Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

MA Senator Decries OpenDocument Decision

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the no-odf-for-you dept.

An anonymous reader writes to mention a ZDNet article on Massachusetts senator Marc Pacheco's OpenDocument study. The report blasts the decision to switch to the OSS-friendly document format, saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens. From the article: "'The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn). Then he was told to get it done and forget about any obstacles,' Pacheco said. Although OpenDocument is not yet widely used, other government entities, including Belgium, have expressed interest in OpenDocument as a standard as well."

12 of 233 comments (clear)

  1. Apples & Oranges by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Microsoft Office has built-in help for people with disabilities, such as voice synthesizers, special screen readers and enlargers, Winske said. But he said OpenDocument-based products do not yet.
    OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

    You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.

    The real irony is that someone will probably write a plug-in for MS products to use OpenDocument anyway.

    Microsoft's eager to offer plug-ins for nearly any other proprietary file format. It just seems that the second someone tries to give something they worked on away for free, Microsoft starts criticizing it as being too slow for the user.
    'The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn). Then he was told to get it done and forget about any obstacles,'
    And what's wrong with that? Happens all the time. You put a person in a powerful position and they make executive decisions. They are busy so they delegate it to someone else. I'm waiting for the reason that this was a bad move. Do you expect a board to discuss and delegate on every issue down to what file format is used by the government? Do you want the process to require that much time and resource?

    Nobody's crapping bricks when the sewage administrator is mandating standardized units being used on reports for the city's waterways and sewers now, are they? Won't somebody please think about the vertically disabled people that like to report their height in centimeters, not inches so that it's a larger number and they feel taller?

    <sarcasm>My god, the state's IT Division is trying to advise the state government on what file format to adopt. What is this world coming to?</sarcasm>

    After delivering his speech, John Winske shook hands with Steve Ballmer & was seen struggling to drag away a visibly overladened burlap sack with a giant green '$' on the front of it.
    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Apples & Oranges by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.

      Years of using programs like Microsoft Word and other proprietary applications have gotten people used to thinking that applications and document formats have a 1:1 relationship. It's so rare, outside of a few widely-accepted interchange formats (txt, jpg, gif, bmp, etc.) to be able to use a single document format across a number of applications, without the format "belonging" to one particular program, that people can't separate the two anymore.

      People criticize software for things they don't like in the format -- even though many programs today (including OO) can use many different document formats -- and they criticize the format for things they don't like in whatever's perceived to be "its" application.

      People who are pushing Open Standards need to be more clear about the difference between a format and the software that uses it. 'OpenDocument' is a format, OpenOffice.org is just one of the many applications that can use that format.

      That said, the MA politician in the article is a first-class tool, so I wouldn't count on ever educating his type, except through large wads of cash. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's getting some sort of kickback from Redmond at some level, or has a personal grudge against the IT office, or is hoping to make this into some bit of a power play. I doubt very much he gives two squirts of piss about the actual issue; it's just "an issue" to him.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Apples & Oranges by Atmchicago · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are absolutely correct that the Senator is talking about a red herring.

      You can also argue with him, claiming that those who cannot afford the money to purchase either OSX or Windows and a copy of MS Office are effectively 'disabled' and incapable of composing compatible documents.

      --

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    3. Re:Apples & Oranges by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 5, Insightful
      [D]oes OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office?

      Does Microsoft Office (the only application which fully supports the Microsoft Office format) offer the same level of help for people without Microsoft Office on their machine as OpenDoc apps do?? Do you really think this world (or Mass. even) has more "people with disabilities" than it has "people without Microsoft Office"?

      Most people who are not completely blinded by their own addiction to Microsoft will honestly say "no".

      You're living in the here and now. In ten years or so, even you will be disabled when it comes to reading Microsoft Office documents produced in the current version of Microsoft Office unless those documents have been converted to whatever new format Microsoft will be pushing then.

      Ten years ago, your computer was (likely) running Win95 (because Win98 won't be available for another two years yet). Documents produced in 1996 by whatever version of Word Microsoft was pushing back then might still be mostly readable in the current version. But if they aren't, good luck finding a copy of the OS and a copy of the application which created them to use.

      Now think about 20 years ago. 50 years? We're not talking about some school-kid's homework, we're talking about Public Records which belong to the residents of Mass. in 2106 as much as the Mass. Constitution belongs to the residents of the Commonwealth today.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    4. Re:Apples & Oranges by tsm_sf · · Score: 5, Funny

      The point is, does OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office? Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch: Does OpenOffice or any of the other semi-mature non-Microsoft applications have support for disabilities at or better than MS Office? Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".

      MS won't ever support a standard that directs interest away from themselves unless someone holds their feet to the fire. It's not suprising at all, or even particularly "evil". Like any dumb beast, they just need a kick in the nuts every now and then to point them in the right direction.

      Oh, if you're a person w/ disabilities... why the hell are you not using a Mac? Don't make us suffer because of your masochistic tendencies, ok?

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
  2. Help for Disabilities? by neonprimetime · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft Office has built-in help for people with disabilities, such as voice synthesizers, special screen readers and enlargers, Winske said. But he said OpenDocument-based products do not yet.

    Keyword being yet ... but when it does ... it will be standardized ... reusable ... and in the long run more useful than the crap MSFT slapped together.

    1. Re:Help for Disabilities? by ottawanker · · Score: 5, Informative
      .. also isn't the voice synthesizer and special screen reader and enlargers part of Windows, and not part of Microsoft Office? I have those programs installed, as they're part of the 'Accessibility Pack' or whatever?

      Check out the Windows XP Accessibility Resources website:

      Windows XP Accessibility Utilities:

              * Magnifier--a display utility that makes the computer screen more readable by creating a separate window that displays a magnified portion of the screen.
              * Narrator--a text-to-speech utility that reads what is displayed on the screen--the contents of the active window, menu options, or text that has been typed.
              * On-Screen Keyboard--displays a virtual keyboard on the computer screen that allows people to type data by using a pointing device or joystick.
  3. Accessability Is for everyone by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My apologies for copying ideas of another poster I've seen post on this subject before, but here it goes. When it comes to reading computer file formats we are all disabled. No human can easily read a computer file format. That's why formats with actual standards are so important. So that we can all have equal access to the information stored within those files. Sure there may not be screen readers available right now, but if there is a market for them (and there is), then they will come. Especially if these formats come into wide use. Also, these accessibility tools will be much better because they know how to read the format. They don't have to struggle through and hack like crazy, just to make them work. They could even make an entire word processor specifically for the disabled, made to work with the abilities they have. A blind person doesn't need an interface like everyone else does. They need a completely different tool to compose documents than the rest of us. A standard format would make these tools easier to develop.

    Another note. I thought screen readers just read the text on your screen, regardless of what program is displaying them. I guess I was wrong about this, since Accessibility seems to be a big issue.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  4. Some in disability community see value to ODF by peterkorn · · Score: 5, Interesting
    As I note in my blog (shameless plug) http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060629 increasingly folks in the disability community in Massachusetts see real accessibility benefits to this move to ODF; something that hasn't been picked up yet by mainstream media. See the recent Carroll Center blog: http://blog.carrolltech.org/archives/54 and the earlier Carroll Center blog when folks were first becoming aware of ODF accessibility issues in Massachusetts http://blog.carrolltech.org/archives/51. Also the Oakdale Christian Fellowship in Charlotte NC makes similar points to the recent Carroll Center blog (see my writeup at: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20051116).

    As others have noted in this thread, the mainstream media continues to repeat the falsehood that Microsoft is responsible for the accessibility of MS-Office (which is to say, the extent to which Windows assistive technology vendors have special-cased and reverse-engineering MS-Office). David Berlind's interview with Curtis Chong of the National Federation of the Blind make this very clear (see his blog at: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=2163

  5. Governor's office fires back. by AJWM · · Score: 5, Informative
    The report at news.com also has this to say:
    In response, the office of Governor Mitt Romney issued a statement on Tuesday, saying that the executive branch would continue with the standards implementation plan. "Senator Pacheco is wrong on the facts and wrong on the law. We are committed to an open-standards approach that fully takes into account all accessibility, cost and statutory requirements," said Felix Browne, an administration spokesman.


    Pacheo has been on the wrong side of this for a while. I guess he figured it was time for another headline.
    --
    -- Alastair
  6. Disabled Citizens? by deviantphil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens.

    How about poor citizens who can't afford the Microsoft Tax?

  7. You're Missing the Point by nathanh · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Does OpenOffice or any of the other semi-mature non-Microsoft applications have support for disabilities at or better than MS Office? Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".

    You're confusing the document format with one of the many applications that can read/write that format. The state mandate was for Open Document. You're complaining that Open Office - one of 15 applications that can read/write Open Document - is inferior to Microsoft Office.

    Microsoft could quite easily write a plugin to read/write Open Document. Microsoft Office already support dozens of other formats of dubious quality and relevance. Open Document is clearly relevant and IMO of very high quality. Why is Open Document such a problem for Microsoft? I think I know why. Do you?