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Bogus Experts Fight Your Right To Broadband

An anonymous reader writes, "Karl Bode of Broadband Reports takes aim at supposed telecom experts and think tankers who profess to love the 'free market,' but want to ban the country's un-wired towns and cities from offering broadband to their residents. If you didn't know, incumbent providers frequently determine towns and cities unprofitable to serve (fine), but then turn around and lobby for laws that make it illegal to serve themselves (not so fine). They then pay experts to profess their love for a free market and deregulation — unless that regulation helps their bottom line. A simple point: 'Strange how such rabid fans of a free-market wouldn't be interested in allowing market darwinism to play out.'"

24 of 378 comments (clear)

  1. Not really anything new by dada21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you are really a fan of a free market, you'd understand the reality that regulation means that it isn't free. Restrictions mean it isn't free. Taxation means it isn't free. Licensing means it isn't free.

    What we really see here are Statists who use the words "free market" are just pro-State pundits who, as the anonymous reader wrote, are paid to profess support for their employers while sounding pro-freedom.

    This is no different than war supporters who think that soldiers and previous war protect freedoms (they don't). It is no different than neoliberal Senators who think that minimum wage laws protect the freedoms of workers (they don't). It is no different than the Federal Reserve Board of Governors who believe that more liquidity means more freedom for the consumer (sorry, wrong).

    There are two ways to conduct business: competitively, or with the help of the State. Regulations, licensing, taxations, embargoes, tariffs, duties and other "pro-market" structures are "legal" uses of force by the State for one thing and one thing only: to take care of the businesses friendly with the State.

    I love the free market because I love watching markets change to meet the needs of the consumers (demand) as well as the manufacturers (supply). I love seeing both sides of a barter or exchange profit from that exchange, rather than one side gaining and one side losing. The free market is not zero sum: it is mutual gain. This is capitalism. The State-licensed mercantilistic market is not zero sum -- one party loses, one party gains. This is socialism or Western State mercantilism.

    1. Re:Not really anything new by dark_requiem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's clarify this now: a tax-funded (read: theft-funded) broadband setup is not the free market at work. The only way a tax-funded system is comparable to the free market is if all taxed individuals consent. Tax just one person to pay for a service they don't want, need, or use, take money from just one person without their consent, and you're talking about statism, not the free market. The free market does not involve taxation, the free market relies on voluntary consent. This is not the free market versus statism, this is statism versus statism. On the one hand you have the political state working for ISPs to inhibit competition, and on the other hand you have more localized political states robbing citizens. The free market never enters the picture.

    2. Re:Not really anything new by dangitman · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Competitively" is a good thing - because state help shifts the burden of business' poor planning from this business to the taxpayer. There is also no "middle ground" - either you have help or you don't, you succeed by your own merits or have assistance or gimped opponents.

      But what if the State does the opposit of helping - i.e enact regulations that shift the burden from the taxpayer to the private corporation, and make corporations responsible for actions like pollution and product safety? That's not "free" and it's not "helping" - so I guess there must be more than two options, huh?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  2. It is simple by Black+Art · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Goverment helping people or doing nice things for them is Socialism. Socialism is BAD.

    Throwing them to the wolves, however is not Socialism, therefore it must be good.

    --
    "Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
    1. Re:It is simple by dark_requiem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Federal money... What a joke. The federal government steals money from the population, either via taxation or inflation (see: Federal Reserve). I'm not particularly impressed with an organization that's so very generous with money it stole from myself and others.

  3. Market darwinism... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Obviously, no one has an intelligent design for creating new markets where none exist.

  4. Re:What? by Known+Nutter · · Score: 2, Informative

    big company won't serve some small area, fights to keep anyone else from doing so, municipalities, private citizens, the Devil...

    --
    Beware of the Leopard.
  5. Re:Confusion & the 'Free Market' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Congratulations, I have a masters in computer science & you've managed to confuse me."

    Computer science majors are easy to confuse. Just ask them how to ask out a girl.

  6. Bad idea by Spazmania · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nobody wants to hear it but I'll say it anyway: Municipally owned and operated ISPs are a bad idea. No matter how hot your technology is today, tomorrow's technology will be hotter and the municipality won't be able to react. Governments and government contractors never can. Their taxpayer-funded presence in the market will, however, serve as a very effective means of encouraging for-profit companies to go elsewhere.

    I have direct experience with this in the dialup market in Altoona PA in the late '90s. If you weren't happy with the sponsored ISP, tough luck. The small ISPs pulled out when they couldn't compete with Joe Taxpayer. I worked for one of those ISPs.

    You want municipal wireless? Fine, but understand that means you'll ONLY get whatever products and quality of service your town's government is capable of. Servers and static IPs? Ho ho, good luck. And you'll be the last town in the nation to get anything better.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Bad idea by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You want municipal wireless? Fine, but understand that means you'll ONLY get whatever products and quality of service your town's government is capable of.

      The current trend is for municipalities to take bids from private companies. It's the same way a lot of government services operate ... you don't think there's an office at city hall where a guy interviews ironworkers for jobs building bridges, do you? I have faith that at least some of the companies that are interested in building out and servicing municipal wireless networks have the wherewithal to do a good job.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:Bad idea by monkeydo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seems obvious to me. Free marketeers are opposed to monopolies just like everyone else. When governments enter the private sector they behave very similarly to monopolies, because they aren't playing with their own money. This leads to market failure. The article has no logic whatsoever, and the author makes no attempt to examine the logic of the reports that it criticizes.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    3. Re:Bad idea by chill · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you're wrong. You're making the assumption that a municipal wireless service will be a monopoly. As you state in your argument, their service will suck in pretty short order. That is when competitors step in and offer a "premium" service for a fee.

      Free wifi is nice, but if it boils down to dial-up speeds because of sub-standard equipment and implementation, then there will be a market for premium services. I can even envision the advertising "Tired of not being able to use your VoIP phone and computer at the same time? Are you tired of always getting fragged in online gaming because you have the worst ping in your group? Then get off the city service and step up to !"

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  7. Re:Confusion & the 'Free Market' by ocelotbob · · Score: 3, Informative

    Congratulations, you are a victim of state-mandated monopolies. Government regulation got you into this mess; the city signed a contract giving Cox exclusive rights to your town. It is illegal for another provider to string up lines and offer cable service. Don't like it, petition your city council, tell them to a) make such contracts illegal and allow any company that wants to provide cable service.

    --

    Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

  8. Government competing with industry ? free market by Phat_Tony · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Strange how such rabid fans of a free-market wouldn't be interested in allowing market darwinism to play out.

    Government "competing" with industry is not a free market and there is no "market darwinism" to play out. Of the two competitors here, one can confiscate any amount of money they choose from everyone to pay for their service. It doesn't matter if anyone wants it, they need no voluntary "customers." They take whatever money they want and provide whatever service they want.

    Pretending that a company can compete with government, where government forces everyone to pay for their service, is a terrible twist of the word "competition." It's like saying that Wendy's can "compete" with McDonalds if the government passes a new law that everyone has to pay to eat all their meals at McDonalds, and then can show up and get the food they already had to pay for for no additonal charge. In order to go to Wendy's, you have to also buy a McDonalds meal and throw it away. That's not "free market competition."

    Note that I'm not saying anything in this post about whether or not municipalities should be allowed to offer internet access, or (and this is an entirely separate issue) whether or not they should do so. I'm just saying that calling government "competition" with free enterprise companies some sort of free market is absurd. It's not competition when one of the competitors gets to force everyone to "buy" their product, can charge whatever they want, can loose any amount of money without fear of going out of business, can provide any service and quality level with no effect on revenue, and can tax and regulate their competitors. Yes, there are some areas where a company manages to service the same sector government services in a different way, and I'm not saying it's impossible that some people would pay for another internet service even after paying for the government one, especially if the government one is run as badly as many government things are. But even if a lot of people end up paying for both the mandatory government service and a second, private service, it's still not free market competition.

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  9. Universal truth... by Lord+Aurora · · Score: 2, Informative
    FTFA:
    ...the real agenda is simply maximizing revenue.

    My history teacher told us that there are three keys to understanding American history:

    1. Great Britain.

    2. People are stupid.

    3. Follow the money.

    Great Britain doesn't apply here, of course, but the other two are universal...this article is news, but it isn't new. We should expect people to do things entirely for profit. And we should expect people to be blatantly two-faced. Plato or Aristotle or someone like that said that "Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being ruled by those who are stupider." Or something like that. Stupid people + money = corruption, but corruption != surprise.

    --
    The heavens do not fall for such a trifle.
    1. Re:Universal truth... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics, is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."

  10. Re:What? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative
    Can anyone explain to me what this story is actually about, in really simple terms,


    Large ISPs deploy broadband first (only?) in big cities, where there are lots of potential customers in a small area, producing lots of revenue for their investment. They haven't had a lot of interest - yet - in deploying in small towns and out in the spaces between towns.

    Some towns have gotten tired of waiting for some company to decide to wire them for broadband, and have tried to set up their own, local, town-owned-and-operated (or town contracting with some company to operate but town-controlled), tax-subsidized, ISP to get it to happen sooner. This is on the model of other utilities (water, gas, electricity) which some cities operate.

    Some of the cities doing this would be hugely profitable for the big ISPs that haven't gotten around to them yet. So they've gone to the state governments containing those cities and lobbied for (and sometimes gotten) state laws passed to block ALL cities, towns, villages, counties, townships, etc. from setting up their own ISPs. That includes the ones they want to wire and profit from, and the ones that they probably won't be interested in for years or decades.

    Reason Foundation - a free-market think tank - came up with a report suggesting that municipal ISPs are a bad idea.

    The big ISPs are using that to support their lobbying.

    Broadband Reports did an editorial flaming the Reason Foundation report.

    (I only skimmed the editorial and glanced at the report since I'm at work right now. The editorial seems to be ad-hominems attacking the expertese and independence of the people involved in creating the Reason Foundation report, rather than arguments on the issues. But I could be wrong.)

    = = = =

    Personal take: Free market theory suggests that if the big guys leave some market untapped that leaves opportunities for others. For instance: If the population is too spread out for DSL to be profitable or high-bandwidth, it might be a good spot for something else, like a WISP (WiMax or WiFI based), to provide lots of bandwidth with little infrastructure and reap a profit while providing service at decent rates. But a subsidized municipial ISP might provide enough service at low enough rates (suplemented by tax money collected whether you subscribe or not) to kill the opportunity for the WISP and leave the residents with only the municipial system (which would likely be lower quality) and satellite.

    I'm seeing that in Nevada, where some of the smaller towns are being supplied by a WiMax operator. And they're about 20 miles from my place (with a mountain in the way) and aren't interested in hopping the hill to my valley any time soon. I'm left with a 28Kish dialup unless I want to subscribe to a satellite service.

    So I feel for both sides of the argument. B-)
    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  11. You're oversimplifying by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Government helping people in the US is socialism. In fact, any social spending or infrastructure spending in the US is socialism. Paying for grandma's health care is socialism.

    Paying Haliburton and other US contractors to rebuild Iraq--that's not socialism. The discriminator is this--who makes the money? If money is being spread among a bunch of little people, then that's socialism. If money is poured into a few large corporations whose executives make tens or hundreds of millions, then that's the free market. If it's profitable for the rich, it's the free market, but if you're giving money to a single mother of 2, then that's socialism. If you're helping the working poor pay their medical bills, that's socialism, and probably creeping totalitarianism.

    But we can brag on TV about building schools for Iraqis, and that's NOT socialism. But--you guess it--large American corporations have won contracts to rebuild those schools, along with those huge military bases over there. What is an what is not socialism has more to do with who gets to pocket the money than it does with any fidelity to Karl Marx. Care to look into how much federal money was spent rebuilding New Orleans, compared to how much is spent on rebuilding Iraq? If you spend money in New Orleans, then small local firms may get some of the contracts, and the money may be spent, and most importantly earned, locally. If you spend in Iraq, all of the money goes into the coffers of large companies with sweetheart deals, such as Haliburton.

    Small mom-and-pop contractors don't have contacts in the Department of Defense and White House. But if you get big enough, you get to engage in nation-building as part of someone's "vision," like PNAC, and then that isn't socialism, even if you're building the very things that WOULD be socialism if you were building it for Americans back home.

    1. Re:You're oversimplifying by misanthrope101 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sheesh, read what I wrote. If money is spent to rebuild infrastructure stateside, then those goods and services are still being provided, no? Even with government-financed health care, or universal internet access, or any such service, goods and services are still being provided. Yet critics wail "that isn't the job of government--you're making government too big!" even though they'll support the same purchases for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. The only difference I can see between building infrastructure in Iraq and building it stateside is that if you build it overseas the contracts are funnelled to a few big-ticket companies, all of which have ties to the White House and Dept of Defense. If you spend the money stateside, more people benefit, but then you don't have high-paid lobbyists clamoring for infrastructure dollars anymore.

      Yes, I'm aware of the textbook definition of socialism, thanks, but I was referring to the seemingly obvious fact that if you want to fund infrastructure (water plants, hospitals, power plants) with public funds, the same people who have no problem rebuilding Iraq will complain about encroaching socialism. If you're so concerned about it being a "handout" to give a poor single parent money to live, then institute work programs, and then you'll have the goods and services you care about. But no one is interested in any programs whose main beneficiaries are poor people.

      Of course, $100 given to a poor single mother will be pushed right back into the economy, creating just as many jobs as $100 given to Raytheon or some other weapons manufacturer. But everyone acts as if poor people burn their money in little bonfires, forgetting that a dollar spent by a bum is just as good at creating jobs as a dollar spent by a CEO. We basically just worship success, so we funnel money to big corporations as if we need more weapons. Hell, Congress just reauthorized weapons that the DoD said they didn't even need! So yes, the weapons companies are providing goods and services, but if we're buying goods and services we don't really need, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars, then that's morally no different than paying poor people $2000 a month to pick up litter. It's just a wealth redistribution program, only one that gets the nod from the "I love the free market" types, while the other is labeled as "big government." Give me a break.

    2. Re:You're oversimplifying by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Iraqi construction companies should be rebuilding iraq... Financed by the american government.
      The Iraqi construction companies built the country in the first place, and the american government destroyed it. American companies shouldn't be profiting at the expense of Iraq, Iraq should be compensated for their losses and this compensation should go into the local economy.

      --
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  12. Re:All Government Regulation is to serve... by dal20402 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Without (government) regulation, reputable doctors and health care providers would likely form their own associations which would certify that people were actually competent to practice medicine. And what's more, they might actually be run by medical experts rather than politicians and bureaucrats.

    I can't believe after the last 200 years of history that anyone has the gall to make this argument with a straight face.

    We had unregulated medicine. Throughout the 19th century. And what did we get? A bunch of traveling quacks with patent syrup. And very little real healing for anybody.

    Licensing in high-risk professions is good when the licensing bodies are visible to the public. When there are only a bunch of private trade associations competing with one another, consumer confusion is rampant, and plenty of fly-by-night operators are only too happy to make a quick buck. By contrast, the "bureaucrats" in charge of medical licensing today are medical experts. Politicians have nothing to say about the subject.

    To take this as far as possible, are you willing to completely deregulate aviation, getting rid of the FAA and everything it implies... air traffic control, pilot licensing, stringent maintenance standards for aircraft, etc. and farming out those functions to private organizations that you have no way of holding accountable until after you suffer damages? I didn't think so.

    The free market is not the only possible organizing principle of human society, folks, or a god to worship. It's a tool to maximize wealth in the short term, and nothing more. It does an excellent job of that, and gets us nice toys in the process. But it's simply not designed to tackle other, very real human necessities, which we expect as part of the social contract: ensuring people a minimum standard of health and safety, managing community goods sustainably, or even providing a fair structure for market participants and processes. As irritating as government can sometimes be, I really don't want to live in an unregulated society, and if you'd come off your ideological high horse and actually look at facts you wouldn't either.

  13. It's useless to round all fuzzy values to 1 by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If it's a bit State regulated, it's State regulated. If not, it's free.

    If false is the law of the jungle and true is totalitarianism, then whether a particular enterprise is regulated by the state is a fuzzy-valued membership function, not a boolean-valued indicator function. The prohibitions of murder and bank robbery are state regulations; therefore, all business is state regulated to some degree. Your way of defuzzifying this, by rounding all fuzzy values greater than false to true, makes your logic useless.

  14. Free by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 5, Informative
    The thing about "free" markets, is that they don't really exist. Without state intervention, regulation and domination will simply come from within markets. Monopolies, cartels, exclusivity deals that lock out new players, etc. State interference is a small loss of market freedom that prevents vastly greater losses in market freedom. It's no different than personal freedom -- you could try living in a society where the government doesn't intervene at all, but it would take a matter of days for gangs, organized crime, warlords, and other forces to strip your freedom away from you completely. That's why governments are created -- so that the limitations on freedom can be managed and minimized. Doing away with government regulation completely results in vastly greater losses of freedom.

    Frankly, I'm shocked that you would think that states should be forbidden to provide services THAT THE FREE MARKET DOESN'T PROVIDE. Small towns can't get high-speed, because no merchants want to provide it. It's not worth it. But if the people of that state feel that they want that service, and are willing to pay for it, what's wrong with them banding together to set that service up themselves? Should construction firms be able to pass laws preventing you and your neighbour from collaborating to build a tool shed that you can then share? A state is no different from you and neighbour working together -- it simply occurs at a larger scale.

    Finally, state-run businesses don't necessarily interfere with the functioning of competitors. Frequently, governments will create an organization to supply some service that the free market doesn't provide, and then once it has been established, they split it up and sell it off to merchants who are willing to run these services now that they've been established and proven.

    Socialism vs Capitalism isn't a one-or-the-other choice. There are productive balances that can be achieved between total government management of everything and slavery to an oligarchy of industrialists.

    But seriously -- how do YOU think small towns should get services like broadband, water-purification plants, sewer systems, and whatnot?

    Lastly -- "neoliberal Senators who think that minimum wage laws protect the freedoms of workers"?! You sir, are officially a retard. Neoliberalism is exactly the opposite of that. Neoliberalism is the philosophy that YOU are endorsing in your post -- that of total deregulation. Sorry man, but you're a neoliberal. I know, I know, anything associated with the word "liberal" is automatically evil because of that association with freedom, but deal with it.

    1. Re:Free by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 5, Interesting

      1: Socialism and capitalism are coexisting RIGHT NOW. Unless you believe that your ridiculous anarchist fantasy could survive the predations of organized nations using just its privatized, non-communist military. Every nation has a completely communist, authoritarian military. The military produces no goods and subsists entirely off of taxation of the labour of real people. The same goes for the police, and indeed the government itself. Are we socialist? Hardly. You don't have to choose, and anyone who suggests otherwise is just some kind of deranged fanatic that's one pamphlet away from assasinating people and blowing up buildings.

      "If there are enough people in your town that want a broadband connection, they'll get together and cough up the dough to get it there."

      What the hell do you call that, if not a government? It may not be a federal or state government, but it's people organizing and consolidating money and power to accomplish goals. That's government (probably municipal in this case). That's why anarchy never works. People invariably want to gather together to accomplish goals that they couldn't achieve on their own. Rather than waste all their time overseeing every aspect of the project, they appoint a few people to manage it while everyone else just contributes resources and gets back to their own work. Now they have a government and taxes.

      Centuries of ... human nature have made us accept that organization is natural, unavoidable, and overwhelming. The most organized group will, at best, assimilate the rest; as often as not, it will annihilate them.

      I work for a living. I work fucking hard at shitty jobs to pay for school so that I can do better, more valuable jobs at some point. Unlike the cowards I deal with everyday, paying a few taxes doesn't reduce me to fits of crying and impotence. I drive our roads, I use our sewer systems. I benefit from a government that defends the border and fights crime without my needing a personal bodyguard. I benefit from the fact that the government stomps monopolies and prevents them from price-fixing or creating (much) artificial scarcity. We've seen anarchy -- anarchy is the five minutes before a warlord enslaves you and your family and puts you to work picking opium poppies at gunpoint. Anarchy is the window of opportunity for the worst kinds of government to establish themselves. Anarchy is so monstrous that it convinces everyone to put power into the hands of a despotic church or a monarchy, and thanks them for the safety of slavery.

      So you know what? I'll take the minor hassle of a few taxes, and having to fill out a few forms now and then. It's that, or paying ten times as much in protection money to the local organized crime ring that has a monopoly on security and murders anyone that tries to compete.

      The real crux of it is that democracy trumps economics. If 50%+1 of the people say that we should all pay taxes for a health care system, we do it. If 50%+1 of the people say we turn the rest into dog food, we do it. There are balances to prevent rash, insane changes, but ultimately the people can do anything. The people want a national bank to buffer against economic fluctuations (imagine if entire military had to be sold for scrap everytime there was a downturn), so we do it. The people don't want losing a job or becoming too sick to work to be a death-sentence, so we establish a welfare system. The people don't want to have the spend time and money doing background checks into supposed hospitals and doctors everytime they have a medical emergency, so the government regulates hospitals and medical licensing. Are you tyrant enough to say that we should cast aside democracy because of your weak spine in the face of a deduction from your paycheque -- a paycheque that is already being scaled-up to take that deduction into account?

      Only a fanatic suggests that an issue is black-and-white. There are always middle grounds. That's why