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VW Raises the Bar for Self-Driving Vehicles

Old Man Kensey writes "According to the UK Daily Mail, VW has produced a prototype Golf (code-named "53 plus 1" in a reference to Herbie the Love Bug) that successfully steers and accelerates itself at speeds up to 150 MPH on tracks designed on the spot without pre-programming. It sounds almost too good to be true given some of the problems CMU's prototype has had over the years, but perhaps VW has learned from and extended CMU's research (and within-an-inch GPS positioning probably helps too)."

24 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Re:GPS? by kripkenstein · · Score: 4, Informative

    "GPS accuracy can be improved further, to about 1 cm (half an inch) over short distances, using techniques such as Differential GPS (DGPS)." - Wikipedia

  2. Research by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is a good illustration of why research funded by a corperation is more likely to achieve results than that of academics. Academics are free to pursue whatever is most interesting as they work, and it is ok to get off on a tangent as long as some papers come out of it. However if you work for a company you need to get results, hence this car. Of course this model doesn't work quite as well for theoretical physics, but well enough for the computer science. I suspect we would have AI already if it could be turned directly into a product.

    1. Re:Research by pedantic+bore · · Score: 4, Informative
      Not exactly... Who do you think funds the academics?

      It's true that academics can pursue riskier, more speculative areas of research. It's cost-effective for them to do so; they've got less overhead and grad students are cheap, and success criteria is different than for businesses -- publish a bunch of well-regarded, widely-cited papers, and you're in good shape. (you never need to earn back the investment money)

      However, academics get their money from businesses and funding agencies who do have their eye on the bottom line. If an academic doesn't work on something that they feel is relevant (or abandons research they're funded to do in order to work on something cooler) then the money dries up really fast.

      I've been on both sides of this (currently funder, formerly fundee) and I can tell you without doubt that academic research is a market, just like everything else.

      --
      Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
  3. Oiled by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Funny
    VW Raises the Bar for Self-Driving Vehicles

    Self-Driving Vehicle promptly hits the bar, gets thoroughly oiled and rolls off into the red light district looking for a "service".

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  4. And this is why I don't feel comfortable by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Interesting
    lettin a car let me drive. The article goes on to state an experience in 1991:

    Everything worked perfectly until Pomerleau got to a bridge. The Humvee swerved dangerously, and he was forced to grab the wheel. It took him weeks of analyzing the data to figure out what had gone wrong: When he was "teaching" the car to drive, he had been on roads with grass alongside them. The computer had determined that this was among the most important factors in staying on the road: Keep the grass at a certain distance and all will be well. When the grass suddenly disappeared, the computer panicked.


    And that bug is probably fixed by now, but the problem is, how do we determine we worked out all the bugs? We can't even do that with Linux/Windows/Anything. The closest we come to that in the OS world is a microkernel with only a few thousands lines of code and controlled input.

    But how do we ever determine a program that learns and is subject to varying, uncontrolled data inputs is bug free? You can't and I wouldn't want to see the first literal blue screen of death when it happens.

    I don't want to sound like a luddite, but the article mentions that planes have been flying autopilot (did they forget to mention landing/taking off is still done by the pilot) since the 1970s. But I believe we'll have flying cars before self-driving* cars because the problem is several hundreds of a magnitude easier in empty 3D space where all you have to do is stay high enough off the ground and avoid collisions via radar/whatnot.

    *The only way is I see anything coming close to a self-driving car is on highways where lanes get marked magnetically and driving problem gets reduce to the car having to stay X feet behind the car in front of it.
    1. Re:And this is why I don't feel comfortable by achesterase · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just for your info, planes have been landing themselves for ages. Autoland is used routinely in very low visibility conditions where it would not otherwise be legal to land the aircraft manually, unless you were using special equipment like a HUGS. If you're interested on learning more, search for Cat III autoland in Google..

    2. Re:And this is why I don't feel comfortable by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps, but I'd quite like a car that I could drive somewhere, press a button and have it drive home, then I can call it and it comes to pick me up (and drives me home if I've been drinking).

  5. Just for race tracks by froh42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have just read about 53+1 the other day (can't rembember where, tough) 53+1 is specialized on slalom courses and can navigate them faster than a human driver. The car first runs the course very slowly scanning it, then it has to pause for half an hour when a special software optimizes steering, braking and acceleration points and afterwards it goes around the course faster than a real driver could. The system is NOT flexible, for example when a human suddenly is on the track on the fast lap it will blissfully ignore the humans existance and accelerate right through the human and create quite a mess. The usage seems to be exactly repeatable driving for car or tyre development. Froh

    1. Re:Just for race tracks by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Funny

      ssh... you're dangerously close to adding facts to this discussion. Stop it! This is slashdot!

  6. Re:Daily Mail by O0o0Oblubb!O0o0O · · Score: 3, Informative

    German news magazine "Der Spiegel" has a pretty high credibility and they carry the same story:

    http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,424288,0 0.html

    Unfortunately, the article does not seem to available in English.

  7. Re:Daily Mail by LordSnooty · · Score: 4, Informative

    You're not familiar with Sunday paper journalism in the UK? Nearly every title will, every week, feature some kind of "exclusive" blue-sky puff-piece about a "new" technology or scientific "breakthrough" which is invariably based on studies or announcements made months ago, or is in fact a highly speculative "what-if?" prediction. If the story contains the sentence, "scientist/engineers predict that in ten years' time...", then you know it's probably not worth reading for ten years.

  8. Re:No signal by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny


    A tunnel?!?! OHhh NOOOOoooooo...!!

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  9. Re:No signal by gjuk · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually - some car-based GPS systems link up to the car's other sensors (accelerometer, speed, steering, parking radar, etc). While they're not accurate for any long distance, they're perfectly good for a short distance (maybe a few hundred metres) and the software in the system can use this info in the temporary absence of a GPS signal.

  10. In case anyone is still stuck.... by reset_button · · Score: 5, Funny
    53 plus 1
    ...the answer is 54.
  11. Re:Daily Mail by jawtheshark · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, in summary (I just read the Spiegel article), the car in question first learns the track based on traffic cones. Actually, the only thing this cars knows are traffic cones. A program then runs on the collected data and calculates the "ideal" path. When the finanlly activate the "racing mode", the car "simply" drives the studied track and that *blindly*. There need not to be any traffic cones, and it will not stop if something unexpected happens (so if a rabbit jumps in it's way, the researches will have rabbit for dinner) It does react a bit on the data from the sensors in the racing mode, but it's more for avoiding small variations in the track like a wet spot.

    The car itself is pretty much a standard Golf GTI 2.0 Turbo (200HP) and the only thing they changed was stronger braking. They use the default sensors to make the program learn. Also, in the Spiegel article, there is not any mention of GPS.

    Oh, and the research isn't intended to make auto-driving cars for you and me. They want to create a way that cars do exactly the same test runs on test-tracks to check the settings of the car. The results would be more reproductible. If anything, this tech is to put test-drivers out of work ;-)

    They also mention that some of the tech was derived from a Touareg that they used in a competition of the US Defense Department in the Nevada desert. However, that one had completely different goals.

    I'm sorry that I didn't translate the whole thing, but it was just too long.

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  12. hmmm by MerrickStar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Does this mean we won't be seeing the "Drivers wanted" slogan anymore?
    This would imply to me that the position has been filled.

  13. Wikipedia is not reliable by mangu · · Score: 5, Informative
    GPS accuracy can be improved further, to about 1 cm (half an inch)


    I can claim to be a "rocket scientist", at least I have designed systems for satellite control and tracking, and I work for an aerospace company.


    You cannot measure a position to within less than a centimeter using GPS. You can design a ranging system that gives you a measurement with enough numbers to represent that precision, but it doesn't mean that you can trust such numbers.


    You cannot use GPS to give you better measurements than the accuracy of the GPS constellation orbit determination, and the satellites' positions vary more or less randomly due to residual atmosphere, solar wind, and solar radiation pressure. The end result is that GPS cannot give any reliable measurement to less than 10 cm, and one meter is closer to the best that one can accomplish in practical situations.


    A more accurate system than GPS is LAGEOS, which has satellites that are much heavier and smaller than the GPS satellites. They are basically brass balls covered with mirrors. Because of that higher density, LAGEOS satellites suffer less perturbation from non-gravitational solar and atmospheric effects. However, the equipment for doing ranging with LAGEOS satellites is not portable, it's meant for geodesy studies, not navigation.


    A good overview of different satellite ranging systems can be found in "Satellite Orbits", by O. Montenbruck and E. Gill, ISBN 3-540-67280-X, and here is a Wikipedia link for the most accurate satellite ranging systems.

    1. Re:Wikipedia is not reliable by Yokaze · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You cannot use GPS to give you better measurements than the accuracy of the GPS constellation orbit determination, and the satellites' positions vary more or less randomly due to residual atmosphere, solar wind, and solar radiation pressure.

      I don't think, that the satellite positions vary randomly in the sense, that they have gaussian variance in a deliberatly short intervall of time. But their positions contain a systematic error, which can be determined via a fixed known position (actually more, but who cares) and thereby be corrected. This, in general, is the principle behind DGPS. The accuracy does not depend as much on the position of the satelites, but the discrepancy between the systematic error between the fixed known position and the unknown one.

      That said, I'm still sceptical concerning the quoted accuracy. Especially for a moving object, like a car.
      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
  14. Comments on Slashdot aren't reliable either... by tugrul · · Score: 4, Informative
    You cannot use GPS to give you better measurements than the accuracy of the GPS constellation orbit determination

    Yes, you can. I just woke up, but I'll see if I can explain.

    In the case of DGPS, the reference station uses its surveyed coordinate to difference the time encoded in the signals it is receiving against the time it would expect given an estimation of where the satellite is. So any error in the satellite's predicted position is lumped in with all the other naturally occuring forms of error.

    In the case of RTK, or other forms of relative carrier phase positioning, the system attempts to determine and track the difference in the number of cycles of the carrier wave of the GPS signal between the base and the satellite and the rover and the satellite. This number multiplied by the length of the carrier wave, 19cm for L1 signals, gives you the length of one side of a triangle between the base station, the rover, and the point between the rover and satellite that is as far from the satellite as the base station is. So, the exact position of the satellite is not as important as the sight line vector the satellite forms against the base line between the base station and rover. And given the great distance of the satellite from the typical base station and rover, jitter in the satellite's position doesn't change that vector much.

    In conclusion, given the advances in relative positioning, limiting factors on GPS positioning today are the accuracy of the survey points, the ability of the electronics to precisely measure the carrier phase/doppler of the GPS signal, the quality of the clock in the GPS unit and the speed/accuracy of the algorithms that determine the carrier cycle count difference.

    1. Re:Comments on Slashdot aren't reliable either... by Physics+Dude · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Right, and do you know what is the order of magnitude of those naturally occurring forms of error? Let's see: ionospheric refraction, considering scintillation activity is in the order of 1.5 meters. Tropospheric refraction is about 2.2 meters. Code multipath is 1.5 meters. Adding these we have an RMS error of 3 meters, even ignoring other factors, like antenna gain and receiver noise temperature.

      And your point is? These types of errors you list (including satelite path deviations) are presisely what DGPS corrects for if the well known GPS is in relatively close proximity to the onboard GPS. In that case, these unknown variabilities will be reasonably well correlated so they will be removed when taking the differential. (ie. satelite orbit changes, ionospheric refraction etc., though unpredictable, will be nearly exaxtly the same for both GPSs so it gets subtracted out). In my work we generally get DGPS accuracies of less than half a meter which is well below your quoted error of 3 meters RMS.

      For use with autonomous vehicles, one can generally do a lot better when the DGPS is augmented with a ground based equivalent of GPS like Terralites (XPS) which can and do routinely give accurate positions in the 1cm range.

    2. Re:Comments on Slashdot aren't reliable either... by daniel422 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd have to agree with you here. We used DGPS years ago with UC Riverside experiments in autonomous vehicles at their CE-CERT facility. I was amazed with how accurate ground based differential GPS systems could get. We'd have an antenna on top of our research facility and a unit in the car. Accuracy in controlling the car was better than half a meter -- and this was about 8 years ago now. Of course, these were pretty low speed tests at the time, but still pretty impressive.
      Civilian ground based DGPS systems seem to be quite accurate in short range experiments (less than a mile from the transmitter site). I couldn't comment on rockets....

  15. 1 inch GPS by thogard · · Score: 4, Informative

    As far as I know that requires a DPGS like system on the track with extra real time feedback to the car.
    So they are cheating if you consider the real world.

    I've been in a car that could drive its self on one very well surveyed road. If it got confused it would beep and assume the human was in control within a second. The internal guidance system alone cost over 1/3 of a million dollars and it used several different GPS systems to cross check the fiber gyro.

    The only way cars are going to take over for driving the mini-van in place of the drive soccer mom is if there is a serious attempt to clean up the road markings. This means no more optional parking on the side as a road will either be a parking spot or a lane. Signs will need to be redone and cleaned up. The white lines must be far more precise than they are now and more places will need to deal with the yellow centerline (which has now been dropped in the EU even though its the cheapest road safety device ever)

    Things have gone a long way. 2 decades ago I had a system that would indicate that a steering adjustment needed to be done. A decade ago there was Miata convertible that could maintain road position and deal with deer. This year we have a VW that can avoid traffic cones. Maybe in a decade we can see a car that can avoid the phone talking, breakfast eating SUV driver.

  16. Re:You call that a translation? by Millenniumman · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well, when I saw that the German -> English translation was almost readable, I decided to run it through English -> Arabic/Chinese/Jananese/Russian/Italian/French -> English.

    --
    Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
  17. It solves a lot of problems, actually by Old+Man+Kensey · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Actually, you're wrong. Computer systems working properly (which is the big sticking point) can drive the car in a more efficient manner that will minimize wear. You know how teenagers love to gun it coming out of a light? Hello engine wear. Or aggressive drivers trying to jump forward into a spot that closes up so they have to slam on the brakes -- they're wasting gas, wearing out their brakes, wearing out engine parts... to say nothing of the time they go to panic-stop and suddenly nothing happens because a brake line sprung a leak from overuse.

    The holy grail is cars that talk to each other to get around more efficiently yet. If the traffic up ahead narrows from four lanes to two because of construction, and car computers can talk to each other and say "Hey, you're two miles back but get ready for this", then orderly traffic flow can be maintained as the cars merge into the remaining lanes and decelerate. This in turn saves gas, etc.

    Hell, think how much money you'd save if you car just automatically avoided potholes if it could. Tires, struts, shocks, suspension, all those would last much longer. Look at the figures on how much money it costs drivers annually in a city like Baltimore that's infested with chuckholed roads.

    --
    -- Old Man Kensey