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Intellectual Property Manifesto for the UK

feepcreature writes "Ars Technica is reporting that the British Library has published a Manifesto calling for a balance in Intellectual Property rights between the interests of users, creators and publishers. There are 6 key recommendations, including: DRM should not override users' statutory rights; analogue rights should apply to digital media; and copyright terms should not be extended without evidence that this would be good for society. There is also part of the debate on the UK Government's Gowers review of Intellectual Property, due to report in the Autumn."

48 of 238 comments (clear)

  1. DRM in the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So who are the DRM pushing companies in the UK?

    1. Re:DRM in the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, it's not about what companies are pushing DRM. No, see this is a library taking the fight to the copyright industry preemptively. They've seen how the movie and music industry is going after P2P services, and they know that they're next.

      All this "sharing" stuff - don't you know that denying companies their deserved profit is stealing?! Think of those poor starving authors whose work you borrowed from the library instead of buying it! Thieving old gradmas, reading books for free! There should be a law I tells ya!

      (Note for the humour impaired: The preceding was not serious, and should not be read if you are sarcasm deficient. Warning: Sarcasm should not be taken internally).

    2. Re:DRM in the UK by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But it was a good question: the companies are the same companies as elsewhere, both US and multi-national. Sony, Disney, Samsung, and other companies interested in DRM protecting their digital investment help prevent what folks in the US call "fair rights" use.

      These desires for DRM are supported heavily by Microsoft, which wants to protect its software licenses and prevent other software from writing or even reading the private formats they use, especially for "personally encrypted" files. The whole field of DRM is about to get much worse with the "Trusted Computing" software program, led by Microsoft, which locks software and media to a specific motherboard's encryption and authentication chip, and which will als be built into the next generation of AMD and Intel CPU's. These tools are aimed squarely at preventing duplication of digital media, and create a real burden for making backup or archival copies of these media. They also specifically restrict the authorized software tools to play these media, making "fair use" sampling or even using other non-specifically licensed players very difficult.

      The libraries of the world are quite right to be concerned about this.

    3. Re:DRM in the UK by Ngwenya · · Score: 2, Informative
      These desires for DRM are supported heavily by Microsoft, which wants to protect its software licenses and prevent other software from writing or even reading the private formats they use, especially for "personally encrypted" files. The whole field of DRM is about to get much worse with the "Trusted Computing" software program, led by Microsoft, which locks software and media to a specific motherboard's encryption and authentication chip,

      Well, hold on a sec. Microsoft has a vision for its Windows system as a home media platform - not a home computing platform. Each new version of Windows angles straight for this goal - to remove the open nature of computing, in favour of a trustworthy media consumption platform. Now, if the studios were happy to trust MS in this regard, DRM would never have happened. MS have no incentive to develop and maintain a mathematical impossibility. But the content producers will simply not produce for computer platforms unless a sufficiently robust anti copying technology is present in the system. Hence MS have no option but to invest in DRM. And since the obnoxiousness of the DMCA and EUCD came to pass, the odious nature of DRM has multiplied.

      Now, as for TC related activity - there's a lot of nonsense talked about this, and I don't have time to go into it right now. TPMs are neither good nor bad. They are simply a way for the owner of the platform to measure the integrity of his/her platform, and to attest that integrity to a remote verifier. That's all it can do. The key here is the word "owner". Vista and friends are very much interested in separating the role of computer and platform owner into that of computer owner and platform licensee. As a licensee, you end up surrendering some ownership rights to MS. But fundamentally, if you control the hardware, you also control the mechanism for verifying any result. A Linux machine running with a TPM has several advantages over one which doesn't - and the TPM won't enforce one damn bit of DRM unless the platform owner wants it to.

      BTW, I can't believe I inadvertently backed Microsoft in a /. post. I'll go and flay some skin from my back by way of mea culpa

      --Ng

    4. Re:DRM in the UK by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 3, Informative
      Now, as for TC related activity - there's a lot of nonsense talked about this, and I don't have time to go into it right now. TPMs are neither good nor bad. They are simply a way for the owner of the platform to measure the integrity of his/her platform, and to attest that integrity to a remote verifier.


      If you're running Windows, your no longer the owner of the system.

      TPM could be a good thing in the hands of, say, a Linux or *BSD developer. That would be nice on a server.
      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    5. Re:DRM in the UK by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Insightful
      No, see this is a library taking the fight to the copyright industry preemptively. They've seen how the movie and music industry is going after P2P services, and they know that they're next.
      On a more serious note, should electronic books ever take off, they will likely be heavily DRM-ed, tied to a single machine, etc. Where will that leave the libraries ?
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    6. Re:DRM in the UK by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      Whoah indeed. There are plenty of reasons not involving Microsoft for manufacturers to want DRM, and they've done it with non-Microsoft related technologies. I don't mean to cast it all on Microsoft.

      But the nature of the Trusted Computing reflects a very clear plan to use it for DRM: Microsft wants it both for protecting their own software from being used in pirate copies, and to mate Windows software to other Windows software that blocks competing products from accessing them. This is particularly true for streaming media: by locking multimedia files and media to specifically, "Trusted Computing" software that has to be authorized by the mother ship, they gain the ability to prevent Putting "Trusted Computing" software on a Linux box does no good for this. Trusted Computing's approach is much more limiting than a standard DVD player: the media can be registered to a specific copy of the media, with a specific software viewer, on a specific host, andn simply refuse to allow viewing it under any software not specifically supported by the media vendor. It may be possible to do screen capture of the output, but that's about it.

      Such capabilities can also be integrated, and are clearly to be integrated, in hardware. This seems reasonable for VPN identification keys or biometrics. But it's obviusly planned as well for CD and DVD burners, to force the duplicator to use authorized software to read the files, and to permit only mothership authorized software to write with that specific burner.

      It's also aimed squarely at the boot system: a Trusted Computing enabled chipset on the motherboard can prevent the booting of any kernel, or bootable device, without an appropriate vendor signature. You'd better believe Microsoft wants this to prevent "Trusted Computing" hardware from booting non-authorized operating systems. It's understandable for security reasons in a corporate environment, but it's deadly for home users or experimenters who may want to install operating systems without the capital to buy and manage Trusted Computing keys.

    7. Re:DRM in the UK by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My library already "lends" out heavily DRM'd e-books. You have to use stupid reader apps, and after 30 days you can't open it anymore. They pay a fee to the publisher every time somebody "checks out" an e-book.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    8. Re:DRM in the UK by Mr2001 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      TPMs are neither good nor bad. They are simply a way for the owner of the platform to measure the integrity of his/her platform, and to attest that integrity to a remote verifier. That's all it can do. [...] But fundamentally, if you control the hardware, you also control the mechanism for verifying any result.

      Well, the thing is, the whole point of that attestation process is to prove to a third party that you're running the software they want you to be running. It doesn't help you at all, except for the fact that they might choose not to speak to you if they suspect you're running something else. But that's none of their business, is it?

      What would really make TPM work for users, instead of against them, would be a "fake out" switch. That is, the ability for the owner of the PC to make his TPM chip attest to a software configuration that he isn't actually running. That way, you'd still get the advantages of TPM (hardware encryption with keys that can't be stolen), without the disadvantages (hardware-enforced DRM).

      It'd essentially do for TPM what a user agent switcher does for web browsers. Today, if you go to a site and it says "Sorry, you can't get in unless you're running IE", you can turn on your UA switcher, and now the site thinks you're running IE. But tomorrow, maybe that site won't be satisfied with your User-Agent header; maybe it'll want a digital signature from your TPM chip proving that you're running IE 7.0 on Windows Vista. If you had a fake out switch, you could still access the site, even if you're running Firefox on Linux. That might upset the people who want to lock their sites to a specific software configuration, but they can go fuck themselves - this feature would be good for users, and that's what matters.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
  2. Life + 70 years by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All that is well and good. We (the communal 'we', not the 'we' as in you Limeys) should of course be allowed to retain the same rights to content and media as was available before they became digital. Digital, as they say in their very first point, is not really different fundamentally than any other publishing medium, and therefore the rights extended to non-digital content should also be extended to digital content.

    The real point I was struck by was how they still hold on to the belief that copyright must last "life+70 years". That can easily last over 100 years of copyright, bestowing on heirs of the creator the benefits of his hard work. This does not incent those heirs to do any creating and only pools the money in their pockets while simultaneously making poor the common intellectual property pool.

    a (age) + p (plus 70) = t (too freaking long)

    What we need is an ool. Notice there's no 'p' in it.

    1. Re:Life + 70 years by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Digital, as they say in their very first point, is not really different fundamentally than any other publishing medium, and therefore the rights extended to non-digital content should also be extended to digital content.

      Yes, it is, because digital reproduction is both a) instant and b) free.

      IMHO, the fact that digital reproduction *is* fundamentally different, is what it has taken to demonstrate how broken the whole idea of copyright is.

    2. Re:Life + 70 years by bersl2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Somebody on Ars pointed out a post here on Slashdot that is, IMO, the most clear and succinct argument against life-plus copyright that I have ever seen, saying (in part):

      I think the reason people don't see infringement as immoral is because they don't understand the social contract that underlies copyright law. And that's because the social contract has been trashed so thoroughly by the media industry that it's effectively invisible. Joe Average isn't stupid, but he's not an IP lawyer and given that he has never seen any copyrights expire during his lifetime, and may never see it, the notion that copyright is a tradeoff of short-term disadvantage for long-term advantage never occurs to him, because as far as he knows it's just a permanent restriction. Ask Joe who owns the copyright to Shakespeare's works and he's likely to think it's a reasonable question.

      (Emphasis mine.)

    3. Re:Life + 70 years by Pofy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >But why should a person, or their family, or their estate, or a company just have
      >their copyright rights whipped away from them?

      They don't. You missed a 1.5 in your list:

      1.5 The public desides to give up certain rights to the created cartoon and grant a time limited copyright to the creator!

      There is nothing taken away from the person, family or whatever, the limited rights they were granted have run out.

      So point five should be:

      5. The creator's given time limited rights by the society expires and the work is again free to be used and inspire the creation of new work to benefit the society.

      By the way, you don't get copyright on recipies so not sure what that part of your reply was about. Perhaps you can seek patent for it, that is VERY different from copyright though, for one, it has a much shorter time limit on the granted rights by the society to you.

    4. Re:Life + 70 years by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, I am in favor of fixed copyright terms.

      Fixed copyright terms of arbitrary length are inherently broken because:

      a) they are vulnerable to extensions of that arbitrary length
      b) they assume all works have the same intrinsic value by offering them all the same level of "protection". Thus, they do not allow the market to make a value judgement.

    5. Re:Life + 70 years by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Ask Joe who owns the copyright to Shakespeare's works and he's likely to think it's a reasonable question.

      There is an old rule that says a classic must be re-translated and re-intrepreted in each generation to remain attractive and readable to a modern audience. That is why Project Gutenberg is no threat to sales of the Penguin Classics.

      I think the reason people don't see infringement as immoral is because they don't understand the social contract that underlies copyright law...Joe Average isn't stupid...he has never seen any copyrights expire during his lifetime, and may never see it

      Joe Average may not own a burner and he may not have any significant involvement eith the P2P nets. Joe is a convenient fiction for the Geek.

      But assume, for the moment, that Joe does exist.

      Joe hasn't seen any copyrights expire in his lifetime because Joe has no interest in content that hasn't been produced in his lifetime. Joe has damn little interest in content that hasn't been published in the last ten years.

      He may, in retro mood, he want Elvis or The Beatles. But not homemade rips from the warped 45s and vinyl LPs to be found in his Grandma's basement. What he wants is expert restoration from the original analog masters.

      Skills he does not have. Sources he does not own.

      Copyright reform would have NO impact on lawsuits by the rights agencies.

      You are never going to get an unrestricted license to redistribute commercially viable content over the Internet.

      Not from China, not from Canada, not from Sweden, not from any country with a domestic cultural product to protect, not from any country with a significant export market in culture. There are no safe havens.

      The P2P hit list is a mirror reflection of those published by weekly by Billboard and Variety. The artists are still very much alive and active, the content is always derived from contemporary commercial sources.

      The Geek doesn't get sued because he uploaded his own scan of Steamboat Willie--nitrate stock, synchronized sound on disk-- the Geek gets sued because he uploaded a screener of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.

  3. hmm. by compro01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    well, i certainly like the looks of this, except for the support for the "life +70" copyright term, which is completely excessive IMO.

    --
    upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  4. Copyrighted by dotslashdot · · Score: 4, Funny

    Was this manifesto copyrighted?

  5. Agree and disagree by Dobeln · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Agree: "The life+70 years term is ludicrous. "To believe that anything beyond lifetime copyright impacts the incentive structure of creators takes some serious suspension of disbelief.

    Disagree: "Going non-digital to digital changes nothing." It does - high-grade, repeated copying becomes a lot more easy and economical with digital media, often at near zero cost. This has two effects, pushing in different directions:

    1. Immense possible benefit to consumers. You can get lots of high-quality stuff for almost nothing!

    2. Immense possible harm to producers. If people are just copying your content free of charge, it's going to eat into your profits in most likely scenarios. In some scenarios, you might cease production entirely, or shift towards more difficult-to-copy formats.

    Depending on your preferences, it's very likely that you will be wanting to rebalance copyright, one way or the other (more lenient, more strict), due to the adoption of digital media.

    1. Re:Agree and disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      2. Immense possible harm to producers. If people are just copying your content free of charge, it's going to eat into your profits in most likely scenarios. In some scenarios, you might cease production entirely, or shift towards more difficult-to-copy formats.

      Don't forget the immense possible benefit to producers: zero cost of production.

    2. Re:Agree and disagree by servognome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That should read: "Don't forget the immense possible benefit to producers: zero cost of reproduction."
      The cost to produce the first copy will still exist.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    3. Re:Agree and disagree by richie2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Don't forget the immense possible benefit to producers: zero cost of production.

      Not really, no. But drastically lowered cost of production, zero cost of distribution and near-zero cost of marketing. These can be recouped in other ways than selling physical copies of content -- in ways that are more diverse, more resilient to technology shifts and gives more money to the real creators. No wonder the distributors are scared shitless...

      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
    4. Re:Agree and disagree by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But drastically lowered cost of production

      As another poster already pointed out, the initial cost of production still exists. Depending on what it is being produced, the move to a digital distribution method may have little or no impact on the cost of production (eg for a writer going from typewriter to PC isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to the amount of money they spend producing the work).

      zero cost of distribution

      Bandwidth is free now? Servers are free?

      Cost of distribution is much lower per unit, but it most certainly is not zero.

      and near-zero cost of marketing.

      Why is that? Because the moment you put something on the web, google and word of mouth will do all your marketing for you? Why does going digital all-but eliminate the need to market your product?

    5. Re:Agree and disagree by truedfx · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Agree: "The life+70 years term is ludicrous. "To believe that anything beyond lifetime copyright impacts the incentive structure of creators takes some serious suspension of disbelief.

      Hmm. Would we suddenly see all sorts of mysterious deaths of authors directly after they publish their works, if the copyright on their works would immediately end? I do agree in principle, but I think a fixed duration of copyright, regardless of how long the copyright holder lives, might be better.

    6. Re:Agree and disagree by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "zero cost of production"

      Let's take the iTMS move store, for example. I submit that the bandwidth needed to download a 1.2GB file has SOME cost, as does building and maintaining the infrastructure needed to ensure that thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people can do so simultaneously.

      And anytime you want to talk about delivering a million copies of anything I think you'll find the costs are far from inconsequential.

      As far as that goes, I'd almost be willing to bet that once those costs are taken into account, the actual costs of delivering a movie online is perhaps only a single order of magnitude away from that of delivering a piece of plastic to a store.

      The actual cost of a mass-produced disc is pennies on the dollar anyway. You pay for the content.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    7. Re:Agree and disagree by badfish99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to this cost breakdown, the production and marketing costs of a £12.99 CD total about £1.60. The retailer and wholesaler between them take £5.97. I couldn't find figures for a DVD but I should think they would be similar.
      On a million units, that would be nearly £6 million delivery costs. I can't believe that distribution via (say) bittorrent would be only one order of magnitude cheaper then this.

    8. Re:Agree and disagree by Pofy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ohh, well, true. If you feel you get to little for what you pay the answer is of course to not buy at all. Of course, in some cases there are legal alternatives were you can pay less or even nothing at all. One such example is to buy second hand.

    9. Re:Agree and disagree by montyzooooma · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "One such example is to buy second hand."

      Except buying a lot of digital goods second hand is going to become next to impossible as they get tied to USERS rather than being tied to a physical product like a CD or DVD.

    10. Re:Agree and disagree by mdwh2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funnily enough, fewer people seem to think that a reasonable proposal than snatching artists' property at, or even before, their deaths.

      Who said anything about snatching property? Nothing is being removed. The state granted a monopoly of production to the original author, and this would simply mean that they don't grant that monopoly to someone else when that person dies).

      If I die, my family get to keep my possessions. But they don't get to continually be paid my salary, or have any rights to my job in anyway. Why should children of artists be treated any differently? I mean, non-artists could make the same emotional argument by whining about how their family will starve if the income is no longer there, but that's tough luck. Family of non-artists have to rely on welfare or insurance for that situation, and those of artists should do to.

      Perhaps making copyright a fixed-term for everyone might be a way round these issues.

    11. Re:Agree and disagree by LocalH · · Score: 4, Informative

      But you can't compare copyright to a brick-and-mortar business - as there are specific laws that govern each of those. Copyright was explicitly codified such that works would go into the public domain - copyright holders knew this going in, but managed to get it extended. Originally, at least in the US, copyright was supposed to last a maximum of 28 years - one 14-year term and one 14-year extension. This was known going in, so I see it from the other direction - copyright owners who attempt to extend this term to ludicrous lengths (such as we have today) are effectively stealing from every single person in the country.

      If you want your heirs to benefit after you die, it's your place to provide for that. Why should the government have an interest in making sure your heirs benefit?

      --
      FC Closer
    12. Re:Agree and disagree by theRiallatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is, they want to sell it as a good AND a service. They want you to buy the media and its contents, and lock that down to a particular user/console. They consider this a license to use the media. But if you lose the media, or it's destroyed, they're extremely reluctant to offer up a replacement media for the 'license' you've already purchased. They want you to pay full price, again. What we want is a clear distinction. If I'm buying a license for the CONTENT, I should be able to use it in whatever format I choose. If I'm buying the physical MEDIA (product), I should be able to use it in whatever player I choose, or sell it secondhand if I want (right of first sale).

  6. Digital is different, you get it off the tubes! by tehSpork · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can see some of their point, however I think they're trying to err on the side of the content creator/publisher.

    I still maintain that I should have the right to keep copies of ebooks and music I own on as many of my own digital devices as I please. I can not use it all at once (I can multitask, just not that well), and would have to lend my digital device to a friend in order to break the intent of fair-use (and how many times have you loaned a book or CD to a friend?).

    I think I'll just stick with my personal DRM-Ban and leave it at that. I won't buy anything that employs any form of DRM (with the only exception being Windows, which I purchased then removed WPA and WGA). This includes eBooks, which thanks to Microsoft I have $100 worth or so of ebooks which are locked to an account that I have been locked out of (apparently upgrading one's computer or portable device a couple times each within a 6 year period is abnormal and breaks some sort of fair-use law). It also includes purchasing music downloads and CDs that contain DRM. I don't care if I can remove it, I will not give money to a company that employs those methods of "protecting their copyrights."

    The only way the companies will learn is if you speak with your wallet, the Dollar (or Euro/Pound for you blokes on the other side of the pond) truely is the most basic and effective form of communication. :)

    1. Re:Digital is different, you get it off the tubes! by shawnmchorse · · Score: 2, Funny

      Make sure you don't buy any DVDs either, what with region codes and encryption and such. Laserdiscs are where it's at, anyway. ;-)

  7. The Primary Prerequisite to Progress by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Create more distance between politicians and money. After that, we will see more balance between public and private interests.

  8. British by wbren · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is destined to go nowhere! People won't take them seriously if they keep misspelling words. I mean, who's ever heard of words like "analogue" and "favourite"? Not this red-blooded American!

    --
    -William Brendel
    1. Re:British by Haeleth · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, why do you Americans write "favorite" but not "serios", and "sulfur" but not "fosforus", and "alfa" but not "alfabet", and "aluminum" but not "americum"?

      If there's one thing worse than archaic and illogical spellings, it's half-arsed spelling reform that leaves half the archaic and illogical spellings intact.

  9. Public libraries and P2P have similarities by Morgaine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The British Library does take a fairly balanced view on this subject ("life+70" excepted), but there is one important area where their view is not balanced at all: they believe that libraries are somehow exceptional in their needs. Well they're not.

    Libraries have many roles, but almost none of those roles are exclusive. The three most important ones are collecting, sharing, and archiving for posterity, but these roles are also performed within society as a whole (as a normal part of life and culture), and therefore libraries do not have exclusive need for protections here. We all do.

    P2P is probably the most contentious sharing technology today, yet what P2P'ers do is not significantly different to what libraries do --- ie. provide access to their collections to the public. They're similar not only in function, but also in social neutrality and economic effect: sharing is available to everyone equally, no money is made or taken from the sharing, they both reduce somewhat the sales of the items in question, and they both provide free public promotion for the items as well.

    The role of archiving for posterity is not exclusive to libraries either --- nobody wants to lose their collected works through media deterioration from old age, so being able to make copies and not being at the mercy of DRM is important for everyone, not just libraries. Indeed, passing down our digital collections to our descendents will undoubtedly be a common interest.

    So, while I support what the British Library is saying for the most part, their preoccupation with the needs of libraries sends the wrong message --- we are all in that same boat.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
    1. Re:Public libraries and P2P have similarities by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with most of what you say, except the very last part. It sends exactly the right message. The British Library is raising a serious point about DRM and how it interferes with our legal protections. Of course they are library focussed - that's what they do.

      Do you think they would be taken seriously if they went on an anti-DRM crusade? No - and neither do they want to. They actually use DRM themselves to allow them to publish copyrighted material on the internet. Without the protection it affords (to satisfy individual requests to copyrighted works) they couldn't do that, and users would have to physically visit the library to see much of their stuff.

      They are making the point that even the British Library finds the new technology dangerous to our legal rights, and we should be very careful about allowing those rights to be superceded by technologically enforced contracts. Great message, to the point and relevant. If there are other interest groups with similar messages, speak up!

    2. Re:Public libraries and P2P have similarities by ray-auch · · Score: 3, Informative

      Libraries have many roles, but almost none of those roles are exclusive. The three most important ones are collecting, sharing, and archiving for posterity, but these roles are also performed within society as a whole

      The british library is a national library, and also a legal deposit library (one of only six) under the 2003 Act, and its job is to perform those roles. Others may perform the roles, but it isn't their stated purpose enshrined in law to do so.

      This does make them exceptional. There is a huge difference between saying "DRM is stopping me doing Y" and saying "DRM is stopping me doing Y, which I am required to do by law".

  10. Different times for different things by kyb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IP law should respect the fact that there are many different fields of endevour, and different terms are appropriate for each of them. It's perfectly reasonable that the copyright on a novel should last a pretty long time (I think the author should receive some compensation if it gets made into a film 10 years later for example), but patents on computer related things should last a very short time - the computer industry is changing much faster than the book writing industry, and if the entire industry is held up for 10 years because of one guys patent, that is a very serious detriment to the public good.

    Regardless of what is decided, it seems very obvious to me that the current lengths of these things are far outside what is reasonable. I'd be much more in favour of 20 years for literary/artistic works, and 3 years for patents, with the posibility of a single extension for 5 more years for patents, requiring a large fee (so only patents that are being used get extended).

    That's what I think for IT patents, but longer terms might be more appropriate for slower moving industries.

  11. kind of hard to do by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    money attracts power and power attracts money, inexorably

    money and power will steamroll all laws, morals, decency, justice, fairness, and accountability in order to be with each other, no matter what system of government you devise or imagine

    money and power will find the path of least resistance to get to one another and shortcircuit all of your good intentions

    look at modern china, where 50 years of hardcore communist rhetoric has created... drum roll... the most social darwinistic model of capitalism on this planet right now. with all of the social inequalities that go along with that, abject squalor sandwiched against diamond encrusted bathrooms, modern china would make the robber barons of the gilded ages of victorian times in the usa blush

    money+power: i think it's one of the fundamental forces in physics... along with entropy and taxes and magnetism

    you can't beat it even in glorious goody two shoes canada: look at their recent corruption scandal that recently swept the liberals out of power up there

    i'm not saying it's a good thing, i'm just saying it's pretty formidable force of nature you are contending with rather lightly

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  12. Lifetime plus some is an incentive by old+man+moss · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "To believe that anything beyond lifetime copyright impacts the incentive structure of creators takes some serious suspension of disbelief."

    I'm guessing you are quite young then? I'm over 40 and have 2 children. I write but haven't made a penny at it. Much as I enjoy writing, there is definitely an incentive to "publish" in knowing that if my work becomes popular late in my life (or just after) then my kids will benefit.

    Parents want to provide for their children.

    --
    rt
    1. Re:Lifetime plus some is an incentive by old+man+moss · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Why should for example artists be different?"

      Because often an artist does not make much (or any) money from his/her work until years after it was done.

      I'm not suggesting artists should be paid more than anyone else; just that they (or their children) should be paid.

      Yes, I agree, a fixed term (50 years) would probably be better. But maybe that might encourage well known artists to stockpile work for their kids to publish?

      --
      rt
    2. Re:Lifetime plus some is an incentive by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm over 40 and have 2 children. I write but haven't made a penny at it. Much as I enjoy writing, there is definitely an incentive to "publish" in knowing that if my work becomes popular late in my life (or just after) then my kids will benefit.

      Parents want to provide for their children.


      Then you are a terribly irresponsible parent. As a copyright lawyer, let me point out to you that the odds of your work ever being even slightly valuable economically, are very very small. And then, the work typically is only worth something immediately upon publication in a given medium, with the value rapidly declining (roughly 90% of the lifetime value will be realized in under a year, sometimes in just a few weeks). The odds of creating a work with lasting value, or value long after publication, are astronomical.

      Frankly, you would have better odds of getting money with which to provide for your family by buying lottery tickets.

      If you want to be a good parent, you will have a job, you will carefully invest money, you will have insurance policies, and so forth. You will support government programs that would help as well, should your family hit bad times. These are ordinary, conventional methods of providing for your family that do not rely on tremendous amounts of luck. But they actually work. Better yet, they work for everyone, and not just authors.

      Copyright is probably one of the worst systems imaginable for helping 'widows and orphans' since it is just so damn bad at actually doing it. If you want something that works, look elsewhere. If you want to daydream, and ignore your responsibilities to your family, then by all means, pretend that copyright will ever mean something to them.

      And so long as we're dealing with rational actors, long copyrights aren't an incentive. I don't care for the idea of a copyright system that is meant to appeal to irrational people.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  13. My views by drsmithy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Fundamentally, I believe copyright to be a concept that is broken by design, but that it has taken the "digital age", with its inherently instantaneous, free reproduction capabilities and near-instantaneous, near-free distribution channels to make that obvious.

    With that said, I recognise that copyright is here to stay.

    So, my guidelines for a fair copyright regime:

    * Copyright is recognised as fundamentally an economic tool for artificially assigning value to something that inherently has none (ie: none of this flowery "for the betterment of society" claptrap).
    * Copyright protection for economic purposes becomes an opt-in process (eg: if you want to sell a book or song, you have to register it as a copyrighted work).
    * Length of copyright is linked to a works "ECD". When a work is registered as copyrighted, it must include an "Estimated Cost of Development". Once the owner of the copyright has recorded income from selling the copyrighted work that meets or exceeds the "ECD", the work is no longer subject to protection from non-profit copyright infringement (ie: filesharing and the like). Note that for-profit reproduction (ie: someone else *selling* a copyrighted work) is still a crime (and would be harshly punished).
    * Fraudulent reporting of "ECD" or copyright-related income would be *severely* punished. Upon confirmation of such fraud, the work would immediately enter the public domain and a fine would be issued to the registered copyright holder equal to the submitted "ROI" value PLUS any reported income from the work. Where possible (ie: with proof of purchase), refunds would be issued to anyone who had purchased the work.
    * On the death of the copyright holder, all their copyrighted works enter the public domain.

    1. Re:My views by Ngwenya · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Length of copyright is linked to a works "ECD". When a work is registered as copyrighted, it must include an "Estimated Cost of Development". Once the owner of the copyright has recorded income from selling the copyrighted work that meets or exceeds the "ECD", the work is no longer subject to protection from non-profit copyright infringement (ie: filesharing and the like). Note that for-profit reproduction (ie: someone else *selling* a copyrighted work) is still a crime (and would be harshly punished).

      I sympathise with the goals, but think that the practice you're trying to implement would be extremely difficult. The unintended consequence of such a regime would (I think) be the artificial inflation of ECDs (notwithstanding your next point). Noone would have the appropriate incentive to report true costs - you'd need an extremely rigorous copyright equivalent of the SEC and Sarbanes-Oxley. Hell, Hollywood inflates its costs right now so that it can avoid paying percentage of profits to authors/screenplay writers/etc. I think having an ECD as the sole determinant of copyright duration would make this obscene situation much worse.

      Fraudulent reporting of "ECD" or copyright-related income would be *severely* punished. Upon confirmation of such fraud, the work would immediately enter the public domain...

      The problem here is determining what is a fraudulent assessment of a works costs. If everyone has an incentive to maximise their costs, then how does the appropriate copyright authority determine that they are all out of line - and by how much? You'd need some sort of state appointed copyright regulator (something like the Office of Communications [OfCom] in the UK). Regulators are generally employed, however, where there is, in effect, no free market in goods or services. Think of it as a sort of "surrogate market". You'd have a hard time saying that copyrighted works weren't in abundant supply.

      I like the tone of your idea - that copyright is there to ensure you've got a chance of getting your costs back (NOT a guarantee) plus some reasonable profit for the venture (NOT some obscenely bloated ROI which guarantees you never have to work again). I think I'd simply advocate that one has an exploitation window of 10 years for free, and then an exponentially increasing copyright cost for keeping a work out of the public domain. After 25 years, a work enters the public domain, come what may. The incidence of works which only recover their costs after 25 years of distribution is vanishingly small. I have never understood the logic which says that works will not be attempted unless monopoly distribution rights extend 70 years past the death of the author. How many new works is Elvis producing these days?

      --Ng

  14. Something my copyright prof said by deblau · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Without creators, there would be no new expression, and without distributors, no one would learn from that expression and build on it. Thus, the traditional viewpoint has been that copyright should protect both creators and distributors.

    The term of the copyright doesn't upset this analysis. What does upset it is that with the advent and rapid development of the Internet, distribution is no longer a limiting factor. There is no longer a danger that one's work won't be distributed.[1] Society has solved this issue on its own, independent of copyright laws. We don't need to protect distributors with copyrights any more.

    Furthermore, the economic incentive that copyrights provide to distributors simply isn't justified. While the demand for copyrighted works has increased due to population growth and increased expressiveness, the 'supply' given to the people by increasing Internet bandwidth and ubiquity has exponentially outpaced it. Without artificial regulation (i.e., copyright law), these developments would ordinarily drive profit margins to nothing. Thus the distribution monopoly power becomes Yet Another Pointless Government Subsidy, benefiting a special interest group that isn't even contributing anything particularly worthwhile. Farm subsidies are one thing, they keep the price of bread low. Subsidizing an inefficient alternative to the Internet is pure waste.

    I say end copyright protection for distributors, with the trade-off of guaranteed Internet access for everyone as a new human right. Subsidize libraries and public kiosks for net access to ensure this right. Of course, this shifts the subsidy to ISPs and the 'backbones', but their worth to society is justifiable independent of copyright law.

    [1] One's work may not be watched or heard, but it will always be available for the watching. That's a demand problem, not a supply problem, and it's solved by artists competing for attention in the marketplace. This, in turn, naturally drives up the quality of the art in the eyes of the public, which is a good thing.

    --
    This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
  15. Well well, so was aristocracy a social contract by unity100 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yea, aristocracy was the god-chosen elite who have had the right to hold life or death jurisdiction over the "common" people, and its highest rank was "the king", who held all other as "subjects".

    This was a social contract too. If people had listened to such nonsense ideas likewise your quotation points out, and thought of "long term benefits", there would be no french revolution and we would be still people subject to some "local lord" first, then the elite, then the king. Ah not to mention that all the rights and advancements that the previous 2 centuries have brought wouldnt be forthcoming.

    Same goes for copyright holding. It is something that emulates a loose group of elitism in the world media, some big people who no one can expect to move into except with a very big smile from fate - same as in the days of old aristocracy.

    Again i repeat - NOT all social contracts are beneficial and rightful.

  16. Re:Just abolish it entirely by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 2, Interesting
    What you propose will end "promotional" spending on entertainment. Overnight. This is not a small evolutionary change but a great big revolutionary one. One that I doubt anyone has really thought through all of the consequences of.

    You fail to explain why promotional spending on entertainment will end. Things will not fundamentally change overnight. Content producers/distributors still need to promote their stuff in order to raise awareness and generate sales.

    Sure, it would be nice to get everything for free.

    The idea of abolishing copyright is not about getting things for free. I think this might be the flawed premise that dismisses your entire argument.

    I seriously doubt that something like this will happen in the US and Western Europe without having an economic impact that is completely unforeseen. And it is big and dangerous enough that it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Unless the pirates really do win and start distributing prime-quality content wide enough to put media companies out of business.

    This has already been happening -- in a sense -- in the US and Western Europe for over a decade. The results, so far, have been good...unless you believe the current culture owners who claim trillions of dollars in sales have somehow magically disappeared from the economy entirely because of piracy.

    --
    Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.