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Is Backyard Wind Power Worth It?
eldavojohn wonders: "In the October IEEE Spectrum magazine, I read an article on backyard windmills and their growing feasibility. With the lowest model's price tag, it's about $9,000 and lasts for around 100,000 kilowatt-hours (20 year life), which results in 9 cents per kilowatt-hour. Now, the article mentions that if the market takes off, that price will drop. However, I was wondering what price range the windmills would have to fall to (or the energy rates have to rise to) before I could consider this? Well, the price of the windmills in the article are out of my price range right now. I don't imagine many Americans have $8k-$11k laying around and the current month's rates for energy in my neighborhood are 2.2 cents/kWh for the first 800 kWh and 1.2 cents/kWh after. I was wondering what are your thoughts on being an early adopter of wind energy? Do you think that if enough people bought these windmills, the price per kWh could compete with the local power grid's? Will it ever?"
Because some communities tend to be rather picky about what you put up. Even if it's only slightly visible, some drama queen or snooty neighbour may kick up a fuss about it.
I'd rather go with solar panels, though I'm waiting for a breakthrough in technology (higher output, lower prices). A windmill is too big and too much of an eyesore to be installed in backyards.
The big problem with wind power is that on top of that price, you also have to invest in a huge (and very expensive) energy storage system that can supply your entire energy needs for at least a day when there is little/no wind.
Otherwise you have to figure in the opportunity cost of not investing that $9K. Even in CDs you can get about 3% on that, which means you can withdraw more than $580 a year from it for 20 years, not just $450; that works out to over $0.11 per kWh. As alternative power plant designs become more durable, this kind of calculation becomes more important: a $9,000 windmill that produces 5,000 kWh/year for infinity years instead of twenty sounds like it will produce free energy, but that "free" will really cost you more than $0.05 per kWh when you do the math.
The electric companies factor these sorts of costs into their bill when they build a new power plant. If you don't do the same, you might think you're successfully competing with them when you're really just tricking yourself.
Then don't buy a home where there is a homeowner's association. Sell your home if one gets voted in. Why should the desires of the one automatically outweigh the desires of the many? Especially when the one can simply refuse to play by selling and moving. That's the beauty of the free market: people are free to set up socialist systems such as homeowner's associations within it and you are free to buy into them or not. But you don't have the right to limit the free market by saying people can't do that. Property rights are a deal mutually enforced by property owners, and if other property owners want to say that you have to jump through a flaming hoop into a pile of dog doo before they will honor you property claims, well, what can you do except defend your property yourself.? You want the privilege of being part of a system that defends your property rights? You play by that systems rules, or leave and make your own system. What's that you say? Every place is already owned and encumbered by rules you didn't agree to? Tell that to the vast majority of humans who own no property at all, I'm sure you'll get a lot of sympathy.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
9 average for 20 years is pretty good, considering 20 years of fossil-powered electricity will end up costing you 10x that.
The problem with that logic is that you asume those results to be true. This couldn't be more problematic then ever.
.09/KWH might actualy be .05 depending on the household usage compared to energy produced.
First there is no guarentee that outcome will be true even if this stay exactly the same as it is today.
Second, just because the acerage Joe cannot afford it, doesn't mean power companies cannot. It is more likley that power generating companies could asbsorb the costs and distribute it to people it provides power to while keeping the pricing cheaper overall to each user. Also, if power generating companies pick it up, while likley on a larger scale, it could very well reduce the price for the average joe to implement it themselves. Maybe even to a point wer eit could be cheaper then the power companies rates.
Third, the article/submision doesn't acount for unused power that should go back into the grid. The power companies should be paying for this backflow of energy and it would reduce the costs even more to the average joe. possibly making this
fourth, Even if the average joe does take this alternative energy up, there is no guarentee that 100 years from now, grand kids won't still have problems with lung disease and skin cancer. We have proven a likly conection but as science insist, they conclusion could change with new evidence.
Fith, I take issue with this do it now, we don't care what it will cost you (even if it bankrupts you or starves your children) additude and then instill some scary scenario that could happen If certain other issues are ignored. It is almost as bad as certain tv preachers claiming god will take his life if you don't donate a certain amounts of money to me. Or even these out of state charities claiming to be supporting fallen law enforcment officers and firefighters making statements like "well, if you don't contribute, they will remeber this when you need thier help" (implying the cops won't protect you or firefighters won't help you next time you need them if you don't give them money now).
Also, for those wantig to take it further, this can be applied to global warming and all the scare threats used there too. It might be one reason why so many americans even though admiting global wamring might exist, question either the facts of global warming itself or the purposed remedies. There are quite a few people who belive global warming is happening but refuse to belive the stated causes or the purposed actions to fix it. This doesn't even begin to address those who think this is some concocted problem designed to get people to by from different forces in the enrgy markets. And yes that could be applies to backyard energy sources too.
That's funny, you don't live in the New York snowbelt where you seriously don't see the sun for months at a time (it's just gray during the day) yet you can make a comment implying that the grandparent doesn't know what he's talking about because you get so much sun in the winter in a state that's more than 250 miles away. Go figure.
What happens a few years from now, when some new dramatic improvement in turbine design happens? Or 100% efficent solar panels are invented? Or heck, maybe they even invent portable fusion reactors, who knows what is coming in the future?
If you are amortizing the cost of a windmill over 20 years, this IS a concern. 20 years is a lot of time for technology to significantly improve. Think of how much cars have changed, let alone technology like computers and information networks. Alternative energy sources are a hot thing to invest in lately, and I have a feeling there will be some serious improvements real soon. Maybe if you could amortize the cost in 5 years, it would be a reasonable risk. But 20 years? I can't see how it would be a good idea.
I live in a community without a homeowner's association. Some of my neighbors come from cultures where the standard for maintaining a home differs significantly from typical suburban US standards.
And that should affect you exactly why? I didn't buy my house as an investment- I bought it to live in. What happens on the other side of the fence is none of my business.
When my neighbor began parking his truck in his yard, began storing applicances and garbage in his lawn, installed a new concrete porch without a permit, refused to cut the grass, and ordered a portable storage unit delivered to his house where it has sat in the driveway for more than a year, what is my recourse?
All of that sounds like standard American suburbia to me. NONE of it affects you or your property. Now if you could *prove* damages, there are always the courts. I may have to do this soon to a neighbor who happens to be an old folks home- they take care of their landscaping except for this one tree, which is about to take out my gutters. But I'll give them a few options first, including paying for gutters that are more compatible with the tree, triming the tree to the 12 feet required by the city code, etc.
I'm still not anxious to be a part of an HOA, but there are some advantages.
Most cities do have codes that cover this however. The HOA is just snobery on top of that.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Thats just a stupid comment. To say something like that only reinforces peoples views that enviromentalists are are a bunch of emotional, illogical and completely unscientific people. Because what you just did was scare-mongering, it was NOT rational.
To suggest that the economic feasibility of wind turbines has an effect on your grandkids getting skin cancer and lung disease is absurd. you might as well have simply written "I hate anyone who disagrees with using Eco-power, wont you think of the children!"
A much better post would have been:
Yours: That is the sort of attitude that extingushes the renewable energy movement. Thank you for your demonstration.
Mine: no comment, this is just a dumb comment and doesnt actually prove any point at all.
Yours: I agree expense is a factor,
Mine: While the cost of renewable energy is prohibitively expensive right now we should continue to support this type of research because a time might come when it becomes an affordable and maybe even neccesary option.
Yours: however, in 100 years, your grandkids will curse your mantra "not economical for Joe Average." as their skn cancers flare up, and lung disease eats away at them.
Mine: I'm a little worried about all this global warming stuff. I've heard alot of opinions in every direction, and if we learn that our use of fossil fuels is infact warming the planet, then technologies such as this one might become a neccesity for our children and grandchildren.
Kyle
One thing to understand: its not 9 cents per kwh. You pay the entire $9k up front in 2006 dollars but you get the power back over a 20-year lifespan... In 2007 dollars, 2015 dollars and 2026 dollars... Which even at 5% annual inflation are worth less than half of what 2006 dollars are.
Another: almost nothing with moving parts runs 20 years without maintenance. What will the maintenance on your windmill cost in terms of both dollars and time (which is dollars times your expected hourly wage).
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Few suburban homes are in good locations to produce wind energy. Even if you're in a good location, aside from the issue of creating an eyesore in your neighborhood, your neighbors won't be too happy the next time the wind picks up and you have a 60-80 decibel buzz keeping them up all night.
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Wind energy is far more dependent on location than solar energy. The available annual solar energy in the desert Southwest is only about twice that in Alaska. This means that the geographic variation in electric rates has a greater effect on the viability of a solar electricity system than annual sunlight. But the wind energy available in mountainous areas of the US like the Rockies is more than ten times that available in the Southeast. That's why you see big clusters of windmills in mountain passes and other windy areas, and few if any in typical suburbs.
Also note that your average wind speed does not tell you what you need to know. Available power from the wind goes up as the cube of wind speed, so bursts of strong wind produce more energy than steady light breezes.
So the bottom line is that unless you live in a very windy area, your electric rates are already so low that no form of home power generation is likely to be very cost-effective for you right now. So you have to ask yourself two questions: what you think will happen to your electric rates in the future, and whether solar might make more sense than wind in your area.
All this information is readily available; the Wikipedia article on wind power is as good a place to start as any.
I'm being mean here but there are deliberate blinders going on here, making the vendor, the IEEE spectrum writer and the Slashdot editor forget basic math. The vendor's motive, I understand, but there is no excluse for IEEE writers and slashdot people.
$9,000 for 100,000 khw over 20 years is NOT 9 cents/kwh. Why? Anybody with a mortgage knows that money paid over time is vastly different from money today. The unit presumably delivers 5,000 khw per year or about 13.7 khw per day. So at 7% interest, that's 16.7 cents/kwh, which is more than just round-off error.
And frankly, for the vendor to say it's 9 cents is very close to fraud. The power plants don't amortize without considering the time value of money when they work out the costs.
Another way to think about it. Put the $9,000 in the stock market. Historical rate of return is about 10%. That means you would pull out $900 per year -- while still keeping the principal intact, except for inflation. At California's 13 cents/khw from the grid, that buys you 6900khw, assuming the price stays even. Your wind turnbine gets you only 5000khw. It doesn't pay for itself in 20 years, it never, ever pays for itself, no matter how long it lasts. And you still have the principal when you are done.
I'm all for renewable energy. But I hate it when people also for renewable energy either get stupid or just plain lie to make it seem better than it is.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
The previous poster makes a good (and interesting) point about money spent over time, but he's not also factoring in the fact that power company energy costs are likely to go up dramatically over the next 20 years as oil and other energy sources become more scarce, and environmental factors will also drive up the cost of energy from your power company. I suspect you won't be paying 13c/khw for the next 20 years....
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
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