lskovlund writes "The ScummVM developers have received notice that their use of PayPal for donations is in violation of PayPal's AUP. According to a forum post, the AUP bans 'Game enhancers (which enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software).'"
More true than you'd know, actually. Using the google suite of checkout (which, afaik, can be used for donations) and adsense can completely replace HTML for these people. Heck, they're even getting more bang for the donation buck if they use the google service.
PayPal needs to realize that they're no longer the only service avaiable - instead of instituting a boycott based on their personal morality, they're simply driving people to a competing service.
I would think that this also opens up an entirely new can of worms - although I'm sure that paypal has the right to do whatever the hell they want short of taking all your cash, if they keep making moves like this, THEY may end up liable for what their service is used for. They can't really have it both ways - either they're a common, undescriminating service, or they're suddenly accountable for everyone.
Hey google is good, ive made my first dollar since July. But i think i can check $25 minimum.
Re:Quick
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Google is no saint either. They would not accept the trashmail service dodgeit.com in their AdSense network.
I'm pretty excited about this because I had previously applied for Google AdSense twice, and was rejected both times. No reason was given. I guess maybe Google has a glut of ultra-targetted email inventory available thanks to their new Google Mail service.
"although I'm sure that paypal has the right to do whatever the hell they want short of taking all your cash"
Actually, Paypal can take all your cash too. I was going to use them for my[shameless plug] locals-only dating site but upon seeing how freakin' limiting they are and how quickly/easily they can deem a site to be "adult content" no matter how G-rated it actually is, I went with other options, especially since I was considering branching out into more adult-oriented content eventually. Google wasn't one of them since at the time they hadn't decided to allow dating sites and may not have at this time.
I would think that this also opens up an entirely new can of worms - although I'm sure that paypal has the right to do whatever the hell they want short of taking all your cash, if they keep making moves like this, THEY may end up liable for what their service is used for. They can't really have it both ways - either they're a common, undescriminating service, or they're suddenly accountable for everyone. </Blockquote>
Actually there are a lot of people claiming they do just that (take your cash) and thier TOS seems to imply it as well. Just google for paypal sucks
Using the google suite of checkout (which, afaik, can be used for donations) and adsense can completely replace HTML for these people. Heck, they're even getting more bang for the donation buck if they use the google service.
...as long as the project's in the US. And everyone who wants to donate's in the US, too.
Now, once Google gets this rolled out over a load more countries, it might be useful. But currently, if someone only accepts Google as a method of paying for something, I can't pay because I'm not in the US. It doesn't make sense to use Google as your primary method of payment if you're a worldwide operation.
-- Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Re:Quick
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Just to add my "me too", I'll never use PayPal to pay anyone.
Actually, I've managed to avoid any such "service" by sending donations directly or buying purchases directly. I can deal with Theo De Raadt directly or "buy" a Linux distribution from the distribution provider. If Newegg, etc. ever switched to PayPal I'm sure someone else will come along for me to use. A holding company makes sense for something like e-bay, where it is a commercial transaction, but not otherwise.
"Backup copies"
by
unfunk
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· Score: 4, Informative
well, ScummVM certainly doesn't allow me to play my "backup version" of Day of the Tentacle - the copy protection quiz is there in full effect:(
interesting... my legit talkie version doesn't have a copy protection quiz... could be because it came packaged with a graphics card... (picked up from a garage sale w/o the card...)
-- Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
The cdrom version didn't have the copy protection. Only the floppy one.
-- No sig
Re:"Backup copies"
by
fuzzix
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· Score: 4, Informative
well, ScummVM certainly doesn't allow me to play my "backup version" of Day of the Tentacle - the copy protection quiz is there in full effect:(
ScummVM is also distributed with Broken Sword I & II these days. It must be the easiest way to run these games on modern Windows systems. Games such as Beneath a Steel Sky and Flight of the Amazon Queen have been released as freeware specifically to show off the capabilities of ScummVM and rekindle interest in these classic point-and-click adventures.
I'd consider that "official endorsment" from the original creators of these games. It's not like the situation with Nintendo, who have spoken out against emulation as bad and evil and wrong and causes cancer - I assume this is the attitude which gave rise to Paypal's policy. ScummVM is a useful project with industry acceptance and the backing of the companies whose software it enables. It might behoove the original authors of the games to petition Paypal about their policy in this case - I've bought several LucasArts games to play on ScummVM and I reckon others have done the same. If ScummVM didn't exist it might not be so easy to run these games on my platform of choice and I wouldn't have bothered.
Try leaving the answer blank. ScummVM disables copy protection for SOME games I think (it might only be one or two non-LucasArts ones where the game devs gave the OK, I forget).
Re:"Backup copies"
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I guess this was because, back in the day, CD-ROMs were pretty much impossible to copy. There wasn't even any media you could easily back it up to.
I tried Goblins on an older version of ScummVM and it had copy protection. In later versions it was gone. Either I did something by accident or they disabled it.
They ban game enhancement devices that "enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software". Obviously that is only a problem if those could not be trivially done without the software. I'm fairly sure it was possible to play backup copies without ScummVM, so ScummVM is not enabling the users.
It also does not qualify as a game enhancement device because it is a game component, not an enhancement device. It is a replacment for a shipped component, but it is still a component. If the parent's post is correct then it is even a semi-official component. The only sane reason for paypal to ban game enhancement devices is to avoid the possibility of being sued by a game maker. In this case, that is not going to happen.
It is also clear that this was not the type of device that Paypal was thinking about when they wrote that. They were almost certanly thinking about things for consoles that in addition to cheating could be used more or less like a mod chip. That is not the case here.
-- Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
I thought some LucasArts CD-ROM games did have those copy protection quizzes. I believe Sam and Max had it. However, in their "Game Collection" packaging (several games in one big box) copy protection was removed. It may have been because they didn't give manuals in those collections (thus no way to answer the quiz).
Ditto Monkey Island & MI2, still presented the copy protection, but any answer gets you through. I still regret ever parting with my Amiga and copy of Zool, it came with a code-wheel for copy protection. But you try telling kids of today that...
So switch to another service
by
Colin+Smith
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Nochex, worldpay or whatever.
-- Deleted
Re:So switch to another service
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stunt_penguin
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· Score: 1
Actually I heard that they're starting to accept cash in the post........ please send your donations to.......
*inserts own address*
Thanks guys!
-- When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
Too many people (myself included) will be hesitant to establish an account with a lesser-known or unknown service. It would work for the wonderful folks who are determined to make the donation, but those fine developers will still see a drop in donation income compared to using the PayPal button.
It's frightening to consider that one currency services company has enough influence to make or break someone who depends on e-pay income. Perhaps eGold would be a viable alternative; it doesn't have the user base that PayPal has, but it's one of the more likely to hit critical mass -- especially if people who use it would recommend it to family and friends.
IMO, privacy concerns dictate that e-pay services ought to be item-agnostic. If consumers show this industry that they're willing to tolerate item inspection & transaction interference, then we'll eventually see coercive marketing tactics a-la "brand encouragement" / "brand discouragement" on our credit cards (you may buy Glenfiddich with your Chaize Weesa Card, but not Glenlivet...) Zoikes!
Well, perhaps the real issue here is that the developers should consider changing their product name from ScamVM to something more neutral. It's almost like naming your product Ponzi2U or Rape4Free or WareZ-R-Us.
-- Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
The local ILEC's business office here used to prominently display warnings about 900 numbers, and the kind ladies there will still sometimes thoughtfully install toll-blocking without your even asking.:-) Still, those comfy new air-conditioned offices were paid for in no small measure by phone and webcam, er, "sex".
This is basic suitology, though, folks. Suits do not, contrary to popular belief, actually give a rat's ass about money, as long as their job is not affected. They are whipped dogs to begin with. What they care about is SECURITY. Sony or somebody made noises, probably about something else entirely, edicts got issued from on high, and the pissants in the trenches apply them without discernment. No way are they going to stick their head on the chopping block, even a non-existent one, and take the fall for a judgement call that MIGHT, even if only hypothetically, get PayPal, er E-bay, sued.
The best thing is to switch to e-gold or some other actual online exchange system akin to real money. Unless you know someone higher up at Ebay with some cojones, which unfortunately is not likely-I mean, Ebay is still pretty cool and all, but you could see the handwriting on the wall years ago when they jumped through the hoops for Giuliani et al. and banned firearms sales. The bureaucracy is firmly entrenched there. The SEC and FedGov require it.
Re:Why ??
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Oh what a clever troll. Or more likely you read everything too fast and didn't notice it was S-C-U-M-M and not S-C-A-M.
Well, that's just common sense: When you offer En1arg3 y0ur p3n1s n0w kind of a deal, such misspellings are to be expected.
Oh, and Ponzi sounds much better when it's Pwn-Z!
All I am saying one should think better before selecting names like SCUMM (for a game emulator) and YoungGrapePics (for a horticultural appreciation society)
-- Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Re:Why ??
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
SCUMM = Script Creation Utility for Manic Mansion SCUMMVM = Script Creation Utility for Manic Mansion Virtual Machine
Their growth barely shows they're in the right spot. It shows nothing over their wasting of the precious ressource they are running on. Online payment is a gold bar. They have the incredible talent to make it silver. Hopefully it's a big bar.
Well part of they operate apears to be to lock down outgoing $$ from acounts (but usually allowing incoming$$) for almost any reason and collecting the interest for many months or longer and sometimes the $$ itself.
I'm not claiming this from personal experience mind you, just repeating the gestalt from having read a few of the anti- paypal sites such as paypalsucks.
It's possible all these sites are bogus as are the couple of news articles I've seen.
And definately some of the 'victims' are idiots ("I didn't ship what was paid for for a few months and the idiot buyer complained so paypal gave them back thier $$ the same day I finally did ship it"). However some of the reported reasons for freezing acounts for months on end are such as having once sold something to someone who later didn't ship something he sold to someone else over a year later.
That's probably just another reason why Visa dwarfs AMEX's annual sales volume. IIRC, 70% of bankcard transactions in the US are Visa, 15% are MasterCard, and 5% are AMEX. Can't find a reference offhand, but I'm pretty sure that's about right.
Business sense only applies to companies that have to compete. Once you have a monopoly, you can do all sorts of things that should drive consumers away, but can't because they have nowhere else to go.
--
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Re:Why ??
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Basically, you are wrong, and fuck you for having such a douche bag name.
Boycott PayPal!
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0, Insightful
That PayPal enforce some arbitrary set of rules and close accounts is not news (not for several years).
That they didn't confiscate the funds for once (?) maybe is...
I'm sure there is something clever
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Interesting
...about alienating technolically savvy people, but for the life of me I can't think what it would be. I think the tipping point is not far off where Ebay is no longer relevent, and when it goes down so will PayPal.
I've about had it with PayPal
by
MarkusQ
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· Score: 5, Interesting
I've about had it with PayPal. They want to have it both ways--they want to be the blameless intermediary who can not be held responsible for what their customers do (in essence, a bank), yet they want to meddle in every transaction, and pass judgment on issues that are none of their business just because they hold the money.
With a credit card company, at least they have the argument that--until you pay them back--it's their money on the line.
Note that no laws are being broken, and so far as I can see no one even complained. This is as bad as a bank deciding that they didn't want to cash valid checks for some people because "we don't like your kind around here."
--MarkusQ
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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Jeff+DeMaagd
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· Score: 4, Interesting
With a credit card company, at least they have the argument that--until you pay them back--it's their money on the line.
Sorry, I really don't believe credit card companies don't work that way. They just take the money. The impressions one might get on the "Internet" gives the impression that credit card companies are these angels and PayPal are demons, but the only difference is that CC companies are regulated, otherwise they would be worse than Paypal.
If you are a merchant and there is a dispute, they can and will effectively remove money from your checking account and then they might be nice enough tell you they did it afterwards. It doesn't matter to them if you shipped a big item after you got an authorization, they can revoke the authorization anyway, even if you had the best intentions. This happened to my parents. Thankfully the buyer was honest and said that the transaction was legitimate, so they got their money.
Also, if they authorize a transaction and it turns out to be fraudulent on the part of the buyer where the merchant acts in good faith to verify the card. The credit card companies will still just take the money from the merchant. If you don't have the money, they can just sue you. I had a friend who basically had the CC companies basically sue him out of business because of one large transaction that went bad.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Enough is enough!
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Oh, you mean like Wells Fargo charging $5 to cash a check DRAWN ON WELLS FARGO if you don't have a Wells Fargo account?
Now I know what Wells Fargo means by their ad campaign "The Next Stage..."
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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King_TJ
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Personally, I think it reduces the credibility and trustworthiness of any service that claims to provide "alternatives to cash", yet places restrictions on who funds can be transferred to or from. Imagine if your phone company took it upon themselves to block incoming or outgoing phone calls to certain phone numbers based on information they obtained about the owners of the lines! Would you still stay with that phone service?
I became aware of yet another evil little thing about PayPal recently. I used to bank with a local bank, along with having a secondary checking account with Netbank. I finally decided it wasn't doing me any good having 2 checking accounts, and consolidated everything with Netbank. (Unlike my local bank, they pay interest on my free checking, and their online billpay seems to get bills paid faster than my local bank ever did through their online equivalent.) After I did this though, PayPal reverted my user status to "unverified". I was told I needed to verify myself by linking PayPal with a valid checking account again (since it used to be linked to the local bank acct. I cancelled).
I tried to enter my Netbank info, but it was rejected! Upon further investigation, I found out that Netbank is one of only a few banks that refuse to allow PayPal to pull out funds on demand without the permission of the bank account owner first. So it seems PayPal's "verification" procedure is just a thinly veiled scheme to ensure they always have a way to get ahold of money from the user, in case they feel a need to do so. (Notice I can't become "verified" by providing any of my credit card information - even though there's no logical reason that would be any less "proof" that I am who I say I am than giving them a valid checking account. This is because PayPal can't just grab funds from one of your charge cards, or else you could just reverse the charges.)
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
by
MartinB
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· Score: 2, Informative
the only difference is that CC companies are regulated
If it walks like a duck, the FSA (rightly) wants to regulate it like a duck.
--
The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
by
asuffield
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· Score: 1
Also, if they authorize a transaction and it turns out to be fraudulent on the part of the buyer where the merchant acts in good faith to verify the card. The credit card companies will still just take the money from the merchant.
The real problem here is that the "good faith verification", which the credit card companies encourage everybody to use, is a load of crap that accomplishes nothing. The courts rightly observe that it doesn't prove a damn thing and therefore, with no actual evidence of a transaction, rule that it didn't take place.
The credit card companies are providing a crappy service with no proper verification and people are letting them, because they think it's better to do business while being screwed by the credit companies, than to not do business at all. The courts are happy to accept the combination of a till record, a security camera showing the buyer in the store, and the shop attendant on the witness stand, as proving that the transaction took place. They are not amused by the idea that your knowing the buyer's credit card number and expiry date constitutes proof of anything, because it doesn't.
This kind of stupid is going to continue happening until somebody builds a credit card system with actual working authentication for internet transactions. It would not be technically challenging to create; the "chip and pin" system is already most of the way there. The only problems are political/financial in nature. I don't believe that the credit card companies want to do it; the current system works fine from their perspective.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Their money??? A credit card company only has that money digitally. Not real. So they gladly lend you fake, digital money in order for you to pay interest over that. The higher the interest, the better. Blend this with tactics to get your interest rate higher and voila, profit. Also a pure fraud, scam similar to banks. The public needs to know how this works. Do society a pleasure and get yourself a debit card or value load card instead we don't need to be in any more debt than we currently are. Cut your credit cards. Learn about the FRS. YOU can make a difference.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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Raenex
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· Score: 1
Ah, so that explains why I couldn't become verified with Paypal via Netbank. Glad you posted.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
by
atomicstrawberry
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· Score: 1
This is as bad as a bank deciding that they didn't want to cash valid checks for some people because "we don't like your kind around here."
It's more like a bank closing someone's check account and confiscating all the money they have in there. When Paypal suspend an account, they basically sieze all the money within and most of the time you never get it back.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
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wertarbyte
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· Score: 1
This is because PayPal can't just grab funds from one of your charge cards, or else you could just reverse the charges.)
So you cannot reject an transaction that pulled money from your bank account? I am not used to those strange checkings and savings account stuff, but this surprises me. Here in germany, you can object to any "Lastschrift" within 6 weeks, leading to a rollback of the transaction.
-- Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
Re:I've about had it with PayPal
by
King_TJ
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· Score: 1
I'm not an expert on the subject or anything... but I believe the usual procedure here in the U.S. is, anyone can pull money from a checking account if they have the bank's routing number and your account number. If you wish to protest a withdrawl, you can do so by filling out formal paperwork at one of your bank branches, claiming the transaction was fraudulent or the result of a clerical error.
Then the bank will do an investigation, and *may* undo the transaction, depending on their findings.
I'm guessing PayPal doesn't like Netbank anymore, because they tried pulling funds from Netbank checking accounts before to fix negative PayPal balances, and PayPal users filed complaints with Netbank. Then, Netbank deemed PayPal as fraudulently pulling said funds because they're not really an FDIC insured financial institution and couldn't show any proof that the customer gave them written permission to withdraw funds electronically.
In most cases, I guess other banks have allowed these types of withdrawls to go through, rejecting customers' challenges to them.
who cares?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Funny
They're scumm anyway.
Other stuff that's against the AUP
by
tomhudson
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· Score: 5, Interesting
If feeBay wants to be consistent (ha - fat chance), they would have to ban a lot more stuff:
"Game enhancers (which enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software).'"
They'd have to ban the sale of all new and used laptops, desktops, and game consoles - people use these all the time to play backups.
BTW, "the play of import software" - so imported software is a no-no, but domestic software is okay?
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
by
mwvdlee
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· Score: 2, Interesting
...like the blatent illegal copies of my commercial software. The pages explicitely mention my companies name, product and version included in their blurbs. I've followed the standard eBay instructions, mailing (via their complaint form) the ID's of the ads and registering with their VeRO program. And they didn't even bother to contact me! I have done these steps a number of times in the past and never have they contacted me, even though I included an unfiltered e-mail address.
Currently I'm having (completely separate) problems with PayPal too; my credit card has been charged to some Paypal account for a substantial sum, even though I have never used Paypal in my life. The CC company had no problems understanding a simple phone call; they blocked the card and are investigating the records, yet PayPal don't understand this simple story even though I explained it to them twice, with much more detail than I provide here.
As far as I know, they're both the same company and they both don't care about doing honest business at all.
-- Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
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Jeff+DeMaagd
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· Score: 1
Don't be cocky. You know what they mean when they say that.
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Believe it or not, the "you know what I meant" defense doesn't hold much water anymore. And if a company decides to arbitrarily enforce it's policy, then it doesn't really have one.
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
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tomhudson
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· Score: 1
"What they meant" is only relevant if you're a psychic. I can only go by what is written down. A judge would also tend to rule that a specific writing is more relevant than some vague "what we really meant." Ask SCO, who's latest "what we really mean" got bumped by the judge.
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
by
tomhudson
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· Score: 1
"As far as I know, they're both the same company and they both don't care about doing honest business at all."
Ebay bought paypal years ago, so you are right. Regulators in quite a few states are very unhappy with paypal and ebay, and have, under the threat of regulating their operations if they don't cooperate, entered into "voluntary consent agreements". You might want to check with your local attorney general's office - they probably have someone who is working the ebay/paypal file.
Hope this helps.
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
by
AbRASiON
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· Score: 1
What ebay needs to ban is those dipshits in hong kong who list an item at a very low price - then they have medium priced shipping, so you think "wow, it's not one of those expensive shipping scams!" then you look even further into the fine print and hidden down the bottom is a tiny peice of information "mandatory insurance, 25$ US" for example.
ARGH - total bullshit and it's actually costing EBAY money in fees!
Re:Other stuff that's against the AUP
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Awwwwww. Sucks a DICK to be you, you poor innocent closed-source fuck. I hope you never see your money back and that more "illegal" copies get made.
The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
tepples
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· Score: 2, Insightful
The payment service that paypalsucks.com recommends appears to charge a $29.95 monthly fee ($10 statement fee + $19.95 Internet gateway fee). How can receivers of only small amounts of PayPal donations afford this fee?
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
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bateleur
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· Score: 1
Also note that paypalsucks.com makes use of the extremely shady "WHOIS Privacy Protection Service", popular with spammers. Their contact page contains no contact details, only a CGI form. There is no "about us" page on their site.
It's a fair bet that some PayPal competitor or similar is behind it. If anything, I feel happier about using PayPal having read it.
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
Ruff_ilb
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· Score: 1
Don't forget Google Checkout, which (afaik) can be used for donations and is actually cheaper for small donations than PayPal. PayPal isn't the only big kid on the block anymore.
-- http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
"Don't forget Google Checkout, which (afaik) can be used for donations and is actually cheaper for small donations than PayPal."
The difference between PayPal and Google Checkout is that with PayPal, the donor does not need to have a credit card while with Google Checkout one does. There are still people in this world who have never had credit cards and pay by cash. I know it is rare, but they still exist.
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
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KDR_11k
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· Score: 1
Dunno, I've got an account with Moneybookers since Play-Asia required that and they say they're free for merchants and take 1% with a maximum fee of 0.70$ per transaction if you use email payment. Withdrawal is 2.40$ per action but if you don't empty the account that often it shouldn't cost too much.
No idea if they're good but the rates seem tolerable even for donations.
-- Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
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tepples
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· Score: 1
Their contact page contains no contact details, only a CGI form.
My own web site also uses a CGI form to discourage spammers. Do you expect each web site to disclose a paper mail address?
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
bateleur
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· Score: 1
The point is not that I think CGI contact is evil (I don't). The difference is that your site says right on the front page who you actually are. Whoever is behind paypalsucks has gone to considerable lengths to hide their identity.
Now possibly they're just paranoid and believe that PayPal would care enough to hunt them down and wee on their lawn, but will be stopped by these sorts of measures (ho ho).
Personally, I'm more inclined to conclude it's shady business. You don't see Microsoft's detractors hiding their identities, do you?
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
FooBarWidget
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· Score: 1
Google Checkout is no good alternative for Paypal. It doesn't even support European and Asian merchants and buyers. Any US-only payment website is useless to me.
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
Ant+P.
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· Score: 1
That's because Microsoft detractors can use the Spartacus defence.
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
stfu asshole nobody cares about shit outside the US dumbass
Re:The alternative is $359.40 per year
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Can Google Checkout be used as a "tip jar" the same way that some people use PayPal?
-- This guy's the limit!
Re:checkout
by
larry+bagina
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· Score: 2, Informative
Google checkout has a fee structure similar to normal credit card processors. It's designed for c2b, not c2c. They do allow donations for 501c3 tax exempt organizations. It's not designed for sending a couple bucks to a guy living in his parents basement.
-- Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Importation is infringement
by
tepples
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· Score: 2, Informative
BTW, "the play of import software" - so imported software is a no-no, but domestic software is okay?
Regional lockouts in video game consoles are made specifically to enforce 17 USC 602 and foreign counterparts, which claims that importation of a copy of a work without permission of the copyright owner is infringement despite the first sale limitation (17 USC 109 and foreign counterparts) that applies domestically.
Re:Importation is infringement
by
F-3582
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· Score: 1
I've never seen a PC with region lockouts, yet. There might be some japanese hentai games that will only work on a japanese Windows, but everything else should work fine on any PC.
Re:Importation is infringement
by
DesireCampbell
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· Score: 1
I think he's refereing specificallly to console games. Most game consoles (like DVD players) are region locked. Notable exceptions include the Gameboy DS, and the PS3 (apparently).
Re:Importation is infringement
by
tomhudson
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· Score: 1
All the more reason why all computers, etc., should then be banned by fee-Bay. They all allow for the playing of imported software.
Re:Importation is infringement
by
ajs318
·
· Score: 1
Region lockout of DVD movies is explicitly against European and British competition laws. All DVD players sold On The Continent should be region 0 / region 255 at time of purchase. Most brand-name DVD players sold in the UK are de-regionalisable using the remote control but are set to Region 2 at time of purchase. "No brand" DVD players sold in the UK are usually region 0 / region 255 at time of purchase and many can also play DivX movies.
Region lockout of console games probably breaks exactly the same laws, but I don't think there has been a test case yet. If and when there is, expect Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft to have their arses handed to them on a plate.
-- Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Re:Importation is infringement
by
Haeleth
·
· Score: 1
Regional lockouts in video game consoles are made specifically to enforce 17 USC 602 and foreign counterparts
Huh, maybe you're reading a different 17 USC 602 than the one I'm reading, which specifically states that it does not apply to "importation, for the private use of the importer and not for distribution, by any person".
Regional lockouts in video game consoles thus manage to restrict explicitly legal activities, without significantly hampering the illegal activities they're supposedly targeting. Sound familiar?
Re:Importation is infringement
by
Haeleth
·
· Score: 1
There might be some japanese hentai games that will only work on a japanese Windows, but everything else should work fine on any PC.
Ancient DOS games, perhaps. But Western Windows has been able to run all Japanese Windows software for years. Win2k+ with the system codepage ("language for non-Unicode applications" in XP) set to Japanese is indistinguishable from Japanese Windows from a software point of view.
I guess you can't buy joysticks/ keyboards
by
krell
·
· Score: 1
Joysticks and keyboards, after all, do let you play import games and enhance the game experience. So do monitors.
-- Where were you when the voynix came?
Online banking in the USA is in the Stone Age
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I don't get the point of PayPal. In European Union I can make electronic bank transfers to any account in euro-using countries for free with a couple of mouse clicks on my home computer.
Maybe eventually the banks in the United States also figure out this thing called telecommunication. Right now online payments there work so that a bank actually prints a cheque and sends it in snail mail to the bank of the receiver of the money...! It's true!
Re:Online banking in the USA is in the Stone Age
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I don't get the point of PayPal. In European Union I can make electronic bank transfers to any account in euro-using countries for free with a couple of mouse clicks on my home computer.
Let me introduce you to a deposed president of Nigeria...
Pay Pay haven't thought things through clearly. From the article, they broke the AUP by having donations for software that can "run software on systems other than it was purchased for". Well, I bought a few games ages ago to run on my PC. Guess what. I'm running them on my PC still. ScummVM just means the games carry on working despite me upgrading the OS a little. So, Pay Pal would like to prevent people making my upgrade path more comfortable and simple? For shame!
Re:Perhaps..
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Yes, but ScummVM can also be used to run the Acorn version of Simon the Sorcerer on a PC.
Choosing PayPal is a fault
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
PayPal is not a bank. They can practically freeze your account (and money) indefinitely and no regulation can stop them from doing so.
I really wish Sourceforge (which is also owned by OSTG like Slashdot) would stop supporting PayPal and choose a more reliable service to handle project donations
Don't trust your money to PayPal. All regulations that keep regular banks from just stealing from you do not apply for PayPal.
Re:Choosing PayPal is a fault
by
b0s0z0ku
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
PayPal is not a bank.
I thought PayPal *was* legally a bank.
-b.
Re:Choosing PayPal is a fault
by
The+MAZZTer
·
· Score: 1
Someone should start an SF project for that, and then people could donate to it to support it and... oh wait... doh.
Re:Choosing PayPal is a fault
by
Dragonslicer
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Nope, which is why they can freeze your account and keep all your money for any (or no) reason at any time. If Paypal were registered as a bank, they'd have to follow all the regulations, which might cut into their profits.
While it is their right to deny anyone for any reason, this stuff is stupid and only drives away business. Same goes for Ebay with the stuff they 'ban' from auction.
Shitty behaviour does NOT drive away business, if there's no meaningful competition. If no one else offers the same level of support and comparable market penetration to paypal, then they can be as offensive and dirty as they want without losing any business.
That's why anti-trust laws don't prevent monopolies, but restrict their behaviour.
--
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
The alternative is cheaper than paypal
by
Colin+Smith
·
· Score: 1
They are cheaper for low prices/volumes. The DTI have a comparison web site comparing the processing companies for small businesses: http://www.electronic-payments.co.uk/
-- Deleted
Email to support
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
We are sorry you are disappointed.
Sincerely, PayPal, Acceptable Use Policy Department PayPal, an eBay Company
Sorry, I really don't believe credit card companies don't work that way.
Should be:
Sorry, I really don't believe credit card companies work that way.
This isn't true and/or is misleading.
by
RealityThreek
·
· Score: 1
Most large organizations accept electronic fund transfers. I pay all my bills online (apartment, car, electric, cable, dsl, and college loans (i have 4)) and only one of my college loans doesn't accept the transfer electronically. That one is mailed as a check instead.
-- :wq
Re:This isn't true and/or is misleading.
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
This might work locally with some companies, but if you want to make an "online payment" to an account in a different bank, not even necessarily in a different state, the is going to be a paper check printed and sent by your bank.
Re:This isn't true and/or is misleading.
by
nxtw
·
· Score: 1
Perhaps he/she is referring to the many companies that will accept a routing and account number and EFT money directly out of your bank account (for example, Chase).
but the only difference is that CC companies are regulated, otherwise they would be worse than Paypal.
Agreed. Thus my point about them wanting to have it both ways. I used to have friends who worked for PayPal, and have a tenancy towards "let the market deal with it" solutions, but there comes a point where you're engaging in fraudulent practices and should be reined in.
Either they aren't a bank, in which case they shouldn't be allowed to do banking, or they are, and they should have to play be the same rules as regular backs. Which, among other things, can't decide not to honor payments just because they don't like you.
--MarkusQ
P.S. I'm no fan of credit card companies either. Or loan sharks, or venture capitalists.
Fucking Paypal. Consistently evil.
by
__aailob1448
·
· Score: 1
I mean what the FUCK business of theirs is it if money goes to support homebrew software or emulation?
That shit is LEGAL! LEGAL GODDAMNIT! Those people don't distribute roms.
When you're a fucking monopoly on internet transactions, you don't fucking abuse your power. You do what the law requires you to do AND THAT's IT! God forbid they should spend their energies making sure honest sellers don't get screwed by people who hacked accounts.
I'm somewhat unsure of your sentiments towards Paypal. Don't hold back. What are you really trying to say?
In the words of Special Agent Nelvill Flynn:
by
Ruff_ilb
·
· Score: 1
Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherfucking paypals on this motherfucking 'net!
We're about to open some fucking adsense accounts! All praises to the google!
-- http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
Paypal Suck bigtime
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
If paypal had decent support, they could get away with crap like this. The problem is that their customer support is terrible (frankly the entire service is crap) yet they set themselves up to pass morality judgements on the activities of their users. Somebody receiving money in return for goods or services that are illegal should be dealt with by law enforcement, not the company handling the transaction.
Huh, maybe you're reading a different 17 USC 602 than the one I'm reading, which specifically states that it does not apply to "importation, for the private use of the importer and not for distribution, by any person".
True, but the ban does manage to keep import games off of video game retailers' shelves, and it means that video game stores that sell import games to U.S. residents pursuant to 602(a)(2) have to ship each individual package from the country of origin, not import in bulk and ship domestically.
some DVD drives/decoders have lockouts
by
ProfBooty
·
· Score: 1
i have a Creative dvd drive with a regional lockout. There is software to reflash the drive though.
-- Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Re:some DVD drives/decoders have lockouts
by
SCPRedMage
·
· Score: 1
That's for DVD movies, not software. All DVD drives have regional-lockout support for DVD-Video.
So when are they going to cut off donations for the DosBox project? (http://dosbox.sf.net) Or ZSNES? (http://www.zsnes.com/index.php?page=donate) Or even Wine? (http://www.winehq.com/site/contributing#wpf) Come on, folks, this is ridiculous.
PayPal is anything but secure
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Whenever I hear PayPal it brings up some bad bad memories. My PayPal account as well as my bank account I used for joining it got hacked several times. After spending hours on the phone with those guys the last time it happened they simply refused to investigate and put the burden on me. At first I thought I was the only PayPay victim but it seems like this happens all the time. I am still waiting to hear back from them and still have some hope that I might see at least some of my money again but PayPal is anything but secure and the fact that they are trying to get your bank info when you join is very sketchy and absolutely irresponsible. Those guys are criminals!
Re:obscure reference
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Monkey Island.
Very Few Options
by
Kagato
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I feel bad for the guys. The problem they are going to run into is that PayPal, for all that is evil about them, does one this really well. Running donation payment processing.
While they can look for alternitive payment systems, they will run into the issue that Donation systems have extremely high fraud rates. Why? Because donations have very little anti-fraud proceedures. So they are a megnet for people who want to test stolen credit card numbers out on. Most merchant solutions will shut you down if you hit 1-2% fraud against all your transaction rate. Since PayPal was both an aquiring bank, and payment processor, they were able to side step a lot of that. As well as set up a lot of anti-fraud stuff that kicked in before the merchant even noticed.
double standards
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
It's amusing to see paypal do this seeing as they are more than happy to process payments when it comes to MMO gold/credit/whatever buying. Transactions like this "exploit" the MMO world, none of these are being shut down rapidly.
ScummVMs Appeal to Paypal
by
Ndr_Amigo
·
· Score: 4, Informative
I didn't expect this to hit Slashdot, so we were a bit unprepared for the amount of feedback:)
But yeah, its all legal and above board. A project like ScummVM isn't really something anyone would expect Paypal to take issue with:)
For those that like reading about lost causes, heres our (denied) appeal (including Paypals initial complaint and the response to our appeal).
whats with virtualisation?
by
AlgorithMan
·
· Score: 1
which enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software
wouldn't this also affect virtualisation software? many copy protections detect virtual cd-drives by looking through the running processes, but if you run the games in virtual PCs, then such copy protections can't look at the processes that run on the real PC - only at those running on the virtual one, which wouldn't contain a virtual cd-drive software...
-- The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
Give paypal a call (888) 221-1161
by
mysteryvortex
·
· Score: 1
Paypal likes to hide their phone number, give them a call and tell them what you think of this situation. I've personally used SCUMMVM to play Sam and Max, it would have been very hard without it. Others have said that some games oficially come with SCUMMVM these days.
Be very careful about using numbers posted in forums on the net (and this includes ours.)
Their toll free number is (888) 221-1161 - personally verified by experience of the admin of this site.
Their NEW regular telephone number is: (650) 864-8000 - (verify)
An automated phone number is 402-935-7733 (verified by admin)
Another regular telephone number is: (402)935-2050 - (verify)
408 376 7400 fax: 408-376-7514 (Verified by Whois)
One of their fax numbers is: (402)537-5765 - (unverified, but probably good)
Another fax number is: (650)251-1101 - (verified via whois search)
The entire block of phone numbers from (402)935-2100 to (402)935-2299 seems to be all PayPal's. This list of PayPal phone numbers was created by a user of PayPalSucks.com.
PayPal UK is 08707 307 191 (UK national call rates apply)
PayPal UK FAX is 020 8605 3001. (verify by entering PayPal's registration number which is 226056.)
What I find so interesting about the "game enhancer" thing, is that this could imply *anyone* that sells any modern game consoles, including properly-regioned, unmodified consoles. Almost every modern console has software built into them that can directly affect a user's gaming experience (such as age rating restrictions, parental controls, etc...). Doesn't this qualify as "enhancement"?
You really put your finger on that one. You are exactly right. I don't think PayPal had much liability in this case. The writer(s) of the software didn't need paypal to create their software, and Paypal is a service that benefits the consumer (for convenience) and themselves (they take a few percent). Anybody else probably would have hung in there, and terminated the situation if any real trouble started.
As a professional software engineer, I have always had some troubled feelings about reverse engineering. Whether done by hand, or using Microsoft supplied ildasm. Over the years though it seems like many people don't see a problem with it. Software vendors still put nomenclature on the disk label stating that reverse engineering (disassembly) is prohibited, but there are lots of convenient software packages that take apart binaries.
If someone figured out a way to run more games (which still must be purchased) on their game machines, more power to them. It still sells more software, and many more games than game shims.
Slashdot Mirror
Stick google adsense in the HTML.
well, ScummVM certainly doesn't allow me to play my "backup version" of Day of the Tentacle - the copy protection quiz is there in full effect :(
Nochex, worldpay or whatever.
Deleted
This is like VISA or mastercard all of a sudden decide that you can no longer by porn with their cards ?? make very little bussiness sense to me.
http://www.paypalsucks.com/
That PayPal enforce some arbitrary set of rules and close accounts is not news (not for several years). That they didn't confiscate the funds for once (?) maybe is...
...about alienating technolically savvy people, but for the life of me I can't think what it would be. I think the tipping point is not far off where Ebay is no longer relevent, and when it goes down so will PayPal.
I've about had it with PayPal. They want to have it both ways--they want to be the blameless intermediary who can not be held responsible for what their customers do (in essence, a bank), yet they want to meddle in every transaction, and pass judgment on issues that are none of their business just because they hold the money.
With a credit card company, at least they have the argument that--until you pay them back--it's their money on the line.
Note that no laws are being broken, and so far as I can see no one even complained. This is as bad as a bank deciding that they didn't want to cash valid checks for some people because "we don't like your kind around here."
--MarkusQ
They're scumm anyway.
If feeBay wants to be consistent (ha - fat chance), they would have to ban a lot more stuff:
"Game enhancers (which enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software).'"
They'd have to ban the sale of all new and used laptops, desktops, and game consoles - people use these all the time to play backups.
BTW, "the play of import software" - so imported software is a no-no, but domestic software is okay?
The payment service that paypalsucks.com recommends appears to charge a $29.95 monthly fee ($10 statement fee + $19.95 Internet gateway fee). How can receivers of only small amounts of PayPal donations afford this fee?
Can Google Checkout be used as a "tip jar" the same way that some people use PayPal?
This guy's the limit!
Regional lockouts in video game consoles are made specifically to enforce 17 USC 602 and foreign counterparts, which claims that importation of a copy of a work without permission of the copyright owner is infringement despite the first sale limitation (17 USC 109 and foreign counterparts) that applies domestically.
Joysticks and keyboards, after all, do let you play import games and enhance the game experience. So do monitors.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I don't get the point of PayPal. In European Union I can make electronic bank transfers to any account in euro-using countries for free with a couple of mouse clicks on my home computer.
Maybe eventually the banks in the United States also figure out this thing called telecommunication. Right now online payments there work so that a bank actually prints a cheque and sends it in snail mail to the bank of the receiver of the money...! It's true!
Pay Pay haven't thought things through clearly. From the article, they broke the AUP by having donations for software that can "run software on systems other than it was purchased for".
Well, I bought a few games ages ago to run on my PC. Guess what. I'm running them on my PC still. ScummVM just means the games carry on working despite me upgrading the OS a little.
So, Pay Pal would like to prevent people making my upgrade path more comfortable and simple? For shame!
PayPal is not a bank. They can practically freeze your account (and money) indefinitely and no regulation can stop them from doing so.
Just go to http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and see how often they've done that in the past.
I really wish Sourceforge (which is also owned by OSTG like Slashdot) would stop supporting PayPal and choose a more reliable service to handle project donations
Don't trust your money to PayPal. All regulations that keep regular banks from just stealing from you do not apply for PayPal.
While it is their right to deny anyone for any reason, this stuff is stupid and only drives away business. Same goes for Ebay with the stuff they 'ban' from auction.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Use nochex
http://www.nochex.com/
They are cheaper for low prices/volumes. The DTI have a comparison web site comparing the processing companies for small businesses:
http://www.electronic-payments.co.uk/
Deleted
Dear xxxxx,
s html
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
We are sorry you are disappointed.
Sincerely,
PayPal, Acceptable Use Policy Department
PayPal, an eBay Company
Original Message Follows:
http://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?p=12891
http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/09/04/1227227.
that just sucks, I will never ever use paypal again, unless you take
that back!
I made a mistake.
Sorry, I really don't believe credit card companies don't work that way.
Should be:
Sorry, I really don't believe credit card companies work that way.
Most large organizations accept electronic fund transfers. I pay all my bills online (apartment, car, electric, cable, dsl, and college loans (i have 4)) and only one of my college loans doesn't accept the transfer electronically. That one is mailed as a check instead.
:wq
The correct URL is http://paypalsucks.org/.
My other comment is funny
nt
:wq
It also allows one to play regular, licensed copies of the games as well.
The horror!
Agreed. Thus my point about them wanting to have it both ways. I used to have friends who worked for PayPal, and have a tenancy towards "let the market deal with it" solutions, but there comes a point where you're engaging in fraudulent practices and should be reined in.
Either they aren't a bank, in which case they shouldn't be allowed to do banking, or they are, and they should have to play be the same rules as regular backs. Which, among other things, can't decide not to honor payments just because they don't like you.
--MarkusQ
P.S. I'm no fan of credit card companies either. Or loan sharks, or venture capitalists.
I mean what the FUCK business of theirs is it if money goes to support homebrew software or emulation?
That shit is LEGAL! LEGAL GODDAMNIT! Those people don't distribute roms.
When you're a fucking monopoly on internet transactions, you don't fucking abuse your power. You do what the law requires you to do AND THAT's IT! God forbid they should spend their energies making sure honest sellers don't get screwed by people who hacked accounts.
Goddamned cocksuckers.
Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherfucking paypals on this motherfucking 'net!
We're about to open some fucking adsense accounts! All praises to the google!
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
If paypal had decent support, they could get away with crap like this. The problem is that their customer support is terrible (frankly the entire service is crap) yet they set themselves up to pass morality judgements on the activities of their users. Somebody receiving money in return for goods or services that are illegal should be dealt with by law enforcement, not the company handling the transaction.
True, but the ban does manage to keep import games off of video game retailers' shelves, and it means that video game stores that sell import games to U.S. residents pursuant to 602(a)(2) have to ship each individual package from the country of origin, not import in bulk and ship domestically.
i have a Creative dvd drive with a regional lockout. There is software to reflash the drive though.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
So when are they going to cut off donations for the DosBox project? (http://dosbox.sf.net) Or ZSNES? (http://www.zsnes.com/index.php?page=donate) Or even Wine? (http://www.winehq.com/site/contributing#wpf) Come on, folks, this is ridiculous.
Whenever I hear PayPal it brings up some bad bad memories. My PayPal account as well as my bank account I used for joining it got hacked several times. After spending hours on the phone with those guys the last time it happened they simply refused to investigate and put the burden on me. At first I thought I was the only PayPay victim but it seems like this happens all the time. I am still waiting to hear back from them and still have some hope that I might see at least some of my money again but PayPal is anything but secure and the fact that they are trying to get your bank info when you join is very sketchy and absolutely irresponsible. Those guys are criminals!
Dear PayPal
Oh yeah! You fight like a cow!
Love
Your friends at ScummVM
I feel bad for the guys. The problem they are going to run into is that PayPal, for all that is evil about them, does one this really well. Running donation payment processing.
While they can look for alternitive payment systems, they will run into the issue that Donation systems have extremely high fraud rates. Why? Because donations have very little anti-fraud proceedures. So they are a megnet for people who want to test stolen credit card numbers out on. Most merchant solutions will shut you down if you hit 1-2% fraud against all your transaction rate. Since PayPal was both an aquiring bank, and payment processor, they were able to side step a lot of that. As well as set up a lot of anti-fraud stuff that kicked in before the merchant even noticed.
It's amusing to see paypal do this seeing as they are more than happy to process payments when it comes to MMO gold/credit/whatever buying. Transactions like this "exploit" the MMO world, none of these are being shut down rapidly.
I didn't expect this to hit Slashdot, so we were a bit unprepared for the amount of feedback :)
But yeah, its all legal and above board. A project like ScummVM isn't really something anyone would expect Paypal to take issue with :)
For those that like reading about lost causes, heres our (denied) appeal (including Paypals initial complaint and the response to our appeal).
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
From the paypalsucks.com FAQ:
What I find so interesting about the "game enhancer" thing, is that this could imply *anyone* that sells any modern game consoles, including properly-regioned, unmodified consoles. Almost every modern console has software built into them that can directly affect a user's gaming experience (such as age rating restrictions, parental controls, etc...). Doesn't this qualify as "enhancement"?
8==8 Bones 8==8
You really put your finger on that one. You are exactly right. I don't think PayPal had much liability in this case. The writer(s) of the software didn't need paypal to create their software, and Paypal is a service that benefits the consumer (for convenience) and themselves (they take a few percent). Anybody else probably would have hung in there, and terminated the situation if any real trouble started. As a professional software engineer, I have always had some troubled feelings about reverse engineering. Whether done by hand, or using Microsoft supplied ildasm. Over the years though it seems like many people don't see a problem with it. Software vendors still put nomenclature on the disk label stating that reverse engineering (disassembly) is prohibited, but there are lots of convenient software packages that take apart binaries. If someone figured out a way to run more games (which still must be purchased) on their game machines, more power to them. It still sells more software, and many more games than game shims.
How about creating an Amazon honor system tip jar?
t ml/ref=zm_pb_h_09/058-4962647-3756209
http://zme.amazon.com/exec/varzea/subst/fx/home.h
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
happily, closing an account on paypal is real easy ;)