Fantasy Trumps Sci-Fi For MMOs

simoniker writes "Mythic's Mark Jacobs, whose MMO company is being acquired by EA, has commented in detail on why fantasy MMOs sell better as part of an extended interview. He suggests of MMOs: 'Fantasy is easier than sci-fi. Want to know why? It's simple. A gun. What's a gun? A gun is impersonal. A gun can shoot somebody from across the room... Part of the challenge we found with Imperator is how do you make a combat system based on lasers and energy weapons, compelling to an RPG audience. The other challenge with a sci-fi game is that fantasy is very well defined in our minds ... I also think there's something I can't explain, which is that people are more willing to play a fantasy game that's not as good online, than they are willing to play a sci-fi game that's not as good online. And I'm not sure why that is.' Suggestions?"

Comments

Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with it

[Yvan256]

Maybe people don't want to play in sci-fi games because they're tired of all the technology in their real life? Computer problems, phones, pagers, emails, IMs, ads on TV and radio... it all adds up without realizing it. People play games to take a break from real life. Do you think they'll play in a game with even more technology, or a game with stuff they'll never have, such as magic, monsters, etc?

I'm not so sure the guns are the issue.

[nathan s]

I don't know offhand what IS, but I don't think it's the "impersonal" factor of guns being able to shoot across a room - witness the Counterstrike and Quake and countless other multiplayer FPS games that have been massively successful. I'd say there is some other factor at work here.

I'm thinking offhand, but most of the time your classic fantasy stories have been about parties of heroes (witness Tolkien) whereas classic scifi has tended to be much more individualist (even with the Matrix, the main character so strongly overshadowed the others that it didn't really feel very much like a group effort). (Maybe Star Wars is an exception to this, and the Star Wars games have tended to be fairly successful, although some people call it space-based fantasy instead of science fiction anyway.)

I can't really think of any compelling party-leaning science fiction stories at the moment. And this translates out to the scifi games I've tried, from single player stuff to MUDs. They've all felt very "lonely." In fantasy, you have clearly defined classes with separate roles and you tend to need a group of them to get anywhere, which is begging for a multiplayer setting.

Keep in mind that I'm only on my first cup of coffee, though.

Re:I'm not so sure the guns are the issue.

[montyzooooma]

"I can't really think of any compelling party-leaning science fiction stories at the moment. "

There's loads (think Star Wars fiction, Warhammer 40K fiction etc.) just like there are loads of fantasy books with lone protagonists (Kane, Elric, Conan - none of them exclusively solo but often).

Guns are an issue in RPGs, as I see it.

[iainl]

The problem is not Guns in Multiplayer - as you say, look at all those FPS games. The problem, as I see it, is that Gunfights don't map as well to a series of prebuilt animations in turn-based combat.

Everyone wants their MMO to basically be Everquest with a different tileset, and the camera doesn't suit the kind of long-range fighting that gun battles suggest. If I point at an enemy and click to shoot at it, I want to shoot at it, not have a bunch of stat monkeys decide whether my character is good enough to do so.

So the setup practically demands an FPS control instead of an RPG one, and then your nearest city descends into Lag Hell. Oops.

Re:Guns are an issue in RPGs, as I see it.

[rtb61]

It really goes a bit further than that, in a sci fi enviroment the empasis is on star ships interacting rather than individuals interacting (so strategy rather than role playing). Women also tend to prefer the fantasy enviroment (daddies little princess) to the sci fi enviroment, this in turns means any attached males will have to follow their partners into that enviroment or they will soon become unattached for spending to much time paying attention to their game and not to she who must be obeyed.

Also the sci fi ones to date have been pretty luck lustre and/or have been mishandled, developing undesirable reputations. The fantansy ones have also tended to have pretty much a zero learning curve allowing the more unskilled game players easy access (in fact they can just buy in and all they have to do is learn how to spell their name and password).

Re:Other weapons

[drsquare]

Fantasy's a more romantic setting. It's a simpler, nicer looking world, no electricity, no power stations, no concrete jungles, no stock markets, no traffic.

We're surrounded by so much technology nowadays that immersing yourself for eight hours in even more technology in a sci-fi Mmorp seems completely overbearing, whereas a technology-free world is like an escape.

Humanoid

[phorm]

For the mostpart the "other races" are still humanoid though, but fantasy has plenty of things beyond that such as dragons, beholders, and various other tentacle monsters. There are plenty of identifiable aliens as well, those from the Alien movie (bipedal/quadripedal), predators, klingons, kilrathi (sp?), Kzinti, Posleen, etc etc

Yeah, somebody might not immediately identify with a Posleen (basically centaur-structured lizards), but the badasses from the Alien series are pretty identifiable (ever played AvP), and the Kzinti/Kilrathi are pretty much fuzzy people.

Thinking about it, one of the previous comments definately hits near the mark. People will identify with being an orc, hill-giant, or hobbit because they're common fantasy characaters. People could also identify with being a Klingon, Geiger-Alien, Predator, Kzinti, etc.... but that's not going to happen because when you include them all you're probably going to have your ass sued into the next starsystem by the copyright owners of Star Trek, Aliens, Predator, and the Larry Niven books. I suppose you could make similar characters and/or use parody (a-la SpaceQuest), but look at what happen with City of Heroes and the lawsuits wherein players could make characters similar to movie entities.

Anothe reason why current Intellectual Property laws suck ass, while using a Klingon named "Worf" in your game might be dubious, you shouldn't be attacked for having something klingon-like, hell it's a compliment to the creators.

Re:hey now...

[despisethesun]

Actually, a medieval Japan or China based MMORPG would be a nice change of pace if we have to keep MMOs in the past. Far eastern mythology is at least as interesting as European mythology.

Some might call it semantics....

[CFTM]

Star Wars is not science fiction it's fantasy. Just because you use swords does not make you fantasy and just because you have a gun does not make you science fiction; personally I'm partial to Phillip K. Dick's definition which I am only able to paraphrase at the moment so I doubt I'll be nearly as succient nor as accurate.

'The Shifting Reality of Phillip K. Dick' contain many different short stories and pieces of speeches he gave throughout his life; in one of those speeches Dick espouses his definition of science fiction which goes something like this: A science fiction story takes place in a world that is not our world, but could be. In other words, the story is grounded in some sort of reality that we know. Star Wars has no such grounding, unless someone knows where I can find me some Ewoks to enslave.

I have only played SWG, and the star wars franchise is the only one mentioned that I have knowledge of so I'll limit my critique to that but clearly it's just shitty fantasy. Star Wars has been shitty fantasy for a long time and has never been science fiction. It's childish and nonsensical... ...disagree all you want but I think I'll stick with PKD on this one.

PS: If you think I've just commited an act that merits hari kari, stand up from your desk walk outside and breath some fresh air...

Because Sci-Fi MMO has too many standards

[jftitan]

While I am not a fan of Fantasy MMOs, it is mainly because of the monthly dues. Plus my personality really isn't into Fantasy, its with Sci-Fi space sims.

Lately I have been playing Darkstar One, which to me is a re-incarnation of WC: Privateer, but with a better looking ship, and weapons. I have been into this game the moment I found the demo, and have been playing non-stop even though at this point all I am doing in the game is playing the randomly generated 'quickie cash' missions. (I'm improving my Saitek X45 flyin g skills)

I've gotten into EVE, and I really love the vast universe it brings to me. I could get lost into such a vast sci-fi mmo, but one things holds me back from getting into the 'monthly pay for' phase of game play. Its the interaction with my piloting of my space(craft)ship.

Sci-Fi MMOs have to abide by higher gameplay standards than that of Fantasy MMOs. Fantasy has to create scenic worlds, on a planet. While Sci-Fi, needs to create planets, within galaxies, to which even our own knowledge of the universe is incomplete so everything must be created theroy. While I will settle for EVE mixed with Freelance, and Privateer qualities, physics and game play are very hard to incorporate into a MMO. How about the alien races. I'm pretty sure, that a Sci-Fi MMO could just involve humans the way EVE has done. The storyline is impresive, create 6 human races with entirely different cultures. Attempt to create a universe with peace. Give the player a ship, and tell him to survive in space. DONE.

Just make the space physics, economy, social interaction (go ahead and create space stations with NPCs, hell make planets with NPCs too... Go as far as allowing people to goto 10 or more places on one planet) But as long as I can combat like a pilot against uneven odds of space pirates/bounty hunters/alien races, then fly home on the last leg of my spaceship to the nearest solar system to fix my ship, and fix my next job, then... and ONLY THEN will I be happy.

Here is what I would want in a Sci-Fi MMO;

1. Vast Universe... (EVE's universe is huge... I know it would take me years to goto each solar system, only to go back to one, and its been changed entirely. Thats how reality works too)

2. Human/Alien Races... (I have no problem dealing with some foreign alien, Rule #1 if it shoots at me, I shoot back. nuff said)

3. Economy... (EVE, excells, heck I could possibly find enough friends to help me manage a vast company in EVE, but hell, I need better friends to help me manage my OWN finances. Make the economy complex, but also allow for some form of automation, that will pay the ingame bills, every time you goto a planet/space station)

4. Gameplay Interaction... (This one is what EVE lacks. Put in some flight controls, and first person POV so I can duke it out with space pirates. If my ship exploids then... shits, I'm a bad pilot. Restart at the nearist planet/spacestation, and lose the mission.)

5. Gameplay cont... (As with Dying, respawning is not a bad idea for Sci-Fi.. heck we don't explain WHY when I die in Guild Wars, I end up alive at the nearest gateway, why not in a sci-fi sim as well) With Darkstar One, when I die at the lasers of a pirate, I just reload my most recently autosaved game, and retry.

6. graphics... (Things can't get worse from todays standards of MMO graphics, so at this point it can only get more detailed, or stay the same. EVE has done well with the online MMO for Sci-fi graphics)

7. Customizability of... (Characters, Ok, so Fantasy allows you to customize how your character looks, Sci-Fi can do the same thing with characters. You start off as a person/alien anyways, so let us customize five or more races of human or alien.)

8. Customizability of... (Spaceships, well for sci-fi why not customize your spaceship. Give users 10 or more types of spaceships they can start from, and then allow us to customize the wings, engines, shields, paint jobs, computers, etc. I know we'll upgrad

I think it is the guns, and it is the movies.

[SmallFurryCreature]

Think of the classic sword fights you see in the movies, now think of the classic gunfight eh fights you see in the movies. Notice a difference? The sword fights, last! They take time. The hero spots the opponent, closes, parries, thrusts, dodges and finally makes the kill.

The gunfight is far faster, spot, shoot, kill.

While in real life a hit with a broadsword is probably as much an instant kill as a bullet in the head, movies have made us believe that sword fights last minutes while gunfights are over in a matter of seconds.

Now take a look at the various MMORPG's games. Because of the general lack of AI or anything approaching tactics let alone strategy most fights are about wearing down the enemies hitpoints slowly in a prolonged duel. No instant kills allowed. It just doesn't fit in the gameplay.

SWG offcourse had guns and believe me that after years of movies and books and other star wars games it came as something of a shock to find that stormtroopers do not die instantly if you hit them with a blaster shot. Neither two, nor three, nor five. In fact during a period before the dreaded CU/NGE debacle you had roving bands of stormies that had some very big brothers that could whoop your ass. But apperently not spot you sniping their platoon down one by one. Well when I say sniping I mean firing away at their heads with concealed shot for about five to ten minutes a piece.

Not that the melee combat was any better but at least that seems acceptable. You can parry my sword blows but how exactly do you stop an energy bolt straight between the eyes? It gets Jagged Alliance kind of silly where you shoot somebody with a machine gun at point blank range, only somehow manage to hit them once, in the head and they still fight with 94% of their health gone in the next round. WTF? Any notion of suspense of disbelief is gone. You are in a spreadsheet with pretty picture mate. Not fighting the evil empire. Or rebel scum.

The same problems occurs ofcourse in KOTOR with the damn lightsabers. You get this cool weapon that can slice through anything except it seems clothes, swords and any piece of armour. That wasn't the deal!

Guns don't work in current MMORPG gameplay. For instant kills to work you need more enemies, they need to be more intelligent (how many MMORPG's are there were the enemy is even capable of seeking cover?) and you need far better code for instance collesion detection to avoid people targetting and shooting through walls. Already a pain with swordfights it could make gunfights with instant kill even more frustating.

Oh and if you add instant kill on the enemies, do you add it on the player? A modern war based MMORPG would suck for the point guy. Spend an hour getting ready to get to the quest area only to be ambushed and get a bullet in face and be forced to respawn.

Your argument of aloneness doesn't ring true to me. Star Trek is very much a group off people, especially the original series, while say the entire TES series of games (Oblivion) is very very lonely.

People accept a resistance to fire. They do not accept a resistance to hot lead. MMORPG structure at the moment just can't do gunfights. Hell, single games can barely do it. FEAR and that old Lucasarts cowboy game are about the only games I remember where there was movie style gunfights going on.