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Supernova Casts Doubt on "Standard Candle"

Krishna Dagli writes, "A supernova more than twice as bright as others of its type has been observed, suggesting it arose from a star that managed to grow more massive than theoretically thought possible. The observation suggests that Type 1a supernovae may not be 'standard candles' — all having the same intrinsic luminosity — as previously thought. This could affect their use as probes of dark energy, the mysterious force causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate."

18 of 132 comments (clear)

  1. Oh really... by tttonyyy · · Score: 4, Funny

    "twice as bright as others of its type"

    Obviously not a /. reader then. ;)

    --
    biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
    1. Re:Oh really... by Lissajous · · Score: 5, Funny
      "twice as bright as others of its type"

      Obviously not a /. reader then. ;)

      I don't get it.
  2. The universe will out by Oligonicella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Models are just that, models. Change them when the universe shoves reality down your throat. Far too many people think that math defines the universe instead of describing it.

    1. Re:The universe will out by rocketman768 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think you are exactly right. I am a mathematician. People should understand that all of mathematics is an abstract concept created by humans. Why does 2+3 = 5? Because we said it does...not because it is universally true. Sometimes (in the case of 'models'), we put some math together to attempt to explain what we see. As we discover new behaviors in whatever system we're looking at, we have to change the math. So, this article is about one of those instances.

    2. Re:The universe will out by The_Wilschon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So why is it that electric fields follow the law of superposition, which is an additive law working precisely as we said addition should thousands of years before we ever imagined electric fields? Furthermore, how is it that we can "prediscover" phenomena? We develop a model to describe existing data, and whoops!, there's another phenomenon implicit in our model, and sure enough when we look for it in reality, there it is!

      This is a fairly poor summarization of the argument made by Tom Siegfried (used to be chief science writer for the Dallas Morning News, now he's somewhere else) in his book Strange Matters.

      Perhaps you are right, and mathematics is just something we came up with. However, where did we come up with it from? Our brains. Our brains are part of the universe, so if the universe is goverrned by laws which can be well expressed in mathematical language, one might predict that brains would invent mathematics.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    3. Re:The universe will out by KutuluWare · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think his point would be more accurately expressed as this:

      "Why is 2 + 3 = 5?"

      Because the arbitrary definitions which we assigned to the symbols 2, 3, 5, +, and = happen to represent real-world concepts that exhibit the behavior that 2 + 3 = 5, and not because there is any abstract universal rule that "2 + 3 = 5" and we simply need to find real-world behavior to prove it. That is, the real-world behavior has always existed, but the mathematical language used to express it was invented by us and assigned to those behaviors specifically to make the mathematics true.

      (Or something, it's early.)

      --K

    4. Re:The universe will out by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      And given the base definitions, 2+3=5 is universally true.

      2+3=5 is not univserally true, it is true within the framework of a common set of axioms. Here is an example of a simple set of axioms which allow us to prove that 2+3 = 5 (within the framework of those axioms):

      Let s(X) be the successor function applied to the variable X.
      Let 0 be a symbol in our algebra.
      Let 0 = 0. (1)
      Let s(X) = s(X) if and only if X = Y. (2)
      We now have equality defined.

      Let X + 0 = X. (3)
      Let X + s(Y) = s(X) + Y. (4)
      Let X + Y = Y + X. (5)
      We now have addition defined.

      We define a set of symbols such that 2 = s(s(0)), 3 = s(s(s(0))), and 5 = s(s(s(s(s(0))))).
      2+3 = 5 is therefore equivalent to s(s(0) + s(s(s(0))) = s(s(s(s(s(0))))).

      We can rewrite this by applying our axoims (axiom number given in brackets) so that:
      s(s(s(0))) + s(s(0)) = s(s(s(s(s(0))))) (4)
      s(s(s(s(0)))) + s(0) = s(s(s(s(s(0))))) (4)
      s(s(s(s(s(0))))) + 0 = s(s(s(s(s(0))))) (4)
      s(s(s(s(s(0))))) = s(s(s(s(s(0))))) (3)
      s(s(s(s(0)))) = s(s(s(s(0)))) (2)
      s(s(s(0))) = s(s(s(0))) (2)
      s(s(0)) = s(s(0)) (2)
      s(0) = s(0) (2)
      0 = 0 (2)

      This gives axiom 0, and so is true.

      Anyone wanting to play with these ideas in a more hands-on way should download a prolog implementation (I recommend SWI Prolog). You can implement these axioms in prolog as the following program (the first two are implicitly defined):

      % add(X,Y,Z) predicate represents X + Y = Z
      add(X,0,X).
      add(X,s(Y),Z) :- add(s(X),Y,Z).
      add(X,Y,Z) :- add(Y,X,Z).
      You can then ask it questions in the following way:
      ?- add(s(s(0)),s(s(s(0))),Five).

      Five = s(s(s(s(s(0)))))

      Yes
      Your homework from this post is to extend this system to define multiplication.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:The universe will out by inviolet · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Because the arbitrary definitions which we assigned to the symbols 2, 3, 5, +, and = happen to represent real-world concepts that exhibit the behavior that 2 + 3 = 5, and not because there is any abstract universal rule that "2 + 3 = 5" and we simply need to find real-world behavior to prove it.

      Quoted for truth. I want to elaborate (i.e. ramble) on it a bit . . .

      Numbers are indeed a deductive system: they are true because they are defined to be true. They are true in all conceivable universes. This makes them useful but also hollow: they contain no empirical content, and hence are immune to all conceivable experimental results.

      Nevertheless, they (and all other deductive symbols) can participate in inductive statements, such as "2 algae cells will combine with 3 fungi cells to produce 1 lichen".

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    6. Re:The universe will out by saider · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That the area of a triangle inscribed in a circle is equal to the product of its three sides divided by four times the circles radius is a physical fact...

      Only for perfectly flat space. In reality, all space is curved even if by just a little bit.

      We generally discover that what we believe to be a fundamental truth is often dependant on assumptions that we are not aware of. This is where brilliant minds discover more about our world by exposing these hidden assumptions.

      Also, we tend to aggregate things for convenience. But the universe does not concern itself with such things. To the universe, 2 apples + 3 apples is simply a lot of quantum particles going about their business. We may have simplified things to 2+3, but that is not what it really is. 2+3 works for most cases, but there will be edges where the simpler math breaks down and if you do not realize that you are dealing with quantum particles instead of a few apples, you may become very frustrated.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    7. Re:The universe will out by Control+Group · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is certainly true, but don't undersell math, either. The amazing part of math is that, given certain axioms and definitions crafted to describe and fit easily-observed physical phenomena, logical extrapolations of those axioms and definitions can accurately describe physical phenomena we have not yet observed.

      That is, mathematics is not purely descriptive as it relates to science. As an example, it is my understanding that the phenomenon of time dilation as velocity increases towards c was first "observed" as a result of mathematical manipulations of exsiting models, long before it was (or could be) experimentally observed.

      If math were purely descriptive, this would not be the case - or, if it were, it would be only by sheerest chance; the exception, rather than the rule.

      I agree, of course, that math comes out of description; 2+3=5 because those numbers represent specific physical quantities, and when you have real items in those quantities, they behave in that fashion. However, I can't help believing that there is something inherently "real" about math itself, since the logical structure of math agrees so well with physical reality so often - enough so, in fact, that the mathematical understanding of a physical phenomenon can predate observation of that physical phenomenon.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
  3. Re:Canada-France-Hawaii telescope? by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 4, Informative
    because
    CFHT is a joint facility of:

    * National Research Council of Canada (see also Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics),
    * Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique of France (see also CNRS/INSU ), and
    * University of Hawaii (see also UH/IfA ).
    i.e. two national bodies and one local body. This is all on their website http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/
    --
    init 11 - for when you need that edge.
  4. Re:Canada-France-Hawaii telescope? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's how we Americans do geography. We know where Hawaii is, and we know that Canada is (vaguely) north of us, and France is somewhere in Asia.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  5. This is a GOOD thing.... by trip11 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ...as supernova are not well understood. First off I am not an astrophysicist, though I am a high energy physicist (and have taken some astro classes). One thing that has been discussed in nuclear classes I have taken is how little we understand just how a supernova functions at the atomic level. The number of competing effects going on during the collapse of a star is just amazing. You have gravitational pull, thermal pressure, rotational 'pressure', electromagnetic forces in a regular star. Now you start to collapse the star and you have to add in the transition of millions of individual nuclei becoming in effect one large nucleous as they all mearge. (not to mention the energy output from this). In effect the strong force comes into play along with the standard EM and gravitational forces. It gets much more complicated than that, but it has been several years since those classes.

    So why do I think this is a 'good thing'? As the article speculates, it is likely that this supernova was different because of some rotational process or perhaps colliding stars, or some other exotic combination. This is exactly the sort of process that can be used as a test of supernova models to see how well they do. Over all I find this a very exciting observation and hopefully it produces more new science!

  6. more important than 'probes of dark energy' by i_should_be_working · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The observation suggests supernovae of this type are not "standard candles" as previously thought, which could affect their use as probes of dark energy - the mysterious force causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate.

    If true, this wouldn't just affect their use as probes of dark energy. These standard candles are used to tell how far away things are and how fast they are moving. The age of the universe could be in doubt.

    But I have a hunch this particular supernova will turn out to be an anomaly. Not that I'm a astrophysicist or anything.

    1. Re:more important than 'probes of dark energy' by The_Wilschon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I doubt it. Our actual measurements of dark energy won't come under much increased doubt. Although Type IA supernovae the first (IIRC) indicator of dark energy, we still have a number of other indicators. I was just as PASCOS 2006, and saw several talks on dark energy, where various quantities related to the acceleration of the universe were really overconstrained by about 4-5 different measurements. The only one I can recall at the moment is gravitational lensing. The neat thing is that although overconstraint has the possibility to show an inconsistency, it doesn't do so here. The measurements all line up at one point (well, a distribution around one point, but that distribution is quite nicely peaked in one location, indicating consistency.).

      Similarly, Type IA SN are not the only mechanism by which we measure the age of the universe, so I'm not too concerned. The other reason I'm not too concerned is that the age of the universe was already in doubt. Another talk at PASCOS dealt with something else that I can't recall at the moment (curse my memory in the morning!) that cast into simultaneous doubt all or nearly all of our universe age indicators. IIRC, according to his talk, the universe could well be 20% older than our current best estimate.

      Of course, since all these are not quite my field (I was at PASCOS for the particle physics), I can't answer for whether or not these guys were just crazies and all the cosmologists were ignoring them, or if these are serious problems that will be dealt with in the next few years. I'd be inclined, however, to assume that they were quite legit.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
  7. The observational evidence is surprisingly scanty by StupendousMan · · Score: 5, Informative

    I study supernovae for a living.

    The Nature paper in which this work is published has a figure showing all the measurements of this supernova's brightness; you can see it on Nature's web site at

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7109/fi g_tab/nature05103_F1.html

    There are four measurements near time of maximum light, in the red (r) and near-infrared (i) passbands. There are many more measurements starting about 15 days after maximum light in the rest frame, including some in a blue-green (g) passband. Here's what the researchers did to find the maximum brightness of this supernova, so that they could compare it to others:

        a) fit models based on the light curves of other supernovae to the r and i measurements,
                      and the late-time g measurements

        b) choose a different passband -- the greenish V passband of the Johnson-Cousins system,
                      which is closest to their own g passband (the one with no data at max light)

        c) use their models to estimate what the light curve in the V filter would have been

    This can be a tricky business. Their major conclusion, that this supernova was more luminous than typical ones, is probably correct, but their claim that they can measure the peak magnitude in the V-band to an uncertainty of 6 percent seems a bit bold.

    As the press release states, if atypical SNe are very rare, then this probably doesn't have any major impact on the use of Type Ia SNe in cosmology.

    --
    Michael Richmond "This is the heart that broke my finger."
    mwrsps@rit.edu http://stupendous.rit.edu
  8. Re:Gravity Lensing? by ByteSlicer · · Score: 3, Informative

    Probably not. Gravitational lensing would cause a noticible shift in the star's spectrum.

  9. Its all Greek to me by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 3, Funny

    So what you are saying is....eh....the thing with the........when the thing with the other thing goes...to.....because the wotsit is like the..eh....so, do they run Linux in their lab?