpoint the phone to 1 block ).

Onepoint.

Re:Similar problem = Cingular

[taustin]

Her response? "Computers don't make mistakes."

"Yeah, that's why there's a multi-billion dollar a year industry to repair them."

Is this T-Mobile UK or USA?

[theraz0r]

Either way, unless someone got a hold of your SIM card and copied it, I doubt you have been cloned. And generally in cases like that, the usage is much higher or there is more substance other than some calls to and from an unavailable number. I'm not saying the truth isn't stated here, but I find it very hard to believe two times you have been hung up on unless you have been VERY abusive. I think the best thing to do here is have someone from T-Mobile investigate the issue for you. Call in again and tell them in a nice, concise way that you are seeing calls you don't believe you have made and would like to see them investigate it. I wouldn't mention cloning as I highly doubt this is the reason you are seeing this.

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[PayPaI]

You can press a phone code to turn off your call id, and number forwarding, so that the recieving party cannot trace you. (in the u.s.) This was done so that victims of abuse could call home without fear of being traced. The phone company dosen't get that number either.

Lies. The company gets the number no matter what. CID blocking is just that: blocks anyone with "Caller ID" from getting your number. Anyone with ANI will still get it. Do you think that you could block CID when you call 911? "Sorry, we don't know where you are!"

moron, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) i see nothing in the article you referenced to imply that *only* 800-number calls can be picked up, across the board. 2) Caller ID: "... This special code does not block the information from companies using Call capture technology ... Emergency services will most likely be able to show the restricted number using a service called Calling Line Identification Restriction Override (CLIRO), or by using general ANI services."

the couple times i've been forced to call 911, they've certainly been able to locate me based on phone signal... and, well, i haven't got an 800-number, nor was i calling one.

so, while technology may not be "magic" ... the idea that "CALLER ID BLOCKED" is a be-all and end-all statement isn't necessarily "moronic", either.

Re:moron, eh?

[cg0def]

Yes caller id blocking is only so that you the end user cannot see who's calling you but the point was that the guy went to the store and was pissed off that the people there couldn't help him. Those people really have no access to the caller ids and they really cannot do much as to finding your phone if it gets lost.

Re:moron, eh?

[Harik]

So you're trying to tell me that phone companies blindy allow CLECS to send unknown calls into their system?

Yup. Be nice though, he's probably just wrong, not trolling. Not too long ago, I would have argued the same, until I found out how to do it.

ANI is spoofable on most switches. Trivially if you're using a digital service (ISDN or T1), less so on analog lines but still possible. Note that I'm not talking about Caller-ID here, but the ANI service that large T1/T3 customers get (NOT 800-only). The SS7 network is as badly designed as SMTP when it comes to spoofing.

The issue is that it was designed to be spoofable for common applications such as forwarding, so that the original ANI was forwarded to the new destination, rather then getting a call from yourself/your company. Of course, there's no way to distinguish from a forwarded call and a new call, so effectivly you create a new call with bogus ANI and then patch it in to the inbound call.

The other reason is DID lines need to be able to say what number is calling out. You could have hundreds or thousands of numbers all resolve to one trunk (Think any fortune-500 company), so it's the responsibility of the PBX to give the caller's ANI. As was pointed out on Schiner's blog, while you could filter ANI, the current software doesn't make it remotly practical to do so. So any DID line can spoof ANI.

Whee!

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[egburr]

Even though TV tells you that cell phone triangulation is a common practice, it's not. Triangulating on a cell phone call requires police, on foot, with three antennas, to find the right signal and take a measurement, from there they sit down with a map and work it out. This isn't built into the phone system, and its certainly not automatic.

Triangulation is difficult, as you describe. However, I have visited my local police communications center, and I can verify that they DO get the information about which cell tower your call goes through when you place a 911 call. Yeah, that only narrows it to a circle with about a six mile radius.

It may not be as automatic if the police are tracking your phone around, but the technology is there. The cellular company should be able to identify the tower you're near if your phone is on, even if you're not using it right then. Over time, tracking your movement by cell tower, they should be able to get a decent idea of what road you're on.

But, the people in the stores won't have access to that, and the regular customer support people won't have access to that. Some cellular companies are even providing phone tracking on the web as an extra-charge service for your kids' phones.

HLR can only have one VLR profile for your sim

[Kodack]

Okay so in answer to the posters question:

When you power your mobile on it attatches to the network and is added to the local switches VLR (visitor location register) which is a database of who is on what switch and what radio and base station they are on. The MSC (mobile switching center) then sends a request to the HLR (home location register) which is like a VLR except instead of tracking what radio they are on, it tracks which MSC they are on. So if someone calls your phone, the system does an HLR lookup to see what MSC you are on, and then the call is sent to your current location.

If someone were cloning this persons mobile then they would be attatched to the network 'twice'. This is not allowed and it would cause the 2nd mobile to be unable to attatch to the network.

Think of it like this, your SIM card contains an IMSI (international mobile subscriber identifier) which is a long number that corresponds to your account. When you are attatched to the network it is by SIM/IMSI and the HLR notes which VLR you are in. If a 2nd phone tried to attatch with the same SIM/IMSI information then one of two things would happen because someone can't be in two VLR's at the same time. Either the new SIM would be rejected because the old one did not do a handover to the new VLR. Or the old SIM would be removed from it's current VLR and attempt to re-attach, which would kick off the other SIM/IMSI back and forth.

So if you leave your mobile powered up 24x7 your making it very difficult for someone else to get on the same network and pretend to be you because you can't be in two places at once. And as long as your sim is inserted and your phone is powered on you are attatched to the network, whether you make a call or not.

If you are still concerned have Tmobile set up a call trace on one of these calls or check the IMEI of the calling phone. IF it's in Europe they will have an EIR which keeps track of the IMEI (international mobile equipment identifier) which is like a serial number for the phone. Even if someone cloned your SIM they can't clone your IMEI so it will be different.

With a call trace they can track the LAC and CellID of anycall placed and tell you where it's originating.

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[CRC'99]

Third and Finally - Even though TV tells you that cell phone triangulation is a common practice, it's not. Triangulating on a cell phone call requires police, on foot, with three antennas, to find the right signal and take a measurement, from there they sit down with a map and work it out. This isn't built into the phone system, and its certainly not automatic. One reason for this is that one of the better ways to triangulate a signal is to measure the signal strength - if cell phone providers measured signal strength at all their towers consumer groups could gain access to those records durring the disclosure period of a civil suit to prove that large regions of their networks do not work sufficently.

Really? Wow. Thanks for telling me this. Nice to know it's complete rubbish. I work for a telco, and the guys across the dividers from us do live call tracing and mobile location all the time. It takes about 5-10 minutes and is usually accurate to within 200 metres. The neat part about GSM is that as your phone uses timeslots, the delay can be measured between your phone and the tower (like a ping). You then know how far away the phone is from the tower (because radio waves travel at a known speed). You phone is also always in contact with more than one cell station at a time. Add up all three factors (timeslow, delay, and different locations) and the system gives you a street name and approximate number.

Of course, this is all done after a an official document comes through with what circumstances. Usually it's for people threatening suicide. Every now and again it's a kidnapping or something major. It's harsh on these guys when their call trace comes back too late and the news the next day shows that 2 kids were kidnapped by their dad and murdered. True story - give these guys some credit.

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[Yakko]

You most likely don't know your phone system well. There's NEVER a case where the phone company doesn't get your phone number and/or who called you. Billing would be sucktastic if the phone company ever didn't have the called and calling party numbers. They wouldn't know who to bill for the call!

Re:Seems Wrong.. Cell phones work in airplanes...

[JWSmythe]

    Do you believe everything the government feeds you?

    I know someone who tried this recently. They forgot to turn off their cell, and remembered mid-flight. They looked at the phone, and had no signal. Since it hadn't caused any problems so far, they left it on. The didn't have a signal again until they had almost landed (like the last minute or so of the flight).

  If terrorists were in control of an aircraft, would they be letting people call their family? hell no. If you're controlling a situation, you control everything about it. There's no half ass "ok, call mom and tell her you're ok".

Re:Seems Wrong.. Cell phones work in airplanes...

[tricorn]

It is both. Airline operators prohibit operating radio transmitting equipment on board an airplane in flight (FAA requires that any equipment that is going to be used be tested for safe operation on commercial flights), but even private pilots aren't allowed to use cell phones in the air due to FCC regulations.

Adjacent cell towers coordinate frequencies in use, and do handoffs to the next cell as you move from one to the other. In an airplane, you are "adjacent" to many towers at once, even those that are so far apart that they can't coordinate and hand off. Even though YOUR call may end up working, you're probably disconnecting other calls over a wide area as you step on their frequency (and since you're about 5 miles away from the cell you're actually talking to that's directly below you, your signal is still about 50% as strong over a 5 mile radius around that tower).

Re:Yes, "partner." now fuck off, straight boy.

[d723]

Would you refer to your wife as "the woman whose pussy I pump?" "The bitch that sucks my cock?" If so you need to lay off the porn, dude. Not sure where you picked up all that gay stuff, but you've obviously given it some thought or been hitting the gay porn. Usually people leave verbose descriptions of the actual physical methods of their lovemaking out of whatever pronoun reference they use.

The thing is, you don't get to decide what word other people use to describe their relationships. They do. You opinion matter none. If you'd like them to respect your own chosen term and not vomit profanities all over you each time you mention your relationships, then you need to provide others the same courtesy. The only thing that can cause that kind of response is fear. What are you afraid of Mr. Anonymous? Afraid some guy will try and suck your cock or afraid you'll like it?

Oh and by the way Mr. I-feel-so-strongly-about-this-that-i-will-remain-a n-anonymous-coward, Homosexual sex is natural and normal., not to mention fun. Not everybody does it, but ... well you sound like you could use some.

Male big horn sheep live in what are often called "homosexual societies." They bond through genital licking and anal intercourse, which often ends in ejaculation. If a male sheep chooses to not have gay sex, it becomes a social outcast. Ironically, scientists call such straight-laced males "effeminate."

Giraffes have all-male orgies. So do bottlenose dolphins, killer whales, gray whales, and West Indian manatees. Japanese macaques, on the other hand, are ardent lesbians; the females enthusiastically mount each other. Bonobos, one of our closest primate relatives, are similar, except that their lesbian sexual encounters occur every two hours. Male bonobos engage in "penis fencing," which leads, surprisingly enough, to ejaculation. They also give each other genital massages.

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[jaredcat]

That isn't entirely true. I've worked in intercarrier billing for a little while, and I have seen many cases where ANI (Automatic Number ID) is not sent by the originating carrier.

Now when you make a normal phone call from a normal world zone 1 LEC (local exchange carrier) to another world zone 1 LEC or wireless company, your LEC is almost always going to transmit that data. They don't have to do it, but they usually do it. Generally it makes it much easier for the techs and the billing people when things work this way because it lets you determine if a call is interstate/intrastate (different rate tables) or it can help you track down technical problems of all kinds.

However, not every carrier sends this information. In fact, carriers with older or less complicated equipment (think phonecard companies and small international operators) sometimes can't even send ANI if they wanted to. Maybe they don't use SS7 and are using the ANI field to an identify an internal billing code. Maybe they have incompetant switch techs who don't know how to setup the signaling correctly. There are lots of legitimate reasons why a carrier would not send out ANI.

Now for the criminals--- it is VERY EASY to spoof ANI and CLID. Many telecom scams are perpetrated this way. All it takes is for the criminal to be placing calls through a carrier which allows the customer to transmit digital signaling and then sends out whatever the customer sent to the next carrier rather than building ANI from the carrier's own customer database. Virtually all LECs let you do this if you have a T1 and a PBX. Virtually all small VoIP operators let you do this as well, so long as you have the ability to transmit the signaling to them.

So getting back to the point, your carrier isn't neccesarily lying to you when they say you got a call from 'number unavailable'. Its entirely possible for a carrier NOT to get a call without an ANI. With a little research, they may be able to tell you what carrier the call originated from, but thats about it.

Re:No, Technology isn't magic.

[avxo]

Triangulating a mobile phone to within a couple of hundred meters (frequently less than that) does not require police on foot, with three antennas. The cellular system, in order to work and not for any sinister big-brother type reason, has to track the rough relative position of a subscriber within a cell, to account for signal delay propagation.

Just to elaborate a bit about timeslots: The GSM standards require that the phone transmit only in a defined time frame: three time slots after the phone has received the data. This gives the tower a well-defined interval during which to receive the data transmitted and to ensure that transmissions by different phones are separated by at least one guard period.

But as the distance between the tower and the cell increases, the cell phone must transmit earlier and earlier to account for the increase signal propagation delay. This process is called "adaptive frame alignment" and is determined by a parameter known as the "timing advance" parameter. The TA is dynamically updated and takes values between 0 and 63 inclusive. This parameter determines how early, in microseconds, the phone has to begin transmission, to ensure that the signal reaches the tower at the correct time, and roughly locates the phone within a specific radius around the tower.

Combining this with the fact that more than one tower usually sees the phone and the information from those other towers, the GSM system can triangulate the signal to within a couple of hundred meters, easily.