Xcode Update Gives Objective-C Garbage Collection

William Henderson writes "That's right, if you haven't read it for yourself yet, Objective-C '2.0' now supports garbage collection. I foresee a great, huge, gigantic debate about to ensue, and a lot of java-heads sparking 'I told you so'. Why not start it here on slashdot?"

Comments

Here's my contribution to the debate.

[mccalli]

Fantastic.

I really do feel that manual memory management in most apps is now redundant. i fully accept its need in some cases an indeed I've advocated 'regressing' an app at work, which was ported from C to Java, back into C again to use manual memory management for performance. But that app's an exception - sub-millisecond performance is required. How many day to day apps need that?

I can feel myself waiting a few months, then ordering an updated Objective C coding book to pick this language up now.

Cheers,
Ian

Technical details needed!

[Anonymous Coward]

We developers will need far more technical details before we can even consider using this functionality in our applications.

What garbage collection technique is used here? How does it differ from the Boehm GC-based technique offered by the GCC Objective-C compiler?

Are any guarantees given with regards to the performance of the collector? Does it suffer from many of the problems that plagued the Java GC?

What sort of modifications do we have to make in order to take advantage of this support?

Re:uh, neat....

[jfengel]

It isn't even a question of how good a programmer you are. It's a question of how good a programmer everybody on the team is. And "team" includes every library you use.

When memory is passed across the boundary from one developer to another, you need some kind of mechanism to track who is going to free that memory, and under what circumstances.

Garbage-collected languages make that contract fairly clear. (But not infinitely clear; there are still ways to accidentally pin objects in memory even in a GC language).

In C we got used to putting in comments saying, "I'm passing you back a static structure, so I'm not re-entrant" or "This thing is malloc'ed so free it when you're done" or "You have to pass in a reference to that object and I'll fill it in". As long as discipline is followed the program works brilliantly (no GC overhead) but if any developer anywhere on the project misreads any single one of those comments, you're completely and totally doomed.

There is still software to be cranked out by one guy who can keep the entire thing in his head, but software requirements for most things are too big for just one guy. Even the uberest of uber-hackers is limited by the dumbest guy on his team, especialyl when that dumbest guy (even if he's pretty damn smart) nulls out a memory location that wasn't finished yet.

Your knowledge of GC is 10 years out of date

[jbellis]

Modern GC is *faster* than hand-coded free calls in 90% of situations.

"A major reason for this is that the garbage collector allows the runtime system to amortize allocation and deallocation operations in a potentially advantageous fashion." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_collection_(c omputer_science)

--
Carnage Blender : Meet interesting people. Kill them.

NOOOOOOO #@$#$@

[pestilence669]

Objective C has one of the most elegant reference counting implementations on the planet. Virtually no thinking at all is required to manage memory. Cyclical relationships, which shouldn't exist in decent code, are its only limitation. It's also very fast. Anyone who argues that memory management in Objective C is difficult, should have their head examined.

Garbage collection is a step backward, IMO, but every language seems to be moving in this direction. I really do believe that resource awareness is crucial to efficient programming. Garbage collection encourages lazy programming habits, which I've seen in quite a few Java developers. Bad habits, once bred, are hard to get rid of.

Now, instead of profiling memory for leaks, you can profile the garbage collector, which I predict will be just as much of a headache as tracking down a memory leak. In the end, little work is saved, at least from my experience debugging other developers' Java applications. I won't know for sure until I play with XCode 3.

Re:NOOOOOOO #@$#$@

[m874t232]

You're missing the point of garbage collection. Garbage collection isn't there to save your effort. In fact, garbage collection does not save you effort at all. The purpose of garbage collection is to make the language safe and isolate errors, something that no other storage management scheme can achieve.

Both manual storage management and garbage collection each require a lot of experience to use correctly. Your problem is likely that you underestimate both how much work it took to become proficient at manual storage management/reference counting, and how much work it would take you to become proficient in a garbage collected environment.

Re:NOOOOOOO #@$#$@

[grammar fascist]

Garbage collection is a step backward, IMO, but every language seems to be moving in this direction. I really do believe that resource awareness is crucial to efficient programming. Garbage collection encourages lazy programming habits, which I've seen in quite a few Java developers. Bad habits, once bred, are hard to get rid of.

You're missing the point, which is to make it easier to model a language mathematically. The easier the model is to reason with, the fewer errors you'll have. It frees your mind from petty concerns that arise from having an overly-complex language model.

We'll go back to Lisp to elucidate this, which has always cleaned up after itself. Lisp has a very strict underlying mathematical model. Consider math for a moment. Once you define something, is it ever undefined? If you've stated a truth, is it ever not true?

No. Likewise, in languages with garbage collection, once you create something, it exists, theoretically, forever. In the theoretical language model, memory is infinite. The fact that something cleans up stuff that isn't referenced because we happen to be using state machines rather than true Turing machines and need the memory back is merely a necessity of living in the real world.

There's a beauty and an elegance about "garbage collection" (i.e. the more-mathematical infinite memory model) that you're totally missing out on.

Mathematically speaking, mutable variables are a bad habit. As you say, bad habits, once bred, are hard to get rid of. Can you break this one? You don't have to, just think about it. The point is, I'm challenging you to expand your mind a bit and understand that what you hold dear isn't all there is in the world of programming.

Cyclical relationships, which shouldn't exist in decent code...

Where did this piece of utter tripe come from? Haven't you ever created a circularly-linked list? Must everything in memory be a tree?

Re:Yay! More Bloated Crappy Code

[Maury Markowitz]

Practically every program I run under XP has a memory leak. As a result, quitting out of any of then leads to 15-20 seconds (yes, really) of disk griding while the VM dies. And this is on *quitting*. Does anyone else find it the least ironic that it takes longer to quit a program than start it?

I love listening to people complain about GC. Of course *they* are super-programmers that don't need any of this stuff, because their code never has *any* problems in it. But here I am with all these leaky programs. They leak memory all over the place and don't care. Why? Because I don't *need* to care about memory, everyone has 1GB anyway.