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Goldfish Smarter Than Dolphins
flergum writes "While dolphins may have big brains, laboratory rats and goldfish can outwit them. It appears that the large brains are a function of their environment rather than intelligence. From the article: 'Dolphins have a superabundance of glia and very few neurons... The dolphin's brain is not made for information processing it is designed to counter the thermal challenges of being a mammal in water.' I guess this means that the Navy will start recruiting and training goldfish for those mine search and destroy missions."
I am reminded of the counter argument which noted that the enlarged part observed in Einstein's brain was due to the extra glia cells needed to support the higher activity of the same number of neurons.
I've also dived with many varieties of fish, but our interaction with dolphins off Tiputa Pass and Trousers Point (you can find both easily on Google) was qualitatively different from any with fish.
It basically sounds like Japanese propaganda to me. Might be time to make that donation to Sea Shepherd.
-- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
You can count the number of neurons vs glia all day long, but at the end of the day dolphins seem to have MUCH better results than goldfish. Just because a certain feature normally has a certain result doesn't mean you can rewrite reality when it doesn't!
If the word "intelligence" was defined as a certain ratio of neurons to glia, he'd have a point. Of course, "intelligence" wouldn't matter so much, because it would only matter in certain situations. Much like "clock speed".
I also don't see how the "jumping out of the bowl/over the net" even deserves a mention...unless we now have a way of interviewing dolphins and goldfish.
1. Dolphins have a cognitive sense of self, as shown in their ability to recognize that they are seeing themselves in mirrors. This is an ability only found in dolphins and higher primates (including humans). This is related to their extremely complex social structures, which implies high intelligence. And this is just one area in which dolphins seem to show high intelligence.
2. Glia are no longer considered 'noncomputational' by neuroscientists. Recent research seems to show that glia, and not just neurons, may perform computational tasks. This is highly controversial at present, but we are far from being able to say that just because an animal has lots of glia that that does not indicate a potential for high brain functions.
Heir Of The Mess: Why do highly instinctive creatures need memory to survive?
1 6/ants-051117.htmlCBC: Empty stomach, visual memory guides ants to food
Because environmental conditions that are unique to each generation of animal cannot be solved by instinct.
Heir Of The Mess: Ants probably don't have much memory, but their programming enables them to function effectively, as well as enabling the group to act as a whole.
Ants need good memory to find their way back home from food. No, not all ants simply follow a chemical trail.
"Biologist Thomas Collett of the University of Sussex in England and his colleagues trained wood ants to walk along a wall to test if the insects also use visual clues.
"Like honeybees, ants stick to familiar routes but are flexible in choosing between routes.
"When ants were placed in a Y-shaped maze with a walls on each side, unfed ants also learned to choose the food path."
http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2005/11/
Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
Dolphins get trapped in nets because they can't detect them, not because they're too stupid to know what to do. Aside from the obvious fact, as someone else has already pointed out, that a goldfish that jumps out of it's bowl and dies isn't nessearily very smart, there are could also be complex psychological factors at play as to why dolphins might not attempt to escape.
Dolphins are one of the few creatures that play games, such as playing tag with a peice of seaweed, or blowing bubble rings. This type of behaviour is often an indicator of high intelligence. To say that a Dolphin isn't much smarter than a Goldfish is an insult to both Dolphins and any human with half a brain to realise this article is a crock.
Goldfish jump out of water to escape predators - probably when you've got a pike snapping at your tail, trying to learn to breath real quick seems like a good option. When they jump out of tanks, it's because they are highly stressed, and that usually is down to the environment you keep them in. I've left the lid off my tank all day (accidentally) and they haven't succumbed to the Marco Polo instinct.
[FUCK BETA]
Just to add on. I remember watching this in the Discovery Channel. Most people assumed that the dolphins are intelligent and friendly such that when boats sail in the ocean, they swim alongside the boat or even in front of the boat just to mingle with their human friends. However, this was not the *real* reason. Apparently, they noticed that there are a bunch of smaller, baby dolphins swimming in the opposite direction away from the boat, while those that mingle with the humans are the adult dolphins. This can be seen that the adults are distracting the humans while their youngs can swim off to a safer place. Such altruistic behaviour is hard to find in the aquatic world.
w00t
Yes. That's called "classical conditioning". There's another type of conditioning, slightly more complicated but which many animals are recognised to learn, called "operant conditioning", in which the subject learns to do a behavior (perhaps in response to outside conditions) to improve their situation (for example, a dog that learns going to the back door and scratching will get it let outside).
:)
The big question in animal intelligence is, "Are any animals other than humans capable of more than operant conditioning?" Interestingly enough, among the best scorers, possibly better than the non-human primates, is Alex, an African Grey parrot. Alex can understand and accurately (80-90%) answer questions like "How many blue trucks" (in a set of mixed toys) without prior practice of a particular question, combining his understanding of the question "How many", the color "blue", and the object "truck". He can use numbers reasonably well on fixed quantities, but has trouble counting events. He also knows the concept of "zero". Still, some consider this just to be complex operant conditioning. BTW, I've read their methodology, and it seems quite sound. The person who determines what Alex says, for example, is unaware of what he's being asked)
One big criticism of primate studies, as well, is that most primates either don't form languages in the wild, or form very simple languages. Deaf human children whose parents never teach them sign language will actually make up sign languages and do meta-discussion (conversing about their language using their language). Parrots will make up languages (wild parrot populations even tend to have regional dialects, while different areas have different "language families", with loanwords, just like in human linguistics), but their invented languages tend to be simpler than what they can be taught. Without rigid training, parrots will often display what one may consider "clever" conditioning (such as, if a person doesn't respond to their requests for attention, making the sound of a phone ringing to draw a person into the room), but still conditioning. Also, both in primates and parrots, there's relatively little meta-conversation; it's mostly requests, things with immediate purposes. Even young human children tend to converse about things that are not for a specific purpose frequently.
Complicating studies of intelligence that rely on language is that it's not the only measure of intelligence. For example, corvines (crows, ravens, jays) are more adept toolmakers than psitticines (parrots) and even most primates. They both teach their children how to make/use tools and invent them on their own. Yet, they don't do nearly as well in language tests as psitticines. Are they more or less intelligent?
Anyways, my main point is: this is a complex topic that scholars get into heated debates over, so lets not expect a resolution here.
Did you really name your son "Robert');DROP TABLE Students;--"?
Just to clear things up, for the record:
:)
"Lesser women" is a contradiction in terms in this context: I'm a man.
I can only take credit for being willing to stick with Andy after his stroke. It's a long and ugly story, but following an argument with his custodial parent several years ago, they won't let me see him. To avoid making the story even longer and uglier and dragging the rest of the family into it, I've chosen not to fight it. The "up" side of his memory loss is that he doesn't realize that I haven't been 'round to see him in a long time.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/