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Unmaking Motorola's Q

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the under-the-hood dept.

conq writes "BusinessWeek has a breakdown of Motorola's Q Phone, looking at the cost of each of its components. From the article: 'It costs Motorola about $158 to build the phone. That includes components and assembly but excludes other expenses such as marketing, distribution, and licensing fees to Microsoft, which makes the phone's Windows Mobile operating system.' By comparaison, the BlackBerry 8700, only costs $123 according to the article. The difference between the two, the BlackBerry 'doesn't play video or music, and unlike the Q, it doesn't have a camera.'"

23 of 144 comments (clear)

  1. 158$ to make a cell phone? by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My god....mon dieu!! etc... 158$ must turn into what? 500$ retail? Have fun losing that phone.

    Of course it'd be nice if cell companies both offered this monstrocity of a money pit and the el-cheapo phones that companies like Moto make as well. You know, that whole "free market" thingy...

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    1. Re:158$ to make a cell phone? by JanneM · · Score: 4, Informative

      You know, that whole "free market" thingy...

      It is a free market. But the customers are the carriers, not the consumers that end up using the phones. If the US had a mobile phone market where you could use the same handset with any provider perhaps you would start seeing phones offered to please the end-user. As it is, what they're selling and you're buying is a provider phone plan; the phone is just the necessary piece of gear to use the plan.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  2. Flawed Analysis? by 1zenerdiode · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm always a little shocked when I see things like this.

    It's quite difficult to gauge the true cost of a consumer device when you don't know:
    - Component purchase volumes and associated discounts
    - Overhead (R&D, administrative costs)
    - IP licensing - both for the finished good and associated components (patent fees, etc.)
    - Who manufactured certain key components (the LCD is mentioned)
    - Locus of manufacture (which country?)
    - Test and rework costs (what defect rates are expected of raw components and finished assemblies, what quality standard?)

    1. Re:Flawed Analysis? by 1zenerdiode · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The rub is the range of variation in the output (cost per unit) that can occur with relatively minimal changes in inputs (extra $1 per baseband processor, for instance) can severely hinder the analysis. I'm also suspicious because the estimate is reported to such a high degree of precision (down to the dollar) without any discussion of uncertainty. It implies a degree of accuracy that is not possible without proprietary information. I would have expected, even with a very good estimate, to see a range "Q could reasonably be expected to be produced in the range of $140-160 using scale assumptions corresponding to other cellular devices" or something along those lines. I checked out the website of the company in question, and they list an impressive number of large electronics mfr's - I'm left wondering if the mfr's participate in cost estimation efforts in the same manner as salary surveys where they are allowing their data to be aggregated anonymously to improve the accuracy of the estimates?

  3. Features or Cost? by foxylad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Am I alone in not being attracted by all these bells and whistles phones have these days? I want a phone to be a phone - I already have a digital camera to take pictures, and a music player to play music. Why try to cram all these features into a mobile phone, which just complicates the user interface and adds cost?

    And don't get me started on email on phones - several of our managers have Blackberries, and despite their bigger keypads, it is still painfully obvious a message was created on one. Plus they tend to be sent at 10:30pm...

    We have a new joke going around the office - have you heard about the new crime wave of Blackberry muggings? Crazed people accost you, force their Blackberry on you, and scarper.

    --
    Do as you would be done to.
    1. Re:Features or Cost? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Informative

      While we're at it, let's also stop trying to force all these PCs to do so much. All I really need my PC for is word processing, the user interface for getting into the word processor is terrible, the UI cluttered with all these extra programs and settings. Don't even get me started on how much all of these features drive up the hardware costs. What I want is a machine that just puts words onto paper! When will they get this through their heads?
      [/sarcasm]

      Am I the only one who hates carrying 5 computers in my pocket because each one refuses to share its processor cycles with another application?

      Is it expensive now? Yes.
      Will it come down in price? Yes.
      Can an interface be both flexible and efficient? Yes.
      Can the current designs be greatly improved? Yes.

    2. Re:Features or Cost? by east+coast · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Am I alone in not being attracted by all these bells and whistles phones have these days? I want a phone to be a phone - I already have a digital camera to take pictures, and a music player to play music. Why try to cram all these features into a mobile phone, which just complicates the user interface and adds cost?

      Perhaps you are. Ultimately, why bitch about it? They make plain old cell phones for people like you. It's not like these gadgets are being thrust on you. As for the rest; somehow I feel OK having a phone that has internet access, a camera and music playing abilities. It makes it so that if I need these things they're all right here in a simple small package without having to carry at least three other devices. Maybe you feel good about carrying this crap around or you think it makes you look "geek" in some fashion but I'd rather not have to deal with leaving hundreds of dollars worth of hardware (actually thousands if you count my laptop for internet access, and I still need the cell in that case!) in my car or worse taking this stuff around in a mall or store where it can be lost or I can have security bothering me over why I feel the need to carry a 300 dollar camera around randomly.

      We have a new joke going around the office - have you heard about the new crime wave of Blackberry muggings? Crazed people accost you, force their Blackberry on you, and scarper.

      Wow, that's uh... yeah... funny... i guess. Actually it marks a problem with how people think in relation to technology. OK, so you don't want the latest and greatest, you don't want the camera, the email, the text messages. Fine, don't buy into it. Too many people I know bitch and moan about being able to be contacted on their cell phones. Turn them the fuck off or don't buy one in the first place. That's my solution. Blackberry is normally an evil tool of the office but I see more and more people using them for personal reasons. This doesn't mean that you need to own one nor should you feel compelled to. Don't act like technology is forcing itself into your home, if that's the way you feel about the technology that you own perhaps you should seek professional help.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    3. Re:Features or Cost? by KokorHekkus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Am I alone in not being attracted by all these bells and whistles phones have these days? I want a phone to be a phone - I already have a digital camera to take pictures, and a music player to play music. Why try to cram all these features into a mobile phone, which just complicates the user interface and adds cost?

      No, you're not alone but you're relativly marginal in low margin segment.

      Compare with computers or cars that only really basic features, like a computer with no frills at all or low end asian econo-box cars. They don't sell that well since they don't cost THAT much less. With a low-end product you need to sell a lot to recoupe your investment since per item return is low along with the fact that it's easier for other companies to jump on the bandwagon should it start rolling. And then you would have every Tom, Dick and Harry eating at the table you set.

      And them, of course cellphone operators only offer subsidizes phones that are likely to increase the use of their services. I guess the way to go for people like you is cash cards and buy your own basic phone. You're just not profitable as a group to, in the eyes of the operators, to justify a subsidizes phone.

  4. US Phone Market is so irrelevent by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 3, Informative

    RIM Blackberry is the only phone available in the US that offers a fraction of the communications functionality Europeans take for granted. Even then, Blackberry is just a promise given the Reseller Plan's which throttle what little useful functionality is in the device to add-on services.

    Camera, MP3, video objectify the space into lust-have consumerism which drives a cultish demand producing absolutely no redeeming downpayment on the future.

    1. Re:US Phone Market is so irrelevent by digitac · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually the driving force behind Blackberry features has traditionally been the government's need for security. The government has put strict requirements on the device to be sure it's secure. That's something I can appriciate.
      There are server-side policies for EVERYTHING. A rep once told a group of us that if we could find any way to get data off a Blackberry that couldn't be stopped/restricted by a policy on the server he'd buy us lunch and get it fixed. In an enterprise environment the admin can restrict everything.
      We can (and do) set password policies. Length, age, complexity, number of attempts can all be configured. There's even a distress feature so the device notifies an admin if the user is forced to unlock it (you change your password by one character). The admin could then send a wipe command to the device which completely wipes all data.
      It even has AES encrypted storage. If you turn that on, even if you unsolder the memory chip you can't read the data (though you could theoretically proceed to brute-force it).
      The lack of cameras on all Blackberries (is a God-send!) is due to the restrictions placed on cameras in senstive areas. If one Blackberry had a camera they may all be banned from those locations (rumor has it there may be one coming though, I hope not).
      No MP3s because it's a business first device. I personally don't agree with this one. I wish it would play WAV file voicemail (promised, never delivered). It doesn't have removable storage or even enough for more than a couple songs, but this relates back to the security issue. They can't be used to copy documents from a computer and it's near impossible to remove sensitive data from the device.
      It's not perfect, but at least it has a reason.

      Digitac

  5. The main difference between them... by digitac · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...is that the Blackberry WORKS! Those Q's are nice to look at but terrible to use. We bought 6 at work when they first came out, 4 have been returned in favor of the Blackberry. The Blackberry does less, but it's reliable. Here's the mini-review I give to everyone at work who asks about them:

    The Good:
    -The screen is nice, bright, easy to read indoors, and a nice size in general.
    -The general form factor. I like thin devices and the Q is that, it doesn't seem to have unneeded bulk.
    -The network. Some like it, some hate it, but few will argue that Verizon's EVDO network is fast where you can get it. Allows for streaming a Slingbox nicely.

    The Bad:
    -Most of the problems can in some way be related back to Windows Mobile SMARTPHONE Edition. Had they gone with the full PocketPC software (and required touchscreen) the interface would be less awkward to move around in and you could do simple things like, oh I don't know, switch back to that task in the background?
    -The keyboard...sucks. Most similar devices (mostly referring to Blackberries, Palm Treo's, and a couple others) have standardized portions of the key layout. For instance the backspace key is next to the L key so it's easy to get to since you typo a lot on small keyboards. On the Q it's a flat button, unlike the letters, up near the D-Pad and easy to miss (actually had someone ask me where it was after they had been using it for a week). The Enter key is where the backspace key should be (you can imagine what problems THAT causes), the only shift key is on the right side of the keyboard near the bottom (unlike the others). And in general the keyboard just doesn't have a good "feel" to it.
    -The scroll-wheel, they should have left it off completely. The Smartphone interface wasn't designed for it. I believe they only put it on their to lure the Blackberry users, which is fine if it actually behaved like the Blackberry's, but it doesn't. You can't use it as the primary navigation tool like the Blackberry (you can only scroll vertically), and it is slow to respond to any input. Even the little bump they put around it to supposedly protect it from accidental activation hinders its usefulness.
    -Stability, or lack there-of, may relate back to the Windows Smartphone OS, but we have other Smartphones that are MUCH, MUCH more stable. The Q will get hung up on the simplest tasks. If it's not freezing completely, it has dropped the network and won't reconnect until you reboot.
    -No push-mail. They didn't ship the Q with the AKU2 service pack so it can't use Exchange Mobility push mail. That would be fine, because we have a Goodlink server, but Goodlink doesn't run well on the device due to the Smartphone interface. For one thing, we require a password, but on Smartphones Goodlink limits passwords to just numbers which require the use of the ALT key on the Q.
    -It just seems slow. Nothing on the device seems to launch, run or close fast. In fact I often find myself setting it down while waiting for it to do something.
    -Battery life...painful. My Blackberry will usually last about 4 days if only used for e-mail, 2-3 if using the cell phone. Motorola Q: 13 hours, which is coincidentally the exact amount of time one user's relationship with the device lasted.
    -Charging. It has a mini-USB plug so you should be able to charge it anywhere, right? Wrong. If you want to charge it from a computer you have to have the POS ActiveSync software installed. If you want to charge it from the wall, you'd better have brought your Motorola USB charger because 70% of the mini-USB chargers I have tried won't work. Some will power the device but not charge the battery and some won't even register. It's not the amount of power either. I have one that provides up to 1100mA while the Motorola one provides 800mA, but it won't work. I haven't figured out why yet.
    Cheap build quality. While we haven't damaged any, they just don't feel very durable. I've dropped, tossed, kicked and stepped on my Blackberry. I dare not set the Q down on a table hard, it feels l

    1. Re:The main difference between them... by brogdon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just to play Devil's Advocate, I have a Q and love it. It plays my episodes of Futurama without skipping and all of my various formats of music with the Core Pocket Media Player. It gets my email for me, streams internet radio stations, and has a very capable web browser (though I hope the minimo people get a compatible build out for the Q soon). I got a mini-SD card for it that holds 2GB of stuff for about $50.

      I, personally, have no issue with battery life other than when I play movies and so forth all day. However, I expect that to drain the battery much faster than normal phone usage drains the average cell phone anyway.

      I also don't know why you said the Q doesn't have push Email services. Mine pushes my gmail out to me just fine, and you can also set pocket outlook to poll your email accounts automatically every few minutes if you'd rather do it that way.

      Also, I don't have a problem with my unit locking up at all. I often have pocket IE, Outlook, and the media player all going at once, and they seem to get along just fine.

      As far as I'm concerned, I got phone with a 400kb internet connection, push email, web browsing, internet streaming, video and music playback, plus whatever other little software I want to install for the cost of a $200 handset and a $50 card. So far it's working out to be a prety good deal.

      BTW, check out Qusers.comfor more people with Q's. They can tell you the good (and bad) of their experience.

      --


      This tagline is umop apisdn.
    2. Re:The main difference between them... by wadetemp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      - The Enter key is where an Enter key is on a computer, and the "Backspace" button (a frequently used button) and the "Back" button. Seems sane to me. "Backspace" is an "accident" button, and it's in prime position to hit with the edge of your thumb when you make a mistake. The "Enter" key is one you know you're going to hit before you get to the end of the paragraph, and not that frequently used, so its location is also appropriate. I've tried a Treo 650 and found that to be OK, but I was accustomed to my Q already.

      - Yeah, I don't like the scrollwheel. I can't get my hand in position to use it and find the D-pad and menu-letter shortcuts to be much faster and 1-hand-friendly.

      - I've run it for 4 weeks. No stability issues or crashes. I sync with Exchange and POP frequently, use web search, calendar, make phone calls, etc... fairly normal usage.

      - No AKU2, no problem. Every 15-minutes is plenty for me. There is an SMS-based solution to this anyway, supposedly, although I'm not what that requires on the server. It certainly requires free text messages.

      - My battery lasts for 2-3 days with ~1 hour of talk time and 15-minute email syncing. I've heard MSN Messenger can run-away when you don't have a data connection... maybe that was it?

      - Regarding charging off a computer... why?... you still need to pack a cable anyway. I simply don't use ActiveSync, because I can sync over the air, so I'm not plugging in for that either.

      - Regarding build quality, I sort of agree, but it's mainly the battery cover that's at fault. I've read putting some sticky padding between it and the battery will solidify it.

      - You never really mention how "most of these problems relate back to Smartphone edition." I switch to tasks in the background by hitting Home and clicking right once (for the most recent app) and clicking the "do it" button. That seems reasonable. I can probably do that faster than the time it takes to whip out the stylus. What do these other problems have to do with Smartphone vs. PocketPC?

    3. Re:The main difference between them... by digitac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm glad you like your Q, I really am. I'd just like to make a couple of observations about your comments.

      You won't get any argument from me that the Q does more, much more, than the Blackberry. Movies and audio playback are missing from the Blackberry; games and web browsing are better on the Q. Our users have reported complaints about most of those though. One user said it would play several MP3s then stop, another said the web browser was "hit or miss" (sorry, no specifics). From your remark about minimo, I'll assume "very capable web browser" means "leaves much to be desired". I find it to be better than the Blackberry's, bigger than other [smart]phones, but much harder to use than it's PocketPC counterpart.

      Removable storage is very nice (even necessary) for audio and video files. I don't remember the exact on-board storage, but it's not enough to do anything useful with alone.

      Battery life is no doubt affected by usage scenarios. In our environment the primary function of any handheld is push e-mail. This does have a detrimental effect on battery life, but it is still a fair comparison to Blackberries and Treos on which we also run push e-mail.

      I am curious as to what you are using to get e-mail pushed from GMail. To my knowledge, GMail does not support, nor does any 3rd party service implement, push e-mail in any form (from GMail). I suspect it is pull e-mail on a regular, even if frequent, schedule. For some that is perfectly acceptable, but our users demand the instant push e-mail (yes, 60 seconds is too long for some of them). Pocket Outlook supports, as you mention, pull e-mail or SMS-notification e-mail from Exchange (a sudo push system). The push feature I was referring to is the recently released AKU2 update for Windows Mobile 5 devices that supports true push e-mail from Microsoft Exchange 2003 servers.

      I would honestly like to know how you switch between Pocket IE, Outlook and the Media Player when all are running. I would love to hear that there is a hidden keystroke somewhere that I'm missing, but to my knowledge the only way to get to a running app is to run it again from the Start menu. Not all programs behave well this way.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are using this in a purely personal environment, not an enterprise environment, right? In this way, I believe it is best compared to the Sidekick, instead of the Blackberry. I cannot comment on it's overall usefulness as a consumer device as we evaluated them for an enterprise environment. As the "Blackberry-killer" that Verizon has been desperately trying to convince us it is, it falls short. Very short.

      Digitac

  6. Image? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it's interesting with all of the power of the web that some news sites, generally seems to be the sites of more traditional media, neglect to furnish a basic image of the device or subject in question. I'm interested in a photo just because I've never heard of or seen this thing.

    Google Image Link

  7. huh? by zoloback · · Score: 2, Funny

    So A phone that sends email... my cable company gives me phone service, my phone company gives me TV and Internet, My Email portal sends sms alerts to my phone, which can take pictures, my digital camera records videos and my video camera takes pictures...
    Makes me wonder what does my wife do when I'm not home...

    --
    The future will take care of itself.. It has in the past
  8. With open standards you do have choices. by Art+Popp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Granted, the customers are the carriers, but the carriers put in a considerable effort to please the customers with their phone choices.

    The problems that limit choice are the combinatorial effect of:
            Most users not being geeks.
            Each power-user handset having a considerable cost in training Customer Care folk.
            Many geeks want their toys for the cost of the parts, never for the MSRP (the cheapskate factor).

    So the carriers pick limited set of power-phones and the rest "as cool as they can get their hands on." What outsells the marvelous powerful sophisticated Treo650 by an enormous margin? The Razr.

    This will be hard for the /. crowd to believe but the carriers push their phone offerings toward the geeky side of the curve and away from the center of mass for their customers' level of tech savvy. Really they do. For the noble, pure and altruistic purpose of marketing more expensive techy services like MMS and GPRS/EDGE/UMTS etc.

    If you pick from among carriers that use open standards you do have choices. My favorite carrier doesn't sell the SonyEricsson 910, the Nokia 6680 or the Treo650, but I was able to slip my SIM into each of them and give them a good college try. This, because GSM is an open standard. Fighting my own cheapskate daemons, I went out to PalmOne and purchased the Unlocked (unsubsidized) Treo650 and haven't ever regretted it.

    1. Re:With open standards you do have choices. by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the Netherlands, any phone you buy with a plan may be sim-locked, but after a year the provider is obligated to remove the lock. And hell, my MDA Vario was unlocked about 3 hours after I got it, and this was because I got it at work.

      This idea of mobile carriers providing tech-support for phones is just nutzoid, as is the idea of carrier-monopoly on a phone type. Carriers focus on services, and other stores can focus on selling phones (with or without subscription).

  9. No comparison... by puppetman · · Score: 2, Informative

    I had (lost it at the dump) audiovox smart phone with Windows Mobile. I also carry a Blackberry on a rotating basis for support at work.

    My Audiovox phone had a about 2 days before it needed a recharge, doing pretty much nothing (the screen was in sleep-mode). The Blackberry goes a week (and it's constantly downloading email from our Nagios server, and replying to acknowledge issues, etc), all with the screen on.

    The Blackberry did everything with a scroll-wheel that was also a button. The windows-mobile needed a stylus to scroll, etc.

    For me, the Blackberry won hands down: the screen was nice, the performance was great, and the keyboard is very usable with a bit of practice. And this is a 2 year old model, that has been dropped in the toilet (and survived) and is dropped probably once a week.

    Rim had done an amazing job.

  10. Re:The Q, hmmm... by SchwarzeReiter · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I was thinking of James Bond's Q- overly complicated and doesn't work.

    Ever seen a James Bond movie?
  11. How to switch to other apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is actually easy. Pick a home screen layout that has the most-recently-used applications displayed across the top. So to switch from IE to media player, I hit HOME, right on D-pad (more than once if it wasn't the last app used), then the action button.

    In most apps this isn't necessary, as the BACK button brigns you to the last app you were using before the current one. But Pocket IE has fucked that up and it tries to load the previous web page instead.

    So, I find this EASIER than PocketPC. There you have to hit START, then scroll down to the MRU which is in the middle of the menu. Or you can use a third party app to do so.

    BTW I do use coporate email (we have Exchange at work) and I have it set to pull every 10 minutes. I agree that not having AKU2 sucks - how can Motorola sell a brand new messaging device (suypposedly a Blackberry killer) without it? Someone messed up badly. Although I find a lot of your review to be nitpicky (I prefer the Smartphone controls a LOT to the PocketPC controls, since I hate using a stupid stylus - IT'S A PHONE) but of course that's probably due to you being familiar with Blackberry and PocketPC. I switched from PocketPC to Smartphone a year ago (Audiovox SMT5600) and I don't regret it (which surprised me).

    That said, I don't think you'll be really happy until the push email solution is out and you've gotten both yourself and your users more used to the Smartphone. I also think it's garbage that I can't read doc attachments, or powerpoints which I get all the time.

    It's definitely fine for me the way it is, but it took me a while to learn the way it works - there are LOTs of little tricks about how you can use the Back button, Home key, # and * keys, even the power button differently if you hold them down that make the device a real pleasure to use. For example, hit the green call button when you turn the phone on - BAM I'm looking at the last few calls I made and who called me, just one more click to return the call or to see what time they called. Or I can press right on the D-pad to switch to their home number/txt/email to contact them in a different place. Puts the Call History on every phone I've ever used to shame.

    Plus the phone is a sexy beast :) Of course i'm in love with it.

  12. Re:Microsoft License by ThePhilips · · Score: 4, Interesting

    +10

    Hardware cost of the mobile phone is nothing compared to all the licensed buzz-words: GSM, UMTS, TDMA, CDMA, etc. That all stuff has to be coded and tested of course: in both hardware and software. Licensing costs for such hardware/software easily run into numbers with 6 (six) and more zeros at the end.

    And embedded OSs they use - like Windows Mobile, Symbian, Palm OS - all can easily run into $30-200 per phone. Or you think they started thinking of Linux just for fun?

    P.S. Reminds me why GSM won over technically superior CDMA in USA. The only "problem" with CDMA was stupid licensing and patent regime established by Qualcomm and Co (bunch of old companies afraid to be left aside of market.) 3GPP learned the lesson and UMTS had won again over US crowd - mostly due to friendly licensing. More or less all 3G wireless networks deployed around the world are derivatives of european UMTS. Licensing is no simple question to ignore.

    P.P.S. Long time ago, one chinese CE manufacterer speculated that to produce $200 Palm PDA they need only about $40. So the numbers in article aren't really surprising.

    --
    All hope abandon ye who enter here.
  13. Agreed. Q = P.O.S. by Snap+E+Tom · · Score: 3, Informative

    Has anyone ever used this thing longer than it takes to write some shallow review?

    I have. I do mobile device development. I think, and *all* of my coworkers will agree with me, the Q sucks.

    First off, the buttons are too small if you have fingers larger than a four year old's. The BlackBerry 8700 is pretty good, and the Palm with it's raised bubbly buttons, provide great control and feedback.

    Second, they just did *stupid* stuff to the interface. Stuff that makes me think the thing is under-powered. For example, if you have a long list of items, the Q will paginate the list instead of making one long list. That is obnoxious with a capital O. It just constantly breaks down elements into small chunks, adding unnecessary clicks and scrolls.

    The core problem, IMHO, is that Windows Mobile is not designed to work without a touch screen. However, in their attempts to make a BlackBerry-like clone, they've forced the OS to operate without a point-and-click interface. And they failed miserably.